Dairy Farming

Gballs

Hi Lads

Can anyone tell me if this might be a viable farming plan.
Right now I have 70 acres but hoping to acquire another 20 or 30 in the near future.
My plan is to go into dairy farming when the quota goes in 2015, house cows all year round in a vrey open plan straw bed shed and zerograze.
Because the farm is so small and there is little or no chance of renting land I was intending to buy all winter forage and also extra supplement during the milking period.
The plan is to have a high yielding Mountbelard heard and have as high of stocking rate as possible.
I will be starting from scratch but love hard work, but dont want to be waisting money if its not a viable project.
In time there might be a chance to increase the size of the farm maybe up to 150/200 acres but the farming strategy would stay the same as the land is very fragmented but all within 2km.
WHAT DO YE THINK ???...

jeff greene

A couple of quick points, why indoors on straw all year round, expensive way of bedding cows. Why zerograze and why montbelard, indoor system would turn them into balls of fat, Holstein in king for indoor systems.

In your indoor situation I would put in sand cubicles, good functional Holstein cows, good quality conserved forage for consistence. All that assuming you know your stuff with managing a high yielding herd and good milk price will see a decent living.

Is it really sustainable system for post 2015 though, if every dairy farmer increases production and all these new entrances what will happen to milk price. IMO if you have 70 acres around the parlour why not put 100 cows on there, supplement when needed and have a less labour intensive, more profitable system

Pacoa

house cows all year round in a vrey open plan straw bed shed + zerograze = very messy!

Thats what comes to my mind when i read that. You'd want to be feeding hay or maize or both in order to dry up their dung if your keeping them on straw. As jeff said, if you've got 70 acres why not graze 100 cows or are there other issues like crossing roads etc.???

F.D

cant see why it would not work, look at the uk there is a lot of high yielding herds housed all year round and a low milk price and they seem to make it work, i would imagine the key would be all year round milking, i can see it been where the real money is in 2015 with most aiming to produce on a low cost summer grass system,will a flood of milk = price drop? cubicles would be a must to cut down on bedding costs, interesting to hear what way you plan on milking the cows robots or traditional parlour? zerograzing sounds good and would be probably be cheaper than a tmr all year round, i wonder to farmers have a short memory sometimes with all the wet summers not so long ago and fields of cows walking more grass into the ground than they were eating! theres another plus to your plan;)

i would love to get into milk also, if i go low cost it would be low cow numbers low risk low returns due to the land available around the yard itsself
or i could go like you high cost (parlour zerograzer cubicle shed feed cost etc) high cow numbers and maybe high returns ,

the problem is like your plan above the financial risk if the milk price plumits your stuck with a high cost high payment enterprise, on the low cost system its a bit more flexible.
i still think the system your planning would work if you do your sums right and try and speak to someone on a similar system

Gballs

jeff greene wrote: »

A couple of quick points, why indoors on straw all year round, expensive way of bedding cows. Why zerograze and why montbelard, indoor system would turn them into balls of fat, Holstein in king for indoor systems.

In your indoor situation I would put in sand cubicles, good functional Holstein cows, good quality conserved forage for consistence. All that assuming you know your stuff with managing a high yielding herd and good milk price will see a decent living.

Is it really sustainable system for post 2015 though, if every dairy farmer increases production and all these new entrances what will happen to milk price. IMO if you have 70 acres around the parlour why not put 100 cows on there, supplement when needed and have a less labour intensive, more profitable system

Hi Jeff & thanks for the reply.

To answer your questions first:
Indoors because the farm of 70 acres is in 4 parts and is of heavy land and i.m thinking i'll be able to have a higher stocking rate if I zerograze and on chance of poaching.
Straw bed to keep lameness to a minimum sence I want the cows in all yr round and also I don't believe that putting slurry on land time after time is a good idea, it gets rid of natural airation while manure will have worms and thus should hopefuly increase the way nature intended it to be.
Zerograse - as mentioned above.
Mountbelards because i've read there milk has a higher natural content of fats and protein thus hopefully yielding a higher price/ltr.
As for managing a high yielding heard. I have very little experience in dairying, but I love it so i'll learn and learn fast.
It'll be 2015 before this kicks off,so I know what your saying about the price but rough calculations are about 16 cent/ltr but more work need to be done on this.
Ps. My neighbour runs a zerograzing system and he is booming, even in 09 he did well.

Gballs

Pacoa wrote: »

house cows all year round in a vrey open plan straw bed shed + zerograze = very messy!

Thats what comes to my mind when i read that. You'd want to be feeding hay or maize or both in order to dry up their dung if your keeping them on straw. As jeff said, if you've got 70 acres why not graze 100 cows or are there other issues like crossing roads etc.???

Hi Pacoa

My supplement feed would definately contain maize, I hadn't really considered hay but thanks for the suggestion. Fragmentation is a big problem so if I want to go dairying (and I do) I think this is my only option.

