Farming Chit Chat

tanko

Does anyone know what time the open day in grange starts at tomorrow?

reilig

tanko wrote: »

Does anyone know what time the open day in grange starts at tomorrow?

Tours start from 11am.

wesleysniper38

reilig wrote: »

Anyone else go to Marty Lenehan's Better Farm Walk in Sligo yesterday?

I thought it was a good display. It just goes to show how much extra revenue a little bit of attention to detail can yield. His gross margin has increased by almost €24000 in 3 years, his total weinling weights have increased by almost 12,000kg and his variable cost per cow has been significantly reduced.

He only ownes 16 acres. The rest is rented (135 acres). It gives me belief that, when he can do this on rented land, suckler farmers who own their own land and can adopt some of the practices being promoted here have a future.

Only 2 criticisms of the day:

1. Bringing us to the 16 acres that he owns - probably some of the finest quality land in the country was like serving take away chips on the family silver. It would be nice to see his "heavy land" in the flesh and see how it is managed.

2. The majority of farmers in this country are part-timers. Teagasc could have a far better attendance if they ran something like this on a saturday. In saying that, I'd estimate that there were over 500 people at the morning session.

I dont know man. I cant see a living on that kind of enterprise...
He's a hard goer no doubt but unless he's renting that land at approx 80e an acre then hes chasin his tail to get a wage.

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

Anyone else go to Marty Lenehan's Better Farm Walk in Sligo yesterday?
.........

Only 2 criticisms of the day:

1. Bringing us to the 16 acres that he owns - probably some of the finest quality land in the country was like serving take away chips on the family silver. It would be nice to see his "heavy land" in the flesh and see how it is managed.

2. The majority of farmers in this country are part-timers. Teagasc could have a far better attendance if they ran something like this on a saturday. In saying that, I'd estimate that there were over 500 people at the morning session.

No didn't go Reilig. I half thought about it, but even the evening session would require taking a half day off work and I'm down to the wire with days off this year. Any photos??

Your criticisms would be criticisms that I would apply to a lot of farm walks I've been on. Yes it's nice looking at the powerwashed sheds and the nicely topped paddocks on the best of their land. Just don't be afraid to show us the other things not looking their best. The few cattle that didn't thrive for one reason or another, ruts that were made in heavy paddocks and the rushes that are starting to come. Explain to us 'the plan' for these. It would give a more rounded perspective on things and lads wouldn't be going home as disillusioned and putting themselve under pressure to acheive the impossible.

Re Saturday events. I totall agree. There should be more of them Perhaps they intentionally do this to limit attendance? Or perhaps it is geared towards full time guys. I don't know.

JohnBoy

Or perhaps they're organised by civil servants?

reilig

wesleysniper38 wrote: »

I dont know man. I cant see a living on that kind of enterprise...
He's a hard goer no doubt but unless he's renting that land at approx 80e an acre then hes chasin his tail to get a wage.

Well, in talking to him, he told us that 3 years ago, before he started in the better farm program, he was just about making a profit without touching his SFP from his enterprise when his rental costs were deducted from his gross margin. In 3 years, he has turned things around and is making almost €24,000 + his SFP (amount undisclosed) on top.
When you consider that the majority of suckler farmers in this country aren't making profit at all from their farming enterprise and most are having to use some of their SFP to run their farm, then I think that he is doing very well and unless his fixed costs are huge (such as tractors and machinery), he is getting an ok wage from it. At the end of the day, fixed costs like tractors and machinery are a choice of his own - he chooses to spend this money as opposed to having to spend it to run the farm.

reilig

JohnBoy wrote: »

Or perhaps they're organised by civil servants?

I believe that may be the root of the problem.

vanderbadger

reilig wrote: »

Well, in talking to him, he told us that 3 years ago, before he started in the better farm program, he was just about making a profit without touching his SFP from his enterprise when his rental costs were deducted from his gross margin. In 3 years, he has turned things around and is making almost €24,000 + his SFP (amount undisclosed) on top.
When you consider that the majority of suckler farmers in this country aren't making profit at all from their farming enterprise and most are having to use some of their SFP to run their farm, then I think that he is doing very well and unless his fixed costs are huge (such as tractors and machinery), he is getting an ok wage from it. At the end of the day, fixed costs like tractors and machinery are a choice of his own - he chooses to spend this money as opposed to having to spend it to run the farm.

what type of cows was he running reilig?

bob charles

reilig wrote: »

