Ban on Fox Hunting

Worztron

TippFan77 wrote: »

Further to this and other debates re fox hunting, coursing etc on Boards.ie, a leading campaigner against these activities has just passed away. The Irish Times today has a big obituary:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/obituaries/2011/0409/1224294304445.html

RIP Mr. Richard Power.

gozunda

Yes

From a working agricultural point of view I dont understand why fox hunting should ever be banned when foxes are classified as vermin.

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

From a working agricultural point of view I dont understand why fox hunting should ever be banned when foxes are classified as vermin.

Classified by who ?. Vermin isn't a legal term. It's a word used to mean an animal that is not on a protected list. For example posters here have said that it is illegal to release a fox, because it is classed as vermin, which is totally untrue.

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Classified by who ?. Vermin isn't a legal term. It's a word used to mean an animal that is not on a protected list. For example posters here have said that it is illegal to release a fox, because it is classed as vermin, which is totally untrue.

oh deary me....oh yes the "fox" is classified as "Vermin"

The 1976 Wildlife Act provided an amendment to sections 9, 21, 22, 23 and 58 of the Forestry Act of 1946 which states that

Each of the following shall be vermin for the purposes of this section
(a) any wild bird which is not a protected wild bird within the meaning of the Wildlife Act

(b) Any wild animal (other than a bird) which is not a protected wild animal within the meaning of that Act

Under the 1976 Wildlife Act the fox is NOT a protected wild animal and is legally defined under the 1946 forestry Act as VERMIN.


The fox is also refered to as vermin in the DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACT, 1966 (RABIES ORDER, 1976.)

In short the fox is officially classed as vermin and the term vermin does in fact appear in the 1976 Wildlife Act.

As to a "legal" term? It is defined within various official statutes of the Irish Statute Book and would therefore be a correct term with regard to a "legal" definition.


So as stated - From a working agricultural point of view I dont understand why fox hunting should ever be banned when foxes are classified as vermin ( "vermin" being defined as wild animals that cause damage to or predate on domestic livestock and have no other natural predators.)

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

oh deary me....oh yes the "fox" is classified as "Vermin"

So as stated - From a working agricultural point of view I dont understand why fox hunting should ever be banned when foxes are classified as vermin ( "vermin" being defined as wild animals that cause damage to or predate on domestic livestock and have no other natural predators.)

I am fully aware of the 1976 Act which, in it's definitions page does not define "vermin" - it does explain the meaning of words such as wildlife !.

So by your definition rats are not vermin, neither are rabbits or pigeons. Things have moved on a great deal since 1946. We now recognise the importance of apex predators, so much so that some countries are reintroducing them.

You see the fox as an animal that can take poultry, if allowed to. You ignore that fact that the Fox predates on rabbits & rats thereby reducing vermin.

No one has ever suggested that the shooting of foxes could be banned. However chasing foxes to the point of exhaustion is a different matter.

Worztron

Snip.Thats trying to incite an argument here.

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

I am fully aware of the 1976 Act which, in it's definitions page does not define "vermin" - it does explain the meaning of words such as wildlife !.

So by your definition rats are not vermin, neither are rabbits or pigeons. Things have moved on a great deal since 1946. We now recognise the importance of apex predators, so much so that some countries are reintroducing them.

You see the fox as an animal that can take poultry, if allowed to. You ignore that fact that the Fox predates on rabbits & rats thereby reducing vermin.

No one has ever suggested that the shooting of foxes could be banned. However chasing foxes to the point of exhaustion is a different matter.

It remains that foxes are classified inter alia as Vermin in the 1976 wildlife Act and the 1946 forestry Act which remains active legislation.

Btw semantics are not relevant here. Discusion is about foxes. Rats and pigeons? Yes they are vermin. Pigeons cause damage to crops and rats
ditto and predate on domestic livestock if you wish to divert topic.

There is no naturally occurring apex predator for foxes so yes control is necessary. Again didn't mention shooting - I like shooting too but it I'd not the only control method. As patiently explained earlier foxes are not chased "to the point of exhaustion". You are of course welcome to your opinion however in my opinion which includes many years of experience you are blatantly wrong

getz

Cleaning up the thread.

Worztron

getz wrote: »

very true,mahatma gandhi..you can tell how civilized a nation is by the way it treats its animals.

