Ban on Fox Hunting

pokertalk

homerhop wrote: »

You would be surprised at the amount of lads out there who have the same attitude as I do, but with all things in life there are some who will always look to the minority to get thier point across.
With the new licensing system anyone new to the shooting scene must do a profeciency course before being granted their licence. I know in the club I am in all new members are also sent on a course that covers everything from the wildlife act, to species identification and some coaching in shooting.
In my personal oppinion I would like to see something there that would have a set standard for shooting ability with coaching provided before being granted a license.

i think there is a big difference between hunting with hounds and the way you hunt as far as stress is concerned and the manner in which the animal is killed.in your case you are stalking your prey and they do not see it coming as opposed to being chased frightened and in some cases being ripped apart.

i think im more pro animal welfare as to anti hunting but i would still say im anti hunt because i do not condone some of the practises

Whispered

Yes

homerhop wrote: »

Just as you dislike such organisations and being lumped in with them I am sick to the back teeth of being lumped in with some of the comments made by people who are anti hunting. Its a two way thing.

Of course it is! It has to be. I think both sides of the fence often have unreasonable people with unreasonable views who are more interested in pushing their own point than having any sort of talk.

I had this very conversation with my dad lately. It's only in the past while he's stopped giving me grief about taking in strays so it's safe to say we often have conflicitng views. Although in fairness it's now at the point we can talk about it without either of us getting annoyed. :rolleyes:

Anyway - he was telling me about when he was a younger man, himself and his brother went to some sort of hunting fair in belfast. Getting on the bus at 5am, arriving in belfast hours later. On the way in, protesters were smacking the bus and screaming at the people on the bus.

On the way out - the police were there. A fight had broken out between the protesters and 2 of them had stabbed each other. It turned my dad away from any sort of welfare organisation for good. He was disgusted that they could protest animal cruelty, yet thought nothing of stabbing another person.

Just like people like this can damage a cause against hunting - a gung ho "you don't know what you're talking about" or accusations of ignorance, can damage a hunters standing in a discussion. A lot of the time anti's are accused of being city dwellers with no idea of country life. This to me is a cop out and a way of dismissing an argument without actually conversating. Just like an anti screaming murder is a cop out and a way to avoid conversation.

To be fair though I think a lot of the replies in the thread are well thought out and considered.

homerhop

Yes

All I can say to you Whispered is anything I will ever post on is based on first hand experience, just as you do. You for your reasons are anti hunting, where as I am pro and I am open minded enough to understand your views and am willing to sit and type in a respectful manner to you and any other poster who shows me the same courtsey about it.

homerhop

Yes

I dont look at it as a town city thing, I think in general people are becoming so far removed from nature that a lot of kids growing up wont know the difference between a wasp and a bee. I spent 3 weeks trying to get a poster so my friends 4yr old son can look out the garden and identify what birds he sees. Copies were made and laminated and he was like lord of the manor bringing it to play school.

pokertalk

homerhop wrote: »

I dont look at it as a town city thing, I think in general people are becoming so far removed from nature that a lot of kids growing up wont know the difference between a wasp and a bee. I spent 3 weeks trying to get a poster so my friends 4yr old son can look out the garden and identify what birds he sees. Copies were made and laminated and he was like lord of the manor bringing it to play school.

there are always going to be extremists on both side with stupid and wild views who just want to smash their point into your face .i like to think i am open minded and can take on board some points from the oppisite side of my beliefs.

a wasp and a bee??? eh they are the same:D

homerhop

Yes

Sure they are, ya never hear of a honey wasp??

pokertalk

homerhop wrote: »

Sure they are, ya never hear of a honey wasp??

no but have caught a few bubble wasps in my time:p
nite nite

djflawless

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Well have you asked a Foxhound who is too old to hunt or a Lurcher that's on death row in the Pound ? Or even one of the 10,000 Greyhounds that are killed every year ?

Dogs live for 14 or more years but many "sports" consider them disposable once they have served their purpose. It's not all about the happy hound chasing a fox.

since when does that show that ALL hunters/shooters do that??i know i dont..i know any of my shooting mates dont..

would love to see the statistics link you got this from?
my main dog for hunting is a rescued dog..she was a miserable mess when i got her a year ago..shes now a dog thats priceless to me..happiest dog ive ever experienced time with..show me that huning her has destroyed her or been cruel to her in anyway?

Discodog

djflawless wrote: »

since when does that show that ALL hunters/shooters do that??i know i dont..i know any of my shooting mates dont..

would love to see the statistics link you got this from?
my main dog for hunting is a rescued dog..she was a miserable mess when i got her a year ago..shes now a dog thats priceless to me..happiest dog ive ever experienced time with..show me that huning her has destroyed her or been cruel to her in anyway?

