Heroin hell!

Threadhead

There's an insane amount of local heroin addicts dying at the moment. Apparently Meals On Wheels was implicated in the bad consignment that came in but now apparently he's ended up dead. It's apparently's all round though and it's hard to get any kind of facts straight.

Walked past the funeral of one of the recent ones this evening, very poor turn out which was sad for a young man. He lives up near me, lovely family but the chap himself was beyond a mess. Really sad state of affairs.

Badgermonkey

If specialist dispensaries with the requisite medical/social checks and balances in place were allowed to prescribe opiates, death from impurities in heroin would not occur in anywhere near the numbers seen.

A lifting of prohibition on certain narcotics should be trialled to allow for a considered medical, academic, sociological and economic appraisal of such a scheme.

It is my belief that blindly adhering to a policy which generates vast profits for evil men at the expense of the vulnerable is intolerable.

It is time for some brave decisions and imaginative solutions.

Davaeo09

If only the headshops were still open, where people were sold safer substances and advised on proper usage... but thats another thread for another time.

Its time people woke up to the social problem in New Park and Hebron, where 90% off the problem is starting...

Davaeo09

Badgermonkey wrote: »

If specialist dispensaries with the requisite medical/social checks and balances in place were allowed to prescribe opiates, death from impurities in heroin would not occur in anywhere near the numbers seen.

A lifting of prohibition on certain narcotics should be trialled to allow for a considered medical, academic, sociological and economic appraisal of such a scheme.

It is my belief that blindly adhering to a policy which generates vast profits for evil men at the expense of the vulnerable is intolerable.

It is time for some brave decisions and imaginative solutions.

If only there were more like you

up for anything

Badgermonkey wrote: »

A lifting of prohibition on certain narcotics should be trialled to allow for a considered medical, academic, sociological and economic appraisal of such a scheme.

It is my belief that blindly adhering to a policy which generates vast profits for evil men at the expense of the vulnerable is intolerable.

Ha! If that happened it would be opening the way to a policy which still generates vast profits for evil men at the expense of the vulnerable and we've seen how that turned out.

Legalising drugs is not going to make the problems created by drugs go away, in my opinion it will make them more widespread. In 100 years time there would be PSAs similar to those educating the general populace about the evils of nicotine. I'd wish they'd had some of those gory ads when I was young. It might have made me think twice about picking up that first cigarette. What happens to the family unit when those members of it who are addicted physically and mentally to a legal drug - It would be like throwing a stone into a pond with the accompanying ripples.

How can you introduce a trial period of allowing certain narcotics and which ones? A trial period indicates that there is a going back if the trial doesn't work. What about the people who can't go back? Surely there is an moral obligation not to get people involved in something which can't be easily reversed?

Badgermonkey

up for anything wrote: »

Ha! If that happened it would be opening the way to a policy which still generates vast profits for evil men at the expense of the vulnerable and we've seen how that turned out.

So the policy I advocate would retain the status quo? I cannot see how you can reach that conclusion, perhaps you could expand on that.

up for anything wrote: »

Legalising drugs is not going to make the problems created by drugs go away, in my opinion it will make them more widespread.

In the context of heroin addiction, it would allow for a holistic approach to the wellbeing of the user. It may encompass counselling and support to help them address the reasons for their dependency, a needle exchange program to significantly reduce the incidence of transmission of infectious disease, regular health check to flag complications which may manifest as a result of chronic opiate usage and the obvious wider social benefit or reducing the criminal behaviour of many heroin addicts.

Davaeo09

up for anything wrote: »

Ha! If that happened it would be opening the way to a policy which still generates vast profits for evil men at the expense of the vulnerable and we've seen how that turned out.

Legalising drugs is not going to make the problems created by drugs go away, in my opinion it will make them more widespread. In 100 years time there would be PSAs similar to those educating the general populace about the evils of nicotine. I'd wish they'd had some of those gory ads when I was young. It might have made me think twice about picking up that first cigarette. What happens to the family unit when those members of it who are addicted physically and mentally to a legal drug - It would be like throwing a stone into a pond with the accompanying ripples.

