Ban on Fox Hunting

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

..The problem is that we do not know the Foxhound figures. We also do not know how many Hares are killed. We can get some idea regarding Greyhounds because some data is published but, of course, not the numbers killed. It's all a big secret & with coursing/racing we give a load of our taxes to this secret society.
After all the Hunt kennels sought exclusion from the inspections that were part of the Dog Breeding Bill.

No one can claim that these animals are well looked after without the figures to prove it.

Whispered wrote: »

....Just to add, in the documentary on tv3 I was struck by how healthy and happy the hounds looked and I do believe that for a working dog, a working life where they are well looked after is the best life for them...

Hounds are not abandoned or sold to unscrupulous breeders. They have a long, stable and happy life doing what they have been breed to do. Old healthy hounds have a part in the pack hiarchy. They are only pts when they are ill, or to old to have a good quality of life.

If you wish to check out if these animals are well looked after then turn up at the next hunt and see how the hounds look and behave. This will give you a fair idea of how well they are looked after ...

Whispered

Yes

Well of course they are going to look healthy and happy on the TV.

Sure if you kill all of the old or sick ones what else would someone expect.

As I've said, I think working dogs when properly looked after have a great life. I've seen it myself (not hunt hounds but lurchers, terriers etc). And I don't think I've seen happier than a well cared for working collie. But properly looked after includes not being disposed of when they slow down, it involves treating treatable injuries too.

Discodog

No it won't. Why can't any of us go to a Hunt Kennel, when we choose & see for ourselves ?. Why can't the Hunt produce verifiable figures ?.

Instead of giving us the same propaganda, that we have been getting for donkey's years, give us evidence & proof.

Looking at a hunt doesn't tell you how many were killed.

If the hunts have nothing to hide why the secrecy ?.

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

No it won't. Why can't any of us go to a Hunt Kennel, when we choose & see for ourselves ?. Why can't the Hunt produce verifiable figures ?.

Instead of giving us the same propaganda, that we have been getting for donkey's years, give us evidence & proof.....

Dont ask questions and then disregard the answers because it suits you to do so. I have given my own experience of foxhounds if you dont wish to acknowledge this thats fine but dont be disparaging and rude. I have seen how foxhounds are treated and they have a happy life. If you wish to have your own "evidence and proof" please get off your rearends and do the same.

So do contact your local hunt and ask to see the kennels. What have you got to loose? But dont expect them to provide ammunition for the anti brigade. Hounds have a long life. If they have to put hounds to sleep then that is a decision made by the person who looks after and cares for the hounds based on quality of life issues.


EOD

Discodog

gozunda wrote: »

If you wish to have your own "evidence and proof" please get off your rearends and do the same.

So do contact your local hunt and ask to see the kennels. What have you got to loose? But dont expect them to provide ammunition for the anti brigade. Hounds have a long life. If they have to put hounds to sleep then that is a decision made by the person who looks after and cares for the hounds based on quality of life issues.


EOD

Oh I have tried to do this many times. Hunts will allow access provided that they have vetted the "applicant" for suitability & an appointment is made. It's not about ammunition. It is about openness, transparency & evidence to substantiate your claims.

Hounds are killed because they have been reared & trained to serve one purpose. They are difficult to rehome. I cannot see why one dog should be treated differently to any other. If you own a dog you are responsible for doing your absolute best to ensure it's well being from cradle to grave. The grave should only come when the dog is too ill to continue a happy life & not when it has past it's "working" life. By training a dog to hunt you greatly restrict it's ability to be rehomed & that is wrong.

As for rudeness, if you look through this thread I have been subject to a great deal of innuendo & supposition. I have replied with robust directness not rudeness. I do not believe your claims & I have every right to disregard answers if they totally fail to answer the question.

So back on topic - How many hounds are killed every year ?.

obplayer

GV_NRG wrote: »

i think it should be totaly and utterly banned. period.

How about this compromise. We ban hunting of live animals for anyone under 16. My feeling is that without the de-senitisation of being brought up with this no normal person would take to it as an adult. If I am right it will end in a generation, if I am wrong we accept it. We already legislate on age-related activities, why not this?

Discodog

It wouldn't work. Children are influenced by their parents. But I agree with the premise in that often children are used on demos etc when they can have no real understanding of the issues.