Go back through these discussions & you will see that I have provided plenty of links. Have you ever seen a retired Foxhound as a pet ?. I have only ever known one. The Greyhound Stud book shows the registration of thousands of puppies, where are they ?

I will repeat for the last time that I do not think that all hunters abuse their dogs. Most gundogs are well cared for. I am referring to pack hunting dogs & coursing/racing dogs.

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

So are you a qualified marksman/shooter and what courses have you passed?

I had to go through police approved training but I was only dealing with euthanasia so no need for marksmanship or fieldcraft. I have worked with marksmen on deer culls in the UK.

kildare.17hmr

Yes

pokertalk wrote: »

farmed animals are killed in a humane fashion which cannot be said for alot of kills in fox hunting

Really?? Not gonna put up a video because alot of people here would be ofended by it or be upset by it so only click on the link to the videos if you think you can watch them. here is a link to how some of your farmed animals are humainly killed..**VERY GRAPHIC**
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=halal+method+&aq=f

This still happens in this country, i recently saw an ad for a job in a slaughter house which stated you should be profisient in HALAL method. 99% of the foxes iv shot are dead before they hit the ground, i would consider that humain

Discodog

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

99% of the foxes iv shot are dead before they hit the ground, i would consider that humain

But your ability is not shared by all shooters. I have seen & rescued literally dozens of foxes with gunshot wounds. I find it astonishing that one needs a license of competence to drive a car but that one can carry a gun with no proof that you know how to use it.

homerhop

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

I had to go through police approved training but I was only dealing with euthanasia so no need for marksmanship or fieldcraft. I have worked with marksmen on deer culls in the UK.

Ah yes police approved training, so good that a range had to step in a while back and insist their safety officer being used for fear they would shoot one and other, and targets had to be moved closer because they could not hit them at the standard distance.

homerhop

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

But your ability is not shared by all shooters. I have seen & rescued literally dozens of foxes with gunshot wounds. I find it astonishing that one needs a license of competence to drive a car but that one can carry a gun with no proof that you know how to use it.

See previous post about anyone starting to shoot and new licensing system.

kildare.17hmr

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

But your ability is not shared by all shooters. I have seen & rescued literally dozens of foxes with gunshot wounds. I find it astonishing that one needs a license of competence to drive a car but that one can carry a gun with no proof that you know how to use it.

it is shared by every shooter iv shot with anyway, i wouldnt shoot with an irrisponsible person. I am aware there are some people shooting that should not be allowed near a spud gun BUT the vast majority are just like myself and the other lads posting here. we invest alot of time money in our sport and take it seriously, saftey and clean kills are the priorty. No one wants to see an injured animal. I do believe you that you have seen them with gunshot wounds in pain what i would question is the dozens of them

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Yes

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Really?? Not gonna put up a video because alot of people here would be ofended by it or be upset by it so only click on the link to the videos if you think you can watch them. here is a link to how some of your farmed animals are humainly killed..**VERY GRAPHIC**
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=halal+method+&aq=f

This still happens in this country, i recently saw an ad for a job in a slaughter house which stated you should be profisient in HALAL method. 99% of the foxes iv shot are dead before they hit the ground, i would consider that humain

I cant look at the video at work, (il look at it when i get home), i googled the HALAL method, I can assure you thats not how they are killed in abbotirs/factories. The bigger factories use somthing like an air gun that drives a little metal tube into the animals head, if you have seen the film no country for old men, its the exact same thing used to break the locks on the doors. The animal is dead straight away.
The other method used by smaller abbotirs, is one ive seen first hand in operation, as its how a lot of cows that are dying are put down. Its like a small nail gun. Again, the animal is dead straight away

Whispered

Yes

Haylee Big College wrote: »

I cant look at the video at work, (il look at it when i get home), i googled the HALAL method, I can assure you thats not how they are killed in abbotirs/factories. The bigger factories use somthing like an air gun that drives a little metal tube into the animals head, if you have seen the film no country for old men, its the exact same thing used to break the locks on the doors. The animal is dead straight away.
The other method used by smaller abbotirs, is one ive seen first hand in operation, as its how a lot of cows that are dying are put down. Its like a small nail gun. Again, the animal is dead straight away

There are many many people who would disagree with you there - but I don't want to get into detail, as to be honest I find it very upsetting to think about. But safe to say it's not always as clean cut as you seem to have experienced.

Not to mention the hours of fear involved in transport and actually getting to the place where they will be killed.