Well, in talking to him, he told us that 3 years ago, before he started in the better farm program, he was just about making a profit without touching his SFP from his enterprise when his rental costs were deducted from his gross margin. In 3 years, he has turned things around and is making almost €24,000 + his SFP (amount undisclosed) on top.
When you consider that the majority of suckler farmers in this country aren't making profit at all from their farming enterprise and most are having to use some of their SFP to run their farm, then I think that he is doing very well and unless his fixed costs are huge (such as tractors and machinery), he is getting an ok wage from it. At the end of the day, fixed costs like tractors and machinery are a choice of his own - he chooses to spend this money as opposed to having to spend it to run the farm.

but its easy enough to show to a crowd that you are making money, making a GM of such and such. Remember seeing a piece about one of them guys in the IFJ and it showed a picture of a job he just done. Firstly it was downright dangerous (thats another matter) and then it gave the price of the job, you could see exactly from the photo the materials used and there his complete price for the job was only about 60% cost of materials

nashmach

I really can't understand this fascination with Gross Margin.

Net Profit should be the key figure - you don't live off Gross Margin.

reilig

vanderbadger wrote: »

what type of cows was he running reilig?

Anything and everything really. He said that he likes Ch X Sim cows. But when you look through his cattle, he has a fair mix of Ch x Lim and a few BB's. The message from the walk was that it doesn't really matter what type of cows you have as long as they are continental. He is doing a lot of work to try to bring more milk to the herd through replacements by crossing his milkiest cows to a milky Sim bull or a milky Lim bull.

Big emphasis on continentals. He had a good laugh at someone who suggested that he could bring more milk into the herd by buying heifers off Dairy cows. He said that it would only reduce weinling quality.
Big emphasis on one calf per cow per year. He said that he has no "daisies" (PETS) on the farm and if a cow isn't in calf, she is gotten rid of no matter how good she is.

He calves 45 in Autumn and 45 in spring. He has a 3 month calving window for both caklving season. Anything not in calf for these windows gets the gate.

He concentrates on feeding calves on grass - his autumn born bulls were sold in July. They averaged over 500kg each and only ate €75 of meal each.

He runs a CH stock Bull and a Sim stock bull - and uses ai on some also.

A lot of emphasis placed on soil samples on the farm. He is deficient in P and K. Like ourselves, he has spread only a lot of Urea on top of slurry on ground for years gone by. This year, he went back to fert with higher P and K levels and saw the return.

His shed has a creep gate which allows autumn born calves go out onto his silage ground over the winter to graze. This has a 2 fold benefit - it increases weight gain and reduces the amount of scour & pnumonia (shed related sickness).

He stomach tubes every calf with colostrum after the calf drops from the cow - this has seen a much reduced mortality rate on the farm.

All cows, every year, 6 - 8 weeks before calving get 2 all trace bullets and 1 copper bullet. This has lead to a noticable increased fertility rate across the herd in the last 3 years.

last point I can remember is that all heifers are calved down at 24 months and he has great success with this practice.

reilig

nashmach wrote: »

I really can't understand this fascination with Gross Margin.

Net Profit should be the key figure - you don't live off Gross Margin.

I don't agree.

Gross margin is calculated by the deducting the variable costs from the income. Its a true reflection of how well the farm is doing. A farmer could have a very healthy gross margin but zero profit because he has bought a new tractor or a mower etc when the 165 and pz mower in the shed would have done the job perfectly.

reilig

bob charles wrote: »

but its easy enough to show to a crowd that you are making money, making a GM of such and such. Remember seeing a piece about one of them guys in the IFJ and it showed a picture of a job he just done. Firstly it was downright dangerous (thats another matter) and then it gave the price of the job, you could see exactly from the photo the materials used and there his complete price for the job was only about 60% cost of materials

Slightly pessimistic but I see your point.

At the end of the day, the farm walk was to show people better methods and prictices for suckler farms which if adapted could yield more profit. Every farm is different and not everything taking place on this farm would work on my farm or yours. Whether he spent a fortune on a shed or a machine or a tractor is not mine or your business - its his. His net profit isn't our business either. What he had on display that day were his processes and methods, not his net profits or his investments. The only thing that farmers were supposed to take away that day were his processes and methods and try to adapt some of them to their own situations.

I have no doubt that the processes and methods that he has adopted in the last 3 years are doing 2 things:
1. Increasing the amount that he gets for his animals sold.
2. Decreasing the cost of getting an animal fit the sale day.

nashmach

reilig wrote: »

I don't agree.

Gross margin is calculated by the deducting the variable costs from the income. Its a true reflection of how well the farm is doing. A farmer could have a very healthy gross margin but zero profit because he has bought a new tractor or a mower etc when the 165 and pz mower in the shed would have done the job perfectly.

