Is there complete separation of church and state in rep of Ireland ?

KeithAFC

I don't think 90% of this forum is atheist at all. I'd say there is a lot of Agnostics.

Ghost Estate

gurramok wrote: »

I was brainwashed in a Catholic run primary school. At age 4 in my first year and subsequent years, we were made to learn off by heart the Hail Mary and Our Father prayers which were said before the day began and when the day ended. Something like a Madrassa would have been proud of in the equivalent Muslim faith.

Also we were forced to go to confession and church regularly. This was in the 80's.

Thankfully as I grew up, I threw off those shackles of mind control and I can think freely on my own now

Poor you

My heart goes out to you.

You say it like they pulled the brain out of your head and threw it in the washing machine with an extra potent dose of Daz.

amovingstatue

I remember about 3 years ago watching the Dáil sessions live steam for the first time, and being able to see right from the beginning when the ceann comhairle enters the chamber and everyone gets on their feet for the opening ritual - during which they bless themselves, the ceann comhairle says the prayer then they bless themselves again. Not everyone does it - you can probably imagine who's who in that regard.

Not knowing much about these things, I was truly shocked to see it happen to be honest.

RichieC

partyatmygaff wrote: »

LOL

How pathetic. Brainwashed by whom exactly considering I am not a Catholic?

Surprising that you feel capable of calling billions of people and a world famous entertainer pedophiles yet cannot answer and choose to spout drivel instead when I ask you for proof.

*Picture of Iranian president*

THERE ARE NO PEDOPHILES IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!! AND MICHEAL JACKSON DID NOT FONDLE LITTLE BOYS!

gurramok

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Poor you

My heart goes out to you.

You say it like they pulled the brain out of your head and threw it in the washing machine with an extra potent dose of Daz.

It felt like that, all against my will.

Ghost Estate

gurramok wrote: »

It felt like that, all against my will.

all of school was against my will. but i'm not bitter about it now.

RichieC

Ghost Estate wrote: »

all of school was against my will. but i'm not bitter about it now.

Education is one thing, being thought to fear a monster living in the sky judging us is an entirely different thing.

partyatmygaff

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Poor you

My heart goes out to you.

You say it like they pulled the brain out of your head and threw it in the washing machine with an extra potent dose of Daz.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056074758

*cough*

RichieC wrote: »

*Picture of Iranian president*

THERE ARE NO PEDOPHILES IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!! AND MICHEAL JACKSON DID NOT FONDLE LITTLE BOYS!

Wow. I truly have no words to describe that post.

So I suppose this will have to suffice.

gurramok

Ghost Estate wrote: »

all of school was against my will. but i'm not bitter about it now.

Did you want to be thick when you grew up? Guess not, you wanted to get educated at school.

If you were happy to be brainwashed by religion, that's your choice. I and countless others didn't have the choice. Roll on secular schools to have an even playing field, excuse the pun.

dilbert2

RichieC wrote: »

Education is one thing, being thought to fear a monster living in the sky judging us is an entirely different thing.

Indeed, education is always a valuable concept.

Religious indoctrination often starts as soon as children are in their first years of school. It is to be honest a form of propaganda peddling by the Catholic church in attempting to ensure that there is another generation ready to embrace mass, keep priests in employment through the collection plate and fill up the pews every Sunday.

I have nothing against anybody believing in god in their own personal time, but surely in a civilised and enlightened society we would not allow religious loons to indoctrinate our children starting as early as primary school, terrorising them with tales of the devil and the bogeyman, when they can't even comprehend the world independently on their own at such an early age of development.

RichieC

partyatmygaff wrote: »

So I suppose this will have to suffice.

Funny you should post a facepalm, son.

Your state of denial has me in a similar pose.

MagicMarker

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Neither Michael Jackson nor any true member of any Christian Church are pedophiles.

lol

If you include contraception users and any partakers in pre-marital sex then your numbers diminish rather quickly, but of course we'll ignore that.

partyatmygaff

RichieC wrote: »

Funny you should post a facepalm, son.

