Fine Gael to ban below cost selling of alcohol

sdanseo

El Siglo wrote: »

There's not a whole to do in this country, apart from playing football and having a few jars. Whether drinking or not is inherently wrong, that's the choice of the individual, the alternative is fascism... Which I'm sure FG are completely comfortable with...

That's a sorry excuse to be honest...the's plenty to do. Use a little creativity rather than going out getting bollocksed.

El Siglo wrote: »

Economies of scale is one thing, but people will actually buy more or less the same as they have always done since things went bad (i.e. since "staying in was the new going out", possibly less even) with the various taxes and reductions in social welfare. Which the blue-shirts will probably increase and reduce further, once they're in power. So saying that because of the activities of large retail outlets, we the consumer should bear the burden of the uncompetitiveness of smaller retail outlets is farcical.

I'm not saying we should be propping up little businesses, only that we should refuse to condemn them to annihalation by the big corporations. Look at America for an example of how a totally unregulated free market has turned their country into a total social basket case.

El Siglo wrote: »

It shouldn't be regulated and vintners shouldn't be given the time of day by any government. They're private citizens like the rest of us. Besides, necessity is the mother of invention as Ester Boserup put it, perhaps by not shoring up the vintners, offies etc... that these retailers might then improve their services etc... in order to attract customers and stay competitive, and the ones that don't, deserve bankruptcy. It was all well and good for them to take the mickey of consumers during the boom years, when real business acumen is required they need government intervention. Pathetic.

You're right, government should not have to shore up individual businesses and I strongly believe that individual entities should of course have to be responsible for their own destiny. However by allowing huge, multinational corporations like Tesco to flood the market with cheap booze, you condemn the little guys because there's absolutely no way they can compete. The drink industry has an awful lot wrong with it, but we still can't afford to let it go down the tubes in one go.

Tesco sell other products, which they clearly make enough profit on to keep them very much in the black despite beign able to sell booze at a loss - that is not something someone who sells only alcohol can do and thus they wioll suffer through no lack of effort on their part.

El Siglo wrote: »

I'd hardly think that the number of people being let go by publicans going out of business would even register as a blip on the radar. Especially when a 1,000 people per week are emigrating. If this were something like propping up Eircom or the ESB there would be some (not a lot either) justification, but it's not. Why should one group be protected and not another?

The 1,000 people a week might not be emigrating if they could get jobs in places like local businesses - which will be scarcer if you don't at least attempt to protect them.

El Siglo wrote: »

Taxing drink isn't going to pay for much, especially with the bailout. This is a petty little tax, like the one they proposed back in the 1990s on childrens shoes. Lenihan is an idiot, proven by his complete incompetence as Minister for Finance, I wouldn't want to sound like him in any sense of the word.

Taxing drink will pay for quite a lot. People will still drink, but perhaps more in moderation. You'll always get people with the argument "ah they'll buy as much anyway and just take the money out of their kids' mouths" - as one poster said in this thread - but that is simply irresponsible. If you spend more than you can afford on drink - which let's admit it, is a luxury good - then you have a problem not covered by the scope of this conversation.

I agree with you on one point however - Lenihan is a damn fool.

El Siglo wrote: »

Well to be honest, you can come down off that fucking high horse. If people want to drink etc... That's their choice. We had people tell us what to do before and they were called the Catholic Church and look how that went. It's this mentality that people are inherently stupid and need to be coerced into doing things by one ridiculous government after another that really annoys me.

What high horse? I've said it before and I'll say it again - I am not anti-drink. I am against people getting off their rocker and then behaving like total twats. If someone wants to binge drink themselves into a stupour in the privacy of their own home, go right ahead. But if you're going to spill out onto the street and behave like an a mindless twat, then learn to hold your drink or don't take it. I socialise at night with all my friends, I just don't happen to drink. I see people puking, pissing, fighting, vandalising, shoving, wandering into the path of oncoming cars including mine and causing accidents, the list is endless - and at times it seems like society is punishing me for making that quite concious choice not to partake in this. It's bedlam. Ask any Garda, for a start.

I have every right to complain that I can't go about my business without being adversely afffected by drunken yobbery again and again, just because it's in the early hours. Let me put it like this - if someone takes heroin, and becomes addicted to it, and the effects of that cause them to commit crime, vandalise things and puke on your car, it'd be a total abhorrence. If someone who's had a few jars does the same, the overwhelming majority of people either shrug it off with the typical Irish "ah it'll be grand" or are too blind drunk themselves to even notice.

