Ban on Fox Hunting

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

The whole anti - hunting debate is rifled with arguments based on emotionalism and not on logic.

Any decision by a population & their legislators to introduce Animal Welfare legislation is not just based on logic. It's very hard to come up with a logical reason to ban animal cruelty, unless it is the detrimental effect say on meat production.

For example Ireland donated to the Japanese Earthquake appeal. Japan is a rich country & our relationship with Japan would not change whether we donated or not. We did so because our emotions, our decency, & compassion dictated that we should.

To me, if you replaced the Fox & the Hare with the Rat & the Snake, it would still be cruelty.

gozunda

Yes

John_Rambo wrote: »

Gozunda, I ask you again, are you just a troll or are you an anti hunt person pretending to be (what you think) is a stereo typical hunter to annoy people?

People involved in animals know what meat is and where it comes from.

If you are actually a hunter that has decided to log on and represent all hunters you are not doing them any favours by a long shot. By sneering at people and talking down to them you are misrepresenting people and making hunting less popular with every one of your childish posts.

Now, I happen to enjoy cooking and eating my wild game and fish, I even partake in some shooting the odd time. So, before you turn too many people off hunting all together with your patronising comments will you do me a favour and shut up?

John - You are being both rude and abusive. I can only take from your bias you are exactly what you accuse me of being. Repeating the same comments and gathering claps from anti hunters is doing nothing for any discussion. So drop it. You are welcome to your warped (in my opinion) ideas. I have commented on the the phenomenon of anthropomorphism. There are many research papers out there that discuss the reality of this in the formation of emotional creationism in childhood. It is used to sell films, alternative reality and fantasy products and its has been shown to play a role in adul mores and beliefs. I didn't create the current brand of extreme vegetarians who wish to release all farmed animals into the wild, or those against any wildlife management on the basis that it is not a nice thing to do.

People involved in meat know where it is coming from - agreed. Though how many people could actually deal with killing their own food and preparing it for eating? I too enjoy hunting Preparing and cooking my own food - at least I can do this for myself and not hide behind purchasing pre prepared food that carries no perceived "guilt"

Whispered

Yes

not hide behind purchasing pre prepared food that carries no perceived "guilt"

+1. I think we would have many more veggies in the world if people had to kill and prepare their own meat. However I would love to know how the discussion about fox hunting has become a discussion about where meat comes from. I think we can all agree that killing for food and killing for sport are not really comparable for most people.

gozunda

Yes

Whispered wrote: »

+1. I think we would have many more veggies in the world if people had to kill and prepare their own meat. However I would love to know how the discussion about fox hunting has become a discussion about where meat comes from. I think we can all agree that killing for food and killing for sport are not really comparable for most people.

Whispered - you know you are probably right - I guess a lot of people would shirk from having to prepare their own meat.

Ref banning fox hunting - I think the comments are with to do with the perceived notions of killing of animals whether wild or farmed

Fox hunting is not about killing for "sport". This term is most used by the media and anti hunting groups. Fox hunting is about vermin population management.

I find most people are happy not to think about where there food comes from but will get quite upset if they actually see someone killing a rabbit for the pot.

Personally I would prefer to face what I hunt to eat than buy faceless soya products grown in monocultures on cleared rainforest by multi national companies.

The same goes for hunting to manage wild populations for population management purposes - I would prefer not to hire rentakill etc.

Cherry Blossom

John_Rambo wrote: »

Gozunda, I ask you again, are you just a troll or are you an anti hunt person pretending to be (what you think) is a stereo typical hunter to annoy people?

+1 on the basis that people who actually fox-hunt know what dogs are used .

gozunda

Yes

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

+1 on the basis that people who actually fox-hunt know what dogs are used .

Please elaborate?

fatmammycat

gozunda wrote: »

Whispered - you know you are probably right - I guess a lot of people would shirk from having to prepare their own meat.

Ref banning fox hunting - I think the comments are with to do with the perceived notions of killing of animals whether wild or farmed

Fox hunting is not about killing for "sport". This term is most used by the media and anti hunting groups. Fox hunting is about vermin population management.

I find most people are happy not to think about where there food comes from but will get quite upset if they actually see someone killing a rabbit for the pot.

Personally I would prefer to face what I hunt to eat than buy faceless soya products grown in monocultures on cleared rainforest by multi national companies.