Your state of denial has me in a similar pose.

Denial of what? What the hell are you even talking about? You just keep posting on and on saying nothing of any value.

MagicMarker wrote: »

lol

Are all your posts either "lol" "facepalm" or ":rolleyes:" because every single time i've seen you make a post it's been just that.

RichieC

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Denial of what? What the hell are you even talking about? You just keep posting on and on saying nothing of any value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson


Happy reading, son.

dilbert2

partyatmygaff wrote: »

nor any true member of any Christian Church are pedophiles.

I think a pig just flew by my window there. :rolleyes:

Ah I get it now, so when they turn to paedophilia "they are no longer one of us - or they couldn't possibly be one us". How convinent, although the sort of reasoning in this statement only seems to come up when such cases are made public - often by the same people (in the church) who did nothing to help such children in the first place. :rolleyes:

MagicMarker

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Are all your posts either "lol" "facepalm" or ":rolleyes:" because every single time i've seen you make a post it's been just that.

You missed a bit.

partyatmygaff

RichieC wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_child_sexual_abuse_accusations_against_Michael_Jackson


Happy reading, son.

*sigh*

Re-read my original post

"Neither Michael Jackson nor any true member of any Christian Church are pedophiles. "

Scumbag pedophiles are not true members of any branch of Christianity that I know of. They are scum who abused their position of influence to carry out their crimes. They are not Christians as they do not adhere to even the very basic elements of their faith.

As for the Michael Jackson case it's common knowledge that the accuser was a liar whose family had a history of extortion and lies. Had you even read the Wikipedia article you would have known that.

KeithAFC

For sorry for anyone of you who were abused by the priests and the Catholic church. I don't think you should trust them in anything they say.

RichieC

:pac:


sure thing, bubba.

A letter sent by the Vatican to Irish bishops in 1997 shows that they blocked attempts to report pedophile priests to the police. A new documentary reveals the contents of the letter and claims that, on two occasions, the Vatican intervened and stopped attempts made by Irish bishops to defrock pedophile priests.

The letter was obtained by Ireland’s state broadcaster RTE and details the Vatican’s rejection of an initiative introduced in 1996 by Irish churches, which would see religious orders help police identify pedophile priests.

partyatmygaff

dilbert2 wrote: »

I think a pig just flew by my window there. :rolleyes:

Ah I get it now, so when they turn to paedophilia "they are no longer one of us - or they couldn't possibly be one us". How convinent, although the sort of reasoning in this statement only seems to come up when such cases are made public - often by the same people (in the church) who did nothing to help such children in the first place. :rolleyes:

It's quite simple really. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. A pedophile is not a follower of Jesus Christ regardless of what they may call themselves ergo they are not Christians.

MagicMarker wrote: »

You missed a bit.

You edited the post after I quoted your post.

Tordelback

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It's quite simple really. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. A pedophile is not a follower of Jesus Christ regardless of what they may call themselves ergo they are not Christians.

What about a thief? A tax-collector? A prostitute? A murderer? Is it just paedos God doesn't like? (Cue 'then why did he make so many of them, and give them jobs, and protect them from prosecution?')

I've clearly misunderstood this whole Christianity thing, I thought you hated the sin and loved the sinner.

partyatmygaff

Tordelback wrote: »

(Cue 'then why did he make so many of them, and give them jobs, and protect them from prosecution?')

Are you seriously trying to say that the majority of Catholic priests are paedophiles? A tiny minority now equates to "so many"?

I've clearly misunderstood this whole Christianity thing, I thought you hated the sin and loved the sinner.

True. But a paedophile is not a Christian.

You seem to be implying that Christians hate sinners. I never said that, I only said that paedophiles are not Christians. Nothing more.

