SONY - Go on do it I DARE you - Geohot

Liamario

EnterNow, is there any chance you can behave like a moderator, instead of talking to me with the condescending tone you're using.
I said I wasn't going to quote everyone's point, that's not to say you don't have to. If we were all to star quoting each other, we'd get two posts per page.

Yes I view it from my perspective, I'm me, and I'm on the side that belives you own your hardware - in this case the PS3. I'm on the side that believes in buying & owning something your free to do whatever you wish to.

Did I say you weren't allowed your opinion?! The point i'm making, is that maybe you should take a look at all the arguements rather than how it just affects you.

Oh, and lay off the expletives will you

Yes I will. Lay off on the talking down to me will you. Just because you're a moderator, it doesn't make you some sort of superior being. In the same way that just because you cna hack your console, it doesn't mean you should.

Myrddin

Liamario wrote: »

EnterNow, is there any chance you can behave like a moderator, instead of talking to me with the condescending tone you're using.
I said I wasn't going to quote everyone's point, that's not to say you don't have to. If we were all to star quoting each other, we'd get two posts per page.



Did I say you weren't allowed your opinion?! The point i'm making, is that maybe you should take a look at all the arguements rather than how it just affects you.


Yes I will. Lay off on the talking down to me will you. Just because you're a moderator, it doesn't make you some sort of superior being. In the same way that just because you cna hack your console, it doesn't mean you should.

I think your taking me up wrong here, if I was a power happy condescending type mod I wouldn't be interested in having this discussion, & encouraging you/us to address all of each others points. I'd be stepping in with bold text on everything I didn't want to hear. It's a discussion forum, & as long as the rules and charter are being adhered to then we can discuss any points we wish to.

If you feel your being treated any differently that others, or being talked down to etc, there's a transparent procedure you should follow. It begins with contacting me via pm and discussing your concerns, if your still not happy, feel free to contact one of the cMods & make your thoughts known.

I stand by everything I said, & I know myself I believe in those points which is why I made them & wish to discuss them

Now, if your talking about viewing things form all sides (which I'm a big advocate of believe it or not), how about this theoretical scenario - I buy Gran Turismo 5 ok. My PS3 is on Firmware 3.41, meaning I have to submit to mandatory updates to play the game (even though I've bought and paid for the game, and the console to play it on). But in doing so, it will make my 3rd party joypad/stick/wheel not function anymore and I'll have to go out and pay for a Sony one. Do I;

1) Update the console, loose all my emulators etc & loose the ability to use my 3rd party controller which will cost me yet more money?

or

2) Install CFW & play the game on my current firmware, and loosing nothing.

Now whether people choose option 1 or 2, don't discount the fact that neither of these options involve the user being a thieving pirate.

TouchingVirus

You're right, people will use this for piracy. People will use knives to stab people and guns to shoot people. People will use cars in bank heists as a byproduct of getting from A to B and will use Stethoscopes to crack old-skool safes. On a more software based level people will use software designed to find free Wifi connections to listen to existing connections and steal facebook accounts and other personal details.

This isn't what these things were originally designed and released for, but nefarious uses are a byproduct. C'est la vie - it's human nature. No amount of "Only use this for the good reasons I'm releasing it" will stop people seeing what else it can be used for. This is not good enough justification to villianise the people who are doing the research. And the reaction from Sony is just cause to actually try and protect these researchers.

The original reasons why consoles are being hacked, from the hackers themselves, is linux in almost all cases. Look at the 27c3 slide in the fail0verflow presentation. That piracy has come as a side effect is just that, a side effect. If console manufacturers spent more time giving people what they want and actually embraced the fact that people will look to do alternative things with their platform and spent time trying to separate the security for that from the security required to prevent piracy then it would be money well spent - the PS3 would not have been cracked by the fail0verflow team. If Sony didn't remove OtherOS Geohot wouldn't have gotten involved. For 4 years the system was secure, and undoubtedly people were looking at it from day 1 with Piracy in mind.

