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Liverpool v Wigan
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i beg to differ with you on that jayob , no provoking intented on my part , im talking pure fact , 7 days is a long time in football in summary thats what i said:rolleyes:
ppfffft this is a match thread , didnt realise it was solely intended for pool fans btw:rolleyes:
What team DO you support Berba?
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Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »rossie mate, joke all you want but the things said to me last week by many on here are looking quite silly now. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the players aren't good enough. Found their level.
which means woy was the problem then if 6th is their level, he had them in 19th at one stage and 3 points above the relegation zone when he left, that wigan goal today was the first liverpool conceded in 7+hrs of football, they couldn't keep a clean sheet under hodgson for love nor money0 -
Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »What team DO you support Berba?
sure il give you a clue: Were playing at the san siro for the 2nd time this season on tuesday night. 0 -
Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »What team DO you support Berba?
berba surely gives it away, he supports man utd 0 -
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Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »Arrr, I did wonder cos I thought you would be posting in the Sunderland V Spurs match thread thats all
i have been :rolleyes:0 -
Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »Arrr, I did wonder cos I thought you would be posting in the Sunderland V Spurs match thread thats all
And still people reply to him. Don't complain when he is talking rubbish :rolleyes:0 -
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Liverpool under Hodgson beat Chelsea with Fernando Torres in the team - he scored both our goals if I remember correctly. When they met again Torres was playing for Chelsea and we managed a win and a very good performance.
Your point is?
I know this is nit picking your post - I've ignored a huge chunk of it. All I will say is this - Liverpool at Christmas were in the relegation zone. Now we're in the top 10 (6th). If you said to me back then that we'd get up to 6th I would have rode you and your brother. Especially since Torres has left and we now have a EPL newcomer in Suarez and Carroll out injured.
I know it was strange to see supporters of other clubs display more realistic appraisals of liverpools situation than some of their own supporters ,many of whom are usally in feast or famine mode.
I'm not expecting silverware this year or Champions League football, call me pessimistic.
Thats good , you won't be disappointed so.;)0 -
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Wow, the haters must have been seething the last four games. Out in force today.
Under Dalglish: 2.00 points per game
Under Hodgson: 1.25 points per game
I'll leave it to others to elaborate on why:
A) Maintaining that average under Dalglish would be spectacular;
The above makes a mockery of MNG's assertion that 'Liverpool would have finished 6th anyway under Hodgson' 0 -
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the players were at fault...i don't know how many times i have explained this to rival fans who really seem to want to tell us that we were unfair on Hodgson, and somehow siding completely with the players.
it's not true.
blame for the manager and blame for the players are not mutually exclusive. it's not one or the others' fault. it was both.
but, for the umpteenth time, you can't sack the team.
and Hodgson was dreadful in his tactics, how he set out the team, and he quite blatantly didn't have the respect of the players. that's pretty petulant of the players, and in an ideal world they'd simply play for the shirt, but modern football ain't that simple. a manager needs to know how to instill extra desire in the team...through his talk, and most importantly, the way he sets out the team.
Hodgson was ALWAYS going to be the one the lose out.
and i'm really, really tired of the 'when are you going to blame the players?' argument. we do. plenty. all the time in fact. but we're not going to keep Hodgson round waiting for the players to cop on.
the fact is, so far, Kenny has been a vast, vast improvement. end of. dress it up how you like, he's had a points average of 2.0 versus 1.25 p/game, has clean sheets, and has us a threat away from home for a change.
shame on the players for the start of the season. shame on Hodgson. but such is life, Hodgson had to be the one to take the hit. i don't see what's so difficult in that to understand.
I learned nothing from yesterday, well one thing, Suarez should settle in nicely in the PL.
Other than that, nothing, Liverpool have no strength in depth once a couple of regulars are out, in this case no Agger or Gerrard, no Cole on the bench, though we are used to that. Shame Shelvey wasn't fit, would have been a nice test for him.
Still:
Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »
(I'm amused by the thought also of a United fan perhaps having cooked up a similar system to argue why Fergie should have been sacked when he went through his bad patch early in his reign, and that Big Ron should have been brought back in since his stats would have been better!)
We all know SAF wouldn't have lasted in this day and age, hell, he barely lasted then! It isn't inconceivable at all that SAF wouldn't be at United and that was in 1991, 20 years ago.
