Ban on Fox Hunting

Bog Bunny

clln wrote: »

Taking into account the mod warning,without it i would have used stonger language! this is not a sport it is cruelty pure and simple.
i have always been an urban dweller though. some people reared in rural area's are sure to wonder what the problem with anti fox hunting posters is.that to an extent is understandable to me.

i think the issue runs much deeper though.sometime in the future i think humanity will look back on us for killing other creatures for not just food but for recreation as barbarians once we knew other ways to eat protein.

i am straying off topic into talking about turning vegetarian now so i will shush.

i do not mean this as an attack on people who believe in foxhunting,just an appeal to them to ask themselves, why terrorise any living creature in the name of sport?
for food is another days thread.
cheers

I think in his specific issue the sides are so entrenched that no matter what one or the other side produces in line of arguments, you are either preaching to the converted or talking to the wall.

The question what happens to the horses and the hounds if fox hunting were to be outlawed is a valid one. But there are alternative 'occupations' for these animals, drag hunting and cross country competitions; they'd enjoy it just the same.
Bull baiting was a sport once too, but we still have the bull breeds. Wolf hunting was a sport once too, the wolfhound is still a breed and is quite popular.

It requires an open mind to take new points of view on board, to be able to listen and learn. Alas, it seems there are far more open stable doors than open minds.

clln

Bog Bunny wrote: »

I think in his specific issue the sides are so entrenched that no matter what one or the other side produces in line of arguments, you are either preaching to the converted or talking to the wall.

Well said! interesting that the poll although not many voted is about 50/50 on this.again i think to some extent it is an urban/rural divide.
one persons vermin is another persons cuddly creature.

Bog Bunny

Manach wrote: »

Foxes are cruel vermin. Tough.

Wouldn't cruelty require the will to cause deliberate pain and suffering?

A fox hunts and kills because he is hungry. While we might consider the way he kills his prey cruel he simply acts on instinct.

He is considered vermin because he hunts and kills game which humans believe is exclusively theirs and only theirs to kill.

Do we still go after game because we need to feed ourselves?

doctor evil

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_hunting

EGAR, foxhunting and drag hunting are two different things that require different hounds and horses that tend to have more tb in them. It is not unusual for a rider to change to a second horse halfway through as it is so full with not as much breaks as you would find in foxhunting. Not all riders like the faster pace. There is also the issue of access to land, many won't give it for dh as they get no benefit what so ever. Large estates found in other countries don't really exist in Ireland so the hunt often has lots of landoweners to ask/engage with. The above link contains reference to LACS so it is certainly biased.

There is not always a clean shot with a bullet.

Wouldn't it be more apt for the poll to be named 'Ban on hunting with dogs'

doctor evil

Yes

bullylover wrote: »

Its harder to get insurance as a horse rider then it is for a F1 driver:/

I have no problem getting insurance as a horse rider, I have gold membership with the BHS. There are Irish companies that are starting to offer it.

doctor evil

Yes

bullylover wrote: »

I think drag hunting or fun running/charity run is the way forward as egar as stated. But how do you tell that to the local fox hunt?
What happens to the hounds? Who pays the whipper in? Do the hunt just lay a scent and use the hounds as normal?
Not being smart, i really dont know:/ How does it all work?

Hunts already do a lot of fund raising for charities, they also have sponsored rides/charity runs. Hunts also organise Hunter Trials during the summer.

http://www.countygalwayhunt.com/introduction.html

Subs/subscriptions pay for the running of the hunt and any wages.

Wrong link up above, I'll leave it as one poster has refernced it.

The link below is the onen I meant as an example of a hunt doing charity work

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/horses/1875812

doctor evil

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

I think it is important for people to realize that one is not necessarily a tree-hugger if one is opposed to bloodsports.

A lot of people call them fieldsports, calling it bloodsports kind of has a treehugger leaning to it. Do you think all fieldsports are bloodsports?

homerhop

Yes

Having grown up in a time when the Galway Blazers would meet and we would be given the day off school to follow the hunt I guess it is something that I grew up with. I often stood on a St Stephens day watching the hounds cross the land followed by the riders only to see a fox appear and run back through the horses.
As part of a gun club the woodlands we have are are often used by the local pack to run, a pack of hounds make a hell of a racket even before they start to hunt and any fox hearing that will have moved to ground well in advance of the pack ever catching up with them.

Bog Bunny

doctor evil wrote: »

Hunts already do a lot of fund raising for charities, they also have sponsored rides/charity runs. Hunts also organise Hunter Trials during the summer.

http://www.countygalwayhunt.com/introduction.html

Subs/subscriptions pay for the running of the hunt and any wages.