Of course serial codes/activation is a valid solution. It is as much a punishment as somebody having to drive to the store to buy the game, open the plastic wrapping and place the CD in the tray. The thing about the PC is it allows people to run their own peek/poke or activation emulators to get around this stuff. The PS3 doesn't have any of that hacker-friendliness at the minute, and I suspect it'd be a while before it arrives. In the meantime, happy piracy-free days

The 360 has suffered more than the PS3, piracy has been rife on it for years. No, it doesn't make it right that piracy is around, but it's here and going nowhere. I don't get your point on this at all - you seem to be bleating the Piracy is Bad line that we already know...

There is as much possibility that new features will be stopped as there ever was. Sony won't punish people for this - the people responsible for security are entirely different from the people responsible for the PSN experience/XMB experience. Updates happen, you update and that's that. They happened before Geohot and will have happened had he not released the metldr keys.

Supporting Geohot is supporting piracy? Don't make me laugh - the two are mutually exclusive. Of course he knew what he released would enable piracy, but that isn't his fault. Once again, it was a byproduct of the way the security (and all security for consoles) has been designed to date. Had the security been different he has indicated he would have done enough to re-enable OtherOS or an improved OtherOS with full GPU access and not to go down the road of Backup Managers. His own firmware does not allow Backup Managers to run. Once again you're demonstrating very little knowledge of the whole situation.

On the subject of backups - there should be no need for backups to exist or for manufacturers to accomodate backups. There should be processes in place to minimise the requirement of a backup. I'm sure that even you have managed to break something by accident or mistreated your "****ing ****" at some point or another. Look at the 360 which will wreck a disc if you accidentally rock it when it's on with a disc spinning (kicking it by accident walking by, pulling the charge cord and it falling over etc). I know a lot of folks who'd download a copy of a game that fell foul of these situations rather than fork out another 60 blips. A scratched-disc exchange with a fee to cover the disc pressing would solve that problem. You don't need to give the developers more money for another license IMO, you've paid them your dues. Loading games to a hard drive - reduced laser wear for the console, reduced burn-in on your CD. Games locked to the console they're installed on, no disc no play. Win-win for user (major loading time improvement) and manufacturer (happy consumer, no piracy and no need to RMA the console for a wrecked laser). There's the only legit reason for a backup (to protect your original CD) gone out the window, why else would you want a backup now other than piracy?

I can't help but get the feeling that because you're being inconvenienced (and I can't really see how either, but you say you are), you're against all form of embedded systems or security research. This case will set a precedent for console research and it's very important that the end result doesn't stymy that research in these fields. It goes beyond piracy which is all you seem to be concerned about - that you pay for your games and others don't.

Look at the wider problems here, take off your piracy blinkers.

Liamario

If that scenario is indeed accurate, then of course, you could be justified in going to a CFW. At the same time, unless it's an offically licensed product, you don't have a leg to stand on.

It really is no different than a toaster that works via usb on the ps3, but Sony's firmware stopped it from working anymore. It's not a supported product.

I'm not saying that Sony are right on everything. My only issues with hacking is how it affects online play and people pirating software.

If stopping piracy means no CFW, then I'll take no CFW. Unfortunately, these things now appear to go hand in hand.

I'll admit I don't know the intricacies of what GeoHot did in terms of enabling backups. But, I'm confident that at least some of his research and work was a building block towards backups.
My anger isn't aimed only at him, but at the rest of the hackers.

Just one more comment. Some people are not too bothered about any new DRM sony might bring in. That's fine for you, but it's not fine for me. If your game disc is locked to your machine, how is someone going to bring their game over to someone elses console? It's not as clear cut as people are making it out. There are always repurcussions.

Myrddin

Liamario wrote: »

If that scenario is indeed accurate, then of course, you could be justified in going to a CFW. At the same time, unless it's an offically licensed product, you don't have a leg to stand on.

It really is no different than a toaster that works via usb on the ps3, but Sony's firmware stopped it from working anymore. It's not a supported product.

I'm not saying that Sony are right on everything. My only issues with hacking is how it affects online play and people pirating software.

If stopping piracy means no CFW, then I'll take no CFW. Unfortunately, these things now appear to go hand in hand.

I'll admit I don't know the intricacies of what GeoHot did in terms of enabling backups. But, I'm confident that at least some of his research and work was a building block towards backups.
My anger isn't aimed only at him, but at the rest of the hackers.