What I do think, on a slightly new tangent, is that licensing hours should be abolished. Let all the clubs spill otu at different times, at the very least, and get rid of the crowds of people flooding the streets in a drunken mess, while at the same time allowing the cabs to flow freely and not park in the middle of the road looking for a fare. Then, at least, people might stop complaining about it, all would be fairer, and I;d be able to drive down Camden Street at 3am whenever I like without crashing into a taxi or running over an intoxitacted, puking hooligan who wants to moon my car. Not to mention we might get rid of the holy hour too - seriously, the Catholic Church should have no involvement in alcohol licensing any more whatsoever.

UglyBolloxFace

sdonn wrote: »

FREE universal healthcare

Pull the other one, would you.


**** off.

Degsy

If these **** want to do something about excessive drinking they'd do well to start looking at why people drink so much....a lot of people drink because the country is a shiithole,the prospects are terrible and the reality,for many is too much to bear.

Politicians are the ones to blame and they know it.. try to survive on 200 quid a week and of course you're gonna drink.

Its a disgusting cover-up job..FG are no better than Fianna Failure..they've been in and out of power for decades and its always been a shiithole.

Zebra3

FAO:Inda Kenny, spare us the anti-drink stuff.

One of your TDs was caught trying to drive out of the Dail car park not too long ago out of his bin and then abused a guard who possibly stopped him from killing someone.

You never called for the guards to prosecute the scumbag involved and you were happy enough for him to continue to serve as a Fine Gael TD.

Kenny, just another two-faced hypocrite.

Degsy

141_Oscar_Mike wrote: »

Meh. Im brewing Nettle Beer this spring. Corona from the countryside ftw.

:cool:

Good man

RichieC

Fk Fine Gael.

Einhard

Completely free markets and economic Darwinism are great in theory, but if a society fully follows them in practice, a situation prevails where all the small retailers eventually go out of business and shut down. This destroys villages and towns and, because only a few large retailers survive, distorts the market and ends up being entirely anti-competitive in the long run. I was off drink for January, and woud have supped a pint off a tramp's leg by last weekend, so I'm far from anti-drink. I do think though that, of we want to live in a society in which smaller, independent retailers still have a chance, then some amount of free market regulation has to take place. I've been to a number of towns in England where the only chemists was a Boots, the only book store WH Smith, and the butcher, the fishmonger, the veg shop, and the offie all consolidated in a single Tesco or Waitrose. Each High ST was practically identical, and it really destroyed the individuality of each town. I know some people, especially in AH it seems, have a fetish for the free market (it really worked out brilliantly for Ireland!!), but being human isn't all about economics, and I think a small amount of regulation is a small price to pay for vibrant town centres.

Now, where's that bottle of Absinthe...:p

Einhard

Sharrow wrote: »

Weatherspoons were looking to come in here and were going to put in 3 large pubs in dublin city centre but when they saw how it's all one big quango and circle jerk they changed their plans.

English chain pubs are the most characterless, bland, and depressing drinking venues known to man. They achieve the almost impossible and make Oirish bars abroad look inviting. Why would anyone lament their absence from the Irish market?

Sergeant

Einhard wrote: »

English chain pubs are the most characterless, bland, and depressing drinking venues known to man. They achieve the almost impossible and make Oirish bars abroad look inviting. Why would anyone lament their absence from the Irish market?

Weatherspoons are the most depressing drinking dens I've ever had the misfortune of coming across. The price of a pint isn't the only factor to be considered. I would rather spend 20 or 30 cent extra and get a pint of beer brewed by one of the many microbreweries that are springing up around Ireland. Enjoy a premium product, created by people who care about what they produce, and which hasn't been frozen to .1 of a degree above freezing.

Lidl don't do below cost selling, but you can buy a can of tasteless lager there for less than a quid. Grand if you want to get off your rocker. That won't change.

RichieC

Einhard wrote: »

English chain pubs are the most characterless, bland, and depressing drinking venues known to man. They achieve the almost impossible and make Oirish bars abroad look inviting. Why would anyone lament their absence from the Irish market?

I found english pubs in general desperate... those fking poker machines and blingy slots just make the places seem so dingy.

coffee_cake

sdonn wrote: »

I am somewhere between shocked, appalled, and wanting to break into a fit of laughter at some of the idiots in this thread who want to NOT vote for FG - not for any particular educated or economic reason, but purely because it'll mean their booze is a tad more expensive.

Protectionism IS an economic reason.
I don't even drink but giving in to the publicans moaning 'we jacked up the prices and we're rude and nobody comes to us so ban competition' is not on

syklops wrote: »

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Anti-drink lobby has landed.

DOnt lump me in with them

Mark200

TheZohan wrote: »

We either have a f**king free market or we don't.

