Traffic Signs Manual 2010 - Published

Empire o de Sun

It's finally been published.

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=12971&lang=ENG&loc=2635

Had a quick look through it, some new stuff,

adoption of the international "no entry" sign

death of the impearial system, no more dual metric, imperial heights.

signs for cycleways

old national rountes that have become regional route are now signed with yellow bacground.

Bus stops will have a standard sign across the country

Traffic Lights, finally it allows for a red and amber arrow.


bad point, still have the parking sign in a red roundal,

L1011

If they're changing traffic light rules why oh why could they not introduce pre-green amber

Sponge Bob

Damned if they didn't completely ignore my suggested M4/M6 westbound demerge sign.

NFD100

What's the point of this? It will not be read by the local authorities never mind implemented.

Only in Ireland do they make it up as they go along. Signs half way down poles. Filthy dirty, hedges growing around them, pointing wrong way etc etc.....

Complete waste of time.

munchkin_utd

i agree that the mentality of doing stuff by the book in Ireland isnt part of our culture, and that the standards could well be ignored by your 60 year old council worker determined to do things his way.

But, unless there IS a book, then you cant follow it!!

By laying down the standards, you can point at a job being not to the book rather than currently that something doesnt look "right".

whyulittle

Are election posters allowed to be attached to traffic sign poles?

Alun

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

adoption of the international "no entry" sign

About bloody time too.

Nice to see the "correct" no entry sign being adopted at last!

Empire o de Sun

They didn't update the parking signs and clearway sign to the international standard.


I don't like the new Stop Ahead sign. W 040, not following international practice.

etchyed

NFD100 wrote: »

What's the point of this? It will not be read by the local authorities never mind implemented.

Only in Ireland do they make it up as they go along. Signs half way down poles. Filthy dirty, hedges growing around them, pointing wrong way etc etc.....

Complete waste of time.

Yes, everything's a mess, so let's not even bother trying. Marvellous attitude.

etchyed

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

They didn't update the parking signs and clearway sign to the international standard.

So frustrating and a missed opportunity. At one stage we had cycle lane signs and left turn only signs with red circles. They seem to have been ditched for a while now, as presumably somebody realised they mean "No cycling" and "No left turn" everywhere else in the world.

Now we have more progress with the introduction of the standard No Entry design (about the only new thing in this manual that doesn't already have examples of implementation before the actual publication), but still nobody's seen fit to address the issue of tourists scratching their heads and wondering why, according to the signs, there are precious few places where they can park their cars in Ireland.

I don't like the new Stop Ahead sign. W 040, not following international practice.

What is the international practice?

Empire o de Sun

etchyed wrote: »

What is the international practice?

This



or this

Empire o de Sun

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

They didn't update the parking signs and clearway sign to the international standard.

.

I suppose it's a case of one change at a time to reduce the costs to the local authorities, they only need to replace the "no straight ahead" signs with "No Entry" ones this time.

Maybe in a couple of years they'll change the parking ones.

Empire o de Sun

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose it's a case of one change at a time to reduce the costs to the local authorities, they only need to replace the "no straight ahead" signs with "No Entry" ones this time.

Maybe in a couple of years they'll change the parking ones.

Maybe it was down to cost, but to change some and not others?




Though in Kells or is it Navan they have the disabled symbol in a red circle. :rolleyes:


Found it

http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.725221,-6.880049&spn=0.001888,0.005681&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.725295,-6.880077&panoid=qpg2bd6fLiywt9qLcqMrqg&cbp=12,270.35,,0,5.93

Sulmac

I like the idea of a standardised bus stop sign. I presume (or "I'm hopeful") that this will allow more than one operator to use the same stop and give us something resembling an integrated public transport system?

spuddy

"Km/h" ...oops

Lower case "k" is correct, captial "K" is used for computer memory 1K = 1024 bytes.
But the picture has both.

Empire o de Sun

Not just the upper case "K" is wrong there, but in the same sign the "80" is not the correct font at all, compare it to the 80 km/h sign to the right.

icdg

The directional signage is of course the most changed (although we've seen most of the new signage since 2007) although there are a few surprises in there, like the new "Use For" sign. I am amazed that the "NO" signs have survived, the UK dropped them in the late 1980s and now that we have to have two of them (Irish langauge version which only cropped up sometime in the early 2000s) they make even less sense. The "Start of Motorway" sign should now be enough.

Its goodbye imperial system ending a transition that took thirty three years. (You can be there won't be a rush to paint out the feet and inches though).

icdg

icdg wrote: »

I am amazed that the "NO" signs have survived, the UK dropped them in the late 1980s and now that we have to have two of them (Irish langauge version which only cropped up sometime in the early 2000s) they make even less sense. The "Start of Motorway" sign should now be enough.