Yes. The full quote from Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

homerhop

Yes

getz wrote: »

very true,mahatma gandhi..you can tell how civilized a nation is by the way it treats its animals.

Please show me one country that does not have cases of animal cruelty in some shape or form? Guess the whole world is very uncivilised.:rolleyes:

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

There is no naturally occurring apex predator for foxes so yes control is necessary.

Keep your hens in & let the fox get rid of your vermin - just as nature intended. Nature will control the foxes just as it done for thousands of years.

gozunda wrote: »

As patiently explained earlier foxes are not chased "to the point of exhaustion". You are of course welcome to your opinion however in my opinion which includes many years of experience you are blatantly wrong

So the fox just decides to not run any more . Your experience, as a hunter, might be seen as somewhat biased. I have no problem if a wild animal is killed out of absolute necessity but in reality this is a rare occurrence. Fox hunting, Stag hunting & Coursing are pure entertainment for a few that disregard the views of many.

In Stag hunting & Coursing, animals are terrified but not killed & these "sports" are rightly condemned in many countries. Fox hunting both terrifies & kills so one could argue that it is even worse.

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

Please show me one country that does not have cases of animal cruelty in some shape or form? Guess the whole world is very uncivilised.:rolleyes:

Most countries now have way better animal protection laws than we do. Of course cruelty occurs but in most countries it is a crime & often gets prosecuted.

Ireland hasn't even signed the European convention from 20 years ago !. Most countries are moving on from just cruelty law & onto welfare law. Our nearest neighbours have all introduced animal welfare acts. We are still using British law that is now exactly 100 years old !.

You can't entirely stop cruelty crime but you can legislate against it & enforce it. We do neither.

getz

i know mr fox is very good in picking flattened dead rabbits off the road,i often drive from my place to fleetwood in the early hrs of the morning,and the roads are littered with dead rabbits,by 10 am on the drive back you do not see many left, the excuse of hunting them with dogs because of rabies is a joke,when was the last time you have you read of a fox in the UK or ireland with rabies ?.and if they had ,would you use dogs to hunt them down

Traumadoc

Is angling considered a blood sport?

Just curious about peoples attitude to fishing as a past time?

homerhop

Yes

For a man who is so openly opposed to coursing you seem to take great pleasure in the idea of coursing humans :rolleyes:.

homerhop

Yes

getz wrote: »

the excuse of hunting them with dogs because of rabies is a joke,when was the last time you have you read of a fox in the UK or ireland with rabies ?.and if they had ,would you use dogs to hunt them down

Where has rabies been mentioned anywhere else in this thread?

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

...
You can't entirely stop cruelty crime but you can legislate against it & enforce it. We do neither.

Hunting foxes is LEGAL. It is not a crime. There is no legislation to enforce. Anti hunting groups are not judge and jury and despite what they often believe they are not the police. These kind of responses are an incitement to hatred and not productive to the discussion.

Hellrazer

Ive removed a couple of posts that I feel are trying to stir things up.Can we leave these type of comments out of the discussion.

getz

homerhop wrote: »

Where has rabies been mentioned anywhere else in this thread?

365

gozunda

Yes

getz wrote: »

365

Blatantly out of context. It is relevant with regard to references as foxes as vermin. Please reread post 365.

getz

gozunda wrote: »

Blatantly out of context. It is relevant with regard to references as foxes as vermin. Please reread post 365.

i just do not understand your point,the fox is referred as vermin [under the updated rabies order 1976] the thread is would you like to see a ban on on fox hunting in ireland,if the excuse i hunt the fox because it is vermin and carries rabies hunting them with dog is very dangerous,

gozunda

Yes

getz wrote: »

i just do not understand your point,the fox is referred as vermin [under the updated rabies order 1976] the thread is would you like to see a ban on on fox hunting in ireland,if the excuse i hunt the fox because it is vermin and carries rabies hunting them with dog is very dangerous,

DD was under the impression that foxes weren't classified as vermin, ( see post 364) where in fact they are classified under this term in a number of Irish Statutes (one of which is the Dangerous Diseases Act, the others been the 1946 Forestry Act and the 1974 Wildlife Act. So yes the term "vermin" is correct when describing a fox.

getz

gozunda wrote: »

DD was under the impression that foxes weren't classified as vermin, ( see post 364) where in fact they are classified under this term in a number of Irish Statutes (one of which is the Dangerous Diseases Act, the others been the 1946 Forestry Act and the 1974 Wildlife Act. So yes the term "vermin" is correct when describing a fox.

i am lucky to live on a wild life sanctuary in the UK and we have over 200 canada geese on the lake at any time,they are also classed as vermin when off the sanctuary, so there is always some hunter shooting them when they fly off the sanctuary ,its very upseting to see some of these birds flapping about the lake with gunshot wounds,

doctor evil

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

just as nature intended.