The same goes for hunting to manage wild populations for population management purposes - I would prefer not to hire rentakill etc.

Ara crap. Vermin control my backside. Good shooting and a good shooter controls population far more efficiently. Hunting is very much for sport. I used to ride out myself as a kid, being the horse obsessed sort, until I grew up a bit and realised how mindlessly cruel it is. You're a dab hand a moving the goal posts around, but you're like every other person who engages in something because they want to but can't admit that is the crux of the issue.
I have nothing but respect for a person who goes out and shoots and dresses their dinner from the field, it is arguably a FAR less traumatic end to an animal than the slaughter house, but you dribbling on about fox hunting being anything other that an outdated past time is beyond stupid. Drag hunts, point-to-points, simple hacking- there's endless fun to be had on horse back without ripping a terrified animal apart at the end of it.

Cherry Blossom

gozunda wrote: »

Please elaborate?

Any of the hunts I've seen use mostly or all Kerry Beagles. The term 'hound' means a lot of things in terms of fox-hunting, it doesn't mean Kennel Club, breed standard adhered to pure-breed foxhound.

doctor evil

Yes

fatmammycat wrote: »

without ripping a terrified animal apart at the end of it.

I'm pretty sure the fox is torn apart/eaten by the hounds after it is dead, why mention the words torn apart if not for emotional bias?

FH may not control the total number of foxes but it takes away those who are likely to be only able to go after easy targets (too old/young or terminally stupid)

doctor evil

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Any responsible poultry keeper will put the animals away at night in a secure fox proof house.

Foxes can visit during the day and will keep checking for any possible fault to get in, they will also dig. I see it with the foxes in my suburban area, they will go along the road and checkout each house.

gozunda

Yes

fatmammycat wrote: »

Ara crap. Vermin control my backside. Good shooting and a good shooter controls population far more efficiently. Hunting is very much for sport. I used to ride out myself as a kid, being the horse obsessed sort, until I grew up a bit and realised how mindlessly cruel it is. You're a dab hand a moving the goal posts around, but you're like every other person who engages in something because they want to but can't admit that is the crux of the issue.
I have nothing but respect for a person who goes out and shoots and dresses their dinner from the field, it is arguably a FAR less traumatic end to an animal than the slaughter house, but you dribbling on about fox hunting being anything other that an outdated past time is beyond stupid. Drag hunts, point-to-points, simple hacking- there's endless fun to be had on horse back without ripping a terrified animal apart at the end of it.

Minus your implied rudeness this is your opinion and you are welcomed to it. No matter how misguided you are with regard to fox hunting - I would retake your adult self for a proper experience of what fox hunting is actually about.

gozunda

Yes

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Any of the hunts I've seen use mostly or all Kerry Beagles. The term 'hound' means a lot of things in terms of fox-hunting, it doesn't mean Kennel Club, breed standard adhered to pure-breed foxhound.

I would advise you to check the IMFHA website. All the hunts within a 100 km radius of me are FOXHOUNDS. Could you provide a list of the hunts you know of with Kerry Beagles please

fatmammycat

doctor evil wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the fox is torn apart/eaten by the hounds after it is dead, why mention the words torn apart if not for emotional bias?

FH may not control the total number of foxes but it takes away those who are likely to be only able to go after easy targets (too old/young or terminally stupid)

You're 'pretty sure'? Have you ever seen what is left of a fox after the hounds catch it? They don't eat it, it's torn apart, reduced to a mess of guts and skin. I remember a whipper-in once trying to block me seeing a kill, telling me that the fox dies instantly, load of crap. Dead animals don't make sounds like that and it was one of the reason the scales finally fell from my eyes DESPITE the fact that I actually loved riding out.
As to your other part, something is either for efficient population control- as the argument is used- or it is not, pretending that only the very unwell and idiotic foxes are caught is nonsense and panders to the 'oh look we're doing a service to the animals really' claptrap foxhunters like to spout because they haven't the balls to come out and say 'you know what I don't actually give a damn about the fox, I just like hunting'.
One good hunter and one high powered lamp can make some inroad into population control, minus terrorising the animal first.

fatmammycat

gozunda wrote: »

Minus your implied rudeness this is your opinion and you are welcomed to it. No matter how misguided you are with regard to fox hunting - I would retake your adult self for a proper experience of what fox hunting is actually about.