In most parts of the country, motorways are still a "new" thing, it may just be a case of erecting them on new motorways and not bother to replace them when they deteriorate in the future.

L1011

"Use For" basically had to be invented for the M4/M6 split it seems. Though the example sign is from somewhere way out west if it is real that might have a similarly odd junction layout.

I'm not even sure the one for the M4/M6 meets the standard...

icdg

MYOB wrote: »

"Use For" basically had to be invented for the M4/M6 split it seems. Though the example sign is from somewhere way out west if it is real that might have a similarly odd junction layout.

I'm not even sure the one for the M4/M6 meets the standard...

There wasn't one there last time I checked. But last time I travelled the full lenght of the M4/M6, Kilcock-Kinnegad was still signed to TSM 1996's standards aside from the gantry at J11 which had been replaced when Kinnegad-Kilbeggan was redesignated. The sequence of signs approaching J11 at that time was map (no mini-map as J10 and J11 are right on top of each other), gantry, and butterfly. Most other junctions had the TSM 1996 sequence of mini-map, map, and flag instead of the TSM 2010 sequence of Next Exit, 2xmap, and Exit flag.

The trivia fact here is that M4 Kilcock-Kinnegad was the very last motorway opened to use the 1996 TSM standards and actually opened after the M50 South Eastern Motorway which introduced the infamous and short lived dodgey gantries which thankfully never made it into the TSM.

As an attempt to get back on topic, many of the "example" signs are in fact real examples, so I wouldn't be surprised if this one was real too.

Empire o de Sun

The question is, was any gantry done properly to the 1996 TSM? Which would have looked the same as the UK gantry.

munchkin_utd

am I missing something, or can someone tell me the point of the "Use NXX For" Signs?

surely if a road leads somewhere, then a directional sign to these places (maybe with the town names in brackets or whatever, for major destinations offline from Nxx) should suffice?

L1011

icdg wrote: »

There wasn't one there last time I checked. But last time I travelled the full lenght of the M4/M6, Kilcock-Kinnegad was still signed to TSM 1996's standards aside from the gantry at J11 which had been replaced when Kinnegad-Kilbeggan was redesignated. The sequence of signs approaching J11 at that time was map (no mini-map as J10 and J11 are right on top of each other), gantry, and butterfly. Most other junctions had the TSM 1996 sequence of mini-map, map, and flag instead of the TSM 2010 sequence of Next Exit, 2xmap, and Exit flag.

The trivia fact here is that M4 Kilcock-Kinnegad was the very last motorway opened to use the 1996 TSM standards and actually opened after the M50 South Eastern Motorway which introduced the infamous and short lived dodgey gantries which thankfully never made it into the TSM.

As an attempt to get back on topic, many of the "example" signs are in fact real examples, so I wouldn't be surprised if this one was real too.

Leixlip to Kinnegad was completely resigned over Christmas and there is a "use for" sign to warn people not to use J10. As well as TSM2010 gantries, cantilevers, next exit, mini map, map and so on.

The most notable improvement is at the diverge.

csd

MYOB wrote: »

"Use For" basically had to be invented for the M4/M6 split it seems. Though the example sign is from somewhere way out west if it is real that might have a similarly odd junction layout.

I'm not even sure the one for the M4/M6 meets the standard...

There has been a "Use for" sign for quite some time at the southern end of the N8 (and latterly M8 I presume) directing people to the various attractions off the N25 eastbound.

munchkin_utd wrote:

am I missing something, or can someone tell me the point of the "Use NXX For" Signs?

The main reason I think is probably clutter. If you included every destination on the main direction sign it would be horribly cluttered and impossible to read.

/csd

SeanW

icdg wrote: »

I am amazed that the "NO" signs have survived, the UK dropped them in the late 1980s and now that we have to have two of them (Irish langauge version which only cropped up sometime in the early 2000s) they make even less sense. The "Start of Motorway" sign should now be enough.

Call me a sucker for the dramatic, but I like those "Motorway Ahead" signs. I like the motorways, as it means I can put the boot down. The Motorway Ahead signs give the motorways impending start a fitting flair, a certain panache.

Although the amount of people "new" to motorways is probably lower today, as is the amount of restricted traffic, the signs still give good warning to that traffic to get off the N road before it becomes M. In short, it doesn't hurt. Also where the motorway start coincides with the start of a toll section, as the M4 Eastbound used to do before the McNeads bridge DC in Westmeath was reclassified, it would help people of limited means avoid said toll.

Deleted User wrote: »

In most parts of the country, motorways are still a "new" thing, it may just be a case of erecting them on new motorways and not bother to replace them when they deteriorate in the future.

I sure hope not

Additionally, I agree with the above poster who said they should have put "starting amber" into the traffic light sequence. It would help because obviously most of us drive manual transmission cars.