Nature is red in tooth and claw. Humans have been hunting and using dogs to hunt for thousands of years, just as evolution and nature intended. The reasons and why fors make no absolutely no difference to the prey, a swift kill does.

To be more pedantic the ecostystem is now so 'altered' and has been for so long that people can no longer just let nature get on with it. This is in a worldwide context.

To let nature proceed as it intended would allow for plague and famine to go unchecked.

John_Rambo

John_Rambo wrote: »

Are you an anti hunt activist pretending to be a sneering, snide, obnoxious hunter to gain numbers? If you are, you are doing a fine job.

Since you joined the debate gozunda the votes for banning fox hunting has risen. The amount of votes that want it to stay has unchanged.

Just thought you should know that.

You are either a clever anti or a dumb hunter.

gozunda

Yes

John_Rambo wrote: »

Since you joined the debate gozunda the votes for banning fox hunting has risen. The amount of votes that want it to stay has unchanged.
Just thought you should know that.
You are either a clever anti or a dumb hunter.

Dear John - well thank you very much for that...so interesing really ....what can I say!

These made up facts and spoutings are truely full of rubbish and bile. However having thought about where these are really coming from, I am interested in what you actually mean when you keep repeating "clever anti or dumb hunter" What have these spoutings really got to do with this discussion, when that which you post only serves to disrupt and stir up trouble?

Now do bare with me while I give some real facts about "the Votes"....

The voting in this thread has remained remakably consistant from the begining of the thread with an average of approx. 26.5 posts in favour of a ban over the status quo. For clarity there has been a near equal variation in the number of votes for the ban and against the ban over the same time period.

There has been some small variation in the actual number of votes cast. For example on the 24/2/2011 the vote was 101 to 77 for a ban. - a difference of 24 votes.
Tonight that difference is just marginally higher at 156 to 127 for a ban - a difference of 29 votes. There are just 5 votes between these two dates and they do not make for any significant statistical difference in the vote total - in fact there is just over 1 percent difference in the voting ratios between these dates. Wooo big difference!

24/2/2011 votes against =127 (44.8% of total) 13/04/2011 Votes against = 77 (43.2% of total)

24/2/2011 votes for = 156 (55.1% of Total) 13/04/2011 Votes for = 101 (56.7% of total)


The situatiuon of the poll in the Animal and Pet forum is quite likely to maintain the vote at this ratio for the forseable future. It doesnt take any expert to figure out why that might be...

Btw I dont post this for your benefit, as I'm sure you wont let actual facts ever stand in your way.

The tripe posted in post 386 is just another little clue in an obvious motivation that you are in fact that which you accuse others of being...
I quote some previous posts and have extracted from the spoutings the following nuggets...

John_Rambo wrote: »

...
I'm not crazy about the idea of hunting foxes, but I can see why people do it, I don't like the cruelty of digging for foxes, I don't understand it....

- I would never have guessed!

John_Rambo wrote: »

...I am not a hunter at all. .

Really...

Discodog wrote: »

Bugger I have just thanked John & he's a hunter

Errrhh? no John Rambo is not a hunter See above....

Reviewing many other posts you have put yourself up as a hunting expert - when in fact you know diddley squat. Even Discodog took it that you were posing as a big He Man Hunter and you certainly didn't make any effort to correct this misapprehension.

John look in the mirror - what do you see? - The cartoon is a picture of what you really are - a joke "hunter", quite funny but ultimely very very sad..

John_Rambo

I made my position perfectly clear in other posts Gozunda, but, I don't really give a sheet what you think of me, you can keep the insults going for all I care .

The facts remain, since you started your condescending defense of the hunt, you have encouraged people to vote against it.

