Religion and the Cork plane crash

Liberalbrehon

PDN wrote: »

You can win as a humanist, but probably not if you're the kind of humanist who thinks it's clever to punch people and tell them to F off.

Life sucks like that.

I'm not, very gentle I am, but in that situation, when the last person that I see is a man with a dog collar trying to absolve me of sins or such rubbish, I think I have the right to be angry. I'd rather be left alone with my final thoughts than have that action performed on me.

Dades

PDN wrote: »

But you cannot expect public policy to be dictated to cater for the feelings of the tiny segment of the population who are as sensitive about this as you.

No, but policy could be affected by the not-so-tiny segment of the population that are not catholic.

Again, I don't have a real beef with what happened, but I wanted to point this out.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

But you cannot expect public policy to be dictated to cater for the feelings of the tiny segment of the population who are as sensitive about this as you.

If you look around, you'll notice that it's the religious people who've turned offense-taking into quite a successful cottage-industry.

Secularism isn't there to promote atheism, it's there to try to moderate the easily-combustible passions of religious people.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

If you look around, you'll notice that it's the religious people who've turned offense-taking into quite a successful cottage-industry.

So that makes it OK for atheists too? Don't you think we could all rise above that kind of stuff?

Secularism isn't there to promote atheism, it's there to try to moderate the easily-combustible passions of religious people.

Actually, as a secularist myself, I think we should be seeking to moderate the easily-combustible passions of both religious and non-religious. I know it isn't always a popular opinion round these parts - but neither side is totally innocent when it comes to this.

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

Could you explain how a priest giving the last rites to crash victims in Cork tampered in any aspect of your life?

Hmmmm. I shall now rise above the temptation to condescend and rail about the immaculate English I have used and the inability of those of lower intelligence to grasp my point..
and with that done...
If the magic man / priest were to give me the last rites I would be annoyed more than a little that consequent to my being baptised, run through all the sacrements, had the bejaysas scared out of me by various teachers telling me about hell and demons alongside my A,B,Cs up until my leaving cert , I then, in my final moments, having defected from this sh1te and shook off the horse sh1t of indoctrination would have the God Squad come wandering back in and tampering in my death as well as my life....
Clear?

axer

PDN wrote: »

But you cannot expect public policy to be dictated to cater for the feelings of the tiny segment of the population who are as sensitive about this as you.

We dont know what the true population of catholics is in Ireland due to the census mammy effect so you cannot say what is a tiny segment or not. If we were to go by the actions of people I would say that maybe catholicism is the minority.

PDN wrote: »

Maybe you could carry a card in your wallet, similar to the ones JWs have requesting that they do not receive blood transfusions?

Or maybe those that do want a particular service should carry a card to say in the event of an accident please contact a local priest. JW situation is different since blood transfusions save lives - it is an emergency treatment. Voodoo magic doesnt save lives and is not an emergency treatment.

PDN wrote: »

Ah, the dilemmas of politics.

I can see a mentally tortured atheist standing indecisively at the polling booth. If he votes Labour then maybe the Government will promote abortion legislation and so the human race will be rid of a whole heap of parasitical unborn babies. But he also knows that if he votes Labour then priests might still be allowed to clamber over airplane wreckage and to gleefully force poor persecuted atheists to receive the last rites. Such a moral dilemma is worthy of a novel by Zola or Dostoyevsky!

Sounds more like a religious moral dilemma by your use of emotive language.

axer

Ghost Buster wrote: »

would have the God Squad come wandering back in and tampering in my death as well as my life....

Trying you catch you when you are vulnerable again.

gbee

Just a little story.

My sister in-law was vehemently anti religion, many times she said to me she did not want any of them feckers in frocks around her when she died.

Eventually scumming to a long illness, I was disappointed the last time I saw her to see she had embraced all that she hated; I knew the end was near, and it was.

I wonder what I'll do when my time comes.

Maybe I'll open a thread in the paranormal and let ye know.

Waking-Dreams

PDN wrote: »

Actually, as a secularist myself, I think we should be seeking to moderate the easily-combustible passions of both religious and non-religious. I know it isn't always a popular opinion round these parts - but neither side is totally innocent when it comes to this.

Neither side is totally innocent but aren’t the passions of the non-religious usually more geared toward wanting religion not being granted special privileges or special treatment in society? Compare this with the easily-combustible passions of many religious who feel they are being oppressed as a result of this new shift. They don't want there to be a level playing field but a (traditional) system which favours their beliefs.