Silly thing to say to be fair... I doubt you'd support a purely free market, where there is no regulation.

It's not one or the other. There's plenty of space in between.

Gotta laugh at all the people who seem like they're having an out of control fit of anger over the idea that alcohol in the supermarkets may be a euro more expensive. I don't agree with the policy, but cop on like. Things like claiming they've been bribed into making this policy are embarrassing for those who come out with that crap.

Lumen

FG: I am disappoint.

I had vainly pinned my hopes for this country on the idea that the next executive would be less economically clueless than the current one.

Optimism fail.

Capt'n Midnight

phasers wrote: »

What is below cost? I assume cheap booze from lidl/aldi wouldn't be affected by this, as surely they sell at some kind of a profit. Is it the special offers that supermarkets have? Either way it's crappy, just wondering what will actually be affected.

True.

Also the excise duty on Beer hasn't gone up since 1994 , in fact for stuff below 2.8% it's actually been halved.
Pub prices are so high that most of the tax take is actually VAT

Beer is cheap (Barley sells for ~ €100 a tonne), I'd be surprised if the main cost for the brand names here was actually in production rather than Advertising and promotion.

Blame Diageo & co. if you think prices are too high.

Lawrence1895

Zebra3 wrote: »

FAO:Inda Kenny, spare us the anti-drink stuff.

One of your TDs was caught trying to drive out of the Dail car park not too long ago out of his bin and then abused a guard who possibly stopped him from killing someone.

You never called for the guards to prosecute the scumbag involved and you were happy enough for him to continue to serve as a Fine Gael TD.

Kenny, just another two-faced hypocrite.

Just out of curiosity...who was that TD?

Eric Cartman

maybee the pubs should engage in a little below cost selling

ejmaztec

Eric Cartman wrote: »

maybee the pubs should engage in a little below cost selling

They'd rather close down than knock 1 cent off the price of anything, the stupid feckers.

Mark200

Also, I don't see how this policy would be a favour to pubs in any sense. Alcohol at cost price would still significantly out-compete with pubs and most off licences.

Eric Cartman

its still going to wreck my buzz - 5 euro for 6 cans of tuborg in tescos has been a lifesaver, and the occasional deals like 15 cans of carling for a 10er too

ScumLord

Einhard wrote: »

Completely free markets and economic Darwinism are great in theory, but if a society fully follows them in practice, a situation prevails where all the small retailers eventually go out of business and shut down. This destroys villages and towns and, because only a few large retailers survive, distorts the market and ends up being entirely anti-competitive in the long run. I was off drink for January, and woud have supped a pint off a tramp's leg by last weekend, so I'm far from anti-drink. I do think though that, of we want to live in a society in which smaller, independent retailers still have a chance, then some amount of free market regulation has to take place. I've been to a number of towns in England where the only chemists was a Boots, the only book store WH Smith, and the butcher, the fishmonger, the veg shop, and the offie all consolidated in a single Tesco or Waitrose. Each High ST was practically identical, and it really destroyed the individuality of each town. I know some people, especially in AH it seems, have a fetish for the free market (it really worked out brilliantly for Ireland!!), but being human isn't all about economics, and I think a small amount of regulation is a small price to pay for vibrant town centres.

Now, where's that bottle of Absinthe...:p

I'd agree to a certain extent, I don't like big chains in the slightest and don't shop at Tescos because I don't like them as a company. But we either live in the crude monetary economy or we don't. It would be one thing if the small Irish business was the model of honesty and value but they weren't even close to that. We can't go back and we don't like where it's going but tilting the system to suit one business model like the pub isn't fair on anyone. If pubs can't survive as a business then that's the end of it.

Fixing the price of drink won't help the pubs anyway. The pubs face more problems than just the price.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Beer is cheap (Barley sells for ~ €100 a tonne), I'd be surprised if the main cost for the brand names here was actually in production rather than Advertising and promotion.

I'd be very surprised too, there's absolutely no way in hell they spend more on manufacturing than they do on advertising.

Liberal Ireland

What we need are lower taxes on alcohol and tobacco, making them comparable to international prices. As a note, there must be a twenty-four hour sale licence available. It is not the obligation of government to prohibit or intrude in the sale of these commodities.

Einhard

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd agree to a certain extent, I don't like big chains in the slightest and don't shop at Tescos because I don't like them as a company. But we either live in the crude monetary economy or we don't.

