The Irish language thread

Seren_

I love Irish - the way it sounds, the way it has the most random words for things... It's not really like any other language.

Was always crap at it at school though. I can get on grand speaking or listening to it, but I pretty much can't read or write it at all

wayhey

sock puppet wrote: »

You sure? I only glanced at the article in the Irish Times but I think it had Irish as one of the subjects students tend to do well in.

As a repeat Leaving Cert-er, if I didn't have to do Irish I wouldn't. The fact that Higher Level Geography and Higher Level Irish are worth the same points is an absolute joke. We study a play. It's worth about 5% of our grade. That's months of reading it, translating it, doing character and theme analyses. Not to mention learning the notes off. Then there's all the poetry which is worth a similar amount.

I agree with deise- if it was ever reduced to a points issue, Irish, as it is right now, would suffer. People simply wouldn't pick it and if people do well in it it's because we simply have to to get into college or we like it. I think it's really unfair the way Higher Level Maths is put on a pedestal.. Yes, it's important to industry and the future of the country but the difficulty aspect of it is really null and void if you consider Irish. I think they're both equally difficult...

I'd like to see the Irish curriculum focus itself more, perhaps even a split in the subject. Everyone does Irish, the oral is worth about 70%. The written paper could be made up of listening and some comprehensions similar to the French paper. Then, for those so inclined, we could have Irish Literature & History or something like that were somebody can study all those poems, etc. as a separate, new subject.

I like Irish but it isn't working. The blame doesn't lie with the organisations out there promoting it. I love reading Foinse and I think TG4 is great, its production values really put RTÉ to shame... Compare Ponc with The Den or whatever that godawful evening show, TRTÉ I think is called. Or drama that's on during the year. People mightn't love TG4 but I love the variety and the chances they take.

I love Irish, I wish we spoke it every day. Absolutely English is important, I'm not a fanatic! But I do think we are losing out on a vital part of our culture. I'd really love to become fluent in the spoken language when I'm over. There's nothing like it!!

/rant :P

LupinFace

I'm not pushed either way, but then again I'm not really a language person at all ~

Slow Show

I never noticed this thread...Hmmm well I kinda outlined my feelings for Irish in one of the various other threads but to reiterate - I really like the language, it's a bit of a bummer how it's taught but I think I'm going to be getting a nice new reformed LC course so hurray for that. I think we should all strive to keep it alive, it should be compulsory etc. etc. 700 years.

Nah but seriously, is aoibhean liom Gaeilge ach tá an oideachas uafasach anseo!

That sentence probably makes no sense...it's funny how I'd be able to formulate a sentence like that in French but not Irish. Actually I'm gonna give that a go...J'adore l'irlandaise mais l'education est tres terrible ici. Not sure if there should be a l' before irlandaise or if there should be an e at the end but c'est la vie! Or maybe it should be la gaelique. Hmmm...

I'm tired. Very very tired.

blockedPaT

I hated doing it school, the poetry mainly and never found a use for the language outside of school yet

Aisling(",)

I like the language but I hate how it is taught.

In school the poems and stories were by far the think I disliked most but I always quite liked the spoken language.I've chosen to study it in college as part of my course but I'm still ridiculously bad at it.Even though I've had a billion and one grammer classes I make the silly mistakes all the time.

THe education system in Ireland is horrendus in relation to irish.I've been studing this langauge for 16 years now and only last week found out the word for shower.I could talk about the allitaration in a poem but yet some basic things would be beyond me.They need to get down to brass tacks and stop with the convolouted(sp) approach to Irish I think it should be thought like french as a seperate language not in the style they have it now which is trying to be similar to the english exam.

Pigwidgeon

I've merged both the irish language threads because the discussion in both are almost identical. If all further discussion could be kept to this thread that'd be great.

Kate.

unknown13

kateos2 wrote: »

I've merged both the irish language threads because the discussion in both are almost identical. If all further discussion could be kept to this thread that'd be great.

Kate.

Fully support this move because with Labour and FG agreeing to go into the Government they now have said they will be reviewing the curriculum and my thread didn't make sense and was a bit pointless now because of the new decision.

Banjo Fella

I always feel so self-conscious about speaking in Irish around my brother, or my dad, or my aunt, because while they're so florid and make it sound so natural, I usually mispronounce words or get the syntax slightly wrong. Even worse, I sometimes drift into the dangerous realms of "Béarlachas", Irish that accidentally slips into an English sort of grammatical construction! It felt like there was an awful lot of pressure to speak the language flawlessly, not just well, and that soured my enjoyment of it a bit.