The same rule could apply to religion - no don't go there :eek:

fatmammycat

As far as I remember from my early hunting days the average age of a fox hound was 5/6 and the oldest hound was 9. Florrie Webb, who rode with Wicklow and Wexford hunts, used to declare the best age of a hound was 4/5 for pace and temperment. Considering a hound can live very well up until 12/14 if retrained as a family pet, this leaves a great disparity in age for healthy viable dog. The stables where I worked lived two ex-foxhounds, and while they never adapted to being indoor animals, both lived to ripe old age and were delightful pets. It is possible, and it can be done, but hunts do not consider it important.

gozunda

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

Oh I have tried to do this many times. Hunts will allow access provided that they have vetted the "applicant" for suitability & an appointment is made. It's not about ammunition. It is about openness, transparency & evidence to substantiate your claims.

Hounds are killed because they have been reared & trained to serve one purpose. They are difficult to rehome. I cannot see why one dog should be treated differently to any other. If you own a dog you are responsible for doing your absolute best to ensure it's well being from cradle to grave. The grave should only come when the dog is too ill to continue a happy life & not when it has past it's "working" life. By training a dog to hunt you greatly restrict it's ability to be rehomed & that is wrong.
As for rudeness, if you look through this thread I have been subject to a great deal of innuendo & supposition. I have replied with robust directness not rudeness. I do not believe your claims & I have every right to disregard answers if they totally fail to answer the question.
So back on topic - How many hounds are killed every year ?.

Well I'm afraid it must be just you then - in this area visitors to the hunt kennels are welcomed. Yes they may have to make an appointment but that is part of health and safety regulations. Same as any other working establishments. These are not petting zoos so its hardly surprising that they have a right to screen visitors.

Discodog wrote:

They are difficult to rehome. I cannot see why one dog should be treated differently to any other

ehhh - exactly you have answered this yourself

Discodog wrote:

I have replied with robust directness not rudeness

Thats what its called is it?

Hounds and various dog breeds are bred for hunting not just for fox hunting. Breeds include retrievers, lurchers, terriers etc. These are all working dogs bred to do a specific job. You want to get rid of all of them?

What I would like to know is how many Backyard hoarders (aka rescue centres) that take in dogs that are then used for nefarious practices around the country including illegal hunting such as dog fighting? How are these places regulated. How many animals are kept? Do they get proper vetinary care including being being pts when required? This is especially important where fighting breeds are concerned. There is currently no reegulation whatsover of these establishments. A recent League against Cruel sports report recently showed that it was"Lads with Dogs" that were involved in most of the crimal activity in relation to wildlife in the UK and not the Hunts.

kildare.17hmr

Yes

Discodog wrote: »

. By training a dog to hunt you greatly restrict it's ability to be rehomed & that is wrong.

Dogs are not exactly trained to hunt hunting breads will do it instinctivly for the most part all yopu are doing is honing their skills. do you actually know how happy gun dogs are when they are out hunting? My pointer, my first gun dog is only about a year now and still learning but he loves nothing more than goin hunting, he sees the gun and knows where er are going and you can see the difference in him if he is just taken for a walk he does not enjoy it as much as being out through the fields doing what he was bread to do.

I dont think you have tried to look into hunting with an open mind, you seem to have an agenda and your opinion seems to eb foremd from an anti point of view and i dont think you have a clue what your talking about. you make it sound like there is a big conspiricy going on:rolleyes: Gozunda said his local hunt allows people access to see what its all about why not get the details off him, make an appointment and go with an open mind and see for yourself?? Again because you have an agenda i doubt you will.

obplayer wrote: »

How about this compromise. We ban hunting of live animals for anyone under 16. My feeling is that without the de-senitisation of being brought up with this no normal person would take to it as an adult. If I am right it will end in a generation, if I am wrong we accept it. We already legislate on age-related activities, why not this?

I hunted when i was a kid, not from anything my parents did(my father used to hunt when he was younger but i never knew this) it was something that interested me and i used to catch birds and relese them, some rabbits and other animals. whats wrong with it? nothing at all, it teaches kids respect for nature and teaches them skills they will use again. iv also introduced people my own age to hunting who never did it before, some have not liked it and others have in fact one friend of mine has just bought his first gun age 25 after being out with me and getting hooked and this is not uncommon at all so i dont think your idea would work im afraid. and it is kind of age regulated in that you have to be 14 before you can get a training licence for a firearm and 17 before you can handle one alone. restricting it further is a bad idea



Discodog

It wouldn't work. Children are influenced by their parents. But I agree with the premise in that often children are used on demos etc when they can have no real understanding of the issues.