Just one more comment. Some people are not too bothered about any new DRM sony might bring in. That's fine for you, but it's not fine for me. If your game disc is locked to your machine, how is someone going to bring their game over to someone elses console? It's not as clear cut as people are making it out. There are always repurcussions.

I'm in complete agreement with you with regards PSN. I don't believe it's fair to use modded consoles in a market with standard consoles. I've said it a few times that the people who are getting free games, & then using the free PSN service are taking too big a bite of the cherry completely. The user should have to make a conscious decision, homebrew or online use. Having both I feel is just wreckless, & brings all the media hyped stuff to attention.

People who hack MW2 to cheat are in no way on the same level as homebrew developers. As TV said, it's n unfortunate byproduct which there's no getting away from.

The controller scenario was just an example. What about OtherOS, what of the people who actually did use it? Newer games & PSN meant that had to say goodbye to a feature that was a selling point of the console? In your own words, there are two sides. But your not making the distiction between childish people who cheat at online games, & those who are giving us Sony have failed to give us for the last four years.

You don't have to know the fine details of the GeoHot story, the technicalities of it are beyond myself too. Your right in that his work has probably lent a hand to where we are today with cfw etc. But again, the piracy is only a byproduct of the work. GeoHot would have had other motives for sure, but not being able to afford to buy games would not have been one of them. The forced firmware programme, & removal of OtherOS (slim) would have been a catalyst I'm sure.

I'm not bothered about the new DRM procedures, because I see it for what it really is. Just answer me this, why are those same procedures not present on the Xbox 360? Short of 1st party titles, the game lineup is exactly the same.

Myrddin

Also that unlicensed controller thing, I see that for what it really is too. Why is it they were ever allowed to work if not supported? Strange how they decided to remove support for them, just around the time when people were looking at all kinds of usb devices to exploit the PS3. Again, clever stuff by Sony from a social warfare pov.

lee_baby_simms

I always groan when people trot out 'freedom of speech' when it suits their cause.

The same people probably don't rush to defend Nick Griffins right to freedom of speech when he spreads racial hatred.

I agree 100% with Liamario points. I find the worship of geohot cos 'hes stickin it to the man' and the vilification of Sony for trying to protect their own IP within the realms of the law equally sickening...but this is a console modding forum I guess. People are entitled to do whatever they want at whatever cost to developers and fellow users on official firmware right? Ok I got it.

Its way too early to say how piracy will effect the ps3 but I can't see how it will help ensure the integrity of of titles in the future and more importantly support jobs of people in the videogame industry.

Myrddin

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

I always groan when people trot out 'freedom of speech' when it suits their cause.

The same people probably don't rush to defend Nick Griffins right to freedom of speech when he spreads racial hatred.

I agree 100% with Liamario points. I find the worship of geohot cos 'hes stickin it to the man' and the vilification of Sony for trying to protect their own IP within the realms of the law equally sickening...but this is a console modding forum I guess. People are entitled to do whatever they want at whatever cost to developers and fellow users on official firmware right? Ok I got it.

Its way too early to say how piracy will effect the ps3 but I can't see how it will help ensure the integrity of of titles in the future and more importantly support jobs of people in the videogame industry.

I wonder will the judge view the case against Sony for allegedly stealing patented LG technology for use in their PS3 blu ray drives with equal distain. I would hope not for Sony's sake.

Who's worshipping GeoHot here? He was able to obtain a certain key, with tools he wrote himself, which ran legitimately on 3.15 OtherOS..he then made said code public (which is the real problem for him, as it fell under the Digital Millenium Act). While that's not the issue for me, it's stuff like a simple youtube video, showing 3.55 Custom Firmware runnning, with all the LV2 security still in place that has brought the 'freedom of speech' thing for me. What is the issue with people watching or commenting on said video?

Racial hatred is an incitment to violence, possible human suffering. Why would anybody support that? That's racial hatred under the false guide of freedom of speech.

As has been said many times already & gone unanswered everytime, the Xbox360 is rife with piracy, but in Decemeber last year seen its best month. While piracy is wrong, & not the issue here, I feel obliged to ask why the Xbox 360 os doing so well despite this?