I disagree with this entirely. It's not an either/or scenario. We can temper the free market, and make it work in a more holistic method through proper regulation. Frankly, it's living in such a "crude monetary economy" that has gotten us into the mess we're currently in. Entirely is a terrible economic system, and leads to boom after bust after boom after bust. It ends up distorting markets, and is entirely anti-competitive in the long run. How people can laud such a system after the devestation it has wrecked across the globe in the past few years is beyond me. Just as with free speech, a free market should never be entirely free.

PaulKK

I can't believe people are going on about this in the way they are.

From reading some peoples posts you'd swear we are a nation of alcoholics. Don't get me wrong, I drink too, but as pointed out earlier this is just on BELOW COST selling.

People wake up ffs. The country is bollixed, we are going to have to pay more taxes in the next few years. Things like petrol, fags and tax is just going to have to be increased to get us out of this mess.

Things like the VAT rate going up were already agreed in the bailout deal, there is nothing FG can realistically do to change that. The fact is they are probably the only party with the right people to get us through this crap.

If you are changing your voting preference because of supermarket deals on drink being stopped, you really need to re-asses your priorities. This knee jerk reaction to things like this smacks of immaturity.

A lot of people here need to grow up.

maglite

PaulKK wrote: »

this is just on BELOW COST selling.

Its not really. It is showing that the new government will be the same as the last, bowing to special interest groups and interfering with a free market to make personal benefit.

Einhard

maglite wrote: »

Its not really. It is showing that the new government will be the same as the last, bowing to special interest groups and interfering with a free market to make personal benefit.

How many publicans exactly do you think there are in Ireland? What personal benefit is there in it for FG? Surely any publican lobby would easily be cancelled out by the lobby representing the biggest retailers in the land, and the largest retailer in the world?

PaulKK

maglite wrote: »

Its not really. It is showing that the new government will be the same as the last, bowing to special interest groups and interfering with a free market to make personal benefit.

So there is a personal benefit for the government in preserving jobs in small independent retailers and independent off-licences?

Or what personal benefit are you referring to?

Would that special interest group be the PAYE workers in these establishments that the government is trying to protect perhaps?

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html

Beer Exceeding 0.5% volume but not exceeding 1.2% volume 0.00

Exceeding 1.2% volume but not exceeding 2.8% volume 7.85 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer

Exceeding 2.8% volume 15.71 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer

Less than 40c of the price of a 500ml can of 5% beer is excise.
It that pint costs more than €2.57 the VAT is more than the Excise duty.


For the Tesco Tuborg 6x500ml at 4% for €5
VAT is 87c
Excise duty is €1.885
So still €2.44 over to produce the beer and profit. Milk has a short shelf life, and you have keep it refrigerated, and almost certainly costs more to produce because it's far more labour intensive. And you can buy 2L of milk for €2. On that basis prices here are still way above below cost selling unless the distributors are taking the píss.


For a pint of 5% excise it's 44.616c
If the pint is a fiver then VAT is 87c
so the publican's gross income is €3.68 split between them, the bills and the distributors.

rubadub

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its still going to wreck my buzz - 5 euro for 6 cans of tuborg in tescos has been a lifesaver,

I doubt this selling price is below cost, so will be the same price.

The publicans all scream about this below cost selling yet can give no evidence of it. People keep going on about the big bad retailers and the poor little guys. But many small offies have these deals too. I said before a centra near me had 20 heineken for €15, since people do not do a full shop in centra there is no reason why they would take part in below cost selling practises. So I wouldn't worry too much as I reckon very little is being sold below cost.

Capt'n Midnight

Liberal Ireland wrote: »

What we need are lower taxes on alcohol and tobacco, making them comparable to international prices. As a note, there must be a twenty-four hour sale licence available. It is not the obligation of government to prohibit or intrude in the sale of these commodities.

How low ?

We haven't increased prices on beer since 1994

What is the point in reducing excise duty when it's 40c on a can costing €2.15 - so if the duty was 0 ( not likely ) then the can (if the full excise and VAT reduction was passed on, and remember they didn't pass on the 1% when VAT was reduced in the past ) would be €1.67 - Still way more than the cost of a can of non-alcoholic drinks on the same VAT rate

Captain Morgan wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The taxes on tobacco are a balancing act because charging more will lead to people moving to black market smuggled stuff.

ScumLord

Einhard wrote: »

I disagree with this entirely. It's not an either/or scenario. We can temper the free market, and make it work in a more holistic method through proper regulation.

That's very much open to abuse going on past example. Your tipping the scales in someones favour for no good reason. Publicans don't make such a contribution to Irish society that we should tweak the system to prevent competition. This is how price driven markets breed evolution and change supposedly.

Just as with free speech, a free market should never be entirely free.

There should always be free speech if they don't like it everyone has the right not to listen.