MagicMarker

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It's quite simple really. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. A pedophile is not a follower of Jesus Christ regardless of what they may call themselves ergo they are not Christians.

What about the pope, is he a ''true'' christian?

partyatmygaff wrote: »

You edited the post after I quoted your post.

You posted a few minutes after I posted, if I edited my post after you quoted me then it would say so.

So tell me, are people who use contraception ''true'' christians? Or those who have sex before marriage?

RichieC

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to say that the majority of Catholic priests are paedophiles? A tiny minority now equates to "so many"?

only about 10 or 20%.. the rest are colluders.

partyatmygaff

MagicMarker wrote: »

What about the pope, is he a ''true'' christian?

The pope of which Church exactly?

You posted a few minutes after I posted, if I edited my post after you quoted me then it would say so.

I quoted your post and went off to work on something else before coming back to finish the post. You know you edited your post after posting it, I don't see why you're lying over something so petty.

So tell me, are people who use contraception ''true'' christians?

Depends entirely on the denomination of Christianity.

MagicMarker

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The pope of which Church exactly?

I quoted your post and went off to work on something else before coming back to finish the post. You know you edited your post after posting it, I don't see why you're lying over something so petty.


Depends entirely on the denomination of Christianity.

It's unfortunate that you feel the need to side step my very simple questions and then accuse me of lying in the process.

Not very christian like of you...

partyatmygaff

RichieC wrote: »

only about 10 or 20%.. the rest are colluders.

You do realise how many people you're defaming here, don't you?

"only about 10 or 20%" doesn't exactly sound very accurate or well researched and saying something as outlandish as "the rest are colluders" simply is unacceptable.

I can guarantee that if someone said that "10 or 20% of atheists sell heroin.. the rest are users" there would be uproar and mobs of people condemning the injustice of it all. Yet somehow you see it reasonable to accuse thousands if not millions of people as being paedophiles.

partyatmygaff

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's unfortunate that you feel the need to side step my very simple questions and then accuse me of lying in the process.

It's not an accusation. I'm certain of it, you edited your post in between the time of when I began my post and completed my post. It really isn't something that warrants lying.

I haven't sidestepped any of your questions either, where are you getting that from?

starlit

Yes, the state and the church are seperate entities in Ireland. The state controls and influences the country more cause of the government and constitution. The church might have objections when it comes to certain laws when it involves religion and humanity rights maybe. The church wouldn't have a strong an influence of the country of Ireland except in the church not so much outside it depending on the parishioners beliefs.
When it comes to marriage, baptisim, communion, confirmation and abortion would be likely the only time the church will interveen and perhaps in catholic schools. The thing is God is not part of the constitution of Ireland, God is seen as seperate from the constitution and the State laws of Ireland. God doesn't influence or dictate what is said in the constitution, God is only influcenced in one written document and thats the bible! So ya the state and the church are seperate!

MagicMarker

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It's not an accusation. I'm certain of it, you edited your post in between the time of when I began my post and completed my post. It really isn't something that warrants lying.

I haven't sidestepped any of your questions either, where are you getting that from?

I never said I didn't edit my post, so where did I lie?

Okay, I'll make my questions easier for you. Is the RC pope a true christian, and are RC's who engage in pre-marital sex and use contraception true christians?

Pace2008

partyatmygaff wrote: »

"Neither Michael Jackson nor any true member of any Christian Church are pedophiles. "

Scumbag pedophiles are not true members of any branch of Christianity that I know of. They are scum who abused their position of influence to

Whilst I strongly disagree with countless aspects of certain Christian sects - Roman Catholicism for example - I'd agree that that there's not much in the various tenets that endorses acts of child molestation.

If we're to be exclusive, though, I think 20 years down the line "True Catholics" could essentially be considered a fringe group their numbers will be so low. As such, I don't think the Church should have any right to promote a Catholic ethos in the vast majority of the country's schools.

partyatmygaff

MagicMarker wrote: »

Okay, I'll make my questions easier for you.