Secular societies are not going to be utopias but they’re a step in the right direction, removing the influence of an institution which remains enthralled to myths dating from an ignorant and illiterate past. Religion has resisted so much scientific progress over the course of history, gradually retreating bit by bit as its tenets become even more redundant and out-dated by modernity.

Look, people can believe whatever they want to so long those beliefs don't impinge of the freedoms of others. Of course, that's always what is argued over. The religious defend their actions by saying that they are trying to defend others from harm or just trying to help console them, thereby claiming not only a monopoly on moral judgement, but the right to decide on others’ behalf what is good for them.

But the desire for religion being given no special treatment gets labelled as fundamentalist/militant atheism by some very insecure theists. A lot of the theistic objections to secularism are usually just sensationalist scaremongering, intended to demonise secularism further.

I would conjecture that the easily-combustible passions of the religious outnumber the passions of atheists who have had to bite their lips/hold their tongues long enough.

magicbastarder

at the risk of asking a question already answered, what does the last rites actually signify - is it just a blessing of sorts, which is believed to be nothing more than a 'fare thee well in the afterlife', or is it believed to convey some advantage to those deceased?

gbee

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Secular societies are not going to be utopias but they’re a step in the right direction,

IMO, organised religion should be banned and no child should be indoctrinated in any one of them. If people want to go to a place of worship and give thanks to anything for anything, that's fine.

I think that religion can have a social base and a group of similar minded people can facilitate peaceful co-existence. But religion has been a political weapon for aeons.

As the mind takes me occasionally, I look at many religions and I find I like bits of most of them, and it was not uncommon for people pre-Roman times to have alters to many 'deities' alongside each other and people would give devotion to their favourite/s.

axer

magicbastarder wrote: »

at the risk of asking a question already answered, what does the last rites actually signify - is it just a blessing of sorts, which is believed to be nothing more than a 'fare thee well in the afterlife', or is it believed to convey some advantage to those deceased?

I think it is meant to "clean" their soul - not sure how that works on someone that is already dead though.

PDN

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Hmmmm. I shall now rise above the temptation to condescend and rail about the immaculate English I have used and the inability of those of lower intelligence to grasp my point..
and with that done...

If someone had wrongly accused you of using bad English then I would certainly support your right to defend yourself.

And if anyone, in an entirely different thread, implied you were condescending for so doing then I would defend your right to view that person as a bit of a knob.

All of which is hypothetical, of course, since you somehow managed to resist the temptation of defending yourself against a non-existent accusation that was never levelled at you and had zero relevance to this thread. Congratulations!

robindch

magicbastarder wrote: »

at the risk of asking a question already answered, what does the last rites actually signify - is it just a blessing of sorts, which is believed to be nothing more than a 'fare thee well in the afterlife', or is it believed to convey some advantage to those deceased?

Depends on the uber-deity, and the denomination and sect, to which the priest subscribes.

Formally, the Vatican claims that a priest must execute three processes: the 'Anointing of the Sick', the 'Penance' and the 'Eucharist' in order to do what's generally referred to as the 'Last Rites'. If these three rituals are carried out at the same time, and in that order, then the Vatican claims that they constitute the right things to do to de-sin an individual and to get them well on their way to Eternal Bliss. Other religions do other things.

BTW - I can't recall any details, but I do have vague memories of some dusty theological dispute in which one group of religious people said the last rites could be administered only once per believer, and the other lot said that they could safely be administered a second time if the (un?)lucky individual survived what was wrongly thought to be his/her last illness. The issue revolved around whether penances could be issued more than once per life, devaluing the worth of the 'sacrament' if they could be, hence the church (which I think was the Vatican) constricted the Penance supply in order to keep the price artificially high. The downside being, of course, that if you underwent the last rites (and the concomitant Penance) that you could never sin again in your life since you'd never be able to be absolved of it and presumably life, and certainly death, would therefore be Hell.

Somebody with more knowledge and interest in long-dead theological debates than I might be able to clarify the above.

Shenshen

robindch wrote: »

Depends on the uber-deity, and the denomination and sect, to which the priest subscribes.

Formally, the Vatican claims that a priest must execute three processes: the 'Anointing of the Sick', the 'Penance' and the 'Eucharist' in order to do what's generally referred to as the 'Last Rites'. If these three rituals are carried out at the same time, and in that order, then the Vatican claims that they constitute the right things to do to de-sin an individual and to get them well on their way to Eternal Bliss. Other religions do other things.