The same rule could apply to religion - no don't go there

Bullsh!t see post above

gozunda

Yes

obplayer wrote: »

How about this compromise. We ban hunting of live animals for anyone under 16. My feeling is that without the de-senitisation of being brought up with this no normal person would take to it as an adult. If I am right it will end in a generation, if I am wrong we accept it. We already legislate on age-related activities, why not this?

Oh deary me...I have two friends who took up foxhunting in their 30's. I must tell them they are not "normal people". I'm sure they will be glad to know this...

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

Well I'm afraid it must be just you then - in this area visitors to the hunt kennels are welcomed. Yes they may have to make an appointment but that is part of health and safety regulations. Same as any other working establishments. These are not petting zoos so its hardly surprising that they have a right to screen visitors.


ehhh - exactly you have answered this yourself

Thats what its called is it?

Hounds are bred for hunting not just for fox hunting. Breeds include retrievers, lurchers, terriers etc. These are all working dogs bred to do a specific job. You want to get rid of all of them?

What I would like to know is how many Backyard hoarders (aka rescue centres) that take in dogs that are then used for nefarious practices around the country including illegal hunting such as dog fighting? How are these places regulated. How many animals are kept? Do they get proper vetinary care including being being pts when required? This is especially important where fighting breeds are concerned. There is currently no reegulation whatsover of these establishments. A recent League against Cruel sports report recently showed that it was"Lads with Dogs" that were involved in most of the crimal activity in relation to wildlife in the UK and not the Hunts.

So rescue centres are backyard hoarders? You're very good at throwing wild accusations out there with no evidence. Most rescues carry out homevisits before rehoming a dog. Are you suggesting then that all rescues get closed down? Would be interesting alright, to see what happens to all of the strays and surrenders in the pound. Proper vet care? Hmmm, well maybe go and see how much these rescues spend at their vets and you'll get the answer to that one.

What regulation is there for hunt kennels?

gozunda

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

So rescue centres are backyard hoarders? You're very good at throwing wild accusations out there with no evidence. Most rescues carry out homevisits before rehoming a dog. Are you suggesting then that all rescues get closed down? Would be interesting alright, to see what happens to all of the strays and surrenders in the pound. Proper vet care? Hmmm, well maybe go and see how much these rescues spend at their vets and you'll get the answer to that one.

What regulation is there for hunt kennels?

No I am referring to the backyard ones that pretend to be "rescue centres". Run from backyards. Not the proper ones. I know of several of these that claim to be rescue centres to take in dogs but whose activities are unregulated and are involved in selling on. I prefer to see an animal PTS than end up in the hands of these individuals.

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

No I am referring to the backyard ones that pretend to be "rescue centres". Run from backyards. Not the proper ones. I know of several of these that claim to be rescue centres to take in dogs but whose activities are unregulated and are involved in selling on. I prefer to see an animal PTS than end up in the hands of these individuals.

Really? Well I'd probably be one of those, I don't sell dogs on though. What constitutes a 'proper one'?

Who regulates hunting kennels?

gozunda

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

Really? Well I'd probably be one of those, I don't sell dogs on though. What constitutes a 'proper one'?

Who regulates hunting kennels?

That's interesting. Who regulates you then?

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

That's interesting. Who regulates you then?

Absolutely nobody, but you're more than welcome to come and look around if you want to. Again, please, what constitutes a 'proper one'?

Who regulates hunting kennels? (3rd time of asking now, its getting boring):D

Whispered

Yes

gozunda wrote: »

What I would like to know is how many Backyard hoarders (aka rescue centres) that take in dogs that are then used for nefarious practices around the country including illegal hunting such as dog fighting? How are these places regulated. How many animals are kept? Do they get proper vetinary care including being being pts when required? This is especially important where fighting breeds are concerned.

I don't understand what this has to do with hunting and the hunts hounds. Surely you realise that nobody here would support any type of rescue involved in "illegal hunting such as dog fighting".