Less of the condescending tone.

Is the RC pope a true christian

The RC pope was not himself a paedophile. He prevented the course of justice and protected paedophiles under a misguided notion of protecting the interests of the Church. He has apologised to all the abuse victims but whether or not that is enough is a whole other topic. If he is genuinely repentant then yes I would say he is a true Christian.

, and are RC's who engage in pre-marital sex and use contraception true christians?

If they genuinely repent then yes. As for contraception, views on that differ from denomination to denomination.

gurramok

I think posters who are presently living in sin should cease their ungodly ways and get confession asap. (also burn those condoms!)

True Catholics are those who have disassociated themselves from the highlighted wrongdoings of the church in the child abuse scandals. Perhaps they should start a new church as the present one is still trying to deny the rights of the abused at every turn. Nearly every scandal that has been revealed about child abuse has not been revealed by the Church at the first instance but by the victims.

And on this, the Church(any religion) should not have an influence in children's schools as they cannot be trusted with kids.

MagicMarker

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Less of the condescending tone.


The RC pope was not himself a paedophile. He prevented the course of justice and protected paedophiles under a misguided notion of protecting the interests of the Church. He has apologised to all the abuse victims but whether or not that is enough is a whole other topic. If he is genuinely repentant then yes I would say he is a true Christian.

If they genuinely repent then yes. As for contraception, views on that differ from denomination to denomination.

Did the pope apologise for covering it all up? I don't think so, so is he still a true christian?

I already specified roman catholics.

So if a RC uses contraception are they a true christian?

If a pedo priest repents is he a true christian?

Ghost Estate

MagicMarker wrote: »

So if a RC uses contraception are they a true christian?

*imagines a tiny remote controlled car trying to move while wrapped in a johnny*

partyatmygaff

MagicMarker wrote: »

Did the pope apologise for covering it all up? I don't think so, so is he still a true christian?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7069664.ece

So if a RC uses contraception are they a true christian?

If they do, they disagree with the Catholic Church and should move to a denomination whose beliefs they agree with.

If a pedo priest repents is he a true christian?

If they are genuine in their repentance and give a heartfelt apology then yes. However that is not to say they should be free from punishment. They should be permanently disallowed from holding any clerical position and they should be punished to the maximum extent allowed by civil law.

MagicMarker

partyatmygaff wrote: »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7069664.ece

That's very long, can you quote the part where it says ''I'm sorry that I tried to cover up child sexual abuse''?

Cheers

partyatmygaff wrote: »

If they do, they disagree with the Catholic Church and should move to a denomination whose beliefs they agree with.

Ah, I see, they're not a ''true'' christian if they're a catholic and use rubbers, but they are a true christian if they're a mennonite and use rubbers.

Hmm, I hope I'm not the only one who sees the highly retarded logic behind that.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

If they are genuine in their repentance and give a heartfelt apology then yes. However that is not to say they should be free from punishment. They should be permanently disallowed from holding any clerical position and they should be punished to the maximum extent allowed by civil law.

So what you're saying is, I can rape children for a couple of decades, and so long as I feel sorry about it I still get to go to heaven and indulge myself in eternal bliss? Well isn't god just swell!?

GoldRush4821

Considering primary and secondary schools which force prayers/mass/religion classes etc... onto kids, you can hardly call it a secular society.

GoldRush4821

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's very long, can you quote the part where it says ''I'm sorry that I tried to cover up child sexual abuse''?

Cheers



Ah, I see, they're not a ''true'' christian if they're a catholic and use rubbers, but they are a true christian if they're a mennonite and use rubbers.

Hmm, I hope I'm not the only one who sees the highly retarded logic behind that.



So what you're saying is, I can rape children for a couple of decades, and so long as I feel sorry about it I still get to go to heaven and indulge myself in eternal bliss? Well isn't god just swell!?