Gballs

F.D wrote: »

cant see why it would not work, look at the uk there is a lot of high yielding herds housed all year round and a low milk price and they seem to make it work, i would imagine the key would be all year round milking, i can see it been where the real money is in 2015 with most aiming to produce on a low cost summer grass system,will a flood of milk = price drop? cubicles would be a must to cut down on bedding costs, interesting to hear what way you plan on milking the cows robots or traditional parlour? zerograzing sounds good and would be probably be cheaper than a tmr all year round, i wonder to farmers have a short memory sometimes with all the wet summers not so long ago and fields of cows walking more grass into the ground than they were eating! theres another plus to your plan;)

i would love to get into milk also, if i go low cost it would be low cow numbers low risk low returns due to the land available around the yard itsself
or i could go like you high cost (parlour zerograzer cubicle shed feed cost etc) high cow numbers and maybe high returns ,

the problem is like your plan above the financial risk if the milk price plumits your stuck with a high cost high payment enterprise, on the low cost system its a bit more flexible.
i still think the system your planning would work if you do your sums right and try and speak to someone on a similar system

Thanks FD

First positive reply .
It would have to be a parlor, I'd love to go robots but I doubt it'll be in the budget.
As for wanting to get into dairying I know what you mean, so i'm just going to go do it. But i'm doing my homework first.

Gballs

Ps. What's TMR ???...

dar31

Gballs wrote: »

Hi Jeff & thanks for the reply.

To answer your questions first:
Indoors because the farm of 70 acres is in 4 parts and is of heavy land and i.m thinking i'll be able to have a higher stocking rate if I zerograze and on chance of poaching.
Straw bed to keep lameness to a minimum sence I want the cows in all yr round and also I don't believe that putting slurry on land time after time is a good idea, it gets rid of natural airation while manure will have worms and thus should hopefuly increase the way nature intended it to be.
Zerograse - as mentioned above.
Mountbelards because i've read there milk has a higher natural content of fats and protein thus hopefully yielding a higher price/ltr.
As for managing a high yielding heard. I have very little experience in dairying, but I love it so i'll learn and learn fast.
It'll be 2015 before this kicks off,so I know what your saying about the price but rough calculations are about 16 cent/ltr but more work need to be done on this.
Ps. My neighbour runs a zerograzing system and he is booming, even in 09 he did well.

what dose the 16c/l refer to, milk price, input costs, profit, cost of set up
if you can get a tractor and zero grazer out on the land then you can get cows out.
straw bedding will increase mastitis, labour intensive, cost of storing dung.
the system you are looking at will only work with holestiens, montys are out.
ayr milking will require a liquid contract or at least winter contract. you will loose your shirt milking at base price
have you any facilities at the moment??

how big is you biggest block of land, are the 4 block a distance away or just cross a road, how big is the biggest block including crossing road.

as jeff said 100 cows, cheap and chirpy.

Bizzum

Gballs wrote: »

Ps. What's TMR ???...

Total mixed ration?

ihatetractors

Is that the feed system keenan do with some consultantancy crowd??

Gballs, just seen there, would you be renting land for silage or buying in silage?
Would you be in a tillage region as the cost of transport of straw will be huge at the rates diesels climbing!.
Sounds like your idea could work, as long as figures add up and is well managed.

Just wondering though, i thaught after 2015 there is going to be a 'buy in' to processers for extra quota say, if you didnt already have some or wanted more?. Could it be an option to look into the 40 k free gallons (what ever it is)?, a year or two early, cost for stock will be big imo, and when quota goes you;d need to avoid the little teething problems as margins will be so small per cow at or near 16c/l

Gballs

16 cent/ltr is running costs but as I said this needs more work, not really worried about start up costs like shed machinery parlor stock ect as once there up and done right thats more or less it, as long as what i'm intending in doing is profitable.
I'm hell bent on the zerograzing system biggest block of land is 20 acres and with working off only 70 acres a high stocking rate would be vital.
I would zerograze the 70 acres and get as much grass as pissible, supplement with maize and possibly (fodder beet ?)and buy in all other feed.
Wasn't really hooked on a liquid milk contract, more interested in supplying high fats & protein.
As for straw bed and mastitis, was hoping putting lime out on the bed would take care of that but open to correction, have a supply of straw within 10K.
Am I not right in sayin that leaving cows on cubicles (even with mats) and slats will result in lameness especially when there in all year.