BTW - I can't recall any details, but I do have vague memories of some dusty theological dispute in which one group of religious people said the last rites could be administered only once per believer, and the other lot said that they could safely be administered a second time if the (un?)lucky individual survived what was wrongly thought to be his/her last illness. The issue revolved around whether penances could be issued more than once per life, devaluing the worth of the 'sacrament' if they could be, hence the church (which I think was the Vatican) constricted the Penance supply in order to keep the price artificially high. The downside being, of course, that if you underwent the last rites (and the concomitant Penance) that you could never sin again in your life since you'd never be able to be absolved of it and presumably life, and certainly death, would therefore be Hell.

Somebody with more knowledge and interest in long-dead theological debates than I might be able to clarify the above.

This reminded me of something my mum once told me... she was working in a Catholic old people's home back in Germany a while back.
She once told me that the local priest would make his rounds every 6 weeks or so with the last rites, because that was the expiration date on the ritual, after that is sort of "wears off", and some old folks were really scared of dying without them.

Made me wonder how much you can possibly sin when you lie in bed all day staring at the ceiling...

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

If someone had wrongly accused you of using bad English then I would certainly support your right to defend yourself.

And if anyone, in an entirely different thread, implied you were condescending for so doing then I would defend your right to view that person as a bit of a knob.

All of which is hypothetical, of course, since you somehow managed to resist the temptation of defending yourself against a non-existent accusation that was never levelled at you and had zero relevance to this thread. Congratulations!

Yes I would and do view such an individual a knob, ...regularly and in such a range of posts its difficult to keep track.
But back to my point about not particularly wanting the last rites from an organisation i find repulsive and have removed myself from when death is imminent. Do you still think this one size fits all attitude to hocus pocus is just dandy?

Brenireland

Just like to say on this matter how gracious we should be to the church & the priests and how quick off the mark they were to get to the scene of the accident,The Last Right is an extremely important sacrament as it is the final blessing before you come face to face with our lord and puts the Body & Soul at ease.

It is not easy for a priest giving these blessings in such circumstance's & such an experience would scar anyone mentally,But our Priests are blessed and protected by our lord,they have a gift to help each & everyone's soul on its way so we should indeed be greatful.

It is also great that our emergency services were also very fast to react & saved lives by doing so,We Should thank god above for them & to bless our emergency services.

robindch

Mod note -

rational wrote: »

The only paranoia here seems to be coming from you. Someone uses the word agenda and you immidiately go of on one shouting right wing conspiracy. [...] In fact it hinders debate and leads to a mob like consensus where we all clap each other on the back for up holding that consensus. [...] DO you see the complete hypocracy in your position here.

A couple of days back, an eagle-eyed forum regular noted some oddities about rational and wordcount's posting habits. A quick check against boards.ie's backend security systems indicated that one might have been operating as a sockpuppet for the other.

The poster did not reply to repeated requests for clarification, so I'm afraid that your friendly mods have concluded that one poster was indeed operating both accounts with a view to astroturfing his or her point of view. This is a no-no on boards and consequently, wordcount's account will be site-banned and rational will receive a week's ban from A+A. The latter's ban might well have been longer had the dishonesty been executed with any degree of enthusiasm.

Thanks very much to the forum regular who brought this to Dades and my attention. You may collect your free pint at the next A+A beers!

wordcount wrote: »

[...] not be a rational thing to do.

It certainly wasn't, at least, not around here anyway. Cheers and goodbye.

rational wrote: »

The last sting of a dying wasp so to speak

robindch

Brenireland wrote: »

It is also great that our emergency services were also very fast to react & saved lives by doing so,We Should thank god above for them & to bless our emergency services.

Why not (a) ask a priest why this omnipotent deity didn't stop the crash before it happened and (b) why not write the emergency services a letter of thanks?

Morag

Ghost Buster wrote: »

How important is this ritual known as The last Rites?
Could the priest wait for family to give a 'yay' or 'nay' to it?
Seems reasonable to me....
If the issue is in giving solace to an individual who may be dying then in order to need solace the individual must be conscious. If conscious they can agree to the last rites. If unconscious then they need no solace so leave them alone

Any catholic can do the basics of administering last rights which is to help the dying person to day the act of contrition and ask for forgiveness of their sins so that their are freshly shriven of their sins when they die. Some times this is saying it for them and for them just saying amen or making an acknowledgement.

Any Eucharistic minster who has been authorised can bring 'host' to administer and Chrism to anoint the dying person adding to their state of grace after the act of contrition as been said.