I do really like Irish, though, even if I'm shy about speaking it. I went to an Irish primary and secondary school, and I loved it there for the most part. There was something fun about continuously, seamlessly swapping between two languages (even though we weren't supposed to sometimes - the punishment for getting caught speaking in English was fairly steep!), and I think it made me appreciate language in a different way. Being constantly exposed to the language does make it easier, but it made things more difficult in other areas too - for example learning Spanish through Irish, or in History of Art, where we had to write an analysis of Degas' brushwork technique entirely in Irish! Pretty frickin' tricky, because you had to learn off so many technical, situational words for it.

As for whether or not to keep it as a core LC subject, I'm not sure. I'd be sad to see it go, personally. It would probably be a nail in its coffin, as A1s are generally easier to obtain in other subjects and people wouldn't want to disadvantage themselves by picking it. Also, learning to become fluent in a second language from an early age is very valuable, apparently it makes it much easier for you to pick up other languages in future... so, it would be a shame not to have a second compulsory language there. At the same time, people shouldn't have to do it if they really don't want to. Hmm, I don't really know what could be done.

Insect Overlord

Banjo Fella wrote: »

I always feel so self-conscious about speaking in Irish around my brother, or my dad, or my aunt, because while they're so florid and make it sound so natural, I usually mispronounce words or get the syntax slightly wrong. Even worse, I sometimes drift into the dangerous realms of "Béarlachas", Irish that accidentally slips into an English sort of grammatical construction! It felt like there was an awful lot of pressure to speak the language flawlessly, not just well, and that soured my enjoyment of it a bit.

Just to reply quickly to this part, you've very little to worry about when it comes to speaking "flawed" Irish, or even Béarlachas. I find that most people will forgive/ignore mistakes when they can see someone is making an effort. I was listening to Raidió na Gaeltachta yesterday, for example, and they had an interview with a camogaí captain from Clare. Her team was after winning a game in Croke Park last weekend, and she volunteered to do the post-match publicity as Gaeilge. The amount of mistakes she made was incredible! But, it was clear the DJ/interviewer had made her feel comfortable and all her answers could still be understood just fine. It was like listening to an informal chat, rather than anything stressful/pressurised.

Slow Show

Is the LC course getting changed next year or is it gonna be exactly the same? I've heard conflicting stories on this, like that it's gonna be 50-50 oral/written...I'm really hoping this is true but I'm not sure.

Namlub

It's 40/60 from next year, with less poems and no stair na Gaeilge. I heard it's changing again in 2014 though...

kingstapler

Well you know if they tried to teach it a different way to the way they do it would be better than removing it from the leaving cert system. You might not use it after school but thats not a reason to get rid of it I dont think you use most of the stuff after school anyway like geogrpahy or history or poems or science or maths equations.

Namlub

No-one was suggesting that it be removed from the LC system though, just removed as a core subject.

Lawliet

kingstapler wrote: »

Well you know if they tried to teach it a different way to the way they do it would be better than removing it from the leaving cert system. You might not use it after school but thats not a reason to get rid of it I dont think you use most of the stuff after school anyway like geogrpahy or history or poems or science or maths equations.

Nonsense. That stuff is vital. Not a single day goes by where I don't have to quote a poem, list a theorem or name an obscure country's capital. Hell just the other day a driver wouldn't let me on the bus until I'd explained the origins of the Manhattan project.

Daegerty

Lawliet wrote: »

I don't think it should be compulsory; forcing students to learn a badly taught subject will only make most people despise it.

isn't that just the problem then

electrictrad

Lawliet wrote: »

Nonsense. That stuff is vital. Not a single day goes by where I don't have to quote a poem, list a theorem or name an obscure country's capital. Hell just the other day a driver wouldn't let me on the bus until I'd explained the origins of the Manhattan project.

I'm not gonna go into why I disagree with every aspect of this post, but suffice to say that knowledge is power, (yeah I know, a quote from a speech or something!), and you're definitely forgetting the cringe-worthy "Ciúnas Bóthar Cailín Bainne" advert . . .imagine your embarrasement in Buenos Aires!(some obscure country's capital, in case you're wondering)

On the subject of Irish, the language does give us a sense of who we are. It is an identity. It's something we can all at least half-do that all those Australian and American workers we will work beside when we emigrate wont have a clue about. . .speaking our own native language. . .it's something that we can be proud of. . .

On the subject of the teaching of Irish, 2nd level is not the problem. The disparity of standards between the kids who come from the Gaelscoils and the kids from the standard primaries is frightening. . .even some of the dimmest kids from the gaelscoils end up in top honours without even trying. . .and some of the smartest kids, people who end up going for medecine and dentistry, end up in pass. . .

