The Irish language thread

Lawliet

I was talking about an extreme example of cultural isolation, the countries you mentioned are not an example of that since a lot of them do speak English as a second language and plenty of American pop culture is present in all those countries.

jumpguy

MyKeyG wrote: »

Nobody's talking about booting out foreign language or commerce. I think foreign businesses are the backbone of the Irish economy. However people do not want to see the Irish culture or identity completely diluted by external influence. Go to France, Italy, Germany and see how little American influence they allow. And they don't speak English either! Are they isolated?

I can't speak for Italy because I've never been nor do I know many Italian people, but the amount of French and German people that are bilingual with English is huge.

They don't have restrictions on American influence, it's just that markets don't have similiar tastes to American markets (that said, there still is quite a large amount of American companies present). Unlike Ireland. We are more Boston than Berlin, as they say.

The people will maintain culture if they are happy maintaining it. Many people are not happy about learning (or being forced to learn) a language spoken by a tiny minority of people. Foreign markets will come here because people like it, Irish won't be learned because people don't like it, GAA will continue to go from strenght to strenght because people like it, etc.

MyKeyG

Lawliet wrote: »

American pop culture is present in all those countries.

Yes but not at the expense of their own.

MyKeyG

jumpguy wrote: »

I can't speak for Italy because I've never been nor do I know many Italian people, but the amount of French and German people that are bilingual with English is huge.

They don't have restrictions on American influence, it's just that markets don't have similiar tastes to American markets (that said, there still is quite a large amount of American companies present). Unlike Ireland. We are more Boston than Berlin, as they say.

The people will maintain culture if they are happy maintaining it. Many people are not happy about learning (or being forced to learn) a language spoken by a tiny minority of people. Foreign markets will come here because people like it, Irish won't be learned because people don't like it, GAA will continue to go from strenght to strenght because people like it, etc.

I take your point but it is irrelevant to my statemet. I'm not discussing Irish language being forced on people, that's the main thread. The post you quoted was in response to an individual who claims nobody cares what happens to the Irish language altogether which I disagree with. I find your post about the French not restricting American influence amazing since I've lived there and they do their utmost to ensure American culture does not interfere with their own.

I think learning a language is a practical exercise. Maths, Science, History, Geography etc are facts that are learned. To command a language at any level is an academic achievement. I'm very proud to say I speak Irish and French fluently. So therein lies my point. What happens to language in the curriculum altogether? Will the same people who refuse to learn Irish decide to learn a European language?

Lawliet

MyKeyG wrote: »

The post you quoted was in response to an individual who claims nobody cares what happens to the Irish language altogether which I disagree with.

I never claimed that nobody cared about the Irish language. In fact I've acknowledged more than once that quite a few people do care about it. I was responding to someone complaining about Ireland having English had American shops. I also reiterated that I was talking about just that aspect of the post when I replied to you.

I find your post about the French not restricting American influence amazing since I've lived there and they do their utmost to ensure American culture does not interfere with their own.

He didn't mention the French alone though, he also mentioned Germany which definitely has a strong American pop culture influence. Italy as well isn't completely free from Americanisation.

Will the same people who refuse to learn Irish decide to learn a European language?

Well that depends on the individual, people might be more interested in learning a language they could use abroad. Learning a foreign language gives people the opportunity to live and work in different countries. Even just the idea of visiting another country and being able to have a conversation with the locals, would be more motivation to learn a foreign language over Irish.

deise go deo

Lawliet wrote: »

That's not what I meant; I was trying to say that if parts of English culture weren't integrated into Irish society -ergo we couldn't speak English- then we would be pretty isolated. Not that speaking Irish as well as English makes people isolated.

Care to show me where anyone anywhere has ever suggested that Irish people should speak Irish only? That is a strawman argument.

Lawliet

deise go deo wrote: »

Care to show me where anyone anywhere has ever suggested that Irish people should speak Irish only? That is a strawman argument.

Well of course it is! I was exagerating to illustrate the point that's it's silly to complain about other cultures being integrated into our own!

Namlub

It's pretty clear that Lawliet was speaking hypothetically, I don't know whether people are twisting her words or genuinely failing to understand the point she's making...

MyKeyG

Lawliet wrote: »

I never claimed that nobody cared about the Irish language. In fact I've acknowledged more than once that quite a few people do care about it.

So where does your 'who cares' comment fit into all of this?

He didn't mention the French alone though, he also mentioned Germany which definitely has a strong American pop culture influence. Italy as well isn't completely free from Americanisation.