A priest may do all of the above as well as preforming an act of absolment of sin.

So if a priest thinks that a person is catholic and lets face it they seem to think fecking everyone is, and those who aren't any more and wish not to be are fooling ourselves then they see it as their duty so sort out the person's soul before they die and if they are dead to intervene for them as the soul is still hanging about.

Which really for me just makes me more inclined to wear a symbol of my faith so that would not happen to me while I was unable to stop it.

Brenireland

robindch wrote: »

Why not (a) ask a priest why this omnipotent deity didn't stop the crash before it happened and (b) why not write the emergency services a letter of thanks?

Sorry,I didn't realise it was an "Atheism & Agnosticism" thread sorry.
No I am a Roman Catholic & I feel they should be commended for the great work they do,Sadly Christ's representatives among us do not have the ability to save lives,They are among us to help our souls.

Always remember that Christ never wanted death.

Shenshen

Brenireland wrote: »

Sorry,I didn't realise it was an "Atheism & Agnosticism" thread sorry.
No I am a Roman Catholic & I feel they should be commended for the great work they do,Sadly Christ's representatives among us do not have the ability to save lives,They are among us to help our souls.

Always remember that Christ never wanted death.

Makes you wonder why he sent the fog, then, doesn't it?

axer

Brenireland wrote: »

Sorry,I didn't realise it was an "Atheism & Agnosticism" thread sorry.
No I am a Roman Catholic & I feel they should be commended for the great work they do,Sadly Christ's representatives among us do not have the ability to save lives,They are among us to help our souls.

Always remember that Christ never wanted death.

PDN

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Yes I would and do view such an individual a knob, ...regularly and in such a range of posts its difficult to keep track.

Ah, I was unaware that someone was criticising your English, or that anyone was then implying you were condescending for defending yourself. You have my deepest sympathy.

As the good book says in Acts 9:5 "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." (King James Version)

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

Ah, I was unaware that someone was criticising your English, or that anyone was then implying you were condescending for defending yourself. You have my deepest sympathy.

As the good book says in Acts 9:5 "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." (King James Version)

Thanks:D

Brenireland

Shenshen wrote: »

Makes you wonder why he sent the fog, then, doesn't it?

God gave us all we have,If we did not have it,We would never know about it.

Death occurs when the Heart stops,Reason for death always varies.

you can ask if I wonder why god sent fog,but I can ask why build a runway on a hill which has always been known to be foggy?
In death their are always circumstances and questions left unanswered.

When God decides to take a soul home,he realises the hurt that is caused,We as humans as sad as it may seem have had to adapt to death,However Death is in no way the end,it is the beginning.

Brenireland

axer wrote: »

to late,Iv'e been bitten:p

Michael Nugent

Brenireland wrote: »

Just like to say on this matter how gracious we should be to the church & the priests and how quick off the mark they were to get to the scene of the accident,The Last Right is an extremely important sacrament as it is the final blessing before you come face to face with our lord and puts the Body & Soul at ease.

I don't usually correct spelling mistakes, but the word is "rite" and not "right". The reason I correct it here is that it seems you may have mistaken the Last Rites it for a different concept, particularly as you have used the word in the singular.

The Last Rites is not itself a sacrament. It is a collective term for three separate sacraments: penance, anointment of the sick, and communion.

This involves a sick person, who is in danger of death, confessing their sins, having oil placed on their forehead and hands along with recitations, and receiving communion.

There is no reason for a priest to assume that an accident victim wants to do any of these things, and there are good reasons for not bothering the victims and emergency service workers by wandering through the accident scene looking for people to ask.

As an aside, it doesn't even make theological sense to give the Last Rites to a dead body.

Shenshen

Brenireland wrote: »

God gave us all we have,If we did not have it,We would never know about it.

Death occurs when the Heart stops,Reason for death always varies.

you can ask if I wonder why god sent fog,but I can ask why build a runway on a hill which has always been known to be foggy?
In death their are always circumstances and questions left unanswered.

When God decides to take a soul home,he realises the hurt that is caused,We as humans as sad as it may seem have had to adapt to death,However Death is in no way the end,it is the beginning.

Makes you wonder why you bother tanking god for anything at all, then, seeing as it makes not the slightest bit of difference.
According to you, he woke up that morning and decided to allow circumstances kill 6 people in a plane carsh, and you're asking people to thank him for not killing more?

Odd.

Brenireland

Shenshen wrote: »

Makes you wonder why you bother tanking god for anything at all, then, seeing as it makes not the slightest bit of difference.
According to you, he woke up that morning and decided to allow circumstances kill 6 people in a plane carsh, and you're asking people to thank him for not killing more?