We all know why Roy was got rid off. Tactics, owners, tactics, players, tactics, squad, tactics, never got a fair chance, his own tactics, lack of depth, tactics, poor squad, tactics etc. etc.
SAF had these same problems, difference was he'd pedigree, breaking
the old Firm, an impossible task, then and now.
You have a yearning for the old school sticking by a manager philosophy. Guess what? Liverpool have just found the right the candidate to stick by!
Kenny will do fine and he's doing fine.Liverpool want to get back to the Shankley, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish era. Rafa nearly did it.
Roy was a stop gap manager, everybody knows it, at most a season, until new owners came in.
No doubt you'll ignore this and other posts. That's fine, it's your prerogative.
I think United should have stood by Atkinson myself! Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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this is the crux of my issue.
i do not excuse the players one iota, which you seem to accuse me of believing.
but the reality of the game is that the manager has to be able to get the best out of what he's got, has to have the respect of the players, and has to instill confidence in the team.
Hodgson exhibited none of this.
i don't know how much of Hodgson's Liverpool you've watched. Kenny's is completely unrecognisable. the reason our results have picked up is due to the team playing further up the pitch, being encouraged to pass it, and being encouraged to support each other, en-masse, in attack. if you've seen any analysis of our play since Kenny took charge you will see that. that is why our results have improved.
i've heard it said, 'oh, it's new manager syndrome that has the current Liverpool team playing well'. bollocks again. Roy didn't seem to have that problem.
Hodgson did not deserve more time. the players, if we had a choice, didn't deserve time either, but what can you do?! without the players you unfortunately don't have a team.
i have no problem with people having alternative opinions; i'm forever defending those who have them, you should have seen that by now i hope. but on the Hodgson issue, it really gets me riled when fans get accused of 'siding with the players'. because i'm sorry, for the majority of us, there was no siding with anyone.
if i could've sacked the team, i would have, but i can't and nobody can.
and either way, Roy was shít. any reasonable fan watching us play at the start of the season will have seen that he couldn't hack it. the defensive setups, and camping in our own half were down to Roy, end of. nobody can possibly argue he deserved more time. he'd lost the dressing room, had us set up terribly, wasn't winning enough games, had us near the relegation zone. whether the players should have played for him or not is largely irrelevant; it may be pathetic, but that's the way it was. so to give them a kick up the arse (because, i repeat, you can't sack them) a change HAD to happen.
you are of course entitled to maintain your opinion, i don't expect to change it...but the bottom line for me is, the players were **** and deserved huge blame, and i wish i could've pretty much replaced them all, but if you'd watched Roy's team and how he'd set us up, and you'd seen how the current team i set up (regardless of players), you'll see who knows how to manage a top team. his sacking was entirely justified IMO.
(and of course managers are going to support Roy, they're hardly going to say he deserved it are they? honestly....especially his mate Sir Alex....)
Yes of course I agree the manager has to get the best out of what he's got. It is a two way process though and that is a point that I feel has frequently been lost. This is something that Hodgson had to deal with - people bemoaned the results he was getting and said he was to blame, but sure Dalglish has presided over a team that has been beaten by Blackpool, drawn with Everton and drawn with Wigan and thrown away leads in the process. Those are results that would have gotten Hodgson huge stick. Does this not signify then that the Liverpool squad might be the bulk of the problem? Or are we not far off from Dalglish not being good enough either? You wouldn't know in this game. His results have been mixed from what I can see against what I'd regard as a quite fair and reasonable fixture list. Not having a pop at Dalglish by saying that because I feel the players he has, new signings aside, have been largely poor this season.
I've seen Liverpool pretty much every time they've been televised live and tbh I think there is a lot of hype going on. For instance the United game was cited as evidence Liverpool had turned a corner. 'At least there's passion now etc'. I didn't see much from Liverpool that day personally and thought both teams were poor. I saw the Wigan game recently and felt they were OK but that Wigan merited something. Carragher acknowledged that on Sky. I thought they were excellent against Chelsea. I do believe in 'new manager syndrome' myself and I think it's part of the reason chairmen get anxious and bring someone else in. In fairness to Hodgson his opening games were very tough, regardless of any new effect.