When you talk of Hunts, does this always involve the pack of hounds going after the fox? And the sponsored rides and charity runs - are they the same as these 'hunts'?

Isn't it a bit of a conflict to be in hunting/killing mode and charitable at the same time?
Can you tell that I'm not a horse person although I adore horses and would have liked to go into dressage and / or volting....

TooManyDogs

doctor evil wrote: »

EGAR, foxhunting and drag hunting are two different things that require different hounds and horses that tend to have more tb in them.

When they were banning fox hunting in the UK this was one of their arguments against it - that drag hunting would never work with the same hounds but most were successfully retrained and now routinely drag hunt.

jap gt

Yes

Bog Bunny wrote: »

Wouldn't cruelty require the will to cause deliberate pain and suffering?

A fox hunts and kills because he is hungry. While we might consider the way he kills his prey cruel he simply acts on instinct.

He is considered vermin because he hunts and kills game which humans believe is exclusively theirs and only theirs to kill.

Do we still go after game because we need to feed ourselves?

He isnt vermin just for killing game, what about the sheep farmers/poultry farmers, not many people here would have pity on a fox if they saw the damage they do, all the talk of killing a fox being for fun, i have never killed any animal for fun.. i hunt fox at least once a week, all for farmers that want them off the land to protect stock, I love the challenge of trying to get the fox, i take no pleasure in shooting it but it has to be done.

doctor evil

Yes

TooManyDogs wrote: »

When they were banning fox hunting in the UK this was one of their arguments against it - that drag hunting would never work with the same hounds but most were successfully retrained and now routinely drag hunt.

I think you mean bloodhounds hunting the clean boot? Which is when the hunt follow a runner who is ahead of the pack. The runner determines the course. This is more of an inbetween between fh and dh. Drag hunting is fast and furious, not for the nervous and not suitable for all horses. DH is prelaid with a strong scent that the hounds can follow more easily than the clean boot.

Northern Ireland flat out rejected the ban on hunting with dogs in Dec 2010, it was the exact same bill that governs England/Wales. This proves what a daft legislation it is, most refer to it as a ban on foxhunting when it is a ban on hunting with dogs/hunting act 2004. Up to two dogs can still be used for hunting ie stalking and flushing.

doctor evil

Yes

Bog Bunny wrote: »

When you talk of Hunts, does this always involve the pack of hounds going after the fox? And the sponsored rides and charity runs - are they the same as these 'hunts'?

Isn't it a bit of a conflict to be in hunting/killing mode and charitable at the same time?
Can you tell that I'm not a horse person although I adore horses and would have liked to go into dressage and / or volting....

Never too late to give horse riding a go Bog Bunny:).

The sponsored rides/charity runs are not the same as a days hunting, with these events you have access to ride on land that you would not normally be allowed on with the option of some jumps. In Ireland there are no bridleways. To ride in forestry you must have a permit, some beaches are 100% off limits to riders and others have time constraints on them based on season.

Perhaps the link below would help on the different types of hunts?

http://www.hai.ie/

Discodog

Could the OP clarify their Poll & some here are taking it as traditional hunting with Hounds & others as including shooting.

Discodog

Hellrazer wrote: »

If this descends into a an anti-hunting chaotic thread Im going to issue one week bans without warning.

I trust that, for the sake of balance & fairness, you will issue bans if this descends into pro-hunting chaos.

Hellrazer

Discodog wrote: »

I trust that, for the sake of balance & fairness, you will issue bans if this descends into pro-hunting chaos.

Jesus do you ever stop picking at things.

And the answer to the question is yes I will.

In saying that Im quite surprised how well this thread is going.

Worztron

Discodog wrote: »

Could the OP clarify their Poll & some here are taking it as traditional hunting with Hounds & others as including shooting.

I refer to all forms of fox hunting.

TooManyDogs

doctor evil wrote: »

I think you mean bloodhounds hunting the clean boot? Which is when the hunt follow a runner who is ahead of the pack. The runner determines the course. This is more of an inbetween between fh and dh. Drag hunting is fast and furious, not for the nervous and not suitable for all horses. DH is prelaid with a strong scent that the hounds can follow more easily than the clean boot.

No the documentary I watched was definitely about converting hounds from fox hunting to drag hunting, the man in charge of the hounds (sorry I can't remember the proper name) was skeptical that the hounds could be retrained and figured they'd all have to be pts. But he created a concoction of strong smelling stuff, soaked bundle of cloth in it and then it was dragged around the fields they usually hunted through. He had to admit that it could be a good alternative and the hounds weren't pts. The documentary was about the number of animals put in jeopardy as a result of the fox hunting ban and it went through retraining hounds for pet homes, and then this segment on retraining the hounds for drag hunting

planetX

Unfortunately I can't see a ban coming in a country which still allows hare coursing. At least the foxes are on their own turf - why are these 'people' allowed to steal hares from all over the country and cart them off to torture for their own pleasure.
I despise the hunts.... may they fall from their horses.

homerhop

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

I think it is important for people to realize that one is not necessarily a tree-hugger if one is opposed to bloodsports.