No other business benchmarks itself off GM - everyone talks about net profit or the return to the shareholder.

However, I do acknowledge that this is benchmark is used as it allows direct comparisons between farms much easier.

reilig

nashmach wrote: »

No other business benchmarks itself off GM - everyone talks about net profit or the return to the shareholder.

However, I do acknowledge that this is benchmark is used as it allows direct comparisons between farms much easier.

I agree with you. But as I said in the post above, the farm walk was not about the farm owners profit. What he spends his extra money on is his own business. It was about reducing costs and increasing sale prices. GM is an accurate way of reflecting this.

nashmach

reilig wrote: »

I agree with you. But as I said in the post above, the farm walk was not about the farm owners profit. What he spends his extra money on is his own business. It was about reducing costs and increasing sale prices. GM is an accurate way of reflecting this.

Agreed. What stocking rate is he running at currently?

As lots of others have said - these should really be moved to a Saturday to help with attendance for part-timers / next generation at home etc.

I must say it still annoys me that the BETTER programme has not moved more to other aspects of beef farming as not everyone is in the suckler game.

JohnBoy

nashmach wrote: »

No other business benchmarks itself off GM - everyone talks about net profit or the return to the shareholder.

However, I do acknowledge that this is benchmark is used as it allows direct comparisons between farms much easier.

Not true at all. Gross margin is the single most important figure in retailing too.

it's what you use to pay your overheads, if you're not generating sufficient gross margin then you're never going to make a profit.

The difference is most businesses don't share their gross margin figures.


to me it's the perfect figure to do like with like comparisons of direct production costs.


I would like to see some standard as to what is or isnt included in the gross margin, and have that in the small print of these articles in the journal.

reilig

nashmach wrote: »

Agreed. What stocking rate is he running at currently?

As lots of others have said - these should really be moved to a Saturday to help with attendance for part-timers / next generation at home etc.

I must say it still annoys me that the BETTER programme has not moved more to other aspects of beef farming as not everyone is in the suckler game.

I think he is at a stocking rate of 1.88L.U./Ha. His goal is to get 2.2, but I think he feels himself that he is never going to reach that. It might be achievable on some of the "better Farms" in the south of the country, but his location and land quality just might not allow this.

I think it was me who said that they should be moved to a saturday

I asked the exact same question to an advisor there about looking at other aspects of beef farming. He told me that they were focused on suckling because they felt that the most advancements and gains were to be made in suckling or in laymans terms, suckler farmers were making nothing or very little and something had to be done to increase profit to ensure that they continued to supply cattle for other types of beef farming. Other types of beef farmers were, on average, to be seen making a profit (or more profit than suckler farmers IYKWIM)

nashmach

JohnBoy wrote: »

Not true at all. Gross margin is the single most important figure in retailing too.

it's what you use to pay your overheads, if you're not generating sufficient gross margin then you're never going to make a profit.

The difference is most businesses don't share their gross margin figures.


to me it's the perfect figure to do like with like comparisons of direct production costs.


I would like to see some standard as to what is or isnt included in the gross margin, and have that in the small print of these articles in the journal.

So taking it to the extreme - an investor comes in and wants to buy your business and they will look at the future stream of gross margin. Not a hope.

All your other points I agree with and have done so above in particular on comparison purposes.

Oh and sorry reilig!

bob charles

reilig wrote: »

I He told me that they were focused on suckling because they felt that the most advancements and gains were to be made in suckling or in laymans terms, suckler farmers were making nothing or very little and something had to be done to increase profit to ensure that they continued to supply cattle for other types of beef farming. Other types of beef farmers were, on average, to be seen making a profit (or more profit than suckler farmers IYKWIM)

So we will target the worst, of a bad lot first:D

towzer2010

It makes sense though. Get the raw material right first and then move on to the next stage.

But then since I'm a suckler farmer it suits me.:D

JohnBoy

nashmach wrote: »

So taking it to the extreme - an investor comes in and wants to buy your business and they will look at the future stream of gross margin. Not a hope.

Of course they will.

If you've no margin you can never get as far as having a net profit.

Net profit can be manipulated in different ways for different reasons. For example a business can show a high net profit by not investing in maintenance or updating equipment, leaving a big hole coming down the line.

Or in the opposite case where a business chooses to invest more heavily in itself rather than pay more taxes.



but the fundamental of any production or reselling business is to sell the stuff for more than it's costing you to buy.

nashmach

JohnBoy wrote: »

Of course they will.

If you've no margin you can never get as far as having a net profit.

Net profit can be manipulated in different ways for different reasons. For example a business can show a high net profit by not investing in maintenance or updating equipment, leaving a big hole coming down the line.

