Ban on Fox Hunting

the_syco

Yes

carraghsgem wrote: »

not all shooters cut the ear off goats and leave the carcasses to rot, i get them to drop in useable carcasses (youngstock) i then do a rough job on butchering them and use the best bits to make stews and the rest is dogfood

For those who don't look at the pictures, I'll say this: he shoots goats, and uses pretty much all of the animal, as opposed to shooting the goat for sport, and leaving it where it fell.

For the record, I support fox hunting using a gun. I don't support the f**kers on horseback, as that just ends in an exhausted fox getting ripped apart by hungry dogs.

Discodog

Whispered wrote: »

Oh god - you have to be over 18 to view that video.

I'm not signing into youtube to watch it, but wanted to state my position. I disagree with graphic images and videos from either side of the fence. In my opinion it turns what could be a rational debate into an emotional argument.

I disagree in that everything can get sanitised in a discussion. Hunters here talk about clean kills - it reminds me of the sanitised phrase "collateral damage". The internet is a big problem for the hunting lobby. Until relatively recently whatever occurred on the hunting field stayed there. Now anyone can film & post. People that have never been near a hunt can view video/images & make up their own minds. It is an emotional debate & so it should be.

doctor evil

Yes

An emotional debate is often not a rational one.

the syco what do you mean by the people on horseback? do you not like horses or is it horsey people you don't like? The fox is either caught or it isn't.

Discodog

doctor evil wrote: »

An emotional debate is often not a rational one.

So ?. Our love of animals ( & some humans) is irrational. Often we may not be able to rationalise that something is wrong but inherently we know it is. The hunting lobby fear emotion because it influences the majority in any vote.

doctor evil

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

So ?. Our love of animals ( & some humans) is irrational. Often we may not be able to rationalise that something is wrong but inherently we know it is. The hunting lobby fear emotion because it influences the majority in any vote.

Bizarre sounding post, love and irrational can be dangerous when used together! Flowery language or images that invoke soppy sentiment/spurned scorn is a poor form of persuasion/debate as it excludes logic and assumes the audience is thick. It is a cheap tactic.

If the hunting lobby feared emotion why would hunters strive for a clean kill?

Discodog

doctor evil wrote: »

Bizarre sounding post, love and irrational can be dangerous when used together! Flowery language or images that invoke soppy sentiment/spurned scorn is a poor form of persuasion/debate as it excludes logic and assumes the audience is thick. It is a cheap tactic.

If the hunting lobby feared emotion why would hunters strive for a clean kill?

People are not logical. On Friday thousands will vote according to a gut feeling, right or wrong. You can voice, Spock like, logic but killing an animal for pleasure will always tug at people's emotions.

The hunting lobby fear it because there is no way to oppose it. No matter how much hunters try to justify their reasons it cannot outweigh the impact of hunting.

The audience are not thick but they are often misinformed or the truth is hidden from them.

EGAR

doctor evil wrote: »

The fox is either caught or it isn't.

After so many pages of posts you should have copped on that we are discussing the HOW it is *caught* and the morality of it. It is kind of infantile to presume that the end justifies the means.

sensibleken

EGAR wrote: »

After so many pages of posts you should have copped on that we are discussing the HOW it is *caught* and the morality of it. It is kind of infantile to presume that the end justifies the means.

+1

I dont understand why people dont get this. Would you rather die peacefully in your sleep or be tortured to death for someone else's entertainment

John_Rambo

This thread is a surprise to me. Most of the animal lovers here can see the point of fox shooting in heavily farmed areas, the € comes first and that's that, a clean shot by a talented marksman seems to be the way to go!

I think the hunters of Ireland feel they are slowly being fragmented. The traditional idea of all hunters, farmers banding together as one is under debate lately. Some farmers aren't mad about the idea of the hunt running through their land, I would imagine some hunters wouldn't be nuts about being under the same umbrella as puppy farmers and mink farmers...

The hunters can heave against this fragmentation or run with it. Understandably there is a very real worry that if (for example) the mink farms are banned other types of farming would be under threat just like the fear that when stag hunting is banned, what's next? Fox hunting? Shooting? Fishing?

Personally I don't think shooting animals in Ireland will ever be just banned. I don't think angling will ever be banned. I think this is just scare mongering by people who's sport is really under threat (fox hunters on horseback). I believe shooting may become more regulated, but, in fairness, the sport has an excellent safety record in this country.