Myrddin

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

but this is a console modding forum I guess. People are entitled to do whatever they want at whatever cost to developers and fellow users on official firmware right? Ok I got it

Limario, if your looking for a condescending attitude, thats it right there. Lee_baby_simms, piracy isn't condoned nor permitted here...what's your point?

lee_baby_simms

EnterNow wrote: »

While piracy is wrong, & not the issue here, I feel obliged to ask why the Xbox 360 os doing so well despite this?

Piracy is not the issue for you, sure. But its there. I know YOU don't like it but a lot of people do and will avail of it. For you to have your cake and eat it without acknowledging fully the collateral damage caused by cfw and for you to insinuate that piracy doesn't seriously affect software sales just goes to prove how skewered this debate is.

As has been said many times already & gone unanswered everytime, the Xbox360 is rife with piracy, but in Decemeber last year seen its best month.

It seems quite obvious to me. How do you know piracy is rife on the 360?

It's my understanding that to pirate games on the xbox you have to invalidate the warranty(not ideal given the reliability issues its known for), open it up and physically mod it (theres a cost and potential risk there)and also expose yourself to an almost certain permanent ban from xbox live.

Quite different to the free, software based and 100% reversible hack on the ps3. Why don't you go onto torrent sites and look at the amount of copies of Killzone 3 that are currently being downloaded.

But anyway, I digress. I think this debate is fruitless as we clearly disagree on a very fundamental level here and I don't wanna get banned! :P

lee_baby_simms

EnterNow wrote: »

Lee_baby_simms, piracy isn't condoned nor permitted here...what's your point?

Its obviously not recognised at all.

Myrddin

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

Its obviously not recognised at all.

Enlighten me then.

You won't get banned for disagreeing with me lol, I'm open minded & enjoy the debate. I'm not set on one opinion & I will listen to everyone with an open mind. I just havn't heard anything so far that changes my beliefs.

Edit - for somoeone so seemingly staunchly opposed to 'hacked' consoles, you have some interesting posts in this forum I've just noticed. Here's one for example, and another wondering if we can remove region locking from blu-rays? Now I can respect Limario because of his opinion on the subject, but your here slating everyone for worshipping GeoHot & then looking for advice of the best homebrew 'magic'?? Which is it, because the way I see it your just trolling at this point.

lee_baby_simms

Well I think the original point was that there is a pervasive

Sony = evil, geohot = good

...sentiment on this forum like this was some sort of simple modern day David v Goliath.

Personally I think Sony have every right to pursue individuals who they believe are threatening their IP as long as they stay within the law and, for the record, I have no loyalty to Sony. They have a platform they're trying to protect, shareholders to satisfy, publishers to reassure.

I also have no problem with modding per se, I personally can't for mkv playback, but I just feel that its a little bit irresponsible to champion the homebrew scene whilst not condoning piracy yet also claim that piracy isn't an issue and insinuate that Sony somehow deserve it...all the time not taking into account the widereaching effect piracy has on not just Sony but developers, publishers and legitimate users.

CiaranC

Your points would make more sense if Sony hadnt proved over and over again that they are in fact "evil". Try doing some reading.

And this piracy scaremongering is nonsense. Piracy has been rife on xbox for years and it has outsold the PS3 on units and on games. At least come up with a reasonable argument instead of parroting Sonys PR department.

Some of us like to hack OUR hardware to use it to its full potential. If you dont agree, then just dont do it, it doesnt affect you in any way.

Ive been listening to whiners whining about piracy killing video games since I got a Commodore 64. The death of the industry was imminent any second. Video games are now bigger than movies. Go figure.

Myrddin

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

Well I think the original point was that there is a pervasive

Sony = evil, geohot = good

...sentiment on this forum like this was some sort of simple modern day David v Goliath.

Personally I think Sony have every right to pursue individuals who they believe are threatening their IP as long as they stay within the law and, for the record, I have no loyalty to Sony. They have a platform they're trying to protect, shareholders to satisfy, publishers to reassure.