Odd.

Oh dear.....

I believe we should Thank him for what he gave us,God gives + Takes.
When somebody passes away it is natural to be filled with anger!,Understandably.

But soon people accept that their loved has moved on,to a new life,& they begin to thank god for what the departed person gave to the world,We all know we cannot live forever & acceptance is what is so important & prayer helps us.

It is important to know we will all die up until the day of judgement,when the dead will rise again & the glory of god will shine,The Day When Good defeats Bad,We know not when this day will occur but we must prepare,Jesus is our Shepherd,we are his sheep,Sheep will get lost,but god will always find them.

Shenshen

Brenireland wrote: »

Oh dear.....

I believe we should Thank him for what he gave us,God gives + Takes.
When somebody passes away it is natural to be filled with anger!,Understandably.

But soon people accept that their loved has moved on,to a new life,& they begin to thank god for what the departed person gave to the world,We all know we cannot live forever & acceptance is what is so important & prayer helps us.

It is important to know we will all die up until the day of judgement,when the dead will rise again & the glory of god will shine,The Day When Good defeats Bad,We know not when this day will occur but we must prepare,Jesus is our Shepherd,we are his sheep,Sheep will get lost,but god will always find them.

You do know that shepards keep flocks to shear them, and eventually eat the sheep, right?
Just thought I'd mention it.

Also, I think it's quite misplaced to thank god for the efforts of an individual.

Brenireland

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I don't usually correct spelling mistakes, but the word is "rite" and not "right". The reason I correct it here is that it seems you may have mistaken the Last Rites it for a different concept, particularly as you have used the word in the singular.

The Last Rites is not itself a sacrament. It is a collective term for three separate sacraments: penance, anointment of the sick, and communion.

This involves a sick person, who is in danger of death, confessing their sins, having oil placed on their forehead and hands along with recitations, and receiving communion.

There is no reason for a priest to assume that an accident victim wants to do any of these things, and there are good reasons for not bothering the victims and emergency service workers by wandering through the accident scene looking for people to ask.

As an aside, it doesn't even make theological sense to give the Last Rites to a dead body.

Yes their are 7 Sacraments:
baptism
b.confirmation
c.holy eucharist
d.reconciliation
e.anointing of the sick(last rites
f.matrimony
g.holy orders

Priests along with Emergency service are always requested on the scene of an accident (as was the case at cork).

"theological sense to give the Last Rites to a dead body"

It is often done,it is the soul which is mainly concentrated on,the soul is blessed as it begins a new journey.

Brenireland

Shenshen wrote: »

You do know that shepards keep flocks to shear them, and eventually eat the sheep, right?
Just thought I'd mention it.

Also, I think it's quite misplaced to thank god for the efforts of an individual.

Yes I am aware of that!lol,However the Shepherd & Sheep is only used to describe those who in the past refused to believe but in the end they do go back to the lord.

The story of St.Brigids Father is an interesting one,He converted to Catholicism on his death bed,and many have done so since.

And another is,it is proven that those who are passing away and have a belief, pass away more peacefully,as they know it is no the end for the soul will begin a new journey.

axer

Brenireland wrote: »

And another is,it is proven that those who are passing away and have a belief, pass away more peacefully,as they know it is no the end for the soul will begin a new journey.

Have you a link to that study?

Shenshen

Brenireland wrote: »

Yes I am aware of that!lol,However the Shepherd & Sheep is only used to describe those who in the past refused to believe but in the end they do go back to the lord.

The story of St.Brigids Father is an interesting one,He converted to Catholicism on his death bed,and many have done so since.

And another is,it is proven that those who are passing away and have a belief, pass away more peacefully,as they know it is no the end for the soul will begin a new journey.

Ah, yes. Conversion out of fear, religions love that one as it is so easy.

Ghost Buster

Brenireland wrote: »

Yes I am aware of that!lol,However the Shepherd & Sheep is only used to describe those who in the past refused to believe but in the end they do go back to the lord.

The story of St.Brigids Father is an interesting one,He converted to Catholicism on his death bed,and many have done so since.

And another is,it is proven that those who are passing away and have a belief, pass away more peacefully,as they know it is no the end for the soul will begin a new journey.

Yes. Converting on the death bed. Not a nice time. A time of fear, mental anguish, sadness and vulnerability. Imagine doing something out of character at such a time. Almost as odd as believing in a god because you have had it instilled in you from a few months of age.