How can you introduce a trial period of allowing certain narcotics and which ones? A trial period indicates that there is a going back if the trial doesn't work. What about the people who can't go back? Surely there is an moral obligation not to get people involved in something which can't be easily reversed?

Clearly you have no idea how this works, and come on at least try think of a way to make it work instead of "HA"
One things for sure, if DOCTORS and SCIENTISTS create a drug, its almost 100% of the time going to be safer than what you'l get from some shaddy dealer for Athy,Comer etc etc
Add to this then some one in the shop you buy these from can and should advise people about proper usage. Heck even some scaremongering to be extra safe i.e don't take more than 4 of these. (of course there will be the odd idiot who will just ignore those any way)

Any way fact of the matter is, more people have died from drug related problems in the past month in Kilkenny than they did in the year+ the headshops were open... FACT

fabbydabby

Here's my response to your 'FACT', valid now as it was a year ago and probably still so in ten years time. I am not typing it out all again.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65893340&postcount=15

Fluffybums

Sadly the argument for legalise drugs to deal with the problems of illegal drugs is not that simple. The sale of opium was restricted in 1868, prior to that there were opium dens and addicts who still stole to feed their habit. Heoine/diamorphine and morphine are still used clinically, in fact as a pain killer nothing really beats morphine. As for scientists creating safe drugs, don't be fooled, no drug is safe and in fact I would go further than that and say nothing is safe - can't remember who said this but "everything is a poison it is just a question of dose", oxygen is toxic at high purity but we can't live without it. Paracetamol a drug most people take without a thought has a toxic dose about twice that above the max dose listed on the pack, if you OD on it you can live long enough to arrange your own funeral.
Amphetamine is an example of a legal drug that is also a drug of abuse. Benzodiazepines, eg, Valium, have a strong tendency to cause abuse and prior to changes in prescribing practice a large number of people became addicted, I suspect people still are and do. Then of course there is codeine, also an opiate, which is also abused but found in over the counter medicines, though that is being tightened up.

I am in two minds about legalisation, a blanket legalisation would not, in my opinion help though of course it would make the pharma industry happy and make drugs cheaper as you cannot expect them to pay for tolerance and dependency studies (v. expensive and kill a lot of potential psychiatric drugs) and some tox studies if there are drugs which you have just legalised freely available. Then you turn to some controlled legalisation, well as I've shown above a some drugs of abuse are already available in a controlled manner and they still pose a problem.

I really don't know what the answer is; though the status quo is not working, but then simple blanket answers aren't either.

Jinxi

While it is really sad that peoples sons and duaghters are dying from heroin, I think its ridiculous to say that it should be legalised or that it is more prevalent since head shops closed.
Anyone under the age of 50 has been offered/around some illegal drug at some time or other. Very few of us will be offered heroin. Usually because you have to well into the drug scene before you come in contact with heroin. And everyone knows that there is never a happy ending to the story that begins " So I tried some heroin and..."
So what make a person try it? It usually is because they have HUGE emotional and personal issues before. So maybe that is where the concentration needs to be in preventing peoples death from heroin.

Davidian_ie

We probably need to look closely at the Swiss model of dealing with heroin addiction.Our drug policies are not working here and unfortunately change is something not embraced in our health system.It takes up to 5 years for a health policy to be changed or implemented in this country,that is the kind of red tape you have to deal with.We are a great country for doing reports but not for reaching out and helping our fellow man.

http://www.worldradio.ch/wrs/news/video/switzerland-embraces-heroin-assisted-treatment.shtml?12825

discodiva92

Its sad for the family that try to do well for them but come on any one thats uses heroin is an idiot
I dont know anyone thats does such a scummy thing and being honest why would you want to
One poster said most of the people they know take or deal it stay far away so

discodiva92

I hate all this blame game for people taking this poison,people are gone too p.c in Ireland to say it but we all know scum but they blame everything in their life

No one makes them take it

Sunnyisland

IMO The whole response to drug addiction has to change,There has been millions after millions spent on trying to curb illegal drug dealing in countries much more powerful & wealthy than ours, There are countries were you are executed for drug dealing, it still does not stop the trade in illegal narcotics, some other way has to be tried, if not we are all just wasting our time and flogging a dead horse, Its kilkenny/carlow today where will it be tomorrow ?