F.D

gballs how many cows are you hoping to run on this system?
say if you can typically run 1 cow per acre on normal grazing what would you reckon you can stock with the zerograzer?
if your hell bent on dung i can see aproblem been trying to get it to rot down quick enough while zero grazing, at least with slurry you could probably put out a few loads every week following the zerograzer and top up with nitrogen if neccessary,
as long as you aerate i cant see it been to much of a problem
seen this on the farmers weekly putting chopped straw on cubicles thought it was a good idea if you had a lagoon you would probably still have a good amount of solids you could seperate and still take the liquid and spread it just an idea? just need some one with a chopper baler
http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2011/02/04/125394/Chopping-bedding-straw-on-the-baler-cuts-out-double.htm


also why do you need a supplement like maize beet etc if your not winter milking? if your zergrazing and feed a good meal would you not have a good enough yield ?

F.D

Gballs wrote: »

Am I not right in sayin that leaving cows on cubicles (even with mats) and slats will result in lameness especially when there in all year.

in holland cows are never off slats i think its all down to managment especially keeping them clean and dry, why not have a cubicle shed and a corner where you can put cows in on straw if they become lame then you have the best of both worlds

F.D

ihatetractors wrote: »

Is that the feed system keenan do with some consultantancy crowd??

it is not really a keenan idea, its really what ration you make up yourself going on the feed values of what you put in it,

PMU

F.D wrote: »

cant see why it would not work, look at the uk there is a lot of high yielding herds housed all year round and a low milk price and they seem to make it work, i would imagine the key would be all year round milking, i can see it been where the real money is in 2015 with most aiming to produce on a low cost summer grass system,will a flood of milk = price drop? cubicles would be a must to cut down on bedding costs, interesting to hear what way you plan on milking the cows robots or traditional parlour? zerograzing sounds good and would be probably be cheaper than a tmr all year round, i wonder to farmers have a short memory sometimes with all the wet summers not so long ago and fields of cows walking more grass into the ground than they were eating! theres another plus to your plan;)

i would love to get into milk also, if i go low cost it would be low cow numbers low risk low returns due to the land available around the yard itsself
or i could go like you high cost (parlour zerograzer cubicle shed feed cost etc) high cow numbers and maybe high returns ,

the problem is like your plan above the financial risk if the milk price plumits your stuck with a high cost high payment enterprise, on the low cost system its a bit more flexible.
i still think the system your planning would work if you do your sums right and try and speak to someone on a similar system

the most important thing would be a financial plan.a lot of these UK herds are losing money in a high imput system.profit monitor results show that while variable costs are around 16p, fixed costs are also very high. you could consider swapping your outside land blocks with a neighbour and run a low cost grass system(spring calving,manafacturing milk). get a job on a low cost and later a high cost farm and you will get a better idea of what it takes to make money in dairying.PAT

funny man

Gballs wrote: »

Hi Lads

Can anyone tell me if this might be a viable farming plan.
Right now I have 70 acres but hoping to acquire another 20 or 30 in the near future.
My plan is to go into dairy farming when the quota goes in 2015, house cows all year round in a vrey open plan straw bed shed and zerograze.
Because the farm is so small and there is little or no chance of renting land I was intending to buy all winter forage and also extra supplement during the milking period.
The plan is to have a high yielding Mountbelard heard and have as high of stocking rate as possible.
I will be starting from scratch but love hard work, but dont want to be waisting money if its not a viable project.
In time there might be a chance to increase the size of the farm maybe up to 150/200 acres but the farming strategy would stay the same as the land is very fragmented but all within 2km.
WHAT DO YE THINK ???...

a couple of questions;
Have you got the buildings already in place?
Have you stock to sell to go against dairy stock purchases?
Have you any idea of the margin in producing milk?
Have you costings done on the set-up; cows, sheds(parlour, accommodation, slurry storage, silo pits, feed sheds,etc.) machinery, and Labour (more required with that system)?
Will the farm be able to carry the debt (€2500/cow is a good marker for a set-up farm)?


Just remember Hard work is a given setting up or indeed running a dairy farm especially if you can't get scale to pay for an employee.

funny man

Gballs wrote: »

16 cent/ltr is running costs but as I said this needs more work, not really worried about start up costs like shed machinery parlor stock ect as once there up and done right thats more or less it, as long as what i'm intending in doing is profitable.
I'm hell bent on the zerograzing system biggest block of land is 20 acres and with working off only 70 acres a high stocking rate would be vital.
I would zerograze the 70 acres and get as much grass as pissible, supplement with maize and possibly (fodder beet ?)and buy in all other feed.
Wasn't really hooked on a liquid milk contract, more interested in supplying high fats & protein.
As for straw bed and mastitis, was hoping putting lime out on the bed would take care of that but open to correction, have a supply of straw within 10K.
Am I not right in sayin that leaving cows on cubicles (even with mats) and slats will result in lameness especially when there in all year.