As for unregulated rescues, there are a few rouge ones, (although most of the time legitimate rescues know who these are, and if someone is considering dealing with them a bit of research will show them who to avoid). But the vast majority are ran by people whose dedication is astounding. I can't see what good trying to tarnish the idea of rescues will do in this conversation. They have enough to contend with.

gozunda

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

Absolutely nobody, but you're more than welcome to come and look around if you want to. Again, please, what constitutes a 'proper one'?

Who regulates hunting kennels? (3rd time of asking now, its getting boring):D

Not ignoring your question just it is irrelevant to ask me. How about asking someone who runs a hunting kennel - I don't.

So do you have facts and figures to show how your rescue centre cares for it's animals properly - if there is no regulation then how can we be sure that everything is as it should be?

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

Not ignoring your question just it is irrelevant to ask me. How about asking someone who runs a hunting kennel - I don't.

So do you have facts and figures to show how your rescue centre cares for it's animals properly - if there is no regulation then how can we be sure that everything is as it should be?

Of course its relevant, if theres no regulation, how can we know what the standard of care is?

What sort of facts and figures would you like? You can't be sure, unless you want to come and have a look around, you can also go and talk to my vets - maybe you'd like to pay part of the €2,000 that I owe them for treating the dogs that have come in? I've love to be regulated, then maybe I'd get some funding instead of paying for everything out of my own pocket. I started taking in the dogs because of the numbers of siberian huskies and alaskan malamutes that I saw turning up in pounds around the country. Don't worry, the rescue will be closing down completely very soon, then the sibes and mals can all be pts in the pounds, or dumped and left to fend for themselves:) But thats not your problem is it, not mine either, I've never bred dogs, so I don't really know why I thought I could do some good, but I'm sure the 160 dogs I have taken in and rehomed in the last 2 and a bit years are pretty grateful that I did.

Who regulates the Dogs Trust and the DSPCA? Absolutely nobody, I'm guessing they'd be among the 'proper' ones you refer to?

gozunda

Yes

Whispered wrote: »

I don't understand what this has to do with hunting and the hunts hounds. Surely you realise that nobody here would support any type of rescue involved in "illegal hunting such as dog fighting".

As for unregulated rescues, there are a few rouge ones, (although most of the time legitimate rescues know who these are, and if someone is considering dealing with them a bit of research will show them who to avoid). But the vast majority are ran by people whose dedication is astounding. I can't see what good trying to tarnish the idea of rescues will do in this conversation. They have enough to contend with.

We are talking about regulation to ensure that animals are been treated properly

If backyard rescue centres arn't regulated how does anyone know what's going on and their activities. Btw the rogue ones are not going to advertise what they are doing.

Whispered

Yes

I think that a discussion on rescues and how they should and shouldn't operate would be a very interesting thread in itself. But I fail to see the relevance here.

Is your defence to questions asked about welfare of hunting hounds, on a hunting thread, to question the integrity of the rescues who post here?

Rescues would welcome regulation.

ISDW

gozunda, from what you've posted, I take it that you disagree with organised dog fighting?

Traonach

ISDW wrote: »

Of course its relevant, if theres no regulation, how can we know what the standard of care is?

What sort of facts and figures would you like? You can't be sure, unless you want to come and have a look around, you can also go and talk to my vets - maybe you'd like to pay part of the €2,000 that I owe them for treating the dogs that have come in? I've love to be regulated, then maybe I'd get some funding instead of paying for everything out of my own pocket. I started taking in the dogs because of the numbers of siberian huskies and alaskan malamutes that I saw turning up in pounds around the country. Don't worry, the rescue will be closing down completely very soon, then the sibes and mals can all be pts in the pounds, or dumped and left to fend for themselves:) But thats not your problem is it, not mine either, I've never bred dogs, so I don't really know why I thought I could do some good, but I'm sure the 160 dogs I have taken in and rehomed in the last 2 and a bit years are pretty grateful that I did.

Who regulates the Dogs Trust and the DSPCA? Absolutely nobody, I'm guessing they'd be among the 'proper' ones you refer to?

Excellent work your doing there ISDW:)
Fair play to you!

gozunda

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

Of course its relevant, if theres no regulation, how can we know what the standard of care is?

just it is irrelevant to ask me. Ask someone who runs a hunting kennel - I don't.