I also have no problem with modding per se, I personally can't for mkv playback, but I just feel that its a little bit irresponsible to champion the homebrew scene whilst not condoning piracy yet also claim that piracy isn't an issue and insinuate that Sony somehow deserve it...all the time not taking into account the widereaching effect piracy has on not just Sony but developers, publishers and legitimate users.

It's nothing like that. In my case, you might feel I'm anti-Sony. I'm not at all, I've two PSP's, a Playstation 1, a PSone, a Playstation 2 & a Playstation 3. I've no gripe with Sony at all, and if it were Microsoft in this case my feelings would be the exact same.

It's not a David v Goliath case either for me, Sony consoles up until very recently were the epitome of game consoles to me. The PS1 & PS2 were stunning units of their time, with features & pro's that raised the bar. What turned my opinion on it's head, was a few things. Things like when I found out what information the PS3 is collecting about you, and sending that info to Sony every time you turn it on, regardless of if you have a PSN account or not. That to me is a complete invasion of privacy, fair enough console specific data that's one thing, but all the info about all the other devices on your home network? I'm sorry but that's a big no-no for me.

Other things like forced software updates have turned my opinion of them. If I buy a console, and buy a game, I should have the right to use the console what I purchased it for without worrying about what features are being added (or removed really).

This whole Google/Youtube debacle is another down turn against them for me. What right in the world, do they have, to order Google/Youtube to hand over ip addresses of anyone who watched the video? Like if my granny was in the room when I played the video, does that make her an accessory to piracy? It's insane what dollars can get you these days.

I give them many thumbs up, such as free PSN. It's a fantastic thing to offer folks who like online gaming. They also won the hd media war with Blu-Ray, putting an end to should I buy hd-dvd or blu-ray, which was raging for far longer than it should of. For the most part, they make excellent products (solder aside) and I would consider them a maker of high quality products in general with tv's etc.

But some of the methods that have come to light, namely the home network thing & youtube...just make me question why this doesn't bother those who use such things? Google got into trouble for such practices in the UK very recently, it's a complete invasion. Therefore while it may be percieved that I support GeoHot, I actually know very little about him. But my support for him comes form the sense that Sony themselves are at fault here too, most people just either don't know that or want to hear it. It's not an Anti-Sony thing, it's about when two people have done the wrong thing, why should the one with the most dollars be percieved as the innocent victim here.

lee_baby_simms

Again its a bit more complex. Just because Call of Duty breaks records doesn't mean that the industry is thriving. Jobs in the games industry are being cut everyday.

And also going back to piracy being rife on the xbox 360 - I think the point is that the PS3 exploit is far easier and more attractive than the xbox 360 dvd flashing.

As I said before - its early days.

lee_baby_simms

EnterNow wrote: »

Other things like forced software updates have turned my opinion of them. If I buy a console, and buy a game, I should have the right to use the console what I purchased it for without worrying about what features are being added (or removed really).

Well you can if you don't connect online. Otherwise you have to agree to terms and conditions before a software update.

Myrddin

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

Well you can if you don't connect online. Otherwise you have to agree to terms and conditions before a software update.

Nothing to do with online, GT5 just won't run on 3.41 (officially anyway). This is the kind of thing that forces people into looking at other solutions. What's wrong with;

"To play Gran Turismo 5 with PSN, you must first accept the update. Failure to do so will result in single player operation only."

This way, people who arn't interested in PSN can play the game, & those that want to use PSN update the console & get to play online with all the security still in place.

lee_baby_simms

EnterNow wrote: »

Nothing to do with online, GT5 just won't run on 3.41 (officially anyway). This is the kind of thing that forces people into looking at other solutions. What's wrong with;

"To play Gran Turismo 5 with PSN, you must first accept the update. Failure to do so will result in single player operation only."

This way, people who arn't interested in PSN can play the game, & those that want to use PSN update the console & get to play online with all the security still in place.

Ok I accept that.

Myrddin

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

Ok I accept that.

That's all I ask, at the very least your debating with an open mind, fair play. I've seen users where it would kill them to accept the point of someone they were debating with & they'd just not reply.

lee_baby_simms

Ah not at all. We're talking about consumer electronics at the end of the day. Taking things personally never helps debate.

Varik

Varik wrote: »

Is there a higher res version of this uploaded anywhere?