TDF

Forgive me for my stupid question but does this mean the current no entry signs will be replaced with the international ones? And if so when will they begin?

TDF

TDF wrote: »

Forgive me for my stupid question but does this mean the current no entry signs will be replaced with the international ones? And if so when will they begin?

It can't happen soon enough! IMHO

Next time the LA decide to read it I suppose.

TDF

So it could take a year or more?

L1011

TDF wrote: »

So it could take a year or more?

Try 20 years or more.

murphaph

Certainly a big step in the right direction having this new TSM. Much more detailed than the old one and some of the introductions are very sensible. The issue however as I see it is that without an Irish equivalent of the UK's TSRGD councils will still be free to continue erecting rubbing and failing to erect the proper signage where needed.

I hope I'm wrong, signage has improved dramatically in many parts of Ireland in recent years so here's hoping.

wellbutty

Standardising and documenting the signs is a step in the right direction but I'll be more excited when I see incorrect/misplaced/partially hidden/obsolete/advertising signs being dug up.

Advertising signs must be more tightly controlled, "Mary Murphy's fresh apple tarts 3km ahead", "last stop before the ferry" (halfway between New Ross and Wexford). This rubbish needs to be removed!

icdg

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

The question is, was any gantry done properly to the 1996 TSM? Which would have looked the same as the UK gantry.

Oh that's a good question...I think the only one 100% correct may have been the one that used to be at the N18/N19 junction in Clare. Definitely (at the time) the most western gantry in Ireland by some distance!

The afforementioned M4/N6 gantry was unfortunately not correct, as it used patching - the "N6" was in green instead of blue which it should have been. Likewise there was some dodgey patching on the two gantries leading to M50 J3.

There was an almost correct stacked gantry on the Naas Road, its just been replaced though.

Amtmann

I noticed a new type of sign today on the M8 about 2km south of the M7 interchange.

It's a single, white letter 'e' on a green square background affixed to a pole. Any idea what it signifies?

L1011

The PPP concessionaire has forgotten what Euroroute it is?

icdg

MYOB wrote: »

Leixlip to Kinnegad was completely resigned over Christmas and there is a "use for" sign to warn people not to use J10. As well as TSM2010 gantries, cantilevers, next exit, mini map, map and so on.

The most notable improvement is at the diverge.

Took a short trip on the M4 last night and notice that they'd re-signed Leixlip-Kilcock for the second time in six months!!! Which makes one wonder why they did it the first time (which was only back in September or October). This time there are gantries and cantilevers erected.

They did manage to correct the incorrect signage approaching J5 eastbound which showed the M4 continuing towards Dublin (J5 is in fact its eastern terminal junction), so it wasn't completely a waste of money. Still no end of motorway signs there though (or start of motorway signs in the opposite direction).

As for the new No Entry signs, I wouldn't expect councils to rush out and replace them! The TSM is after all, a direction for the erection of new signs, not one to go out and replace all the existing signs! After all, there are still plenty of pre-1977 imperial signs to be seen once you stray any way off the national roads network.

Empire o de Sun

Would there not be a legal issue. After all prohibition, restrictions etc. have to be leaglly enforceable? otherwise any sign could be put up for parking, no entry etc.

ardmacha

Would there not be a legal issue. After all prohibition, restrictions etc. have to be leaglly enforceable? otherwise any sign could be put up for parking, no entry etc.

The old and new signs are legally enforceable. There is no need for money to be wasted changing signs when there are no many other signs needed.

ardmacha

ardmacha wrote: »

The old and new signs are legally enforceable. There is no need for money to be wasted changing signs when there are no many other signs needed.

They were quick off the mark with replacing the old one way signs with the red circles, I wonder how many crashes they caused!

murphaph

I've never seen the point of having both blue backed "must do" signs AND red roundel "must not do" signs when it comes to direction of travel. In Germany there's no such thing as a "no left turn" etc. sign. They only use blue faced "turn left", "turn right" etc. signs and the "no entry" or "no entry for motorised vehicles" signs.

I think it removes an unnecessary layer of signage IMO and looks much neater. It is after all irrelevant whether or not you're told "you must go straight ahead or turn left" or "you must not turn right". Here's a junction near my place that illustrates how the Germans sign this (note, not everything about German signage enamours me, but it is highly consistent right across the Federal Republic, something Ireland should aspire to.

Oh, can someone point me to the Bus Stop chapter and page please

Empire o de Sun

murphaph wrote: »

I've never seen the point of having both blue backed "must do" signs AND red roundel "must not do" signs when it comes to direction of travel. In Germany there's no such thing as a "no left turn" etc. sign. They only use blue faced "turn left", "turn right" etc. signs and the "no entry" or "no entry for motorised vehicles" signs.