Or in the opposite case where a business chooses to invest more heavily in itself rather than pay more taxes.



but the fundamental of any production or reselling business is to sell the stuff for more than it's costing you to buy.

No, they won't they will look at the future stream of profits on an expected basis.

And then it will value as you have said there taking into account investment needs in the future or not.

Think I have gone too far with this - beginning to sound like I'm at the day job now

Sorry I bothered

stanflt

nashmach wrote: »

I really can't understand this fascination with Gross Margin.

Net Profit should be the key figure - you don't live off Gross Margin.

it should be net profit

sure we made 3732 per hectare gross profit last year- hardly reality in dairy if this was judged we would all be millionaiores

pakalasa

EBIT - Earnings before Interest & Tax is the figure that gets thrown around where I work.

Just for the record, what is exactly is included as cost in the Gross Profit, Fertiliser, Feed, Vetinary, .......What else?

stanflt

pakalasa wrote: »

EBIT - Earnings before Interest & Tax is the figure that gets thrown around where I work.

Just for the record, what is exactly is included as cost in the Gross Profit, Fertiliser, Feed, Vetinary, .......What else?

these are all actually a cost against Gross Profit

Sundry Var. Costs
Straw
Levies and Transport
Silage Additive & Polythene
Milk Recording & Parlour
Seed and Spray
Contractor
AI / Breeding
Veterinary
Lime
Fertiliser
Purchased Forage
Home Grown Concentrate
Purchased Concentrate

ie gross profit on the PROFIT MONITOR has these above figures already deducted

1chippy

Did any of you head up to derrypatrick today or was it all to Sligo?

Bizzum

Anyone on Facebook take a look at "Irish Farm'n Craic" .

Some funny pics! Some rubbish too but worth a gander.

whelan1

whats the story with the" eviction " guy in limerick, saw it on news last night but missed it on primetime - past my bedtime:cool:

leg wax

well anyone see my neighbours farm in the comic, are yee going to buy:D.

dar31

leg wax wrote: »

well anyone see my neighbours farm in the comic, are yee going to buy:D.

that a serious place, wouldn't mind retiring to it.
what the story with the dutch feeding system, never heard of it before

leg wax

dar31 wrote: »

that a serious place, wouldn't mind retiring to it.
what the story with the dutch feeding system, never heard of it before

silage is only put in to about 6 feet high to suit a block cutter that cuts a block from the top of the pit to the bottom in one go so the block is lets say 6 feet high and 4 feet in lenght and 2 feet wide, its stacked in front od a movable feed barrier that is moved by a button its electric.

vanderbadger

leg wax wrote: »

well anyone see my neighbours farm in the comic, are yee going to buy:D.

what age people are they, lets say they get the 2 mil or whatever , what will they do, move abroad? what would the place have been worth back in the tiger times i wonder :eek:

bob charles

whelan1 wrote: »

whats the story with the" eviction " guy in limerick, saw it on news last night but missed it on primetime - past my bedtime:cool:

its not only the banks that awaiting payment from that 'gentleman'. what goes around, comes around

whelan1

bob charles wrote: »

its not only the banks that awaiting payment from that 'gentleman'. what goes around, comes around

was thinking, theres always 2 sides to every story

Black Smoke

leg wax wrote: »

well anyone see my neighbours farm in the comic, are yee going to buy:D.

I pulled out all the mattresses last night to see how much I could put together.
Starting on the kid's piggy banks this evening.
Looks like I may be getting to know you:cool:

leg wax

vanderbadger wrote: »

what age people are they, lets say they get the 2 mil or whatever , what will they do, move abroad? what would the place have been worth back in the tiger times i wonder :eek:

55 i think

bbam

whelan1 wrote: »

whats the story with the" eviction " guy in limerick, saw it on news last night but missed it on primetime - past my bedtime:cool:

Saw it on primetime and I thought his position was decimated by that fella Burges from AskaboutMoney.com, his point (and I would agree in principal at least) was that evictions in Ireland are very uncommon, and the reflection from past cases is that it only happens after years and years of refusing to make repayment nor interact with the financial institution..
They didn't let the farmer back in but I was dying to hear his responce, he was red as abeetroot and I was afraid he was going to have a coronary there and then..

