Ban on Fox Hunting

homerhop

Yes

Whispered wrote: »

Homerhop, have you had a hard time in this forum? I remember when you started posting here saying how you would be expecting to get a hard time because you hunt.

There are somethings and some posters who I find it quiet hard not to pass comment on but that is the way with every form, there are those in the hunting forum who I would have no time for either.
There are some things I found very hard to understand, and some that I took very personal but let go.When I post about something it is not based on feelings but on personal experience. There are a few little things that I have noticed and have had other users from boards say exactly what i have noticed, but ya know what, its only an internet forum and there is no point losing sleep over it.

Bendihorse

Yes

planetX wrote: »

I've not only heard and seen the commotion - I've been in the middle of it when a pack of hounds tore through my garden and ran around and past where my 3 year old was standing. A rock was all I had to defend us, if my cats had been outside they'd have been ripped to shreds. What did the men on horses have to say? 'Ah, they wouldn't have hurt you'
The arrogance that they can run a pack of bloodthirsty dogs wherever they like - if my neighbours dog trespassed I could call the dog warden.
Vermin on horses.

That must have been very frightening for you, I can only imagine. The hounds can be hard to manage as they are led by their noses and follow the scent where ever it leads... They wouldn't savage your cats though, they are following/searching for the scent of the fox. If they followed scents of other animals that would lead to chaos.

Still, that is no excuse for the intrustion and you should have received an official apology on behalf of the hunt. I know there is a representative from our local hunt who remains on foot and is on hand both during and after the hunt to deal with and resolve any issues created.

Some hunts people can be very indignant, possibly hardened due to poor reception given by the people they encounter while hunting. This is also compounded when they are talking down from large horse, it's quite intimidating and can give the most self assured person an inferiority complex.

Discodog

I think that the OP has divided the argument in that there is a world of difference between shooting & hunting with dogs.

In 1911 we came under the English Protection of Animals act & 100 years later we still don't care enough about welfare to introduce our own law. In 1911 it would of been impossible to introduce a prevention of cruelty law without excluding bloodsports as many of the MPs were wealthy land owners. So instead of saying that it is illegal to cause suffering they said that it is illegal to cause "unnecessary" suffering. Then, rather than listing the animals that you can shoot or hunt, the government decided to make a short list of protected species & allowing the killing of anything not on the list. So is hunting necessary - no of course not. It is simply killing for pleasure.

The word Vermin keeps being quoted yet the law never mentions it. Foxes are apex predators but they do not need to be controlled & hunting will not affect the population in the long term. For every Fox you kill another just takes it's place. Apex predators are controlled by the availability of food. Nature will adjust the litter sizes & pup survival to suit the population - it did a pretty good job for millions of years before we intervened. The hunters know this & it suits them in that there will always be more to kill.

In 1911 it was deemed illegal to "infuriate or terrify" an animal. If we hunted Cows with packs of Dogs there would be a justifiable outcry yet a Fox's perception of fear & pain is the same as a Cows. We allow certain animals to suffer to suit our purpose & with hunting the purpose is pleasure.

For the animal lovers here the idea that someone would enjoy terrifying, exhausting, & killing an animal is abhorrent. To the hunter, getting an animal into his sights & then killing it, is pleasure. We will never change these people. But ever so slowly things are changing. The recent Coursing Championships used to be a well publicised national event & part of our "cultural sporting" calendar. This year there was very little publicity as Ireland begins to realise that many of our foreign friends strongly disapprove.

Tourist numbers are down. Ireland's "heritage" of bloodsports has been fairly unknown but the net has changed this. Remember all the fuss at last year's Coursing regarding the video of the death of a Hare - made by Swedish students researching Irish bloodsports ?. The ICC threats of Garda action & huge rewards that amounted to nothing but hot air - anyone remember RISE ?. Because of the net outsiders are also becoming aware of our appalling animal welfare record, puppy farms etc & they help by accepting our strays. Now we could become the holiday destination for those who are not allowed to kill in their own countries but can come here for a bloodsport holiday.

The Hunter's are worried about the "Anti's" - a term of abuse describing anyone who opposes hunting. They are breathing a sigh of relief at the impending demise of the Greens. They know that their "culture" will be safe for now. Ireland will be the very last to introduce basic animal welfare law & may only do so as part of European legislation.

That just leaves the question of why the hunters bother to defend their "sport" when it is not under threat ?.

EGAR

Bendihorse wrote: »

EGAR, a fox has no natural preditors. They need to be controlled. Mass shootings of foxes result in young healthy dogs being shot, sometimes females that are in pup or feeding.

