The Irish language thread

Pigwidgeon

I think Irish should be compulsory. I was never a big fan of it but I still think it's important to teach the country's national language throughout school.

Although I think how it is taught should be completely revamped. Although, I don't think it's necessary for there to be exams in it and it should be mainly oral work. I think if it was taught like religion is in a lot of schools would be much better. Make the classes fun, and get people interested in actually speaking it.

deise go deo

Irish should remain as a core subject for the LC, Enda Kenn suggests that making Irish optional will promote the language, this simply is not true.

International precedent shows this, Languages were made optional for the GCSE's in England by a Labour government making similar claims to Mr Kenny, they were shown to be wrong, Language learning there fell from 78% in 2001 to 44% in 2010, and this disastrous drop would have been worse still had it not been for private schools maintaining languages as a mandatory aspect of their own curriculum.

In our own History we can see the results of a policy like the one Mr Kenny is proposing for Irish in our Education system.

When the necessity to have Irish to get a job in the civil service was removed as an entry requirement in 1974, the number of staff in a position to provide services in Irish fell drastically throughout the entire civil service. For example, a mere 1.5% of staff in the Department of Education and Skills are now competent enough to provide services through Irish today. This fact contradicts the theory that the use of Irish in the civil service would flourish if an end was put to the compulsion to have the language,

When implementing their proposal, a minister in that government, Richie Ryan said:

"The government is fully confident that this policy change, which promotes encouragement instead of compulsion, will result in increased goodwill towards the Irish language and will help to widen language use inside and outside the Civil Service."

Some years later, another Minister of the same Government, Conor Cruise Ó'Brien admitted that this policy had failed utterly, saying:


"...I would say that without a doubt Irish was reduced in status. Therefore, in retrospect, I do not believe we did the right thing. And I am very sorry about it."


Interesting that it was a Fine Gael government that proposed the policy in 1974 that had such a damaging result, and that it is them who have seemingly not learned the lesson of past failures and are once again proposing to remove compulsion on the often disproved premise that doing so will promote the language.

I believe that this time will be no different, I believe that the same will happen here as happened in England and the same will happen as happened here when Irish was dropped as a requirement for a job in the civil service.

That is that serious damage will be done to the future of the Irish language should Mr Kenny go ahead with his unproven and often contradicted policy of making Irish optional in order to promote it.

I wounder who it will be, some years from now, that will be forced to admit the failure of this policy, should it be allowed to go ahead, one thing is certain however, The apology will be As Bearla.



Irish in schools is in Desprate need of Reform, The curriculum is clearly not working, Reform of the curriculum is what is needed, Making Irish optional will do more harm than good.

Namlub

But realistically, do more than 1.5% of DoE employees need to be able to provide services through Irish anymore? Not referring to you, but I find it strange that a lot of pro-Irish people are bursting to give figures to prove that the language is going from strength to strength, but at the same time think that it would disappear if schoolgoers could exercise their free will when it comes to taking the subject....

Jackobyte

Davidius wrote: »

I don't think any subject should have bonus points simply because in doing so you're granting an unfair advantage to people who are naturally more able for it. Somebody losing their college place because somebody else performed better in an irrelevant subject is ridiculous.

Not even HL maths, which involves twice as much work as some other subjects, and still gets rewarded the same as Ag. Science, Construction Studies, etc?

crayolastereo wrote: »

I think they should do Irish like all the other languages, starting in first year. I think the current system of people being given the basis in a language by people who only (I know its a good mark, but you need perfect Irish) got a HC3 and then expecting them to go write poetry essays is insane. All your foundations are going to be on flawed sentence structure and grammar.

Yes!^^

The level of Irish that is expected for the JC, not to mind the LC, is way too high. I am meant to be able to decipher two poems and get the theme from them on the day(while on an extremely tight time limit e.g., 15-20 minutes), not to mind writing about unseen and studied pros? Yes, I have been studying it since Juniors but in a very uneven and broken manner. I can use verbs in each tense and I have reasonable vocab, but grammar and syntax are a different story.

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

(apart from when in foreign countries and wanting to bitch about people :pac:).

The only real use for Irish. :P

jumpguy wrote: »

Irish simply isn't working the way it's currently being thought. I hated it in primary school, I pretty much ignored it all the way until secondary school. My parents played a big part in my education and the only thing they couldn't help me with was Irish. So my Irish was poor in comparison to my maths and English in primary school, I couldn't get help with it at home. When you're that young, parents often play a key role in education.