Pretty much. Christianity teaches that their God is forgiving and that if you accept responsibility for what you have done, and repent, then you can make it to heaven just the same as someone who has lived a morally good life. That's the effed up thing.

partyatmygaff

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's very long, can you quote the part where it says ''I'm sorry that I tried to cover up child sexual abuse''?

Cheers

I'm in the middle of designing a PCB and writing an essay on a Shakespearean play. I haven't got the time to re-read the letter.

Ah, I see, they're not a ''true'' christian if they're a catholic and use rubbers,

Did I even say that or are you just taking a whole different meaning from my words than what you know was intended? There are many branches of Christianity, they all have some universal beliefs with regard to the core values of Christianity but each slight nuances on issues such as contraception. You seem to be implying that Catholicism is the only denomination of Christianity.

Hmm, I hope I'm not the only one who sees the highly retarded logic behind that.

Can you ever make a post without being condescending or getting nasty? It's not a nice personality trait.

So what you're saying is, I can rape children for a couple of decades, and so long as I feel sorry about it I still get to go to heaven and indulge myself in eternal bliss? Well isn't god just swell!?

Way to completely misunderstand me.

Unfortunately most paedophiles are unrepentant. I was merely talking of a hypothetical situation in which a former paedophile genuinely repents their crimes. Saying "Ah yeah, Sorry about all of that" doesn't count as genuine repentance.

I'm off for tonight. I'm exhausted and i've still got some work to do before I go off to bed.

strobe

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't think 90% of this forum is atheist at all. I'd say there is a lot of Agnostics.

Or probably a lot of agnostic atheists.

gurramok

GoldRush4821 wrote: »

Pretty much. Christianity teaches that their God is forgiving and that if you accept responsibility for what you have done, and repent, then you can make it to heaven just the same as someone who has lived a morally good life. That's the effed up thing.

I've often found the most hypocritical people are those that went to church. They go to mass and be lovey dovey but for the other 6 days of the week they can be the most downright obnoxious people one would ever come across.

On the other hand, those who never went to mass i've often found to be decent good natured people who will never pass judgement on you and will often help you out when you are down.

Ghost Estate

gurramok wrote: »

I've often found the most hypocritical people are those that went to church. They go to mass and be lovey dovey but for the other 6 days of the week they can be the most downright obnoxious people one would ever come across.

On the other hand, those who never went to mass i've often found to be decent good natured people who will never pass judgement on you and will often help you out when you are down.

I'm tempted to start going to mass to find out if you are right..

partyatmygaff

gurramok wrote: »

I've often found the most hypocritical people are those that went to church. They go to mass and be lovey dovey but for the other 6 days of the week they can be the most downright obnoxious people one would ever come across.

On the other hand, those who never went to mass i've often found to be decent good natured people who will never pass judgement on you and will often help you out when you are down.

I've often found the most arrogant people to be those that didn't go to Church. They don't go to mass and spend all 7 days of the week forcing abortions on people, having drunk driving races around primary schools, stealing and worst of all is that they can be the most downright obnoxious people that one could ever come across.

On the other hand, those who go to mass i've often found to be decent good natured people who will never pass judgement on you and will help you out when you are down.



Now, compare my post to yours and tell me what's wrong with both of our posts?




P.S. Before you make another "I was asked for my religion today"-esque post let it be clear that my post was merely created to provide comparison to your own. It does not represent my views or that of anyone elses.

KeithAFC

strobe wrote: »

Or probably a lot of agnostic atheists.

Agnostics are a bit different from Atheists.

MagicMarker

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Did I even say that or are you just taking a whole different meaning from my words than what you know was intended? There are many branches of Christianity, they all have some universal beliefs with regard to the core values of Christianity but each slight nuances on issues such as contraception. You seem to be implying that Catholicism is the only denomination of Christianity.

My question was very simple and I even clarified it for you a second time by specifying a denomination. So either you believe a RC using contraception is a true christian or they are not.