There was a lot of talk about emotion on this thread, but we have to remember a threat to a persons lifestyle is as emotive to that person as the suffering of any animal and most hunters don't like to see the suffering of any animal. (it will also ruin the taste of the meat) Egar, I am not denying you saw what you saw, there will always be a small percentage of idiots everywhere (you see evidence of this in the domestic dog scene more than any of us) and it's inexcusable, I'd say any of the hunters in the hunting forum would be disgusted to see this.

Rural Ireland isn't awash with jobs right now, people have lost a lot, houses, cars, jobs, friends and family through emigration.. etc. Traditional sporting pursuits are important to folk, early morning fishing, stalking even rambling can make things worthwhile for some folk.

I'm not crazy about the idea of hunting foxes, but I can see why people do it, I don't like the cruelty of digging for foxes, I don't understand it. I completely understand why people legally hunt pheasant, deer, duck etc... I have joined in and enjoyed it immensely and enjoyed the food.

At this stage the debate is just going around in circles. It's an age old clash, but if we take a step back and try and see where people are coming from we may be able to compromise, or at least understand each other.

Whispered

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

I disagree in that everything can get sanitised in a discussion. Hunters here talk about clean kills - it reminds me of the sanitised phrase "collateral damage". The internet is a big problem for the hunting lobby. Until relatively recently whatever occurred on the hunting field stayed there. Now anyone can film & post. People that have never been near a hunt can view video/images & make up their own minds. It is an emotional debate & so it should be.

Well we have disagreed on this point before, so I expected you to respond like that.

I would prefer to take the discussion route than the "post a nasty video and scream LOOK WHAT YOU DO!!!" hunters are well aware of what they do, anti hunting people don't need to see such a video to be convinced.

I think emotional arguments don't have a place here a lot of the time. It causes threads to fall into insults and sarcasm, get closed and we are no closer to understanding either side. I mean if a hunter can walk away from this thread, rolling their eyes and saying "damn anti's", what has been achieved?

Worztron

the_syco wrote: »

Is the poll about the "sport" of fox hunting, or actual fox hunting? One involves horses and dogs, and one involves a quick kill.

I refer to all forms of fox hunting.

Cherry Blossom

Whispered wrote: »

I think emotional arguments don't have a place here a lot of the time. It causes threads to fall into insults and sarcasm, get closed and we are no closer to understanding either side. I mean if a hunter can walk away from this thread, rolling their eyes and saying "damn anti's", what has been achieved?

I completely agree and that's an excellent post from John Rambo. For some reason threads like this seem to drag some posters out of the woodwork. A lot of complete rubbish gets posted by people against who have no clue on the facts. (Some) people who hunt in return post stuff which they are well aware is complete lies. Then there is the spouting of rubbish like the poor dogs have no life or the poor dogs would all be killed if it was banned, the poor horses break their legs being forced to jump or the poor horses would all starve to death if they didn't hunt. Seriously? Get a grip! Like everything else there is the bad with the good as I've said before, this has absolutely no bearing on the arguement. Then there are people quoting crap straight off the PETA website and people quoting straight off the HAI website as a standard reply to give in order to justify their 'sport, both of these source are far removed from being un-biased fact based sources.

I'm well aware that the religious culture in this country and the strong influence it has had on the education is completely geared towards repressing any hint of free thinking, but I wish people would have a bit of common sence. I personally know a lot of people who go fox-hunting and what is portrayed here is far removed from the attitude they have in real-life when they believe they are in 'safe' company will honestly say they feel a bit sorry for the fox but sure it's worth it anyway as it's great craic sure. The fact is they are basically de-sensitised to it. Personally I am pretty much desensitised to most stuff due to my upbringing and industries I have worked in and in theory would be one of the most easily swayed towards it, however I have never heard one single arguement as to any 'real' benefit of hunting live quarry with dogs. There are perfectly good substitutions for both the sporting aspect of it and population control.

ppink

Worztron wrote: »

I refer to all forms of fox hunting.

Oh i am glad I did not assume as i have not voted yet. I would think you may get a different response if it was just hunting with dogs as opposed to shooting.

Discodog

The facts are that "shock publicity" (can't think of a better description) does work. Of course hunters won't change & neither will those who oppose hunting but there is a huge mass in the middle who do not hold a strong view either way because they do not know what is involved.

For example the Road Safety people could just give us polite gentle messages but they do not work. They use graphic images.