In secondary school, they expect you to come in with a good level of Irish. Most people in my school had far below what was needed for HL JC Irish. I did HL in the JC and got a D (was gonna drop on the day, but said, arra fúckit, I'll give it a try, TIS' ONLY DA JAY SEE).

My German, which I started in first year, is much, much, MUCH better than my Irish. Why? Because my parents don't know Irish. They could never help me with it, and didn't have the money to send me off to the Gaeltacht every summer. There was no emphasis placed on it.

But, jumpguy, surely your parents don't know German? That is true, they don't know German. But I started learning German when I was 13 and didn't need my parents to help me do my homework anymore. I was well capable of independent learning. I could start from the start and had strong English as a comparison language.

So, my opinion is, teach Irish in secondary schools, or start at 4th class in primary schools maybe. Teach it like a foreign language (I know that sounds bad, but, the cold raw truth is that the majority of the country only speak English fluently). Sheets of vocab, basic grammar, etc. Maybe for the JC make it mandatory and purely a test of comprehension and composition. For the LC, make it optional and maybe add a VERY small amount of literature to the syllabus.

Unfortunately, I don't think any minister of education is ever gonna think outside the box much.

Agreed, unless you went to a gaelscoil at primary level, you aren't going to be up to scratch for secondary level Irish.


That said, I voted for it to be compulsory. Heritage, yada, yada, yada.

I believe it should be compulsory but shouldn't play such a large part in third level entry requirements. The format of it also needs to be changed to teach the language, rather than having students learning off essays to cover questions the teachers couldn't even dream of bringing them to a level to answer themselves.

2c

degausserxo

Yes, definitely. I agree that it should definitely be revamped though; the new LC course with the emphasis on the oral exam is being examined from next year onwards, which is at least a baby step in the right direction of restructuring the curriculum so that it actually works in favour of the language. The amount of people that are put off (or at least were in my LC year, 2009) by doing higher level were put off purely because of the bulk of literature that had to be learned. It's ridiculous, I know a fair few people who'd be fluent in the language (including a guy who was basically our head ceannaire in the gaeltacht for three years) that did OL Irish because of the syllabus. Combined with the huge step in the level of language between JC and LC level, it was totally unrealistic to expect students to take on that amount of work for one subject. I'd be all for making a separate Irish language course (with stuff like the oral, reading comps, grammar, maybe an essay being tested) and a separate one for literature. It's there if it wants to be learned, which I'm sure it still would be, but it doesn't force it on everyone who wants to learn the language but finds the literature to be a barrier.

In saying that, I think there's definitely something ingrained in Irish society about hating the language. We constantly hear people complain about it from a young age, and take on that mentality ourselves - it was like me with maths, I heard people complain about it from a young age, so I was adamant that I hated it too and was really bad at it, but when it got to sixth year and I actually sat down and worked at it, it turned out that I wasn't actually so bad!

Pygmalion

Jackobyte wrote: »

Not even HL maths, which involves twice as much work as some other subjects, and still gets rewarded the same as Ag. Science, Construction Studies, etc?

Twice as much work?
Bull****.

If you're decent at maths and actually understand what's being taught there's practically no work at all in the curriculum, I did practically nothing for the LC and Maths was the only subject I got an A1 in, because once you do a few past papers and learn off some simple formulae you're set.
Giving bonus points for it just means giving a massive advantage to those who are already going to do well in it.

Slow Show

I like Irish, quite a lot tbh. Yeah it feels like the biggest waste of time ever sometimes but all in all, I actually appreciate it as a language and I really don't think it should be left to die, which is inevitably going to happen if it stops being compuslory. I think I've been lucky enough to have a few decent teachers scattered throughout primary school so I've had a good enough grasp of it from the beginning, but I kind of like it and it just feels like such an important part of our culture. I'm more of a language than maths/science person so this is just my opinion here.

Also, there's just something I found really pleasurable today in my Irish mock, looking at what I'd written and feeling quite proud of myself, moreso than I would for most other subjects. Also, it was pretty awesome to be able to say 'cailin madra' and stuff like that in front of our French exchange students.