I want to see if that is the key he was showing.

EnterNow wrote: »

That's my point, there only has to be one digit in it different, or blurred, & it's no longer the key. That's why I think posting it while the photo is unverified as showing it isn't necessarily wise.

That was why i wanted to know if a higher res video was around, i'm going on the number or rows and columns and a few frames that i can make out some text. I can't see if it was exactly right to be MetLdr key.

The TRO forbids him from distributing the jailbreak(?), helping or encouraging others to jailbreak, and distributing information they've learned during the creation of the jailbreak.

While this was a civil case they was no chance of criminal charges but contempt of court can be ruled as a criminal charge, but in most civil cases it is not. This may not be distributing but it could be seen as encouraging with what could possible be the MetLdr key.

If anyone has ever been to court for anything or been in a court room they know they should be polite and do what they're told, lawyers can argue and object but you sit just there until advised to do otherwise.

EnterNow wrote: »

It's nothing like that. In my case, you might feel I'm anti-Sony. I'm not at all, I've two PSP's, a Playstation 1, a PSone, a Playstation 2 & a Playstation 3. I've no gripe with Sony at all, and if it were Microsoft in this case my feelings would be the exact same.

It's not a David v Goliath case either for me, Sony consoles up until very recently were the epitome of game consoles to me. The PS1 & PS2 were stunning units of their time, with features & pro's that raised the bar.

150m PS2 sold now, not really connected i just don't want to make a thread about it.

EnterNow wrote: »

What turned my opinion on it's head, was a few things. Things like when I found out what information the PS3 is collecting about you, and sending that info to Sony every time you turn it on, regardless of if you have a PSN account or not. That to me is a complete invasion of privacy, fair enough console specific data that's one thing, but all the info about all the other devices on your home network? I'm sorry but that's a big no-no for me.

Other things like forced software updates have turned my opinion of them. If I buy a console, and buy a game, I should have the right to use the console what I purchased it for without worrying about what features are being added (or removed really).

This whole Google/Youtube debacle is another down turn against them for me. What right in the world, do they have, to order Google/Youtube to hand over ip addresses of anyone who watched the video? Like if my granny was in the room when I played the video, does that make her an accessory to piracy? It's insane what dollars can get you these days.

No one has right naturally, the discussion on the difference between privileges and right is only made after some laws people have agreed on give them rights. The information Google has is not private and unless there were some promises made to keep it secure they could have given it to Sony of their own will, the demand was to have the court take away Googles say in the matter.

Look at the people whose ip they wanted, those that simply watched it would have probably only been used to try and show damage caused. Profits lost to piracy and damages it cusses are always argued over ever time a developer or publisher makes a statement so any number Sony quotes need to have from accurate numbers behind it.

Corporations are recognised are individuals that can seek profit without personal liability of those that run them, that isn't obviously always going to turn out good.

EnterNow wrote: »

It's not an Anti-Sony thing, it's about when two people have done the wrong thing, why should the one with the most dollars be percieved as the innocent victim here.

You're lucky 2chan don't come after you, they were stalking, harassing and trying to kill the optician that said the 3ds may be bad for a kids eyes.

EnterNow wrote: »

Nothing to do with online, GT5 just won't run on 3.41 (officially anyway). This is the kind of thing that forces people into looking at other solutions. What's wrong with;

"To play Gran Turismo 5 with PSN, you must first accept the update. Failure to do so will result in single player operation only."

This way, people who arn't interested in PSN can play the game, & those that want to use PSN update the console & get to play online with all the security still in place.

Sony want to make sure that as many as possible of offline player are not pirating the game, they also don't want to encourage cfw/homebrew which they may be doing in an attempt to stop it.

TouchingVirus

Unlike EnterNow I do see this as an important, almost David vs. Goliath, court case. And I'm firmly in the corner of good old David. Not because it's Geohot, if it was the guys from Fail0verflow, graf or even Waninkoko in the dock I'd still be on their side.

Not because of 'sticking it to the man' but because I firmly believe they should be allowed to do as they please with their own hardware. I also believe that hardware should not lose features that you bought it with, whatever about adding new ones.