I don't know why you bother to post if you don't bother to read the whole thread. I suggest you start from the beginning before you go off half-cocked.

I am not going to waste my time by repeating what I posted yesterday.

Bog Bunny

Older news,but innteresting observation nonetheless

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/05/science.research

A bit of understanding of the hunted creature in this debate may go some way to debunk myths, legends and lore - it is highly recommended reading for those who have a genuine interest, also scroll through the Q&A pages.

http://www.wildlifeonline.me.uk/red_fox.html

The age of enlightenment may reach these shores one day too, and the fox hunters on their big (or should I say 'high'?) horses may delight in a drag hunt after all, considering they already are in drag :-)

Discodog

Also read Les Stocker's book The Complete Fox. Les has rescued, rehabilitated & released literally thousands of Foxes as the boss of St Tiggywinkles - Europe's biggest wildlife hospital.

I was in the UK when Blair put the hunting ban into Labour's manifesto. The later research, in the Guardian link, just backed up what we all already knew that hunting does not affect the number of foxes.

fatmammycat

Foxhunting, been there done that, learned the cruel lesson. I have no defence only that I was young, horse obsessed and too stupid to know any better. As to whoever decried drag hunting because it's faster, ergo more dangerous?? Give me a break. I've seen more horses hurt doing actual hunts (most cobs are not designed to leap fences) or point-to-point than ever on a drag.

Cherry Blossom

Arriving late to the party! Some of the advantages of drag-hunting over fox hunting as I see them, non of which refer to the fox even though that is the main topic as I don't really want this post to be taken out of context!

1. The route is pre-determined therefore safer for both the hounds and horses.
2. The duration of the hunt can be set and the range of ability of the participants taken into account. (Jumps are often optional)
3. The hounds are unlikely to trespass on property where consent has not been given by the land-owner.
4. The hunt isn't going to come to an abrupt end early on due to a fox running 'out of bounds'.

EGAR wrote: »

Different dogs and horses for drag hunts? Give me a break, a lot of hunts do both, I don't recall them having two packs of dogs or a second set of horses.

I know of a fox hunt in an area where there are a lot of yards with excellent facilities. A number of which refused permission for the hunt to enter thier land. This meant 3 different cross country courses were off-limit so they changed it to a drag hunt, the hounds didn't seem to have any issues at all with the change of 'quarry'.

I have to say there is an awful lot of ignorance around drag-hunting, people see horses and hounds and suddenly they know what it's all about. People don't generally call it fox hunting or drag hunting, they just say hunting and most (of the general public) wouldn't know the difference or even that there is a difference. I've seen a 2 page spread in a newspaper with photos from a drag hunt. They also found they had a picture of a fox lying around and threw it in there 'for the craic' with the caption 'the fox gets away . . . phew!'. I don't recall seeing a retraction printed and I was told they had been made aware of the error.

I haven't voted in the poll, there seems to be some confusion about what it's for and it looks like some have voted wrongly by mistake so it has basicly become void.

Discodog

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

the hounds didn't seem to have any issues at all with the change of 'quarry'.

I have to say there is an awful lot of ignorance around drag-hunting, people see horses and hounds and suddenly they know what it's all about.

The Hounds are the only main issue that I have with drag hunting in that I suspect that they are just as disposable as they are with Fox hunting. If drag hunting encourages more people to stop Fox hunting then it can be a good thing.

You can't blame the public for ignorance. The average person is not going to notice any difference between a drag hut & a Fox hunt. The "Master" could get some flyers made up that could be handed out to promote & inform. Also it would help if their were no red jackets etc. I believe that there were cases of Fox hunts pretending to drag hunts, in the UK, to confuse protesters. If you look & sound like a Fox hunt then people are bound to assume the worse. I also suspect that some who drag hunt also Fox hunt.

Why not invite the Press & TV ?. It would give an opportunity to express your opposition to Fox hunting & to explain about drag hunts.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

The Hounds are the only main issue that I have with drag hunting in that I suspect that they are just as disposable as they are with Fox hunting.

If anyone thinks they would like to see what goes on first hand they should contact their local hunt. There are a lot of people who follow on foot. If they refuse access to their kennells or are not forthcomming with information on how their dogs are treated, kept and where they go in retirement, or if you are not happy with what you see then this should be questioned and if anyone is interested enough they will look at clubs a bit further afield. I'm trying to avoid making comment on individual clubs here but it's like everything else, there is the good and there is the bad.

Discodog wrote: »

You can't blame the public for ignorance. The average person is not going to notice any difference between a drag hunt & a Fox hunt.