This probably makes no sense but +1 for Irish for me, I think it's a pretty cool language that we should strive to keep alive. I know, I know, there's gonna be the whole 'make it optional and people will be interested in it' and while I think I'd pick it even if it was optional, I doubt many others would...and meh, when you look at it, school is filled with mounds and mounds of pointless information. Go Irish!

Jackobyte

Pygmalion wrote: »

Twice as much work?
Bull****.

If you're decent at maths and actually understand what's being taught there's practically no work at all in the curriculum, I did practically nothing for the LC and Maths was the only subject I got an A1 in, because once you do a few past papers and learn off some simple formulae you're set.
Giving bonus points for it just means giving a massive advantage to those who are already going to do well in it.

TBH, I'm still in 4th year and haven't started the course yet so I was just going on what other people/teachers/guidance counsellors have said. They all seem ti share the consensus that it involves a lot more work that other subjects. Some have even gone on to say it should be worth double points.

Slow Show

bluejaymraz wrote: »

I can't say that I know a whole lot about the L.C. Irish course but for the J.C. it was just a matter of learning paragraphs off about themes and such and just spitting it out on the page on the day of the exam. It didn't matter if the best theme that came up was uaigneas and the piece we had learned was about grá, we had to write it down anyway because we weren't able to write something of a good enough standard for ourselves.

I just actually read over this thread and actually, I am quite biased. Whatever your problem is there - I think I'd be well able to manipulate a question and learn about something else. In fact, I rarely even learn answers and just go for it. But I guess that's just me, I've had a fairly decent foundation in Irish. I slip up in grammar quite a bit, or a lot, but hey, I can string a sentence together. Heck, I'd say I could string a whole paragraph together.

Actually yeah, new opinion - compulsory up to the JC, optional afterwards so it's not going to affect people who don't have a natural ability for it. I'd still do it though. Is aoibhinn liom Gaeilge!

Davidius

Jackobyte wrote: »

TBH, I'm still in 4th year and haven't started the course yet so I was just going on what other people/teachers/guidance counsellors have said. They all seem ti share the consensus that it involves a lot more work that other subjects. Some have even gone on to say it should be worth double points.

I would imagine this is a self perpetuating problem. HL maths is not particularly difficult, you just don't get away as easily with just trying to learn it off. A lot of students simply avoid even attempting HL maths because of how hard they heard it was. An anecdotal example being that almost everybody in my class dropped to OL on day 1 of 5th year. I also remember my Careers teacher kept trying to convince me that HL maths was hard and that I shouldn't rely on it even though I got consistent As in it.

amacachi

Pygmalion wrote: »

Twice as much work?
Bull****.

If you're decent at maths and actually understand what's being taught there's practically no work at all in the curriculum, I did practically nothing for the LC and Maths was the only subject I got an A1 in, because once you do a few past papers and learn off some simple formulae you're set.
Giving bonus points for it just means giving a massive advantage to those who are already going to do well in it.

In fairness that all just stems from the PHEER that people have of maths. Spend 8 years doing 4 operations then suddenly it all changes in secondary school.


Reading this thread is really saddening for me, I thought the younger generation would be a bit more liberal than the ones who get to decide on these matters, seems I was wrong.

jumpguy

Definitely agree with what the others say about HL maths. While yes, it is true that some people aren't able for it (like any other subject), most people drop down simply because of what they've heard about it being so hard. If you can get a B upwards in JC HL maths, LC HL maths is doable, and if you like maths, a very nice subject. I remember my first HL LC maths class, loads of people were just trying it out. Our teacher gave a horrific speech on how difficult it was and how much work was required...I think if there was about 19 in the class at the time, there was only around 9 remaining for the next class! We had barely cracked open the book!

However, the workload is disproportionately high in HL maths compared to, for example, HL chemistry or HL physics (comparing sciences). But, on the flipside, plenty of option is allowed on the paper, and you could technically not bother revising some sections of the course and just play to your strenghts and be okay on the day.

ANYWAY THIS THREAD ISN'T ABOUT MATHS SORRY.

soccymonster

Noel2k9 wrote: »

I think it should be because I was made do it and thus so should everyone else due to the fact that I had to suffer my way through it.