Sony should not have locked out 3rd party controllers except on new off-the-shelf consoles. If it never worked you can't complain. Sony shouldn't force OS updates on gamers where it becomes a decision between playing a game (something that was implicit in purchasing a games console) or having OtherOS (another advertised feature). It's different if a new FW is required to play a game that makes heavy use of the new features added by that FW but that's not the case here - most people don't want to upgrade because they'll lose OtherOS or 3rd party controller compatibility.

It is amazing what a few dollars can get you as EnterNow said, and amazing that nobody has filed a class-action against Sony for the removal of OtherOS like was strongly considered when Microsoft made the decision to cripple hard drive functionality on banned consoles in November 2009 - a decision they have since reversed, and I can well believe it was on legal advice.

Furthermore, the court decision has serious ramifications for what is publishable in embedded systems research. I think if the court were to find against Geohot it would be a major step backwards for the protection of people who do this kind of research. Piracy was a byproduct of the research, not the end game. That the key was released shouldn't construe an implicit or explicit desire to encourage piracy. Going from the key release to full on backup manager wasn't a one-step process, there was much more research required to get it that far, Geohot can't and shouldn't be responsible for what other people did with the key IMO, to re-use my analogy from earlier it's like holding Ford accountable for making a car that was used in a bank heist...

Security research needs to happen. Researchers need to be protected, to be able to publish without fear of reprisal. I'm all for informing companies about fixable holes before leaking them, but I'm not in favour of covering up gaping holes that can't be fixed because some people might have some ideas for how to use this research for nefarious purposes. Especially when the purpose of the research was to put back something that shouldn't have been taken away in the first place.

Myrddin

Varik wrote: »

That was why i wanted to know if a higher res video was around, i'm going on the number or rows and columns and a few frames that i can make out some text. I can't see if it was exactly right to be MetLdr key.

Yet you posted the metldr key, something Sony want erradicated from the internet & from public knowledge. You bold boy you Varik

Varik wrote:

The TRO forbids him from distributing the jailbreak(?), helping or encouraging others to jailbreak, and distributing information they've learned during the creation of the jailbreak.

Define 'Jailbreak', the MetLDR key isn't the jailbreak.

Varik wrote:

While this was a civil case they was no chance of criminal charges but contempt of court can be ruled as a criminal charge, but in most civil cases it is not. This may not be distributing but it could be seen as encouraging with what could possible be the MetLdr key.

Are you saying he could be held in contempt over this rap video? How is it even evidence that could be called on?

Varik wrote:

If anyone has ever been to court for anything or been in a court room they know they should be polite and do what they're told, lawyers can argue and object but you sit just there until advised to do otherwise.

How is that relevant here? If your referring to the rap video, how is it bad for his case?

Varik wrote:

150m PS2 sold now, not really connected i just don't want to make a thread about it.

You raised that point just to tell us how many PS2's have been sold?

Varik wrote:

No one has right naturally, the discussion on the difference between privileges and right is only made after some laws people have agreed on give them rights. The information Google has is not private and unless there were some promises made to keep it secure they could have given it to Sony of their own will, the demand was to have the court take away Googles say in the matter.

Nobody has natural rights? Lol, if you say so Varik The court was used because if any other way was used, Sony would be being sued themselves by everyone who's identity they then possesed. What business is it of Sony who watched a youtube video, that had no DCMA flagrance in it? No natural rights.

Varik wrote:

Look at the people whose ip they wanted, those that simply watched it would have probably only been used to try and show damage caused. Profits lost to piracy and damages it cusses are always argued over ever time a developer or publisher makes a statement so any number Sony quotes need to have from accurate numbers behind it.

So everyone who watched the video then went forth and pirated a game? Seriously Varik, where are these notions coming from? It would give no accurate representation whatsoever, as to how many games were pirated based on how many people watched the video. Again, that information is nothing to do with Sony...what right do they have to it?

Varik wrote:

Corporations are recognised are individuals that can seek profit without personal liability of those that run them, that isn't obviously always going to turn out good.

As in the 'Ltd' tag? Yes it's the corporation against the man, not man against man in this case. What are you getting at?

Varik wrote:

You're lucky 2chan don't come after you, they were stalking, harassing and trying to kill the optician that said the 3ds may be bad for a kids eyes.