Brenireland

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Yes. Converting on the death bed. Not a nice time. A time of fear, mental anguish, sadness and vulnerability. Imagine doing something out of character at such a time. Almost as odd as believing in a god because you have had it instilled in you from a few months of age.

Can't the same be said about non-believers?,Not believing in god because you had it instilled in you from a few months of age/or maybe because some people learn to accept,but sadly some don't and as a result rebel?

many convert to a religion on their death bed,even if they are going through mental anguish,Even your mind realises that,If your life is unstable at the last moment many try to stabilise it by doing what is right.

Shenshen

Brenireland wrote: »

Can't the same be said about non-believers?,Not believing in god because you had it instilled in you from a few months of age/or maybe because some people learn to accept,but sadly some don't and as a result rebel?

many convert to a religion on their death bed,even if they are going through mental anguish,Even your mind realises that,If your life is unstable at the last moment many try to stabilise it by doing what is right.

Yes, because children of atheist parents need to be told every day that there is no god... :rolleyes:

The thing many theist like to overlook is that there are not only atheist to religious conversions in times of fear and stress. The opposite exists as well.
Would you say then that this is also people realising that their life isn't going the way it should, and "try to stabilise it by doing what is right"?
Or would it not be closer to the truth that in situations of stress, people find it hard to remain rational and irrationality and fear simply take over, with different results for each individual?

Brenireland

Brenireland wrote: »

many convert to a religion on their death bed,even if they are going through mental anguish,Even your mind realises that,If your life is unstable at the last moment many try to stabilise it by doing what is right.

They do what is comforting, which has no bearing on whether it's right or not

Brenireland

Shenshen wrote: »

Yes, because children of atheist parents need to be told every day that there is no god... :rolleyes:

The thing many theist like to overlook is that there are not only atheist to religious conversions in times of fear and stress. The opposite exists as well.
Would you say then that this is also people realising that their life isn't going the way it should, and "try to stabilise it by doing what is right"?
Or would it not be closer to the truth that in situations of stress, people find it hard to remain rational and irrationality and fear simply take over, with different results for each individual?

Well everything I said is in my posts.

Ghost Buster

Brenireland wrote: »

Can't the same be said about non-believers?,Not believing in god because you had it instilled in you from a few months of age/or maybe because some people learn to accept,but sadly some don't and as a result rebel?

many convert to a religion on their death bed,even if they are going through mental anguish,Even your mind realises that,If your life is unstable at the last moment many try to stabilise it by doing what is right.

No. The same cant be said about non believers generally... anything else?

magicbastarder

Brenireland wrote: »

And another is,it is proven that those who are passing away and have a belief, pass away more peacefully

how the hell did they do that study? how do you ask a dead person how peaceful their death was?

Mark Hamill

Brenireland wrote: »

many convert to a religion on their death bed,even if they are going through mental anguish,Even your mind realises that,If your life is unstable at the last moment many try to stabilise it by doing what is right.

How do you differentiate between a mind doing what is right despite being under mental anguish, and a mind just reaching blindingly for any comfort, no matter how superficial, during a time of mental anguish? And you do need to be able to do this, for while you are right in that people have converted religion on their death beds, they don't all convert to the same one.

Brenireland

Lets just thank god for all we have eh,our country maybe in recession but one thing we still have is our faith & our belief.

magicbastarder

and fianna fail. god bless fianna fail.

MrPudding

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Myth busted :cool:

A picture tells a thousand words...



MrP

Brenireland

magicbastarder wrote: »

and fianna fail. god bless fianna fail.

Yes my friend!indeed,They do all the heavy lifting for our country and our economy.

MrPudding

PDN wrote: »

Actually it isn't. You really are scraping the barrel now.

Touching could only be construed as assaulting someone when they have expressly asked you not to do so, or there is a reasonable expectation that the touch will be offensive or unwelcome.

Sticking on my pedant's hat, touching someone is never construed as assault, it would be battery. Assault is giving a person the apprehension you are about to touch them. Hence, assault and battery, giving someone the impression you are about to touch them unlawfully (the assault) and then touching them unlawfully (the battery.)

MrP

fatmammycat

magicbastarder wrote: »

how the hell did they do that study? how do you ask a dead person how peaceful their death was?

I would like a link to this study also.

Shenshen

Brenireland wrote: »

Lets just thank god for all we have eh,our country maybe in recession but one thing we still have is our faith & our belief.

Ok, I definitely think you're nothing but a troll now.