I understand that but he did include France. It's on that point I chose to show his reasoning was at fault. My ultimate point is that while these countries may indulge in American culture they DO NOT do so at the expense of their own.

Well that depends on the individual, people might be more interested in learning a language they could use abroad. Learning a foreign language gives people the opportunity to live and work in different countries. Even just the idea of visiting another country and being able to have a conversation with the locals, would be more motivation to learn a foreign language over Irish.

Are you trying to say that leaving cert level equips an individual with the required command over a language to live and work abroad? The LC language curriculum is basic at best. In fact my college required me to take an advanced French course before sending me there. European language at LC level is about as useful as tits on a bull.

MyKeyG

Namlub wrote: »

It's pretty clear that Lawliet was speaking hypothetically, I don't know whether people are twisting her words or genuinely failing to understand the point she's making...

The same could be said of her. She seems to me one of a few people who see what they want to see in others posts.

MyKeyG

Lawliet wrote: »

Well of course it is! I was exagerating to illustrate the point that's it's silly to complain about other cultures being integrated into our own!

That's my point exactly. People are seeing what they want to see to suit their own points. Nobody is talking about not allowing the integration of other cultures but rather the integration to an extent that we have no culture of our own which I think we're entitled to. Name me one thing other than the Irish language that remains of our celtic culture.

That's the point I was trying to make when I mentioned other European countries. Yes they enjoy American cultural influence but not at the expense of their own. Our culture is dramatically more diluted by Anglo-American culture than any other country in the world.

Lawliet

MyKeyG wrote: »

So where does your 'who cares' comment fit into all of this?

I must have this at least three times already, but here it is again: the 'who's cares' comment was directed solely at electrictrad's complaints about Ireland having so many English American shops. I apologise for not making that clearer the first time, but I think I've repeated what I meant enough times so that there shouldn't be any confusion.

MyKeyG wrote: »

The same could be said of her. She seems to me one of a few people who see what they want to see in others posts.

If you feel I misunderstood any of your posts feel free to correct me. But until then your statement just screams people in glass house syndrome.

I understand that but he did include France. It's on that point I chose to show his reasoning was at fault. My ultimate point is that while these countries may indulge in American culture they DO NOT do so at the expense of their own.

I believe members of these countries themselves might disagree with you there; I've heard of Italians complaining about proper Italian restaurants are being phased out in favour of American style fast food joints, and expensive Italian fashion is losing out to cheaper American clothes. As for Germany that's one of the most Americanised countries in the world. Which is understandable given their history -patriotism and cultural pride is pretty frowned upon.
I've never been to France myself but it sounds like more of an exception than the rule in this case.

Are you trying to say that leaving cert level equips an individual with the required command over a language to live and work abroad? The LC language curriculum is basic at best. In fact my college required me to take an advanced French course before sending me there.

Well no, I wouldn't say that since I've never studied a European language at leaving cert. I just know several people that chose to do a certain European language because they were interested in travelling there.

European language at LC level is about as useful as tits on a bull.

So why then would Irish at LC level be any more useful?

MyKeyG wrote: »

Name me one thing other than the Irish language that remains of our celtic culture.

What about all the tombs? The all the dolemens and Newgrange? Some pretty impressive architectural work there.

MyKeyG

Lawliet wrote: »

I must have this at least three times already, but here it is again: the 'who's cares' comment was directed solely at electrictrad's complaints about Ireland having so many English American shops. I apologise for not making that clearer the first time, but I think I've repeated what I meant enough times so that there shouldn't be any confusion.

And I'm saying that's not the point he was making, I said that already aswell!!! There is nothing wrong with all these shops and businesses. The point is that in this day in age it's all that defines us.

I believe members of these countries themselves might disagree with you there; I've heard of Italians complaining about proper Italian restaurants are being phased out in favour of American style fast food joints, and expensive Italian fashion is losing out to cheaper American clothes. As for Germany that's one of the most Americanised countries in the world. Which is understandable given their history -patriotism and cultural pride is pretty frowned upon.
I've never been to France myself but it sounds like more of an exception than the rule in this case.

At the very least they'll have their language!!! That's the point. I asked already but you refused to answer. What have we got left of our culture besides our language?

So why then would Irish at LC level be any more useful?

There you go again. I didn't say that, in fact I made my point very clear. My question is why would it be any LESS useful?

Lawliet

MyKeyG wrote: »

And I'm saying that's not the point he was making, I said that already aswell!!!

I don't understand why you keep brining it up so, since the poster hasn't been back to re-clarify what they did or didn't mean by bring up that point we're just arguing in circles.