Another panel guest rightly pointed out that the only reason we're seeing little movement on eviction is that currently property is useless to the banks as its unsaleable... She surmised that when property rebounds a bit we will see more and more evictions.. I probably agree with her

cloudroost

Have to agree with bbam here.... This guy has been getting way way too much air time in my view. It isn't in any financial institutions interest to reposess and obviously a last resort for them. It's a pity we don't get to hear the other side of this story - If he was a bit more honest about the situation, I might have a bit more support for him. As it is, his constant pushing of the family home angle and how he is trying to work with the bank to resolve the situation is getting a bit tedious and doesn't ring through for me....

bbam

cloudroost wrote: »

Have to agree with bbam here.... This guy has been getting way way too much air time in my view. It isn't in any financial institutions interest to reposess and obviously a last resort for them. It's a pity we don't get to hear the other side of this story - If he was a bit more honest about the situation, I might have a bit more support for him. As it is, his constant pushing of the family home angle and how he is trying to work with the bank to resolve the situation is getting a bit tedious and doesn't ring through for me....

I don't really want to comment on this case but in general the individual can kinda say what they want...
The banks cannot comment on individual cases as the information is private and confidential... maybe sometimes people take advantage of this and "bend" the facts a little to further their case..

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

He stomach tubes every calf with colostrum after the calf drops from the cow - this has seen a much reduced mortality rate on the farm.

Hi Reilig

Did he say was this colostrum from the birthing cow herself, was it from a local dairy farmer or was it one of those manufactured 'colostrums'?

vincenzolorenzo

bbam wrote: »

maybe sometimes people take advantage of this and "bend" the facts a little to further their case..

i.e. Sean Quinn :rolleyes:

bob charles

Any bank will gladly accept payment if money is arrears and will be happy to work with a problems as long as the plan is attainable and both sides hold their promise.

Plenty of support from one particular political party have arrived to 'support this individual'. Im sorry if you borrowed money and refuse to pay you should be out on your ear, otherwise its unfair on us guys slaving to try and pay our way.

Timmaay

Bizzum wrote: »

Anyone on Facebook take a look at "Irish Farm'n Craic" .

Some funny pics! Some rubbish too but worth a gander.

Just spotted this video there, I don't know if its been posted here before, but anyways, its funny but WTF, no wonder the farmplace has the highest number of work related deaths/accidents when ya got crap like this going on! I'd hope the likes of them never set foot inside my gate!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl9pe2oqc2Y

pakalasa

Muckit wrote: »

Hi Reilig

Did he say was this colostrum from the birthing cow herself, was it from a local dairy farmer or was it one of those manufactured 'colostrums'?

I did that, this year with a few newborns who wouln't drink the cow at birth. They probably would have drank in time, but I wanted to go to bed. Tubing is a lot easier than wrestling with a stubborn calf. You can sleep well then, knowing the calf has got 2 Litres inside in him. I always take ths colostrum from the mother. I milk her by hand in the chute.

Black Smoke

pakalasa wrote: »

I did that, this year with a few newborns who wouln't drink the cow at birth. They probably would have drank in time, but I wanted to go to bed. Tubing is a lot easier than wrestling with a stubborn calf. You can sleep well then, knowing the calf has got 2 Litres inside in him. I always take ths colostrum from the mother. I milk her by hand in the chute.

I'm the other extreme. I just never, ever, ever interfere with a newborn calf.
They will suck if left alone in my experience.
I would always hang around end ensure a springer was letting the calf suck. If not I give a bit of a hand.
Apart from that, I let nature do it's stuff, and feck off to bed out of the way:o
Of course if I had a very weak calf patently unable to do it's thing, I would also get involved, but thankfully have'nt had that situation in my memory. Touch wood!

Muckit

pakalasa wrote: »

I did that, this year with a few newborns who wouln't drink the cow at birth. They probably would have drank in time, but I wanted to go to bed. Tubing is a lot easier than wrestling with a stubborn calf. You can sleep well then, knowing the calf has got 2 Litres inside in him. I always take ths colostrum from the mother. I milk her by hand in the chute.

Fair play Pak... this guy has 90 cows though... just wondering was he claiming to have milked and stomach tubed all his calves?? Reading in the Journal that he has lands rented 40km in one direction and something like 15km other way. So he sounds like big enough a nut to do it.

Dont be daft

Muckit wrote: »

Fair play Pak... this guy has 90 cows though... just wondering was he claiming to have milked and stomach tubed all his calves?? Reading in the Journal that he has lands rented 40km in one direction and something like 15km other way. So he sounds like big enough a nut to do it.

If you saw what were at you'd think we were pure bonkers so:D

15km would be on our doorstep!

Bizzum

reilig wrote: »

He said that he calved down at 24 months and he has great success with this practice.

Any idea ? Continental bull or what? Or is it AA the first time round?

Kovu

The export trade is in full flow lads. I'd let go when ye can. Anything 4-500 kgs making 1350/1450.