Don't bother, I didn't expect you to address anything I wrote either. I'm not the misguided one here, I'm the one brave enough to put aside a passion and see it for the cruel act it piggy-backs on.

gozunda

Yes

fatmammycat wrote: »

You're 'pretty sure'? Have you ever seen what is left of a fox after the hounds catch it? They don't eat it, it's torn apart, reduced to a mess of guts and skin. I remember a whipper-in once trying to block me seeing a kill, telling me that the fox dies instantly, load of crap. Dead animals don't make sounds like that and it was one of the reason the scales finally fell from my eyes DESPITE the fact that I actually loved riding out.
As to your other part, something is either for efficient population control- as the argument is used- or it is not, pretending that only the very unwell and idiotic foxes are caught is nonsense and panders to the 'oh look we're doing a service to the animals really' claptrap foxhunters like to spout because they haven't the balls to come out and say 'you know what I don't actually give a damn about the fox, I just like hunting'.
One good hunter and one high powered lamp can make some inroad into population control, minus terrorising the animal first.

From what you have said here I dont believe that you have actually ever hunted....

fatmammycat

LOL I couldn't care less believe, this is just more goal post moving so it probably suits you to say or think that. Oh it couldn't possible be true, oh no. People don't change, oh no. I must be lying.
I've seen more idiocy out on hunts than I care to talk about, eegits riding and pulling the mouths off green horses, more eegits beating the arse off ill-suited cobs, hounds stamped on and kicked and falls and spills a plenty, but oh no, a screaming fox, that couldn't possibly happen.
You can't admit that you just like what you do, you keep trying to dress it in different explanations and excuses.

gozunda

Yes

fatmammycat wrote: »

LOL I couldn't care less believe, this is just more goal post moving so it probably suits you to say or think that. Oh it couldn't possible be true, oh no. People don't change, oh no. I must be lying.
I've seen more idiocy out on hunts than I care to talk about, eegits riding and pulling the mouths off green horses, more eegits beating the arse off ill-suited cobs, hounds stamped on and kicked and falls and spills a plenty, but oh no, a screaming fox, that couldn't possibly happen.
You can't admit that you just like what you do, you keep trying to dress it in different explanations and excuses.

Personally I have great admiration for the hunts that I have gone out with. To a fault they were the most professional, well organised and polite grouping of people that I have encountered to date. Considering the is no commercial motive, hunts provide an invaluable local service for wildlife management in rural areas. Yes sometimes there are accidents involving animals and riders but there are accidents every day if every other sphere of human endeavour... What I know of hunts have a strict hunt etiquette. Anyone not adhering to this is likley to be sent home. btw I have never never encountered a "screaming" fox. I believe this is just another example of the emotionalism added for argument emphasis.

Cherry Blossom

gozunda wrote: »

I would advise you to check the IMFHA website. All the hunts within a 100 km radius of me are FOXHOUNDS. Could you provide a list of the hunts you know of with Kerry Beagles please

http://www.imfha.com/

When the IMFHA refers to the term foxhound, they are refering to dogs used to hunt foxes as live quarry, not the KC breed name :rolleyes:. Go on to their website and learn something from it yourself instead of posting it as a source of your mis-information.

Most famous amongst these packs is probably the Scarteen Hounds of Tipperary/Limerick. Known as "the Black and Tans", this pack comprises 23-inch pure-bred Kerry Beagles.

Beagles and foxhounds are similar in appearance but beagles are smaller. They are both judged in the same way.

These are quotes directly from the IMFHA site, I cannot give you a link for hunts that use Kerry Beagles because as far as the IMFHA/the hunts themselves and etc. etc. are concerned they hunt foxes so they are registered as foxhounds regardless of what breed or cross breeds the dogs are.

gozunda

Yes

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

http://www.imfha.com/

When the IMFHA refers to the term foxhound, they are refering to dogs used to hunt foxes as live quarry, not the KC breed name :rolleyes:. Go on to their website and click on the link for hound show 2010.

These are quotes directly from the IMFHA site, I cannot give you a link for hunts that use Kerry Beagles because as far as the IMFHA/the hunts themselves and etc. etc. are concerned they hunt foxes so they are registered as foxhounds regardless of what breed or cross breeds the dogs are.