At the very least they'll have their language!!! That's the point. I asked already but you refused to answer. What have we got left of our culture besides our language?

That's because it's there first language and it's used by everyone every day, Irish isn't. It hasn't been for a long time and it's not going to be any time soon. Also look again, I did answer you, I mentioned that we still have the dolmens and megalithic tombs like Newgrange.

There you go again. I didn't say that, in fact I made my point very clear. My question is why would it be any LESS useful?

To be fair I asked my question first, if teaching languages at leaving cert level is so ineffectual then why insist that Irish be part of it?

sock puppet

MyKeyG wrote: »

Our culture is dramatically more diluted by Anglo-American culture than any other country in the world.

You've obviously never been in a room with an Australian for 5 seconds.

Insect Overlord

Lawliet wrote: »

What about all the tombs? The all the dolemens and Newgrange? Some pretty impressive architectural work there.

Those are indeed magnificent relics of Neolithic architecture.

They are not, however, in any way relevant to the question of Celtic culture surviving into modernity. The practice of erecting such monuments has been extinct for many centuries.

MyKeyG

sock puppet wrote: »

You've obviously never been in a room with an Australian for 5 seconds.

You mean an individual from a country whose mere existence is the representation of how a foreign influnce can all but eliminate a centuries old native culture. Thanks for proving my point buddy.

sock puppet

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Those are indeed magnificent relics of Neolithic architecture.

They are not, however, in any way relevant to the question of Celtic culture surviving into modernity. The practice of erecting such monuments has been extinct for many centuries.

Are we really lamenting the loss of our culture from the pre-classical era?

edit:

MyKeyG wrote: »

You mean an individual from a country whose mere existence is the representation of how a foreign influnce can all but eliminate a centuries old native culture. Thanks for proving my point buddy.

Just pointing out that the typical Irish attitude of "only in Ireland..." is wrong.

Insect Overlord

sock puppet wrote: »

Are we really lamenting the loss of our culture from the pre-classical era?

Nope, I wouldn't lament the loss of anything from the pre-historic era. I was just pointing out the flaw in Lawliet's example. Sure, the tombs remain from that era. However, that culture has been lost for so long that bemoaning its loss would be futile. The tombs themselves have survived until now. The practice of creating them is long gone. Better examples that she could have used might be the playing of the harp, amhránaíocht ar an sean-nós or Irish dancing.

MyKeyG

sock puppet wrote: »

Are we really lamenting the loss of our culture from the pre-classical era?

No people are using it to prove that they are evidence of our culture, he was simply refuting that, you sort of twisted the point there.

Just pointing out that the typical Irish attitude of "only in Ireland..." is wrong.

Yes but you could have used a better example. Of all the English speaking cultures in the world Ireland is the only one that was assimilated rather than colonised. Your average Australian does not represent the native culture of Australia, that's what we're discussing here.

MyKeyG

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Better examples that she could have used might be the playing of the harp, amhránaíocht ar an sean-nós or Irish dancing.

I don't see them as being in danger of ultimate demise since they enjoy world wide popularity.

revz

Just throwing in my 2c, as my opinion on this was formed from personal experience in school.
I went to a small Dublin school (~23 people sat the leaving cert in my year). I didn't do Irish as I only moved back here when I was 12.
There was 20 people who did Irish in my year. 19 of them sat their Irish leaving cert. 1 of my friends hated it so much he didn't sit his papers despite being advised to even do foundation; he didn't need it anyway as he got the course he wanted in a non-NUI/Irish requiring college.

Of the 19 that did do it, not a single person did Higher level. The majority did ordinary, with some doing foundation.
I, on the other hand, was exempt and so was lucky enough to be able to do business studies instead of it, in a class with around 3-4 other students, and I did quite well in it (in higher level).
It's quite unfair that the students in my year who had to do Irish were at a serious disadvantage to me in the points race as they were stuck with an ordinary level subject. I'm sure 90%+ of them would've picked a different subject if they had the choice between any of the other leaving cert subjects and Irish.

I have nothing against the Irish language, I have quite an interest in languages and love French, and was taught it in primary school in a very well planned way. It seems to me Irish should be taught differently up until the age of 15-16 at the Junior cert, and then the student should be able to choose. If it is taught in a more approachable way in the early years then their should still be an interest in it when it comes to LC.

Insect Overlord

MyKeyG wrote: »

I don't see them as being in danger of ultimate demise since they enjoy world wide popularity.

That was not the question you originally asked.