Look, I'm sure you are a grand fella when you aren't behind your keyboard. I'd say you are a great man to have a pint with. But in this thread you have not really represented yourself very well. I know it's easy to put people down on an anonymous thread on the internet, but it simply doesn't garner friends of the hunt when you have someone like yourself trying in (obvious) vain to defend what you are doing.

I am genuinely sorry I accused you of being an anti, I really really thought you were because of the way you were further alienating and generating enemies of the hunt on this thread. It seems to me now that you are not an anti, but someone who just isn't a very good online self appointed representetive of the hunt.

Anyway, as I said before, it's no skin off my nose, keep up the bad work and all that, you got an apology and all! I'd say other hunt representatives are cringing so much their ears are meeting at the back of their heads. :pac::pac:

Spunk84

Yes

The fact is that it is legal in Ireland to cull foxes. There is no such thing in Ireland Law that refers to "Vermin", Vermin is an american term so please be careful with intertwining of words. Vermin is a term applied to various animal species regarded by some as pests or nuisances not just a Fox.

The thread was started asking to ban or not to ban fox hunting and as per usual everyone has something to say from the anti`s to the pro hunting.

Lets look at this way-
We ban Fox hunting:D
Then we ban rabbit hunting:D
We Ban shooting of any animals:D
We Ban walking dogs, Some people say its cruel, so why not:D
We Ban owning dogs, as its cruel keeping them as pets:D
We Ban horse riding, Its cruel riding a horse, so why not:D
We Ban owning horses as it cruel keeping them as pets:D
We Ban owning any animal, as animals should be free:D

So tell me where does it stop? As i mentioned above anyone in Ireland is legally entitled to hunt foxes and for this Ban or No Ban to keep coming up is becoming a Joke but let me ask one question:

Have you ever seen a fox hunt, being shot or dug out of a hole? In real life, not a picture from peta website, animal rights page or even on the TV but in real life? If you have then this a great place to share your comments but if your one these people who sit and watch them on youtube, TV or you friendly antis site:D then you dont know if its cruel or not, so how can you have opinion when you have never seen both sides of the story>?

Think about those two babies in England who where mulled by a fox, their lives will be strained now with their scares, imagine how other kids will look at them and tease them. This was caused by one fox, one fox!!! One pretty little fox

ISDW

Spunk84 wrote: »

The fact is that it is legal in Ireland to cull foxes. There is no such thing in Ireland Law that refers to "Vermin", Vermin is an american term so please be careful with intertwining of words. Vermin is a term applied to various animal species regarded by some as pests or nuisances not just a Fox.

The thread was started asking to ban or not to ban fox hunting and as per usual everyone has something to say from the anti`s to the pro hunting.

Lets look at this way-
We ban Fox hunting:D
Then we ban rabbit hunting:D
We Ban shooting of any animals:D
We Ban walking dogs, Some people say its cruel, so why not:D
We Ban owning dogs, as its cruel keeping them as pets:D
We Ban horse riding, Its cruel riding a horse, so why not:D
We Ban owning horses as it cruel keeping them as pets:D
We Ban owning any animal, as animals should be free:D

So tell me where does it stop? As i mentioned above anyone in Ireland is legally entitled to hunt foxes and for this Ban or No Ban to keep coming up is becoming a Joke but let me ask one question:

Have you ever seen a fox hunt, being shot or dug out of a hole? In real life, not a picture from peta website, animal rights page or even on the TV but in real life? If you have then this a great place to share your comments but if your one these people who sit and watch them on youtube, TV or you friendly antis site:D then you dont know if its cruel or not, so how can you have opinion when you have never seen both sides of the story>?

Think about those two babies in England who where mulled by a fox, their lives will be strained now with their scares, imagine how other kids will look at them and tease them. This was caused by one fox, one fox!!! One pretty little fox

Did you see a fox do it? Not read a newspaper report, or watch the news on TV, did you actually see it happen? If not, how can you have an opinion? Same argument as you're trying to use that people can't have an opinion on hunting foxes with dogs.

Spunk84

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

Did you see a fox do it? Not read a newspaper report, or watch the news on TV, did you actually see it happen? If not, how can you have an opinion? Same argument as you're trying to use that people can't have an opinion on hunting foxes with dogs.

The thread isnt about hunting with dogs? The thread was

Worztron wrote: »

Hi.

I find the "sport" of fox hunting to be utterly deplorable. I'd like it to be completely banned.

Oscar Wilde: (referring to fox hunting) The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.