Sorry Gballs i missed this 16c/ltr running costs, is that just variable costs(feed, fert, vet, contractor,etc.,etc.), your not worried about the capital cost. You must have a good stash put aside cause fixed costs will take about 5-8c/l on good dairy farms, ask any dairy farmer who done building work in the last 3 years.
To run your system there are several threats to the business like Milk price, interest rates, feed and fert prices, you don't have the luxury of not being hooked on liquid price as you'll see from other threads here it takes more money to produce milk indoors so they need a higher price.

dar31

from the dpm received for winter milk so far for 2010.
average total costs are 22.49 c/l
ave net margin is 9.8 c/l
considering op is only starting out in dairying he will have to be on the ball to achieve these ave figures
(considering less than 50% of farmers do a dpm, therefore these figures are the average for the top 50% of farmers)

probably looking at 60 cows 500,000l max €49,000 income - tax 9,000

set up €2000/ cow(€2500- some existing capital)= €120,000+ interest
€150,000 (guessed)
€15,000 a year repayments
€40,000 - €15000 = €25,000

these figures are being VERY generous
and set up cost are all second hand equipment and the bare essentials

funny man

dar31 wrote: »

from the dpm received for winter milk so far for 2010.
average total costs are 22.49 c/l
ave net margin is 9.8 c/l
considering op is only starting out in dairying he will have to be on the ball to achieve these ave figures
(considering less than 50% of farmers do a dpm, therefore these figures are the average for the top 50% of farmers)

probably looking at 60 cows 500,000l max €49,000 income - tax 9,000

set up €2000/ cow(€2500- some existing capital)= €120,000+ interest
€150,000 (guessed)
€15,000 a year repayments
€40,000 - €15000 = €25,000

these figures are being VERY generous
and set up cost are all second hand equipment and the bare essentials

it's mostly good operators that do dpm dairy profit monitor and i maybe wrong but the figure i heard was about 2% of dairy farmers complete it, so as you indicated these figures should come with a warning and that they would be from established farms. There would be higher costs on a set-up farm.
i'm not sure €2000/cow would cover all, will really depend on what facilities are already on the farm, costs from the greenfield farm in kilkenny i think were over €3000/cow and that was for some very basic set-up that wouldn't work on an indoor system.

dar31

funny man wrote: »

it's mostly good operators that do dpm dairy profit monitor and i maybe wrong but the figure i heard was about 2% of dairy farmers complete it, so as you indicated these figures should come with a warning and that they would be from established farms. There would be higher costs on a set-up farm.
i'm not sure €2000/cow would cover all, will really depend on what facilities are already on the farm, costs from the greenfield farm in kilkenny i think were over €3000/cow and that was for some very basic set-up that wouldn't work on an indoor system.

yea in hinds sight you could easily double the set up costs, may be even more if looking at tmr and feed to yield in parlour.

best advise to the op, stay living with the parents, stop socializing , and thing of becoming a bachelor, might have some chance

irishh_bob

Gballs wrote: »

Hi Lads

Can anyone tell me if this might be a viable farming plan.
Right now I have 70 acres but hoping to acquire another 20 or 30 in the near future.
My plan is to go into dairy farming when the quota goes in 2015, house cows all year round in a vrey open plan straw bed shed and zerograze.
Because the farm is so small and there is little or no chance of renting land I was intending to buy all winter forage and also extra supplement during the milking period.
The plan is to have a high yielding Mountbelard heard and have as high of stocking rate as possible.
I will be starting from scratch but love hard work, but dont want to be waisting money if its not a viable project.
In time there might be a chance to increase the size of the farm maybe up to 150/200 acres but the farming strategy would stay the same as the land is very fragmented but all within 2km.
WHAT DO YE THINK ???...

untill you mentioned milking montbeliardes , i thought your idea was interesting , montys are not that high of yielders and are not efficent turners of feed into milk compared to holstiens or even jerseys for that matter , anyone who would start an indoor only dairy herd would milk nothing but high yielding holstiens as a high input system like you are proposing would be incompatible with anything else , nothing wrong with the rest of your idea although i think you would be inviting a huge amount of work by going for a straw beded house , i myself am a fan of zero grazing , unlike jack kennedy , i dont believe every farm in ireland is a replica of moorepark

Gballs

FD i’m hoping to get my hands on an extra 20 acres which would bring me up to 90 acres and was hoping to run a herd of 150 cows which was why I said i’d need maize feed also, this would be feed in conjunction with grass and meal. I’ll need to have a yield in the region of 10k ltr, but at that there should be a good income out of it.
Thanks for the link looks a great job and would definitely have a place in my system. Would a conventional round baler with a double chop do the same job ?...
As for the dung i’d definitely need a rear discharge spreader, it seems to chop it up well. The break down would need to be around 21+ days, and I could always zerograze that little bit higher. I also think i’d have an aerator on the front linkage when spreading.
As for Holland i’d definitely be taking a trip before starting anything, the biggest commodity in the world today is information (in my humble opion).
Hi PMU
Your point is very true, but as for getting a job on farms with different systems, time is against me. I’ll just need to have my home work done.
FUNNY MAN
I just have the land so starting from scratch really, but i think that has it’s advantages too. Excluding fixtures and machinery running costs will be in the region of 16 cent/ltr. I have the set up costs but I don’t want to waste my money, this is an investment not a shot in the dark.
Dar31
Please see above for setup costs, I just need it to be profitable 50/60K/yr. It is do-able.
Irishh Bob
I’m not set on mountbelards, but was looking at the higher fats and protein in yields, but open to change. Dairy herds producing high fats and protein can receive higher p/ltr than liquid milk producers. I share your opinion on zero grazing, I have a Dutch neighbour and you should see what he does with a zero grazing system. As for Jack Kennedy don’t get me started, i’ll just leave it at I share your opinion.
Thanks for the feedback keep it coming...
Ps. Sorry about the essay.