:pac:
This is my thought exactly. If I was made do it, others should be made suffer too! :P

Nah but seriously, as some people were saying, I'd find it better if there was classes for both conversational Irish and then all that literary stuff. And a student had to do one for Leaving Cert (y'know keep up the culture etc).

Some people say "whats the point in Irish, shur we'll never use it again" but imo, the language is part of our heritage (which is important) and after all that work Douglas Hyde and those guys did trying to revive the language and get it onto the school curriculm, I'd hate to see it disappear because Fine Gael wanted to get a couple of votes.

And this is coming from someone who is crap at Irish.

soccymonster

Gwan the Irish language!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS3Llgm5Lvs

suitcasepink

soccymonster wrote: »

Gwan the Irish language!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS3Llgm5Lvs

BEST IRISH CLASS EVER!



Ermm I voted yes, Ill explain it later/tomorrow Just trying to form sentences atm (See I cant even do it in English, I totally suck)


Also really good thread idea unknown

deise go deo

Tá TG Lurgan ar fheabhas ar fad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoqSTktQGWQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg90B-FMhZQ

Gaeilge abú.:D

Namlub

I only watch TG4 for the French movies...

deise go deo

Namlub wrote: »

But realistically, do more than 1.5% of DoE employees need to be able to provide services through Irish anymore? Not referring to you, but I find it strange that a lot of pro-Irish people are bursting to give figures to prove that the language is going from strength to strength, but at the same time think that it would disappear if schoolgoers could exercise their free will when it comes to taking the subject....

1.5% is less than in the general population. How that happened without active discrimination is anyones guess.


The future is a bilingual Ireland. The department responsible for education should be leading from the front in that regard, not lagging behind.


Irish is growing, but to claim that it is going from strength to strength would be an exaggeration, however this is due more to government obstruction than public indifference.

Demand for gaelscoileanna is far ahead of supply, there are 16 campaigns for new gaelscoileanna/gaelcholaiste around the country, but despite this the government has refused to recognize a new gaelscoil since 2008.

deise go deo

Here is a video on the Protest against FG's Policy earlier today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLFsH6zfzzo

Times Article on the Protest.

Pygmalion

A small percentage of enthusiasts don't want the language to go away so they want it to be forced on everyone else.
That's basically what's happening, amirite?

deise go deo

Pygmalion wrote: »

A small percentage of enthusiasts don't want the language to go away so they want it to be forced on everyone else.
That's basically what's happening, amirite?

Nope, The majority of the population are in favor of the Irish language, FG are playing silly buggers on the issue and it is costing them votes.

amacachi

Let that majority of the population keep the language alive. If they all got fluent they could raise their kids that way and the use of the language would explode.

Or maybe some people just like to get to tell people what to do.

Pygmalion

deise go deo wrote: »

Nope, The majority of the population are in favor of the Irish language, FG are playing silly buggers on the issue and it is costing them votes.

If the majority of the population are in favour of it there should be no need to force people to do it.

deise go deo

Pygmalion wrote: »

If the majority of the population are in favour of it there should be no need to force people to do it.

There is a whole list of reasons why people who are in favor of Irish would not choose it for the LC.

Its not just a matter of if people do or dont want to study Irish, The reality of the points system has to be taken into account.

Pigwidgeon

deise go deo wrote: »

There is a whole list of reasons why people who are in favor of Irish would not choose it for the LC.

Its not just a matter of if people do or dont want to study Irish, The reality of the points system has to be taken into account.

Exactly, which is why I think it should be compulsory, but not as an exam subject. The exam should be optional for those who want to do exams in it, but everyone else still does classes in it, focusing more on conversation and making it fun to learn again. Sort of like how religion is taught in a lot of schools at the moment.

deise go deo

I dont think there would be any problem having it as an Exam class. Structuring it like Religion dose not seem appealing to me, mainly because Religion was a joke class that people dident need to pay any attention in, in my experience.


However, the exam system for Irish needs to be restructured, Literature takes up around 70% of teaching time in Irish class, Even though it is worth much less in the Exam, This is because there is simply too much material to get through.

I would suggest restructuring the Curriculum aroung the TEG sylabus.

Teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge

I would suggest that the Lower Intermediate (B1) level be the course followed for the JC

At this level The curriculum is devided up in this way:

Speaking 30%
2 parts (general conversation/discussing pictures)

Listening Comprehension 25%
4 parts (a mixture of open questions, multiple choice and true or false questions based on radio notices, conversations and a radio interview)

Reading Comprehension 25%
3 questions (a mixture of multiple-choice, open questions, fill the gaps, etc)

Writing 20%
3 questions (a letter, an e-mail message and a gapped text)


The advantage of this is that JC students will have a recognised qualification at the end of it.

I would suggest that the LC would then go on to be Upper Intermediate (B2) Level with more emphsis on spoken Irish, for everyone, With a second Literature subject at Advanced 1 (C1) level that would be optional.

Again, students will be working twords a recognised qualification.

Screaminmidget

kateos2 wrote: »

Exactly, which is why I think it should be compulsory, but not as an exam subject. The exam should be optional for those who want to do exams in it, but everyone else still does classes in it, focusing more on conversation and making it fun to learn again. Sort of like how religion is taught in a lot of schools at the moment.

I'm sorry, but that just sounds like the biggest waste of time. The time allocated for irish could be used towards something more productive,for example, in one of the courses where the teachers are already struggling to finish the course. Like TG.

Or part of it could be used for PE in Senior cycle.

Pigwidgeon

Screaminmidget wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that just sounds like the biggest waste of time. The time allocated for irish could be used towards something more productive,for example, in one of the courses where the teachers are already struggling to finish the course. Like TG.

Or part of it could be used for PE in Senior cycle.

It wouldn't necessarily be a waste of time if it was a success and got more people actually speaking the language.

Obviously there are benefits to PE but for people who are uninterested in sports and exercise, that would just as much a waste of time. In my school there would always be at least 10 people with notes, or who has forgotten a change of clothes and would just sit talking for the class.

In sixth year I found religion was a nice break from all the stress of exam classes. It was a class where we had discussions, learnt about other cultures and rarely just stayed on religion. Why would it be a waste of time for Irish to be like that? I don't think it's necessary for there to be exams in it but the fact is if Irish isn't compulsory in some form, nobody will do it, it's too hard a course I'm sure people would pick easier subjects instead. I think of would be better to have it as non-exam subject than not at all.

Screaminmidget

kateos2 wrote: »

It wouldn't necessarily be a waste of time if it was a success and got more people actually speaking the language.

Obviously there are benefits to PE but for people who are uninterested in sports and exercise, that would just as much a waste of time. In my school there would always be at least 10 people with notes, or who has forgotten a change of clothes and would just sit talking for the class.

In sixth year I found religion was a nice break from all the stress of exam classes. It was a class where we had discussions, learnt about other cultures and rarely just stayed on religion. Why would it be a waste of time for Irish to be like that? I don't think it's necessary for there to be exams in it but the fact is if Irish isn't compulsory in some form, nobody will do it, it's too hard a course I'm sure people would pick easier subjects instead. I think of would be better to have it as non-exam subject than not at all.

Its already Compulsory and the people doing it arent learning. Why should they learn it when there is no motivation and no rewards at the end (points wise)??? I'm sure most people would rather use the time productivley, such as study etc.

Sorry, That was a biased answer from me :P we had to choose between honours maths and PE. I'm just saying the time could be used for other subjects which students have an interest in and would be put to better use. Or PE, because I never really got much excersise during my LC, along with many others in my year.

You cant really compare the religion class to an Irish class. There Involves absolutley no learning, and is there more as a break than anything. I just cant see this working because students will have to be working out the translations in there heads, and overall the effort would become too much.

jumpguy

Children's parents, at this generation, mostly, do not know Irish.

Hence it is solely up to teachers to begin a generation of fluent Irish speakers.

But children are heavily dependent on parents for their educational needs at a young age, parents who mostly cannot speak Irish.

Hence, wait until the children are older, and start teaching them Irish. Make Irish mandatory for the Junior Cert and optional for the Leaving Cert. That way, it still has to be learned, people still have to give it a chance, and if they like it after 5/6 years of learning it, they can keep it. If not, it won't be forced on them. It's the perfect intermediary between both sides of the argument.

/theargumentiputforwardearlier

But there's another problem, modern Irish industrial life has no place for Irish. But industrial life is growing, most people these days live to work when they graduate. No time to try and support the national language, it's not high on many's priority list. Irish has far more barriers to success than just how it's thought. That said, fixing how it's thought would be a good place to start...