However, in general, the subject at Leaving is too big. It is really two subjects, squashed together. One one side, it is very like english in one sense, with studied poetry, prose, plays, films, history, and intellectual essays. On the other hand, it is like the continental languages, with an oral, an aural, reading comprehensions, and some funtional writing. A student of Irish spends over seven hours being examined for Irish. They get the same amount of points as students who sit applied maths, who have one 2 and a half hour exam, or students of Physics, Accounting, and the likes, who sit 3 hour papers.

There is a good case to be made for splitting Irish into two subjects, along the lines of the Fine Gael proposals, but keeping Irish as a compulsory subject. One subject would be a communications-based subject, with much more emphasis on functional writing, things like reports, letter-writing, ect., and orals and aurals, along the lines of the continental languages, but with useful elements of JC English as well, such as the focus on the functional.

The other subject would be a prose-based subject, with much more emphasis on poems, essay-writing, novels, literature, plays, and history of Irish, making it almost identical to the English course. There is also an argument for allowing English to be optional for Gaeltacht students should they choose the Irish Literature subject as well, as they both serve the same purpose at leaving, really, and Irish is the first language of the country. . .English should be off the compulsory list before Irish in reality. . .

Since Irish is constititionally the first language of the country, does that mean that taking Irish off the compulsory list for leaving cert and leaving English on it is technically unconstitutional ? . . .I'd be grateful if anyone could answer this. . .

Lawliet

electrictrad wrote: »

I'm not gonna go into why I disagree with every aspect of this post, but suffice to say that knowledge is power,

You do realize I was taking the piss right? It was a Dara O'Briain reference.

electrictrad

Lawliet wrote: »

You do realize I was taking the piss right? It was a Dara O'Briain reference.

Yeah, of course . . I just object to the notion that Irish is useless. . . we don't get BBC this far south, anyway. . .

Lawliet

electrictrad wrote: »

Yeah, of course . . I just object to the notion that Irish is useless. . . we don't get BBC this far south, anyway. . .

And frankly I object to the notion that Irish is needed. Speaking as someone who went as an undiagnosed dyslexic for most of their school life I absolutely hated Irish. I couldn't speak it, couldn't read it, and I sure as hell couldn't write it. It was only with a lot of extra help from my lovely Irish teacher and a stupid amount of work that I managed to scrap a C at ordinary level. And to this day I can't string a sentence together in Irish or understand all but the most basic of phrases.

So I guess you could say I have a chip on my shoulder about the whole thing, but I really hate when people say we need Irish to "give us a sense of who we are". It's such superior bullshit. The only use of the Irish language that I ever identified with was from those 'cringe-worthy "Ciúnas Bóthar Cailín Bainne" adverts'.

I'm not having a go at people who can speak Irish and are proud of their ability to do so, I just resent those that think others should have the same ability and pride.

electrictrad

Lawliet wrote: »

And frankly I object to the notion that Irish is needed. Speaking as someone who went as an undiagnosed dyslexic for most of their school life I absolutely hated Irish. I couldn't speak it, couldn't read it, and I sure as hell couldn't write it. It was only with a lot of extra help from my lovely Irish teacher and a stupid amount of work that I managed to scrap a C at ordinary level. And to this day I can't string a sentence together in Irish or understand all but the most basic of phrases.

So I guess you could say I have a chip on my shoulder about the whole thing, but I really hate when people say we need Irish to "give us a sense of who we are". It's such superior bullshit. The only use of the Irish language that I ever identified with was from those 'cringe-worthy "Ciúnas Bóthar Cailín Bainne" adverts'.

I'm not having a go at people who can speak Irish and are proud of their ability to do so, I just resent those that think others should have the same ability and pride.

I understand where you're coming from, but just because it's been badly taught, and the teaching of the subject has gone badly for some doesn't mean it should be abandoned. . .if this language goes, it is NEVER coming back, and so much of our culture, our heritage, our history, and our identity will be lost completely. . .there will be little to nothing to distinguish us fron either the British or the Americans

And we are neither.

Namlub

You seriously think the Irish language is the one of the only things that separates us from the British or Americans? I hardly think that LCs having the option to drop the language would lead to everyone forgetting what nationality they are...

electrictrad

Namlub wrote: »

You seriously think the Irish language is the one of the only things that separates us from the British or Americans?

Yes, I do.

Let's face it, without our language and culture, we are little more than another faceless British Colony, like America, Australia, South Africa, Canada, and much of the Pacific and Caribbean islands. . .

Lets face it, think of the towns and cities we all live in. We have Tesco's, McDonalds, Waterstones, Easons, Subway, BurgerKing, Vodafone. . .