Fair enough you don't like the guy's system of play. I can understand that but I think the players have a lot of responsibility too for the results. I would ask could they have done more. I look at Liverpool's players and I certainly felt they could have done more because they are a talented bunch on paper. The sixth best squad on paper in my view and I believe the table will reflect that. Some players just didn't do enough for him. Torres, Cole, Konchesky - man he really let him down - Johnson, even Kuyt who is one of the players I really like seems poorer than previous seasons. Also he lost Mascherano and it's tough when you have fans wanting this team to be challenging for the top four with a squad like that.Fromvert wrote:So was Roy, Chelsea, Blackpool and Wolves.
Should he of had better results?
The Chelsea one was probably his best result. The others are disappointing. I just feel it's flawed and suspect to make comparisons with a guy that came in under a cloud like Hodgson dealing with a lot of turmoil about ownership and players leaving and/or wanting to leave over many months, who had a very tough baptism of fire, with a guy that came in as an overwhelmingly popular choice who has been given big financial backing from great owners and who has a quite reasonable opening fixture list. There are too many variables to make such a statistical comparison imo.K-9 wrote:We all know SAF wouldn't have lasted in this day and age, hell, he barely lasted then! It isn't inconceivable at all that SAF wouldn't be at United and that was in 1991, 20 years ago.
We all know why Roy was got rid off. Tactics, owners, tactics, players, tactics, squad, tactics, never got a fair chance, his own tactics, lack of depth, tactics, poor squad, tactics etc. etc.
SAF had these same problems, difference was he'd pedigree, breaking
the old Firm, an impossible task, then and now.
You have a yearning for the old school sticking by a manager philosophy. Guess what? Liverpool have just found the right the candidate to stick by!
Kenny will do fine and he's doing fine.Liverpool want to get back to the Shankley, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish era. Rafa nearly did it.
Roy was a stop gap manager, everybody knows it, at most a season, until new owners came in.
No doubt you'll ignore this and other posts. That's fine, it's your prerogative.
I think United should have stood by Atkinson myself!
Well firstly to be fair I don't think I've ignored posts. It's just hard to know which posters want to discuss it and which ones just want to call me a troll, a hater, not a real football fan, etc. It's tiresome hearing these sort of snide comments all the time.
Leaving aside all that, we actually seem to be in agreement with a lot here. Certainly in the current climate Fergie wouldn't have made it. I think he may have said this himself at one stage. He has called for clubs to give managers more time because this equates to stability and I agree with him 100% on that. Wenger has said it too.
I do think Dalglish will be given time and it looks like the owners mean business so I'm sure it will be a more stable club going forward than when Hodgson was there. All I'm saying is, that reality doesn't mean Hodgson was a poor manager or coach. In my view he got dealt some tough hands and situations and couldn't shake off that cloud he came in under. In an ideal world I think he could have taken Liverpool to the finish where they will end up, but we will never know and can only speculate because football right now, most definitely, is not ideal.
I just take issue with this notion that he's a sh*t manager. I think it was Houllier who pointed out the absurdity of how he was pretty much universally praised last year for what he did with Fulham in Europe, and yet in less than a year, half a year, he is being called a poor manager. Last week after the Chelsea game some Liverpool fans were scathing of him and said the result was proof that Dalglish can do better with the same resources. Well the Wigan game I think raises question marks about the limitations of the Liverpool squad as other results do and I don't believe that the problems Liverpool had under Hodgson are as clear-cut as some want to believe. Of course people are entitled to their own views and interpretations as I am and my view is that Hodgson hasn't gone from being a great coach, which is what I think he is, to a bad one in a couple of months.
There's been a lot of talk of 'levels' in all this. Some say Hodgson wasn't at Liverpool's level. Some say he has found his level at West Brom. My view is that both he and Liverpool were trying to find a new level and that when results got patchy, the justification for his firing was that he wasn't at the club's level. I don't think it's that simple however. I just think Liverpool are having to come to terms with being at a level unlike that of previous years, and with the growing pains that this will involve, perhaps it took an old friendly face like Dalglish to oversee that, rather than a guy like Hodgson who the fans overall never really warmed to. Just my two cents on it.
Anyways I've honestly said all I want to say on this tbh. Cheers to those who take the time to discuss it without the unnecessary comments. Nothing wrong with different viewpoints at the end of the day.0 -
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