jeff greene

Whatever about chosen system or setup costs, dairy farming is demanding, and frustrating at times on well run established farms let alone new ventures, you really need to see if its for you and if you have the skills. Managing a 10,000litre herd is not to be taken for granted

Also do some research on sand cubicles, everything I read says there the best for cows


Have you ever considered selling your present farm and getting a larger, more suitable block? While your proposed plan is workable it needs alot of diesel, which is only to get dearer.

JohnBoy

I'm no expert, just an interested amateur, but if I was going down your route I'd be going with sand bedded cubicle houses, straw is a huge cost and labour issue, plus with the intensive grass cropping you'll need to operate I think slurry would be much better than dung.

Like I say, no expert here.


Also the only way you cant include your setup costs if if you have every penny of it in the bank already (and if you do then good for you, I'd probably do the same if I had the cash) and I think 3k/cow would be the minimum for your system, I could easily see it growing to 4k+ by the time you've a tractor, zero grazer and slurry tanker bought.

F.D

Gballs this thread is interesting and makes a change from the normal grass based low cost systems, keep it up, to answer your question a normal round baler with chopper would be fine i'd imagine depending on how many knives it has, its good to see you are trying to get dung into your plans but i'd have my doubts as to how it will fit into your system even keeping the z'geazer up that few inches if its still fresh it will still be on top of the grass, if you want to wait until its rotted down sufficently you will need a hell of a lot of space to pile it up. I suppose you could use it on ground for maize or reseeding. cubicles and sand do seem to be the best for cows but i wonder how good it is for the farmer i think it makes a mess of scrapers and machinery afterwards, the place i used to work in used to pile up sawdust every month or so at the top of the cubicles then you would drag it down with the hand scraper every morning and evening.
With 150 cows given 10k litres thats a lot of milking time and attention to keep them up there are you sure you are factoring in enough time for all them dutys plus the added task of drawing in grass to them, i suppose it depends on the parlour how long it takes to strig them out, wash, dip etc
Dont get me wrong i'm not against your idea just wondering what your thoughts are
I like your idea of aerating on the front linkage could work well with the zero grazer too especially if you would be going out and putting slurry out afterwards
As for the cost of every thing is your sure its the right system and confident it will work even at low margins without you killing your self for it why not

Pat the lad

Long time since I miked a cow - but heres my pennies worth. I think you will have to include all costs into the equation if you want get a fair&true calculatin of your costs/margin's. this includes sheds,plant & equipment,machinery, storage of meal/feed,overheads,wages(for you + others), set up and buying cows & micellious etc - everything!!! if not, you a codding yourself.

I think if you are going for 365 24/7 indoor system then you have to go with an as labour free setup as possible i.e. robot milking machines, Slatts and/or auto matic scrapers/ stand off pad etc - get a read of the low cost system Glanbia (I think) set up in Kilkenny for ideas. If you don't you will be a slave to it or you will have to employ staff - which will just take your profit away.

Dung for me isn't a runner with a high turn over grazing/zero grazing system - unless you can exchange it with tillage men for discount on cererals etc or spread it off season - but you need it to grow grass feb-Nov. If I was you, I'd go the slurry route - get a 2nd hand slurry tanker & injector system - use slurry (and clover based grass mix) to produce grass - reduce your bagged fertiliser bill as much as possible.

Look I sure there can be a living made from it - but just for you at the herd size of 100-150 cows. thats why do your sums carefully - go as automated system as you can, it may cost more now but it should pay for itself over time - plus I assume you are a young lad - you won't be young forever -!!! plus you want to have a life outside farming i.e. social life - wife & Kids , sports etc -so think Long term!!!!!!!!!
The very best of luck - hope it works out for you!!!

Gballs

I wouldn't sell but would to buy a bigger block and use what I have as an out farm, but there's no affording that.
I'm starting from a green field site and am open to suggestions on the best way to go. You can treat this like your own moorepark:D the only things you have to include are, all year round housing & zero grazing. Thanks for the the feed back so far.
Ps. Would much preferr to go with dung but that's not set in stone, and cow comfort is a must.