At home, we have Dyson, Microsoft, Sony, ect. . . even the praties were brought in by an Englishman, Walter Raleigh, from Virginia, in America

Most of our laws are remnants of English law. . .even today, a lot of our legislation is copied almost word-for-word from our English counterparts. . .

. . .How many people across the world still think Ireland is a part of the UK?. . .more than you might think, I'm afraid. . .

Lawliet

electrictrad wrote: »

Yes, I do.

Let's face it, without our language and culture, we are little more than another faceless British Colony, like America, Australia, South Africa, Canada, and much of the Pacific and Caribbean islands. . .

Lets face it, think of the towns and cities we all live in. We have Tesco's, McDonalds, Waterstones, Easons, Subway, BurgerKing, Vodafone. . .

At home, we have Dyson, Microsoft, Sony, ect. . . even the praties were brought in by an Englishman, Walter Raleigh, from Virginia, in America

Most of our laws are remnants of English law. . .even today, a lot of our legislation is copied almost word-for-word from our English counterparts. . .

. . .How many people across the world still think Ireland is a part of the UK?. . .more than you might think, I'm afraid. . .

Frankly, who cares? It's not as if being Irish is special, besides I'd say most people would rather speak English and have English and American shops and TV shows, than to be isolated and speak Irish. I for one am all for integrating parts of other cultures into our own, as Socrates once said "I am not an Athenian or a Greek but a citizen of the world."

deise go deo

Lawliet wrote: »

Frankly, who cares? It's not as if being Irish is special, besides I'd say most people would rather speak English and have English and American shops and TV shows, than to be isolated and speak Irish. I for one am all for integrating parts of other cultures into our own, as Socrates once said "I am not an Athenian or a Greek but a citizen of the world."

I care, I don't speak Irish because it makes me special, it is simply part of who I am, quite frankly I resent the suggestion that speaking Irish means I am isolated. That is nonsense.

MyKeyG

Lawliet wrote: »

Frankly, who cares? It's not as if being Irish is special, besides I'd say most people would rather speak English and have English and American shops and TV shows, than to be isolated and speak Irish. I for one am all for integrating parts of other cultures into our own, as Socrates once said "I am not an Athenian or a Greek but a citizen of the world."

Yes by all means integrate what other cultures have to offer but not at the expense of every fibre of our culture. There's nothing wrong with McDonalds, Tesco, Vodafone etc. or that being Irish is anything special exclusively but every country should be permitted awareness of what little of their culture remains. By the way the statement 'who cares' makes you sound extremely ignorant. If you don't care that's your prerogative don't hold it up as a general attitude.

jumpguy

deise go deo wrote: »

I care, I don't speak Irish because it makes me special, it is simply part of who I am, quite frankly I resent the suggestion that speaking Irish means I am isolated. That is nonsense.

I think she means speaking Irish exclusively and no other langauge (as in, not being able to comprehend English).

Insect Overlord

Lawliet wrote: »

would rather speak English and have English and American shops and TV shows, than to be isolated and speak Irish.

In an ideal world, we'd be equally capable of enjoying British/American/Australian TV/films/music/books and have a functional command of Irish. The two are not mutually exclusive, by any means.

Lawliet

deise go deo wrote: »

I care, I don't speak Irish because it makes me special, it is simply part of who I am, quite frankly I resent the suggestion that speaking Irish means I am isolated. That is nonsense.

That's not what I meant; I was trying to say that if parts of English culture weren't integrated into Irish society -ergo we couldn't speak English- then we would be pretty isolated. Not that speaking Irish as well as English makes people isolated.

By the way the statement 'who cares' makes you sound extremely ignorant. If you don't care that's your prerogative don't hold it up as a general attitude.

Seriously though, does anyone -bar an extremely patriotic minority- really mind that we have English and American shops?

MyKeyG wrote: »

Every country should be permitted awareness of what little of their culture remains.

To clarify, I'm not saying Irish shouldn't be taught, just that it shouldn't be forced on people. If students are interested in learning then of course they should be encouraged. I may be pretty apathetic towards Irish culture but obviously a lot of people take pride in it which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing, besides any knowledge is good so more power to them. Having said that if most people aren't interested in speaking Irish and it dies out, then I don't think it's a major tragedy.

MyKeyG

Lawliet wrote: »

Seriously though, does anyone -bar an extremely patriotic minority- really mind that we have English and American shops?

Nobody's talking about booting out foreign language or commerce. I think foreign businesses are the backbone of the Irish economy. However people do not want to see the Irish culture or identity completely diluted by external influence. Go to France, Italy, Germany and see how little American influence they allow. And they don't speak English either! Are they isolated?