I don't know who or what 2chan is, I don't care to either.

Varik wrote:

Sony want to make sure that as many as possible of offline player are not pirating the game, they also don't want to encourage cfw/homebrew which they may be doing in an attempt to stop it.

Earlier on you posted Sony don't care about CFW or Homebrew...so which is it?

Varik

EnterNow wrote: »

Yet you posted the metldr key, something Sony want erradicated from the internet & from public knowledge. You bold boy you Varik

I'll edit the post when this all end up on the good side of the Atlantic.

EnterNow wrote: »

Define 'Jailbreak', the MetLDR key isn't the jailbreak.

Had a (?) to the jailbreak as i know it isn't but as far a the tro is concerned they're the same.

EnterNow wrote: »

Are you saying he could be held in contempt over this rap video? How is it even evidence that could be called on?

The TRO says encouraging and distributing, all but that PS3 with the possible MetLDR key on it would have been fine.

EnterNow wrote: »

How is that relevant here? If your referring to the rap video, how is it bad for his case?

Again the TRO and the possibly shown keys.

EnterNow wrote: »

You raised that point just to tell us how many PS2's have been sold?

You said you liked the PS2 and i had something to say.

EnterNow wrote: »

Nobody has natural rights? Lol, if you say so Varik The court was used because if any other way was used, Sony would be being sued themselves by everyone who's identity they then possesed. What business is it of Sony who watched a youtube video, that had no DCMA flagrance in it? No natural rights.

So everyone who watched the video then went forth and pirated a game? Seriously Varik, where are these notions coming from? It would give no accurate representation whatsoever, as to how many games were pirated based on how many people watched the video. Again, that information is nothing to do with Sony...what right do they have to it?

The rights a person has are only given to them by a law, Sony didn't have any legal right to it and the judge decided as much but they can try for it as much as they like and if it had bearing on the case it would have been given.

Downloads don't mean lost sales as anyone know they just need as many sources showing how much interest and action has been taken in it, they're trying to show that the largest possible damages have been caused.

EnterNow wrote: »

As in the 'Ltd' tag? Yes it's the corporation against the man, not man against man in this case. What are you getting at?

Your saying what right does Sony have to any of this information but when the stakeholder don't have any liability over Sony actions why wouldn't they do everything they can to get what they want.

EnterNow wrote: »

I don't know who or what 2chan is, I don't care to either.

You're better off.

EnterNow wrote: »

Earlier on you posted Sony don't care about CFW or Homebrew...so which is it?

Don't care to help or sell to and don't want to encourage.

Myrddin

Varik wrote: »

I'll edit the post when this all end up on the good side of the Atlantic.



Had a (?) to the jailbreak as i know it isn't but as far a the tro is concerned they're the same.



The TRO says encouraging and distributing, all but that PS3 with the possible MetLDR key on it would have been fine.

Again the TRO and the possibly shown keys.




You said you liked the PS2 and i had something to say.





The rights a person has are only given to them by a law, Sony didn't have any legal right to it and the judge decided as much but they can try for it as much as they like and if it had bearing on the case it would have been given.

Downloads don't mean lost sales as anyone know they just need as many sources showing how much interest and action has been taken in it, they're trying to show that the largest possible damages have been caused.





Your saying what right does Sony have to any of this information but when the stakeholder don't have any liability over Sony actions why wouldn't they do everything they can to get what they want.




You're better off.



Don't care to help or sell to and don't want to encourage.

Good points.

Myrddin

Christ Varik, must you be so argumentative - I went to google 'psxscene' to see if there were any recent developments today, and googled 'Varik' instead. Apparently your a small Dutch village

I need to get away from boards for a bit :pac:

Myrddin

After consulting with the CMods, we feel directly posting the Metldr key on a public forum is neither wise, nor permissable. I've therefore edited your post & removed the said image Varik.

Let it be known, any further postings of encryption/decryption/signing/public or private keys will result in user bannings.

I'll add this to the charter now too.

Kinetic^

EnterNow wrote: »

After consulting with the CMods

I remember when cmods were cool, sad days indeed.

CiaranC

Lame. Im off to a real console modding forum