5live

From what ive seen of dung, it will take at least a year to decompose enough to spread with little straw or dung there not to interfere with grass cutting. Therefore you will need a huge storage area(covered?) and turn it probably twice before spreading in october/november after the final cut. As a previous poster has said, cubicles and slurry with dribble bar/injectors would make more sense imo. And i dont think you have fixed costs included in your costs. From a greenfield site to 100 cows would be costing close to 150k. To cover that over 10 years(?) is close to 20k a year in repayments alone and i am being conservetive in that figure. Longer terms will mean your depreciation is gone and your repayments are treated like income(from personal experience) with a nice tax bill every october. I wish you well but a smaller beginning sooner as a previous poster said may help. Keep us posted on your thoughts as it is an interesting idea and potentially viable:pac:

jeff greene

With my advice, do as I say not what I do , I’m pretty close to your proposed system anyway but its very dependent on prices to make money. I’m tight for land at home and buffer all year round but I get the cows out for welfare reasons mainly.


Dung shouldn’t really be a issue, maize will take a good bit, compost the dung for grassland etc


You don’t need to be the new Moorpark, there are many doing it already

Gballs

Cheers FD
My idea with the dung was to pile it for the first year and lit rot, I would be spreading pig slurry that yearand then for the dung I would have a continous over-lap.
As for the parlor I'd be thinking of a 20 unit, this would give me space to increase numbers if I got my hands on more land.
I agree Pat, I would have to cost everything but if it's a worth while project I don't mind spending the money. As for the robotic milkers I'd love to have them but they'll have to come down in price, hopefully they will by the time I start this.
If I was buying a tanker and injection system I'd go for new, I read there's a 40% grant with themas long as there new.

Gballs

Hi Jeff
As you are running a somewhat simlar system already, are my running costs/ltr accurate ?...
I'd love to be able let the cows out but I just don't have a block big enough.

Pacoa

I was wondering if you ever considered milking goats? They'd be more suited to an indoor system and you could start straight away as there's no quota so no need to wait till 2015.
As for the dung side of things you won't need a lot of storage as others have suggested cause you can store dung in a field from the middle of jan to november 1st so you only need storage for two and a half months, right? If not im screwed cause i've just finished putting dung out in a field .
The dung would also fit in well with maize and a cereal operation which you should consider doing too. You'd have grain at first cost and plenty of straw for bedding. You wouldn't want to be paying current prices for straw now would you?

keep going

why are you so mad on zero grazing and housing. i honestly believe you are setting you are setting yourself up for a life of hard work and stress about repayments. why not milk 100 to 130 cows on a grass based system with a small outwintering pad. instead of bringing in feed look at options like wintering somewhere else and just move the cows twice a year when dry. diesel is not going to get cheaper. just throwing it out there and remember milk price is going to average 30 cent or less.

Gballs

I had thought of goats but there are a lot more than you may think at that nowadays. Is the export demand there and even if it is who is there to market it. We have a tiny population here and no market means no price. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Keep Going I'm set on housing all yr & zero grazing because my biggest block is only 20 aces and the farm is in 4 blocks. I need to maximise grass and resolve the fragmentation issues.

funny man

Gballs wrote: »

I wouldn't sell but would to buy a bigger block and use what I have as an out farm, but there's no affording that.
I'm starting from a green field site and am open to suggestions on the best way to go. You can treat this like your own moorepark:D the only things you have to include are, all year round housing & zero grazing. Thanks for the the feed back so far.
Ps. Would much preferr to go with dung but that's not set in stone, and cow comfort is a must.

Yea sounds like trial work out of moorepark, something they would be at but they wouldn't be trying to make aliving out of it.
I think you'll make a go of it, you have deep pockets, a good interest in it and a will to succeed, by the sounds of it you wont need to borrow this is good because no bank will give money out with a scetchy plan like yours.
When you do out your costs, it should include fixed costs also as the machinery and buildings don't last forever, it also gives an idication of a return on investment (ROI). just for information the total costs on the average winter milk herds on Profit monitor for 2010 was 21.4 cent/litre.

linebacker52

Before you do anything you need approach creamires to make sure they are going to take your milk there is very little spare capacity in the processing industry.when quotas go there its not automatic they will accept milk from just anybody. You are most likely looking at a lower milk price than existing than existing suppliers to pay for expansion

And that's before you talk to the banks this is what you need to be worrying about not dung and zero grazing that won't matter without somewhere to send the milk and money to spend on buildings

irishh_bob

keep going wrote: »

why are you so mad on zero grazing and housing. i honestly believe you are setting you are setting yourself up for a life of hard work and stress about repayments. why not milk 100 to 130 cows on a grass based system with a small outwintering pad. instead of bringing in feed look at options like wintering somewhere else and just move the cows twice a year when dry. diesel is not going to get cheaper. just throwing it out there and remember milk price is going to average 30 cent or less.