It is also important than one is not necessarily some of the colourful terms that hunters have been called in this forum over the years and yet still be an animal lover

ISDW

Knine wrote: »

Well eh judging by some of the faces Ive seen on the posters, no.... but I could be mistaken

Totally off topic, but you're out of order. You don't have to be white to be Irish, which I guess is what you are saying.

clln wrote: »

Well said! interesting that the poll although not many voted is about 50/50 on this.again i think to some extent it is an urban/rural divide.
one persons vermin is another persons cuddly creature.

I do get annoyed by this thinking that everyone in towns is against it, and everyone in the country is for it. I live in the country, slap bang in the middle of nowhere, nearest shop is 10 minutes drive away. I oppose hunting with hounds, as it would appear do all of my neighbours, there are signs up all around here on the farmland banning hunting.

jap gt wrote: »

He isnt vermin just for killing game, what about the sheep farmers/poultry farmers, not many people here would have pity on a fox if they saw the damage they do, all the talk of killing a fox being for fun, i have never killed any animal for fun.. i hunt fox at least once a week, all for farmers that want them off the land to protect stock, I love the challenge of trying to get the fox, i take no pleasure in shooting it but it has to be done.

I oppose hunting with hounds, as to me that is a 'sport' not a means of population control, its for people to go and have a day out on their horses, as has been said, foxes frequently get away from the pack, so its not effective, so surely it negates the argument about population control. However, I don't have any issues with the humane killing of vermin, and I concede that to farmers foxes are vermin, so I have no problems with what you do.

Someone posted about the difference between calling it bloodsport and fieldsport. Again, I have no problem with someone shooting a bird or animal and then eating it, I am a meat eater although I don't kill my own food. However, the idea that having an animal torn apart by a pack of dogs to kill it is anything other than a bloodsport I'm afraid is laughable.

Bendihorse

Yes

Bog Bunny wrote: »

Wouldn't cruelty require the will to cause deliberate pain and suffering?

A fox hunts and kills because he is hungry. While we might consider the way he kills his prey cruel he simply acts on instinct.

He is considered vermin because he hunts and kills game which humans believe is exclusively theirs and only theirs to kill.

Do we still go after game because we need to feed ourselves?

A fox will kill every chicken in a coup and only take one, maybe two away from kill site.

It really bothers me that people that dont have a clue what they are talking about form such strong opinions on things based on nothing, maybe based on something heather mills said at one stage.

Opposition to hunting and wearing of fur tend to hit headlines when economies are booming and people don't have a lot else to write about. It was considered extreemly unethical to wear fur 5-10 years ago, its back in vogue big style again now that people have bigger things to think about and also fashion followers are feeling the pinch and are raiding attics for vintage looks.

Foxes are vermin. Would people be so upset if it was rats that were being chased by dogs and killed?

Fox hunts do not catch healthy foxes. Any healthy fox will be long gone when he hears one blast of the horn. For that matter, have you ever actually heard the commotion caused by a hunt? Hooves of up to 50 horses hammering a beat out on tarmac and a pack of hounds howling and barking with excitement?

This whole notion of 'chasing a fox to exhaustion' is simply not true. I suggest to all the people that are staunchly anti this activity to GO and SEE a hunt for themselves and form an opinion based on that. If they still feel it should be banned AFTER seeing one, then thats fair enough. Too many people with too strong an opion about something they know nothing about.

EGAR

doctor evil wrote: »

A lot of people call them fieldsports, calling it bloodsports kind of has a treehugger leaning to it. Do you think all fieldsports are bloodsports?

I did not know that you lived inside my head and knows what *leanings* I have ??

The choice of words to describe this abomination is my prerogative, don't you think?

And please do not put words in my mouth as I have already stated I have no problem with hunting if it doesn't involve an animal being chased and then ripped apart.

Badger baiting,fox hunting, dog and stallion fight, carted stag hunting etc THAT is what I call bloodsport.

Different dogs and horses for drag hunts? Give me a break, a lot of hunts do both, I don't recall them having two packs of dogs or a second set of horses.

Same old same old....

Bendihorse

Yes

EGAR, a fox has no natural preditors. They need to be controlled. Mass shootings of foxes result in young healthy dogs being shot, sometimes females that are in pup or feeding.