This quote was given before - and requires to be quoted in context. - there is just one "kerry beagle" pack registered with the MFHA

The rest are Foxhounds etc....

For information on beagles I will refer you to the HAI website you can check the register for the different types of packs if you wish

Btw this convesration is divergent on the this Thread " Ban on Foxhunting". I recommend you do your own research on this subject and stop trying to derail the post again.

John_Rambo

gozunda wrote: »

John - You are being both rude and abusive

Report me or dry your eyes.

gozunda wrote: »

I too enjoy hunting Preparing and cooking my own food - at least I can do this for myself and not hide behind purchasing pre prepared food that carries no perceived "guilt"

So can I, Bully for us, big swing. Now. I ask, sorry beg you to stop acting like a condescending tit when representing hunters, you are making the sport unpopular... I don't have a problem with your beliefs, I have a problem with the awful, snobbish, ham fisted, amateur way you are defending it.

Actually fook it, you are a fox hunter? You are keeping an anti fox hunting thread very much alive. A thread that has a pole where more people want it banned than don't. Keep it up! Fan the flames! Fook it up for everyone so you can have your smart arse comments! Keep the thread going till it becomes a hit on google and everyone will say "oh, fox hunter are dicks, sure look at that guy gozunda, I will vote against it"

Cherry Blossom

gozunda wrote: »

This quote was given before - and requires to be quoted in context. - there is just one "kerry beagle" pack registered with the MFHA

Well here it is in the context of the paragraph immediately before it and the one it is contained in.

During the nineteenth century the sport of foxhunting began to develop into the structured organisation that exists today. In the earlier years, packs of hounds belonged to local families and disputes occasionally arose over hunt boundaries or their respective hunting countries. Families such as the Nicholsons of Meath, the O'Driscolls of West Cork, the McCalmonts of Kilkenny, the Filgates of Louth and the famous Ryans of Scarteen, still survive to this day and have had strong connections with foxhunting in Ireland . In time, these hunts developed into the county packs that exist today and now there are few counties which do not have a pack of foxhounds affiliated to the I.M.F.H.A. Collectively these hunts are the largest single employer amongst the associations which represent hunting with hounds.



Most famous amongst these packs is probably the Scarteen Hounds of Tipperary/Limerick. Known as "the Black and Tans", this pack comprises 23-inch pure-bred Kerry Beagles. They are unique and have been in the possession of the Ryan family for over 300 years. The Muskerry Hunt is the oldest pack in the country having been established in 1743, while the Duhallow is the oldest pack with continuous record having been established in 1745. The Kildare Hounds have records to show that a hunt club existed in Kildare as far back as 1766. Other hunts with a rich and long tradition include the Ballymacad Hunt centred around Oldcastle in Co. Meath who celebrated their bicentennial in 1997 and the Kilkenny Hunt, the oldest county pack in the country, also established in 1797.

There isn't even a single a reference to the term 'foxhound' in that entire passage. It says the Black and Tans are unique, it does not say they are the only Beagle pack, they aren't.

gozunda wrote: »

Btw this convesration is divergent on the this Thread " Ban on Foxhunting". I recommend you do your own research on this subject and stop trying to derail the post again.

Backseat modding is also against the forum rules and is divergent on this thread but your right, I should probably go and post about backyard rescues somewhere completely inappropriate instead.

gozunda

Yes

John_Rambo wrote: »

Report me or dry your eyes.
So can I, Bully for us, big swing. Now. I ask, sorry beg you to stop acting like a condescending tit when representing hunters, you are making the sport unpopular... I don't have a problem with your beliefs, I have a problem with the awful, snobbish, ham fisted, amateur way you are defending it.

Actually fook it, you are a fox hunter? You are keeping an anti fox hunting thread very much alive. A thread that has a pole where more people want it banned than don't. Keep it up! Fan the flames! Fook it up for everyone so you can have your smart arse comments! Keep the thread going till it becomes a hit on google and everyone will say "oh, fox hunter are dicks, sure look at that guy gozunda, I will vote against it"

John -once gain you are being rude and abusive. Instead of making a show of yourself why dont you post your own ideas on hunting if you are what you claim to be. If published research is snobbish blah blah etc then I guess its your lack education and manners to be able to tell fact from diatribe. What is your problem with debate anyway? Are you afraid to defend your own beliefs rather than having a go at other posters? Maybe you can encourage some of your anti hunting friends to vote the other way? Personally if I came across you as a hunter I wouldn't give you the time of day therefore I will not reply to any more of your abusive posts.

gozunda

Yes

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Well here it is in the context of the paragraph immediately before it and the one it is contained in.