wintering pads are both labour intensive ( imagine herding a cow about to calve off one at 12 o clock at night ) and ( in the long run ) expensive to maintain , agree about disel costs becoming an issue

Tipp Man

Haven't got time for a detailed reply but a couple of observations from the original poster which i would disagree with:

1) if you want indoor milk you need holsteins milking well
2) I think the straw bed shed idea is a big mistake - great comfort but a huge annual cost
3) I think you are way underestimating your costs per litre in an indoor system
4) I think zero grazing is the wrong use of your land - personally I'd do 20 acres maize, 20 acres wholecrop, 35 acres silage cut 3 times. cows never get fresh grass
5) work out what above would feed in terms of cow numbers. This should be your starting point - if you are talking about buying in huge quantities or acres of maize or silage then your costs will be huge
6) You are nuts to ignore fixed costs especially in an indoor system where the facilities need to be A1 to manage
7) Do not underestimate the cost of slurry (or dung which i fail to see can work with a zero grazer)
8) your machinery costs will be higher than you think - you would need a good diet feeder, probably a vacuum tank as loads of slurry, good tractor to run said tanker, probably a wheeled loader to fill diet feeder.

If you are hell bent on milking cows then sell all your little bits of land and buy a decent place for cows - 90 acres decent land would milk 100 cows fairly handy. Your 70 acres in small lots should sell for more per acre than a bigger farm in 1 block (although transaction costs will be large and should defo not be ignored)

irishh_bob

Tipp Man wrote: »

Haven't got time for a detailed reply but a couple of observations from the original poster which i would disagree with:

1) if you want indoor milk you need holsteins milking well
2) I think the straw bed shed idea is a big mistake - great comfort but a huge annual cost
3) I think you are way underestimating your costs per litre in an indoor system
4) I think zero grazing is the wrong use of your land - personally I'd do 20 acres maize, 20 acres wholecrop, 35 acres silage cut 3 times. cows never get fresh grass
5) work out what above would feed in terms of cow numbers. This should be your starting point - if you are talking about buying in huge quantities or acres of maize or silage then your costs will be huge
6) You are nuts to ignore fixed costs especially in an indoor system where the facilities need to be A1 to manage
7) Do not underestimate the cost of slurry (or dung which i fail to see can work with a zero grazer)
8) your machinery costs will be higher than you think - you would need a good diet feeder, probably a vacuum tank as loads of slurry, good tractor to run said tanker, probably a wheeled loader to fill diet feeder.

If you are hell bent on milking cows then sell all your little bits of land and buy a decent place for cows - 90 acres decent land would milk 100 cows fairly handy. Your 70 acres in small lots should sell for more per acre than a bigger farm in 1 block (although transaction costs will be large and should defo not be ignored)

great advice there but ive one problem

selling a few blocks of land to replace it with one large block makes you poor , you pay 25% capital gains tax on what you sell and then 9% stamp duty on the new block unless you are under 35 , i feel the IFA should be pressing the issue of rollover relief much harder , its a serious obstacle to consolidation and expansion

Tipp Man

irishh_bob wrote: »

great advice there but ive one problem

selling a few blocks of land to replace it with one large block makes you poor , you pay 25% capital gains tax on what you sell and then 9% stamp duty on the new block unless you are under 35 , i feel the IFA should be pressing the issue of rollover relief much harder , its a serious obstacle to consolidation and expansion

Oh agreed completely, that what i meant by transaction costs - it should never have been done away with in the first place. I have no idea how they expect farmers to expand to meet the Harvest 2020 targes when as you have clearly outlined it makes it nearly impossible for somebody like the op to sell a few bits of land to consolidate

The IFA need to press hard on the new government on this issue

F.D

Tipp Man wrote: »

it makes it nearly impossible for somebody like the op to sell a few bits of land to consolidate

I Think it will be impossible to consolidate anyway no matter ho many tax breaks benifits there is, there is too many factors,
i.e no land available,
neighbour would rather sow trees than rent or sell it to you,
the cost of paying it back,
Not wanting to move to another county just for farming sake.
you'll never get a block big enough to get to the level you want to achieve so you might sell a few 20 acre fields to get a few 40 acre block somewhere else which is stilll not big enough or near enough to merge with any great effect
I think the OP is thinking along the right track make what you have work for you and if there is tillage in the area let them sow the maize as a break crop at a lower rate in lieu of slurry / dung to put organic matter back into his soil etc

keep going

irishh_bob wrote: »

wintering pads are both labour intensive ( imagine herding a cow about to calve off one at 12 o clock at night ) and ( in the long run ) expensive to maintain , agree about disel costs becoming an issue

yeah expensive to run if wintered full season but you really only need them to stand off cows during grazing season. as for, buddy of mine has one and has it divided in three with wire. cows near calving go into middle section for awhile before calving and into last section for calving .mind you i dont have one as i made my housing descions back in 07.but my argument is more with in door focus with feeding rather than grass based

keep going

Gballs wrote: »