CiaranC

Badgermonkey wrote: »

If specialist dispensaries with the requisite medical/social checks and balances in place were allowed to prescribe opiates, death from impurities in heroin would not occur in anywhere near the numbers seen.

A lifting of prohibition on certain narcotics should be trialled to allow for a considered medical, academic, sociological and economic appraisal of such a scheme.

It is my belief that blindly adhering to a policy which generates vast profits for evil men at the expense of the vulnerable is intolerable.

It is time for some brave decisions and imaginative solutions.

You are wasting your time talking sense like this in rural Ireland. Clearly its a combination of a "lack of God" and "evil dealers" that are causing these problems. People dont want to know. They'll wring their hands and call all and sundry "scumbags" for the next few decades while the problem gets worse and worse and worse and then finally, when it starts killing THEIR kids they might listen to solutions from places which have actually reduced harm from heroin. Until then, good luck listening to their ignorant, ill-informed rantings.

discodiva92

Why the hell should idiots be given free drugs and schemes etc

The scum generation gets too much in this country as it is

charlemont

The cannabis crackdown of 05/06 created a whole new market for heroin in the countryside, Im shocked myself at how big it got..

Never tried it myself but it killed my best friends and lots of neighbours where I live now..

Jinxi

You mean apart from the fact that they are mothers/fathers/sons/daughters/partners who's lives have spiraled out of control....

The use of heroin cost the average tax payer alot of money in medical care, social welfare payments, court costs, extra policing before you get to rehabilitation schemes.
Not counting the victims of petty crime who occur from the need to feed the habit

fabbydabby

discodiva92 wrote: »

Why the hell should idiots be given free drugs and schemes etc

The scum generation gets too much in this country as it is

One could easily argue that this Irish society which you so readily subscribe to is the one which created the scum generation.

We're an island. Stopping this sh!te getting in in the first place should be easy. Why isn't it?

Raze_them_all

fabbydabby wrote: »

One could easily argue that this Irish society which you so readily subscribe to is the one which created the scum generation.

We're an island. Stopping this sh!te getting in in the first place should be easy. Why isn't it?

We do not have the naval fleet to stop it. Drugs will get in. infact I'd estimate 80-90% of drugs sent to ireland make it to the streets

Jinxi

The fact we are an island makes it harder. think of all the little coves along the coast you could use to smuggle in bales of drugs.
Also, I don't think the crack down on hash made the issue. Most of the hash users I know grew out of smoking the stuff in their twenties. The rest went on to enjoy other recreational drugs. The really addictive/unbalanced ones go on to grow a dependancy on other drugs and seek harder and more exreme highs

Badgermonkey

Jinxi wrote: »

The use of heroin cost the average tax payer alot of money in medical care, social welfare payments, court costs, extra policing before you get to rehabilitation schemes.

Court costs & extra policing

The suggestion I made would significantly reduce the incidence of crime committed to fund a habit, thus freeing up resources within the criminal justice system, including a reduction in the €70,000+ per annum cost of housing a prisoner in an Irish jail.

Medical care

It would reduce the burden on hospitals and ambulance services dealing with acute and chronic admissions as a result of impure street grade heroin, infectious disease and other complications common in those who consume heroin intravenously.

Social Welfare

It would increase the possibility of those with a dependence on heroin eventually being able to hold down some form of employment, as the pschological and counselling aspect of treatment would involve the user, their support network and families seeking a way of normalising their lives, to allow them to regain control of what the drug has taken from them.

There is no 'magic bullet' solution to an immensely complex problem, I'm not advocating some drug free for all but the current policy is a failure which has benefited no one but organised criminal gangs who cannot ignore the immense profit the importation of heroin provides them with.