I think it removes an unnecessary layer of signage IMO and looks much neater. It is after all irrelevant whether or not you're told "you must go straight ahead or turn left" or "you must not turn right". Here's a junction near my place that illustrates how the Germans sign this (note, not everything about German signage enamours me, but it is highly consistent right across the Federal Republic, something Ireland should aspire to.

It's called "positive" signage. Much better I think. You know where you can go.

oharach

I really like that positive directional signage.

I hate the German 'Give Way/Yield' signage though. The signs are very unobtrusive compared with Ireland/UK, and there are no painted lines on the road telling you where to stop. Worse, where there is a cycle-only contraflow, the signs are half the size – which makes no sense. I went straight through one once and was nearly killed by a BMW.

murphaph

oharach wrote: »

I really like that positive directional signage.

I hate the German 'Give Way/Yield' signage though. The signs are very unobtrusive compared with Ireland/UK, and there are no painted lines on the road telling you where to stop. Worse, where there is a cycle-only contraflow, the signs are half the size – which makes no sense. I went straight through one once and was nearly killed by a BMW.

German give way signs are almost identical to anywhere else, no? They do paint a thick white line on the road in most places and I suppose it's like the UK and Ireland when there's no line: stop at or before the sign.

I find the fact that a T junction side road joining a "main road" has priority over traffic on the "main road" unless otherwise signed. I think it's more sensible that at any T junction, traffic on the "side road" should yield to traffic on the "main road". At crossroads then I see a certain logic to it.

I find that driving in Germany requires a more detailed knowledge of the rules of the road to avoid crashing into someone. Good in one way but bad in others. At least the Germans don't have the silly give way to traffic entering a roundabout when you're already on it rule, like in Italy!

oharach

murphaph wrote: »

German give way signs are almost identical to anywhere else, no? They do paint a thick white line on the road in most places and I suppose it's like the UK and Ireland when there's no line: stop at or before the sign.

I find that driving in Germany requires a more detailed knowledge of the rules of the road to avoid crashing into someone. Good in one way but bad in others. At least the Germans don't have the silly give way to traffic entering a roundabout when you're already on it rule, like in Italy!

I can only speak for Munich, where painted 'stop' lines are few and far between off the main thoroughfares. Having them is much safer than not.

The 'yield' signs are indeed the same triangles that are commonly used elsewhere – but I don't find they really jump out. I like the Irish 'yield' signs and the international 'STOP' signs.

German drivers are pretty unforgiving if you don't know this or that § of the rules of the road..

chewed

What's the story with the updated No Entry sign being adopted?

I noticed they had them up on the M3/N3 roundabout outside Kells. Will they be replacing all of the signs around the country?

They're still using the old style "no straight ahead" sign on the Athlone bypass as part of the recent upgrades.

chewed

Deleted User wrote: »

They're still using the old style "no straight ahead" sign on the Athlone bypass as part of the recent upgrades.

Typical Ireland! Half ar$ed approach to upgrading!

etchyed

chewed wrote: »

Typical Ireland! Half ar$ed approach to upgrading!

Would you prefer if they spent thousands replacing every single sign in the country simultaneously?

Can't remember which thread it's in, and can't be bothered to look, but someone on here posted information to the effect that the signs are to be changed over gradually as the need to replace them arises. This means that there'll be a significant period (could be around 10 years or more I reckon) during which both are valid. Seems to me the right way to do it.

Nothing particularly Irish about it either. This Stop sign coexisted with the the octagonal one in some European countries for many years.

Skopzz

The last time they replaced signs, they screwed-up big time...The speed limit signs are TINY in size by comparison to the former ones. I wouldn't be surprised if they repeat the same mistake with these 'no entry' signs. Any why not, there's no accountability because the people tasked with ordering/inspecting them are as Michael O'Leary pointed out; 'rotten to the core'. They cannot be fired either.

etchyed

etchyed wrote: »

Would you prefer if they spent thousands replacing every single sign in the country simultaneously?

Can't remember which thread it's in, and can't be bothered to look, but someone on here posted information to the effect that the signs are to be changed over gradually as the need to replace them arises. This means that there'll be a significant period (could be around 10 years or more I reckon) during which both are valid. Seems to me the right way to do it.

Nothing particularly Irish about it either. This Stop sign coexisted with the the octagonal one in some European countries for many years.

I think they would most likely just replace the "no straight ahead" on primary routes in a planned operation over a couple of years and leave all the others to be replaced as needed.

That appears to have been what was done when the old one way (red circle) signs were updated a decade ago, in Athlone town you can still see the old ones on some of the minor roads.

Those bloody signs really spooked me when I first saw one, Everywhere in the world (except Ireland) the rule is; red circle, DO NOT DO WHAT IS IN THE CIRCLE.