Not so much the ignorance, this can easily be rectified, it's those that have no knowledge of the subject and refuse to become informed that do the damage and run around spouting rubbish :rolleyes:.

Discodog wrote: »

Also it would help if their were no red jackets etc.

At drag hunts red jackets are only worn by hunt officials so they are easily identified by the field, a lot people are involved in showing of some description as well and just wear black show jackets, some will be in black hunting jackets and a few may be in tweed.

Discodog wrote: »

I also suspect that some who drag hunt also Fox hunt.

Most people will only be a member of one club but it is common for fox hunting clubs to also run drag hunts for reasons such as the one I have given in my last post for example.

Discodog wrote: »

Why not invite the Press & TV ?

Sensationalism sells, anyone who posts on this forum is very much aware of this fact, the media is always going to see what they want to see, the aforementiontioned comments on refusal to become informed amongst the general public seems to be even more rife amongst the media, RTE's hounding of officials yesterday for information on the victims of the Cork tragedy is the general vibe I get from the media, I have no respect for them whatsoever, see my above post for the results of inviting the press. I'd prefer to leave this point at that or the thread will get seriously dragged off-topic.

Bendihorse

Yes

EGAR wrote: »

I don't know why you bother to post if you don't bother to read the whole thread. I suggest you start from the beginning before you go off half-cocked.

I am not going to waste my time by repeating what I posted yesterday.

You are an extremely condscending individual, I have no interest in discussing anything with you further.
THANK GOD the greens are going out of government, Tally Ho & good luck with your quest!

Bottle_of_Smoke

To be honest I don't think drag hunting will replace foxhunting. Its a different thing to be enjoyed in itself but people involved in foxhunting like the kick they get out of ''being a hunter'' and killing animals.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Just to be clear I have no issue with farmers shooting or having people shoot foxes on their land, what sickens me is the packs tearing a fox apart under the guise of ''tradition''

Feargal as Luimneach

I was at a fox dig when I was around 16. It took around twenty minutes to dig the fox out. There were 3 terriers present. They pulled the fox by his hind leg out of the hole. It took around 2 minute to kill the fox. At the time there was an adrenaline rush when it was happening. The fox was in severe pain those 2 minutes. The next day I realised I had taken part in a very cruel episode and was deeply ashamed of what I had done . If you going to hunt make sure the kill is quick, this was far from quick. If you need foxes killed go out and lamp them.
Here's a video of a fox dig similar to the one I was at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am9tVw8gSvQ (fox is being killed in the video).

BobTheBeat

Thats an absolutely disgusting and harrowing video. What class of people film this? Anyone who allows or encourages it, is a cruel and inhumane individual. FACT. Shooting is fine, quick bang, gone. This is a whole other level of torture.

Worztron

People that torture animals for fun are the lowest form of scum.

Discodog

The Hunters needed your money. Advert in Donedeal

"St Valentine's Hunting Weekend in Galway
Horses / Galway for sale

A special package is available to all hunting enthusiasts. The North Galway Hunt Ball and Days Hunting package is offered for Saturday the 12th of February. This is a one off special which includes Hunt Cap, Horse Hire and a Ticket to the Hunt Ball.
A great days hunting is promised followed by the infamous Hunt Ball which is being held in the Westwood House Hotel. A great line-up of entertainment is guaranteed and a night to remember, All welcome, please contact Brona on 087 9294776 for more details, Price: €250"

Cherry Blossom

What are the specific issues you have with this advert Discodog other than the fact they exist of course. ie. what is it that compelled you post specifically about this ad?

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/horses/1871188

Hellrazer

Id like to know aswell--you trying to stir things up discodog?

Discodog

Hellrazer wrote: »

Id like to know aswell--you trying to stir things up discodog?

For a start it is the first time that I have come across a hunt selling a day's hunting & offering to provide all the accessories including the horse !. The person who posted it in the Galway Forum only did so because there were protesters outside the Hotel hosting the hunt ball.

AJ Do drag hunts do this as it could be a good way to let someone experience a drag hunt ?.

Needless to say that I would be heartbroken if the North Galway hunt were short of money :rolleyes:.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

AJ Do drag hunts do this as it could be a good way to let someone experience a drag hunt ?.

I've never seen it, but something like that wouldn't really be targeting the general public perhaps more the hunting person who is in Galway for Valetines weekend (from mainland UK perhaps), as they are hiring out horses they would need to be insured to do so which wouldn't come cheap. Generally I think advertising any hunt would generate more bad publicity than good. All clubs have a hunt ball at least anually and always mentioned in a local paper with a load of photos usually in the entertainment or local events section or something, but after the event, not before.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog - Have you ever been to a drag hunt?