John has raised a very interesting point. Anyone who watched the Frontline debate could see the split in the hunting fraternity. There is no chance of any animal welfare legislation & FG have promised to resume Stag Hunting.

EGAR

Just to clarify a point for those who do not know. When I refer to stag hunting then I refer to Carted Stag Hunting which was banned last year. NOT deer hunting in general.

Great post, John Rambo.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

The facts are that "shock publicity" (can't think of a better description) does work. Of course hunters won't change & neither will those who oppose hunting but there is a huge mass in the middle who do not hold a strong view either way because they do not know what is involved.

And after reading threads like this they still don't, if they can be bothered wasting their time trawling through a load of childish name-calling and mud-slinging that is. Anyone who does not hold a strong view either way, generally doesn't give a monkey's fart, so isn't going to trawl through 12 pages of nonsence like this unless they see it as entertainment or something, I'm not remotely entertained by it incidently.

round tower huntsman

Yes

im a hunter, love hounds,love seeing em work,love being in the countryside,live foxes(ultimate quarry). a good fox will make a show of your hounds and run another day.

round tower huntsman

Yes

also most hunting in ireland is done on foot not horse back. there's way more foot harrier/beagle packs in irleand thne horse packs. foot packs are about working class,ordinary joes enjoying a days hunting following hounds across country. no pomp,no west brit snobishness just men/women that love the sound of hounds in full cry and seeing a pack work across a hill on a fine winters morning.

the_syco

Yes

doctor evil wrote: »

the syco what do you mean by the people on horseback? do you not like horses or is it horsey people you don't like? The fox is either caught or it isn't.

You hunt the fox, you aim, and shoot. If somehow you don't kill it on the first shot, you quickly reload, and shoot again.

As opposed to ten f**kers on horseback, with 20 dogs. They will chase the fox. They will chase it until their dogs catch the fox. When they chase the fox, they see it as a "fun day out". And at the end, when the fox collapses out of exhaustion, the 20 dogs will catch up, and a few of them will grab the fox. They'll rip the fox apart, whilst the fox is alive. They'll tear off one leg, and then the other. The fox will die, but will die slowly. Painfully. It's limbs ripped off. One by one. In a slow gruesome death. Those on the horses will not kill the fox. They'll just direct the dogs.

round tower huntsman

Yes

the_syco wrote: »

You hunt the fox, you aim, and shoot. If somehow you don't kill it on the first shot, you quickly reload, and shoot again.

As opposed to ten f**kers on horseback, with 20 dogs. They will chase the fox. They will chase it until their dogs catch the fox. When they chase the fox, they see it as a "fun day out". And at the end, when the fox collapses out of exhaustion, the 20 dogs will catch up, and a few of them will grab the fox. They'll rip the fox apart, whilst the fox is alive. They'll tear off one leg, and then the other. The fox will die, but will die slowly. Painfully. It's limbs ripped off. One by one. In a slow gruesome death. Those on the horses will not kill the fox. They'll just direct the dogs.

nonsense,pure nonsene. when hounds catch a fox its killed alomst instanly by its neck being broken. a hound kills a fox like a terrier kills a rat,two shakes and its curtains. also most foxes that are caught by hounds are usually caught quite quickly cos its uauslly only old sickly foxes or young stupid ones that get caught. foxes dont collapse from exhaustion to be slowly ripped apart leg by leg. an absolute lie by someone thats ner seen a fox hunt.

round tower huntsman

Yes

also huntsmen dont direct the hounds they are driven purley by scent, at times he may help them to get on the trail but if they scents bad the hounds loose him. fox hunting is not some blood bath,most foxes get away no problem. a good fox will get away from any pack.packs only catch the old and the stupid.

the_syco

Yes

round tower huntsman wrote: »

nonsense,pure nonsene. when hounds catch a fox its killed alomst instanly by its neck being broken. a hound kills a fox like a terrier kills a rat,two shakes and its curtains. also most foxes that are caught by hounds are usually caught quite quickly cos its uauslly only old sickly foxes or young stupid ones that get caught. foxes dont collapse from exhaustion to be slowly ripped apart leg by leg. an absolute lie by someone thats ner seen a fox hunt.

Information is good. Coming from a westie owner, I believe it

Still prefer the gun approach, though.

Discodog

I have a very strong constitution. When I was involved in Wildlife rescue I had to euthanase many animals that were too badly injured. I once had to witness hunters digging out a Vixen & cubs. Despite all our pleas, as a Wildlife rescue, for compassion & offers to relocate the foxes, the hunt threw the cubs to the dogs. At the same time we had to put up with goading & laughter. It may not be an emotional argument to some but it is to me.