Okay, I'll make the question even easier for you by using more than one denomination.

Assuming they adhere to all other aspects of their religion....

1. Do you think a RC using contraception is a true christian?
2. Do you think a mennonite using contraception is a true christian?

And to make simpler again, I'll clarify that the RC church is against contraception, and the mennonites are not against contraception.

So, I'd really appreciate it if you provided simple answers to my simple questions, a yes or no to both would suffice.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Unfortunately most paedophiles are unrepentant. I was merely talking of a hypothetical situation in which a former paedophile genuinely repents their crimes. Saying "Ah yeah, Sorry about all of that" doesn't count as genuine repentance.

Okay, got ya, I can rape children but will get to heaven only if I'm really REALLY sorry. Thanks for clearing that up.

strobe

KeithAFC wrote: »

Agnostics are a bit different from Atheists.

If you don't believe in a god you are an atheist. If you don't claim to know if there is a god or not you are an agnostic. If you don't believe there is a god but you don't claim to know if there is one or not you are an agnostic atheist. If you believe there is a god but you don't claim to know there is one you are an agnostic theist.

It isn't you are either an agnostic or an atheist or a theist. Agnosticism and atheism aren't mutually exclusive. One deals with belief and the other deals with knowledge.

gurramok

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I've often found the most arrogant people to be those that didn't go to Church. They don't go to mass and spend all 7 days of the week forcing abortions on people, having drunk driving races around primary schools, stealing and worst of all is that they can be the most downright obnoxious people that one could ever come across.

On the other hand, those who go to mass i've often found to be decent good natured people who will never pass judgement on you and will help you out when you are down.

Now, compare my post to yours and tell me what's wrong with both of our posts?

My post is better, more informed and without any mind control influencing said post :)

partyatmygaff wrote: »

P.S. Before you make another "I was asked for my religion today"-esque post let it be clear that my post was merely created to provide comparison to your own. It does not represent my views or that of anyone elses.

We keep meeting on Religious threads, howiya

partyatmygaff

MagicMarker wrote: »

My question was very simple and I even clarified it for you a second time by specifying a denomination. So either you believe a RC using contraception is a true christian or they are not.

You're just being obtuse now.

Okay, I'll make the question even easier for you by using more than one denomination.

One more time and i'm not replying to you.

Assuming they adhere to all other aspects of their religion....

1. Do you think a RC using contraception is a true christian?
2. Do you think a mennonite using contraception is a true christian?

Both RCs and Mennonites are branches of Christianity. As Christian denominations as a whole have differing views on contraception you need to include the denomination in question when discussing Christianity and Contraception.

As such
1. No they are not true Catholics.
2. They are true Mennonites.

- Views on contraception differ from denomination to denomination. Views on issues such as child abuse rarely if ever vary from denomination to denomination.

Okay, got ya, I can rape children but will get to heaven only if I'm really REALLY sorry. Thanks for clearing that up.

You understand me perfectly well (At least I hope so) but you are deliberately changing the meaning of what I said to suit your own personal agenda and to appeal to populist thinking on AH.

You're trying to make it out to be that Christians can commit heinous acts on the basis that "Ah sure, I can confess later" which is not the case. True repentance is unqualified repentance. You can't plan to repent for something you're planning on doing.

partyatmygaff

gurramok wrote: »

My post is better, more informed and without any mind control influencing said post :)

Better because it's a load of generalising rubbish or better in what regard?

More informed... yet it's full of wild generalisations. Yes, that makes perfect sense.

Mind control... by the Catholic Church because i'm apparently a "Catherlick" preacher whose brainwashed and is trying to brainwash poor free old gurramok. All of that despite me having visited a Catholic Church at most three times in my entire life.

We keep meeting on Religious threads, howiya

Stop winking at me. It's 1:30AM on a monday morning, bit creepy, don't you think?