<ETA>
http://www.irishhorseriding.com/page.php?page=Hunting :P

(Know nothing about this whatsoever but it's the first thing that came up in a google search)

Discodog

Yes I have & I have been surrounded by Fox hunts as I once lived in a house that was in the middle of land used by a hunt. On one occasion a Fox decided to hide in my shed. I managed to slam the door shut just as the pack of hounds tore through my garden & hunters climbed over my fence. We then had a sort of "High Noon" stand off after which I sued the Hunt for damages & they settled out of Court. Freddie got released somewhere safe.

After that I decided to provide tea for the local Hunt Saboteurs which meant being filmed by the Police, questioned by the Police & on several occasions being prevented from entering my own gate by the Police. Both of my neighbours were also totally opposed to the Hunt & they had the same problems.

Bog Bunny

Discodog wrote: »

After that I decided to provide tea for the local Hunt Saboteurs which meant being filmed by the Police, questioned by the Police & on several occasions being prevented from entering my own gate by the Police. Both of my neighbours were also totally opposed to the Hunt & they had the same problems.

You are suprised? Where were your manners?! You should have offered the police tea as well!

On a more serious note - I can relate to that, had similar experiences.

doctor evil

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Hunt Saboteurs

Sabs are trouble makers that don't care if they hurt horse and hound. They are a different kettle of fish to antis who object to all/part of hunting.

doctor evil

Yes

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I've never seen it, but something like that wouldn't really be targeting the general public perhaps more the hunting person who is in Galway for Valetines weekend (from mainland UK perhaps), as they are hiring out horses they would need to be insured to do so which wouldn't come cheap. Generally I think advertising any hunt would generate more bad publicity than good. All clubs have a hunt ball at least anually and always mentioned in a local paper with a load of photos usually in the entertainment or local events section or something, but after the event, not before.

Anyone can hire a hireling! Just sort what day you go with the secretary and book the horse from yard/riding school who offer this service. Hireling includes the horse tacked up arriving at the meet and collected at the end.

hunting packages can include horse and accomadation and offer other activities for non riding OH. This is popular with tourists from Europe and America.

I don't think hunts in general advertising draws up bad publicity, keeping it secretive does as it allows rubbish to get spread about.

Discodog

doctor evil wrote: »

Sabs are trouble makers that don't care if they hurt horse and hound. They are a different kettle of fish to antis who object to all/part of hunting.

Typical sweeping generalisation. I never, ever saw one incident where the Saboteurs hurt or tried to hurt the horses or hounds. I did see plenty of Saboteurs being the victims of violence from the hunt & the police.

The local Saboteurs were led by a retired female solicitor who obviously knew the law, much to the annoyance of the hunt who didn't.

homerhop

Yes

Typical sweeping generalisation.

Something you have never been known to do :rolleyes:

I did see plenty of Saboteurs being the victims of violence from the hunt & the police.

Of course they are the most peaceful people out there, who would never get involved in any act or form of violence. The police dont video record people just so they can remember how nice and friendly they were. Just like this fella?

A MAN employed to be the public face of the League Against Cruel Sports, the anti-hunting group that condemns violent protest, was jailed for attacking police at an animal rights demonstration. Andrew Wasley was appointed the league's press officer late last year, 13 months after he was sentenced to three months' imprisonment for violent disorder. He pleaded guilty to taking part in a riot at Hillgrove

Perhaps we should all go back to a peaceful passtime like fishing that you say you have no problem with......oh wait we cant do that either seemingly!
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/222789_hunt_protesters_target_anglers?all_comments=1

Discodog

You know as well as I do that I could post many examples of hunt members/followers who have been convicted of assaulting people that oppose hunting - anyone can google a list.

I do not support some of the views of the HSA however I do admire anyone who has the conviction to go out & actually do something. My experience with hunts was in the run up to the ban. The police totally supported the hunt - my area's Chief Constable actually hunted !.

homerhop

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

You know as well as I do that I could post many examples of hunt members/followers who have been convicted of assaulting people that oppose hunting - anyone can google a list.

I do not support some of the views of the HSA however I do admire anyone who has the conviction to go out & actually do something. My experience with hunts was in the run up to the ban. The police totally supported the hunt - my area's Chief Constable actually hunted !.

At least I will admit that there are people involved in hunting who have assaulted people or caused damage but you like to portray those involved in anti hunting activities in a manner that they would not do such things. Again you sure like to use google when it suits you.

You admire people who go out and attack others?