ISDW wrote:

What sort of facts and figures would you like? You can't be sure, unless you want to come and have a look around, you can also go and talk to my vets - maybe you'd like to pay part of the €2,000 that I owe them for treating the dogs that have come in? I've love to be regulated, then maybe I'd get some funding instead of paying for everything out of my own pocket. I started taking in the dogs because of the numbers of siberian huskies and alaskan malamutes that I saw turning up in pounds around the country. Don't worry, the rescue will be closing down completely very soon, then the sibes and mals can all be pts in the pounds, or dumped and left to fend for themselves:) But thats not your problem is it, not mine either, I've never bred dogs, so I don't really know why I thought I could do some good, but I'm sure the 160 dogs I have taken in and rehomed in the last 2 and a bit years are pretty grateful that I did.

Who regulates the Dogs Trust and the DSPCA? Absolutely nobody, I'm guessing they'd be among the 'proper' ones you refer to?

Thanks for all that but to be honest anyone can claim anything they want without regulation. The situation doesnt matter - breeding, hoarding or otherwise doesn't really make a difference. Unregulated individuals running animal collection depots from their backyards is completly daft. As you said yourself, without regulation - how can we know what the standard of care is?

You will have to ask the DSPCA and the Dogs Trust who regulates them as I dont work there either. I do know that they are recognised charities that produce published accounts and reports annually.

ISDW

The local dog warden has been here and is happy enough but nothing I say will make any difference to you - I walk the walk and you talk the talk.

Whats your objection anyway to unregulated backyard hoarders taking in dogs and using them for dog fighting? Personally I can't see the difference between one dog tearing another dog apart and a pack of hounds tearing a fox apart.

Lets just say that using a pack of hounds is the best way to control foxes, I'm not saying that, just playing devils advocate. Why does it need an audience? Why can't the hounds go out with handlers and do this, without the need for a load of people on horses following? How is that beneficial in any way?

gozunda

Yes

Whispered wrote: »

I think that a discussion on rescues and how they should and shouldn't operate would be a very interesting thread in itself. But I fail to see the relevance here...

Ref: Hunt Kennels...

ISDW wrote:

...Of course its relevant, if theres no regulation, how can we know what the standard of care is?

Discodog wrote:

...It is about openness, transparency & evidence to substantiate your claims

ISDW wrote:

...who regulates Hunt Kennels?...

So somehow the thread has now moved to regulation and evidence as to the standard of care in establishments with dogs (some posters claimed that this is valid part of the thread) So in so far as I am able I have answered the queries with regard to my own knowledge and experience.

In Backyard "rescue centres" with dogs there is no way of knowing the standard of care been given or exactly what these places are up to.

Some posters have been demanding to know what Hunt kennels are doing and that there be openess and evidence of same

You cannot demand and attempt to intimidate one group over another with regard to standards of care and openess.

gozunda

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

...Lets just say that using a pack of hounds is the best way to control foxes, I'm not saying that, just playing devils advocate. Why does it need an audience? Why can't the hounds go out with handlers and do this, without the need for a load of people on horses following? How is that beneficial in any way?

Good...now we are getting someplace. I would suggest you go hire a horse and find out for yourself what the role of a mounted hunter (aka the audience) actually is

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

Good...now we are getting someplace. I would suggest you go hire a horse and find out for yourself what the role of a mounted hunter (aka the audience) actually is

I can't afford to, all my money goes on feeding my family and the dogs. Why don't you just answer a question for once?

gozunda

Yes

ISDW wrote: »

I can't afford to, all my money goes on feeding my family and the dogs. Why don't you just answer a question for once?

Because you have refuted any answers to your questions I have given based on my personal knowledge and experience. So I suggest you actually go and find out yourself rather than attempting to cause further decension. I have friends not currently employed that put a few euro's aside and take part in hunting by hiring a horse locally - you wont know until you try will you.;)

ISDW

gozunda wrote: »

Because you have refuted any answers to your questions I have given based on my personal knowledge and experience. So I suggest you actually go and find out yourself rather than attempting to cause further decension. I have friends not currently employed that put a few euro's aside and take part in hunting by hiring a horse locally - you wont know until you try will you.;)

What? If you had read my posts, you would see that I did go to hunts when I was younger, so I have seen for myself. You really should go into politics, if you're not already, you are a master at not answering questions and deflecting onto other issues, I bow to your talents:D