They do not give a damn about those they sell to and they do not give a damn about the society that pays for the costs of their tax free business.

scatty

it seems that the reports of the death of certain person in wheel chair are untrue ...................

Maxiebaby

Plug wrote: »

Its confirmed, he died in Prison.

ah 'Deals on wheels' is NOT dead, he's sitting on the landing outside his cell watching the inmates go by!

as for the ref to God..... wow that touched a nerve!.... and I didn't mean it as in if you don't have God ur an addict.... just to clear that up! this may explain it a bit better... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JgpARGvBnc :rolleyes:

Raze_them_all

Please stop bringing any refrence of religion or gods into a discussion. You cannot have a logical discussion once they are brought into conversation.

up for anything

Badgermonkey wrote: »

So the policy I advocate would retain the status quo? I cannot see how you can reach that conclusion, perhaps you could expand on that.


In the context of heroin addiction, it would allow for a holistic approach to the wellbeing of the user. It may encompass counselling and support to help them address the reasons for their dependency, a needle exchange program to significantly reduce the incidence of transmission of infectious disease, regular health check to flag complications which may manifest as a result of chronic opiate usage and the obvious wider social benefit or reducing the criminal behaviour of many heroin addicts.

It puts it in the hands of the Irish government. I'm not sure there is much to choose between the 'drug barons' and our corrupt politicians.

As to your first post you said

If specialist dispensaries with the requisite medical/social checks and balances in place were allowed to prescribe opiates, death from impurities in heroin would not occur in anywhere near the numbers seen.

A lifting of prohibition on certain narcotics should be trialled to allow for a considered medical, academic, sociological and economic appraisal of such a scheme.

You didn't make it clear that the lifting of prohibition on certain narcotics was in order to treat people that were already addicted. I read it as a lifting of the prohibition for everyone. Apologies.

Maxiebaby

Davaeo09 wrote: »

If only the headshops were still open, where people were sold safer substances and advised on proper usage... but thats another thread for another time.

Its time people woke up to the social problem in New Park and Hebron, where 90% off the problem is starting...

Hebron Park is where they tend to gather but the majority are not from there!.... with the exception of a few houses up there the rest of the residents are lovely decent people.... the place is spray painted at the moment, they were caught on camera and NONE are from there!....

up for anything

Davaeo09 wrote: »

Clearly you have no idea how this works, and come on at least try think of a way to make it work instead of "HA"
One things for sure, if DOCTORS and SCIENTISTS create a drug, its almost 100% of the time going to be safer than what you'l get from some shaddy dealer for Athy,Comer etc etc
Add to this then some one in the shop you buy these from can and should advise people about proper usage. Heck even some scaremongering to be extra safe i.e don't take more than 4 of these. (of course there will be the odd idiot who will just ignore those any way)

Any way fact of the matter is, more people have died from drug related problems in the past month in Kilkenny than they did in the year+ the headshops were open... FACT

Why should I think of a way to make it work? I don't want it to work. Just because a drug is created by doctors and scientists and may be safer than buying from the creep on the corner doesn't make it right. The reason more people have died this month than when the headshops were open was because it was a bad/too pure batch of heroin on sale. I thought part of the reason the headshops closed down was because it was becoming apparent that there were deaths due to taking the headshops' products.

It may be FACT but it's a skewed FACT. Ha!

Badgermonkey

It was frankly a ridiculous situation whereby headshops were within their rights to sell psychoactive substances with no regulation or evaluation of the products pharmacology.

The fact that Joe Duffy and Liveline seemed to be directly influencing government drugs policy was also a somewhat depressing development.

Plug

Maxiebaby wrote: »

ah 'Deals on wheels' is NOT dead, he's sitting on the landing outside his cell watching the inmates go by!

as for the ref to God..... wow that touched a nerve!.... and I didn't mean it as in if you don't have God ur an addict.... just to clear that up! this may explain it a bit better... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JgpARGvBnc :rolleyes:

Fairly sure he is. I heard it from a load of people now including some of his friends and a neighbour of his.