As much as I'm against needless hunting - I don't think it possible to construct a proper argument against it by using farming as an example of humane killing.

homerhop

Yes

Halal killing does occur in factories here, it happens in Kildare Chilling and the meat is exported.

Whispered

Yes

homerhop wrote: »

Sure they are, ya never hear of a honey wasp??

:D:D

http://www.whatsthatbug.com/2008/11/28/mexican-honey-wasp/

kildare.17hmr

Yes

homerhop wrote: »

Halal killing does occur in factories here, it happens in Kildare Chilling and the meat is exported.

it also happens in a plant in mullingar which was where the ad for the job was which had halal experience as a pre request for the job. i think one of the videos is from an irish meat factory. These videos actually turned an anti hunting friend of mine in my favour when he seen them compaired to hunting videos

kildare.17hmr

Yes

Haylee Big College wrote: »

I cant look at the video at work, (il look at it when i get home), i googled the HALAL method, I can assure you thats not how they are killed in abbotirs/factories. The bigger factories use somthing like an air gun that drives a little metal tube into the animals head, if you have seen the film no country for old men, its the exact same thing used to break the locks on the doors. The animal is dead straight away.
The other method used by smaller abbotirs, is one ive seen first hand in operation, as its how a lot of cows that are dying are put down. Its like a small nail gun. Again, the animal is dead straight away

the bolt gun is used for most of the meat for the irish market, to say halal is not used in irish factorys is completly wrong

ItsAWindUp

Of course it should be banned.

homerhop

Yes

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

Of course it should be banned.

Of course it shouldnt be banned.

djflawless

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Go back through these discussions & you will see that I have provided plenty of links. Have you ever seen a retired Foxhound as a pet ?. I have only ever known one. The Greyhound Stud book shows the registration of thousands of puppies, where are they ?

I will repeat for the last time that I do not think that all hunters abuse their dogs. Most gundogs are well cared for. I am referring to pack hunting dogs & coursing/racing dogs.

i could give you addresses for hundreds of retired hunting dogs of all breeds who are now family pets or who live with elderly people for company.post a thread in the shooting section asking what fellas do with a working dog when its retired

djflawless

Yes

Haylee Big College wrote: »

I cant look at the video at work, (il look at it when i get home), i googled the HALAL method, I can assure you thats not how they are killed in abbotirs/factories. The bigger factories use somthing like an air gun that drives a little metal tube into the animals head, if you have seen the film no country for old men, its the exact same thing used to break the locks on the doors. The animal is dead straight away.
The other method used by smaller abbotirs, is one ive seen first hand in operation, as its how a lot of cows that are dying are put down. Its like a small nail gun. Again, the animal is dead straight away

the father works on a knackery yard and often uses a bolt gun.it DOES NOT kill an animal straight away.a meta T rod has to be inserted to the hole in the head to kill the brain.which is done by pushing the rod in and out of the brain

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Yes

Whispered wrote: »

Not to mention the hours of fear involved in transport and actually getting to the place where they will be killed.

Most have no fear of trailers/lorries at all, depends on the lots of things mainly breed and age, the younger the animal the more confused it gets, as it doesnt know what its supposed to do. Most of our cattle walk onto the trailer as soon as the ramp is let down, they know what to do as they are used to being transported! loading can get them excited, but after a minute or two on a trailer, they calm down

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

I would like to see something there that would have a set standard for shooting ability with coaching provided before being granted a license.

So I agree with you or is it you agreeing with me

Discodog

djflawless wrote: »

i could give you addresses for hundreds of retired hunting dogs of all breeds who are now family pets or who live with elderly people for company.post a thread in the shooting section asking what fellas do with a working dog when its retired

Ok so tell us where there are retired Foxhounds ?

If the IGB are to be believed there should be some 100,000 retired Greyhounds in Ireland. Do you know where they are as well ?

It is really frustrating to have to repeat the same posts over again because they were either not read or their content is ignored so let's try again.

I do not think that gundogs are abused or not rehomed properly.

Now is that clear enough ?

pokertalk

some might disagree and say that the halal method is less painfull than the "normal way"http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halal.htm

homerhop

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

So I agree with you or is it you agreeing with me

Is there a blue moon or did hell freeze over on that one.;)

But in fairness it is my personal opinion. When I started shooting I was brought to clay shoots and coached by guys in safety and general handling who had been shooting long before I had been born and then tagged along when they went rough shooting and was let have a shot now and then. I think most people starting out go down the same road, they take an interest and get to go along with people who do shoot. Anyone starting out now have to do a Proficiency course run by the NARGC or similar body.