I had thought of goats but there are a lot more than you may think at that nowadays. Is the export demand there and even if it is who is there to market it. We have a tiny population here and no market means no price. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Keep Going I'm set on housing all yr & zero grazing because my biggest block is only 20 aces and the farm is in 4 blocks. I need to maximise grass and resolve the fragmentation issues.

i didnt see your age anywhere but i d love to be you if you are twenty. anorther idea so, take along lease on a decent sized block and milk there and winter at home with whatever system you like.if your not going to sell blocks at home you probaly never be able to buy else where(10000 an acre means 25000 in earned income by the time you have paid for it). if you go down the indoor route you are going to be renting land or feed anyway

hillclimber

Have to admire the ops enthusiasm but for what its worth feel buying in most feed is asking for trouble. Hugely costly , would you not be better off perhaps leasing alarge block of land somewhere else, use your capital to buy the stock etc. Probably a better way of building up your net worth, stock can always be sold if it doesnt work out , sheds not so easily.

Gballs

I'd love to rent land but as FD says neighbours would rather slit your throat than see you in there land. it's a sad thing to say that people are bitter just because your interested in farming and young.
The general consensus seems to be forget about straw bedding.
I have a plan "B" but i'm not sure how i'll manage cow comfort and I don't have free draining land.
www.fwi.co.uk/.../VIDEO-Keeping-dairy-cows-outdoors-all-year.htm

But I'm not sure how i'll be able to adopt it to suit what I have to work with. But I like the housing design, I'd have mats for the cubicles and i'm thinking a matted feeding area. And I'm thinking slats either side of the cibicles ( would rain water be an issue ).
Ps. The cows would still have to be in an enclosed ares.

ihatetractors

Gballs, the more meat you put to the bones i think your mad!

So lets say,
-Herd 100+k odd for a decent holstein herd, with say a give or take 10-20% replacement rate(higher id reckon for animals housed in doors as holis have bad feet as it is etc..)
-Parlour atleast another 100k, maybe abit more
-Machinery atleast another 100k, never mind depreciation
-Sheds, fitted out for all year round, 200-250k?...
-Silage slab, storage sheds etc say 30k..?

And then with the whispers that new entrants either have to pay in/ recieve a bit less in price... I realy think you need to talk to an accountant/adviser, Hell bank man will be looking for a fully costed buisness plan, so i hope you've alot of money under the pillow 0_o

keep going

Gballs wrote: »

I'd love to rent land but as FD says neighbours would rather slit your throat than see you in there land. it's a sad thing to say that people are bitter just because your interested in farming and young.
i always say you have to mind your land lord as good as your wife, but track record in renting land is fierce important.
maybe some sort of profit share agreement, lots of fellas would like to make money out of milk but dont want the work.any farm in a radius of 12 miles could work and you could pay someone to milk there during the spring when you are busy just deliver the calved cows,

barryoc1

I didnt see it mentioned any where but i reckon you could have serious issues with keeping down you SCC and TBC with cows being indoors all the time and trying to keep them clean. Also i was at a dairy discussion group meeting lately and there was only 1 out of 20 in the group doing winter milk as it was the general consensus that it cost too much to produce milk indoors rather than outdoors on grass.

cjpm

barryoc1 wrote: »

I didnt see it mentioned any where but i reckon you could have serious issues with keeping down you SCC and TBC with cows being indoors all the time and trying to keep them clean. Also i was at a dairy discussion group meeting lately and there was only 1 out of 20 in the group doing winter milk as it was the general consensus that it cost too much to produce milk indoors rather than outdoors on grass.

And after the winter we've had.....

funny man

barryoc1 wrote: »

I didnt see it mentioned any where but i reckon you could have serious issues with keeping down you SCC and TBC with cows being indoors all the time and trying to keep them clean. Also i was at a dairy discussion group meeting lately and there was only 1 out of 20 in the group doing winter milk as it was the general consensus that it cost too much to produce milk indoors rather than outdoors on grass.

winter milk is one thing but all year round indoor system, well now thats a total different proposition. but as i said previously if he has money to burn he won't find an easier way of doing it. on reading down through Gballs posts they are high on imagination and low on the practical side of running a business, the last thing i'd be cocerned about is straw v cubicles.
alot of good advice was given out re; working on different types of farms and looking at all the options leasing, buying ,etc., and still hell bent on steaming ahead , she/he must know something that more established farmers don't know. i put in a figure for average total costs on DPM farms as 21.4cent/litre for 2010 which was by all accounts a good year and these farmers would have some grazing ground for the summer, i can't for the life of me understand how you could make any money out of it because you will need at least one full time worker along with yourself and you will be busy and yet won't have the scale to cover the extra labour cost.