The notion of 'Chasing' the fox as I said above is wrong. A healthy fox will have a massive headstart on any pack. Foxes run in a zig zag pattern in their own habitat to put the dogs off their scent and it works, I'v seen it first hand, this is why the fox will often end up beside the pack of horses with the dogs running in the complete wrong direction.

There is NEVER a period of prolonged or sustained 'running' for the dog as they have so much cover. They know where to go in their own habitiat to get to ground. I don't condone the practice of digging out foxes. I see it as a fair hunt, if the fox gets to ground, he should be left lie as he has won in that case.

None of the hunts I know of 'dig out'. RARELY, if a farmer has an issue with a particular fox in his lad he can request that the fox be killed even if it gets to ground, this can be by digging out or shooting.

Vegeta

Yes

People who deal with pets and domesticated animals trying to dictate policy for WILD animals.

You're right EGAR, same old, same old.

Whispered

Yes

So the general consensus is that if you are anti bloodsports you don't know what you're talking about, are likely to be a "tree hugger" and base our opinions on somthing Heather Mills has said?

Sure what's the point in conversating with people in API if your opinions on posters here are so low?

EDIT: to stay on topic; I'm from the middle of nowhere, have uncles and friends who hunt. I grew up seeing the excitement of the horses gathered in the town square and the hounds. The town would be practically closed off! All great excitement and brilliant to see. But that is what it is, it's a show, a good day out, a bit of a laugh, it's not a way to control population of foxes.

There are much better ways (and worse ways). As for the notion of bitches with pups being hunted - as far as I'm aware, any hunter worth anything will not shoot foxes during breeding season so is that point even valid for this particular thread?

Vegeta, do you think that if people deal with domesticated animals we should not have an opinion on wild? Using that logic - couldn't I say that you deal with wild animals so you shouldn't have an opinion on domesticated? I think that's a bit silly.

homerhop

Yes

couldn't I say that you deal with wild animals so you shouldn't have an opinion on domesticated? I think that's a bit silly.

I have been reading this forum since I joined boards and there are a lot who post in here that are of a mindset because someone hunts they dont have a clue about animals or care about animal welfare..

You have said it yourself that you grew up in a hunting house and your father had a vast knowledge about wildlife and animals and I would say that the majority of those who hunt would be the same.

Tranceypoo

EGAR wrote: »

I think it is important for people to realize that one is not necessarily a tree-hugger if one is opposed to bloodsports.

Oh this comment, I'm sick of it, I also get (as soon as they hear my London accent) 'you're not from the country sure what do you know'

My 'favourite' was when I was asked by some twat in a red jacket who I was questioning 'do you know any sheep farmers?', to which i could reply 'yes I do actually, I'm married to one', felt like saying 'ha, stick that in your pipe and smoke it mate' but thought it would be slightly childish

Whispered

Yes

homerhop wrote: »

I have been reading this forum since I joined boards and there are a lot who post in here that are of a mindset because someone hunts they dont have a clue about animals or care about animal welfare.

This is true of course, but there are a lot who don't feel that way, and have an opinon on one form of hunting. In fact most people who posted in this thread have said they understand the need for population control. And their opinions are condescended to and dismissed.

Homerhop, have you had a hard time in this forum? I remember when you started posting here saying how you would be expecting to get a hard time because you hunt.

EDIT: Just read your edit. Yes I did grow up in a hunting house, but I never said peope who know about hunting don't care and shouldn't have an opinion on pets. Vegeta said people who deal with domesticated animals shouldn't have an opinion on wild animals. I think that is as silly as saying that people who know about wild, shouldn't have an opinion on domesticated. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

planetX

Bendihorse wrote: »

For that matter, have you ever actually heard the commotion caused by a hunt? Hooves of up to 50 horses hammering a beat out on tarmac and a pack of hounds howling and barking with excitement?

This whole notion of 'chasing a fox to exhaustion' is simply not true. I suggest to all the people that are staunchly anti this activity to GO and SEE a hunt for themselves and form an opinion based on that. If they still feel it should be banned AFTER seeing one, then thats fair enough. Too many people with too strong an opion about something they know nothing about.

I've not only heard and seen the commotion - I've been in the middle of it when a pack of hounds tore through my garden and ran around and past where my 3 year old was standing. A rock was all I had to defend us, if my cats had been outside they'd have been ripped to shreds. What did the men on horses have to say? 'Ah, they wouldn't have hurt you'
The arrogance that they can run a pack of bloodthirsty dogs wherever they like - if my neighbours dog trespassed I could call the dog warden.
Vermin on horses.