Sonovagun

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

I have a very strong constitution. When I was involved in Wildlife rescue I had to euthanase many animals that were too badly injured. I once had to witness hunters digging out a Vixen & cubs. Despite all our pleas, as a Wildlife rescue, for compassion & offers to relocate the foxes, the hunt threw the cubs to the dogs. At the same time we had to put up with goading & laughter. It may not be an emotional argument to some but it is to me.

I doubt this very much. All professional Hunts take great pride in obeying the laws of hunting. No Hunt is going to cross boundaries where the law is concerned and put their livelihood in jeopardy. It's easy to fictionise for the purpose of anti hunting propaganda.

John_Rambo

I don't know if simply accusing people of lying is going to do your cause any good. As I said earlier, there are assholes in every walk of life. Surely you can accept that a small percentage hunters are assholes, just like some priests, gardai, printers etc...

Dismissing everyone that disagrees with you as a spoofer is not a great tack.

planetX

Sonovagun wrote: »

I doubt this very much. All professional Hunts take great pride in obeying the laws of hunting. No Hunt is going to cross boundaries where the law is concerned and put their livelihood in jeopardy. It's easy to fictionise for the purpose of anti hunting propaganda.

not my experience

Whispered

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

It may not be an emotional argument to some but it is to me.

If that "some" refers to me (and I suspect it does due to my earlier posts?) you have me wrong. While of course I feel emotion, I don't know if arguing about it in an emotional way is going to get anybody anywhere.

EG: John Rambo, doesn't disagree with hunting, is here and discussing rationally, personally I'm more likely to listen to his opinions that those of one of the hunters who are simply dismissing people who disagree with hunting as not knowing what they are talking about. It works both ways I'm sure.

John_Rambo

I said in my post how I feel about various types of hunting. I am not a hunter at all. But I do understand why people hunt, I have been out hunting, and I enjoy the spoils of some type of hunting. I understand that they play a huge positive part in the balance of our eco system and the control of introduced species, and in some cases hunters have to pay handsomely to do so. I see that they can feel marginalised as some outdated types of hunting methods are vilified. I feel their allegiances with various groups may be questioned and probably should be questioned, that's all.

(Hunters, feel free to correct me if I am way off the ball here)

Hunters have a fear that if one type of hunting is banned that this is the first of many chips being hammered away. They feel if fox hunting on horses will be banned that it will open the floodgates for deer stalkers, fox hunters, anglers etc... I personally feel that RISE leaned heavily on these fears for the Ward hunt and have got a bit quiet, but that's politics for you.

If things were to change, it wouldn't be like a local squash court closing down, hunting is more than that. I feel people don't understand this, people don't realise just how important these pursuits are, particularly to younger men in rural society.

I do know one thing for certain. I'd rather be a duck in the wild than a chicken destined for Tesco, nicer life and a death you don't see coming (that's if you are one of the very few ducks that are actually shot in Ireland).

homerhop

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

I have a very strong constitution. When I was involved in Wildlife rescue I had to euthanase many animals that were too badly injured. I once had to witness hunters digging out a Vixen & cubs. Despite all our pleas, as a Wildlife rescue, for compassion & offers to relocate the foxes, the hunt threw the cubs to the dogs. At the same time we had to put up with goading & laughter. It may not be an emotional argument to some but it is to me.

If you dont mind me asking, where did this happen?

Sonovagun

Yes

John_Rambo wrote: »

I don't know if simply accusing people of lying is going to do your cause any good. As I said earlier, there are assholes in every walk of life. Surely you can accept that a small percentage hunters are assholes, just like some priests, gardai, printers etc...

Dismissing everyone that disagrees with you as a spoofer is not a great tack.

Yes you are dead right there are assholes in the hunting circle and it is these assholes that have ruined hunting for those who hunt within the law.

But as for your point of me accusing people of lying! I'm totally entitled to express my opinion on what i believe to be an inactuate and probabley exaggerated tale of a hunt digging a fox! If a fox is to be dug it is shot in the earth! And then it could be thrown to the hounds. No hunt would dig and throw cubs to the hounds, what would the point be? Hunters love to hunt, they are not going to kill next years foxes or they'd have nothing to hunt. And hunts hunt in season, they don't hunt while vixens are rearing a litter! These are my reason of accusing someone of lying and spreading anti propaganda!!!