There isn't even a single a reference to the term 'foxhound' in that entire passage. It says the Black and Tans are unique, it does not say they are the only Beagle pack, they aren't.

Ok I will reply one more because I am being polite...

In time, these hunts developed into the county packs that exist today and now there are few counties which do not have a pack of foxhounds affiliated to the I.M.F.H.A. Collectively these hunts are the largest single employer amongst the associations which represent hunting with hounds.
Most famous amongst these packs is probably the Scarteen Hounds of Tipperary/Limerick. Known as "the Black and Tans", this pack comprises 23-inch pure-bred Kerry Beagles. They are unique and have been in the possession of the Ryan family for over 300 years. The Muskerry Hunt is the oldest pack in the country having been established in 1743, while the Duhallow is the oldest pack with continuous record having been established in 1745. The Kildare Hounds have records to show that a hunt club existed in Kildare as far back as 1766. Other hunts with a rich and long tradition include the Ballymacad Hunt centred around Oldcastle in Co. Meath who celebrated their bicentennial in 1997 and the Kilkenny Hunt, the oldest county pack in the country, also established in 1797.

Ref LINK

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Backseat modding is also against the forum rules and is divergent on this thread but your right, I should probably go and post about backyard rescues somewhere completely inappropriate instead.

I am quoting what was posted. Well done for breaking the terms and conditions...

Hellrazer

John Rambo and Gozunda--you two need to calm it down a bit.

Gozunda--John Rambos comments in my mod opinion are relevant.However thay are coming across as quite aggressive and abusive BUT you are giving as good as you are getting.

Now calm it down or the two of you can take a little break from the forum.

John_Rambo

gozunda wrote: »

why dont you post your own ideas on hunting if you are what you claim to be.

I have done that already.

It's how you do it, accusing people of being ill educated, skating in thin ice, rescue centers being backyard, desperate, you are sniping, bitching, accusing, sneering, you are laughing at people etc...

You may be the best hunter in the world.

You are just awful at defending it.

You are annoying.

You are showing hunters up in a bad light.

You are giving people a reason to hate hunters.

Stop.

Edit....

Warning heeded Mod, was typing as you were.

Hellrazer

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Backseat modding is also against the forum rules and is divergent on this thread but your right, I should probably go and post about backyard rescues somewhere completely inappropriate instead.

Adrenalinejunkie--just in case you missed this a couple of pages back--Please dont go down this road.

Heres my warning to DD and Gozunda about using previous warnings to get a point across.

Hellrazer wrote: »

Gozunda this is the type of sniping Ive just referred to in the TV3 thread.
I was just typing that as this was posted.
Now quit it.Discodogs warnings are not your concern and should not be used in your arguing your point.

Cherry Blossom

gozunda wrote: »

Ok I will reply one more because I am being polite...

Missed that one, (edt: the 'foxhound'reference) but anyway all it does is prove that for purposes of the IMFHA a hound used to hunt foxes on horse back is referred to as a 'foxhound' regardless of breed.

Mad as a box of frogs! :rolleyes:

I have to say when you first started posting here, I thought, at last a person capable of putting forward a logical reasoned arguement on the 'for' side of the fox-hunting debate which is always lacking in this forum, it didn't last very long, should have quit while you were ahead, I'm done clicking on hunting threads now . Over and out.

gozunda

Yes

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Missed that one, (edt: the 'foxhound'reference) but anyway all it does is prove that for purposes of the IMFHA a hound used to hunt foxes on horse back is referred to as a 'foxhound' regardless of breed.
.

Thanks AJ - the terminology becomes evident once you begin to understand what fox hunting is really about

TippFan77

Further to this and other debates re fox hunting, coursing etc on Boards.ie, a leading campaigner against these activities has just passed away. The Irish Times today has a big obituary:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/obituaries/2011/0409/1224294304445.html

Tanya1988

Snip.That doesnt add to the debate.