MyKeyG wrote: »

Name me one thing other than the Irish language that remains of our celtic culture.

jumpguy

MyKeyG wrote: »

I take your point but it is irrelevant to my statemet. I'm not discussing Irish language being forced on people, that's the main thread.

Grand, the last paragraph of that post wasn't directly in response to you, it was more a speculation on the point in general. The first two are directly relevant to your statement.

The post you quoted was in response to an individual who claims nobody cares what happens to the Irish language altogether which I disagree with. I find your post about the French not restricting American influence amazing since I've lived there and they do their utmost to ensure American culture does not interfere with their own.

There is no law in France banning American culture. French tastes do not suit American culture, and they prefer their own French culture.

I think learning a language is a practical exercise. Maths, Science, History, Geography etc are facts that are learned. To command a language at any level is an academic achievement.

Indeed it is a worthwhile academic achievement. I would disagree to an extent about the "facts" distinction you make but that's irrelevant.

I'm very proud to say I speak Irish and French fluently. So therein lies my point. What happens to language in the curriculum altogether? Will the same people who refuse to learn Irish decide to learn a European language?

Your first question doesn't make sense, but I think you mean what happens to languages at LC level if Irish is made optional. At the moment, Irish is the only language you HAVE to study. Otherwise, you've a wide range of choice, French, German, Spanish, tonnes of European languages really, even Japanese. Perhaps if they made it so you would have study 2 languages, but they can be any languages of your choice, including Irish?

I don't really "refuse" to learn Irish, I just don't like learning it (and I'm awful at it), I can't really refuse to since I need it to get into college. However, I also learn German, and in 5 years, my German is now far superior to my Irish. This can be blamed on how Irish is thought though, I'm sure I'd enjoy it a lot more if I actually knew basic grammar and verbs. I plan on getting my German into fluency in college or after, and then learning French after I get my German into fluency. I would like to live and work on the continent for a few years at some point in my life. And yet I'm still in favour of Irish being optional, so that's your answer to that. As for Irish, perhaps some day, but atm I'm more into learning languages so I can communicate, rather than to maintain a nearly-lost part of culture (note I said part of culture, Gaelic culture as a whole isn't in that a bad of a situation with the GAA, Irish dancing, Irish music, etc).

MyKeyG

jumpguy wrote: »

There is no law in France banning American culture. French tastes do not suit American culture, and they prefer their own French culture.

Once more and for the last time my point has nothing to do with American culture being banned or abhorred. My point pure and simple is that these nations do not integrate foreign cultures to the extent that it dilutes their own culture to the point that they have little left.

Your first question doesn't make sense, but I think you mean what happens to languages at LC level if Irish is made optional. At the moment, Irish is the only language you HAVE to study. Otherwise, you've a wide range of choice, French, German, Spanish, tonnes of European languages really, even Japanese. Perhaps if they made it so you would have study 2 languages, but they can be any languages of your choice, including Irish?

Fair enough I'll have to assume it's changed in ten years. In my day you had to have at least a C in Lower level Maths and a pass in at least one European language to qualify for University (not RTC's) so my point is probably moot on that score.

MyKeyG

Insect Overlord wrote: »

That was not the question you originally asked.

Fair point but do you see trad in this day in age as encompassing the same spirit as before? You couldn't go a fortnight without some fleadh going on somewhere. By the way 'amhránaíocht ar an sean-nós' is an ironic suggestion for alternatives to the 'Irish language' .

Insect Overlord

MyKeyG wrote: »

Once more and for the last time my point has nothing to do with American culture being banned or abhorred. My point pure and simple is that these nations do not integrate foreign cultures to the extent that it dilutes their own culture to the point that they have little left.

There was massive shift away from "traditional" Irish culture across throughout the 1800s and the early 20th Century, long before American popular culture (as typified by MTV) exploded into Europe in the last few decades.

MyKeyG wrote: »

By the way 'amhránaíocht ar an sean-nós' is an ironic suggestion for alternatives to the 'Irish language' .

I don't see the irony. Could you please explain?

sock puppet

MyKeyG wrote: »

My point pure and simple is that these nations do not integrate foreign cultures to the extent that it dilutes their own culture to the point that they have little left.

What's French culture though and what defines foreign? The French government effectively destroyed an entire language. But would you consider it foreign or French?

Lawliet

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Those are indeed magnificent relics of Neolithic architecture.

They are not, however, in any way relevant to the question of Celtic culture surviving into modernity. The practice of erecting such monuments has been extinct for many centuries.

Implying that appreciation of art isn't in itself a way of keeping aspects of a culture alive. If anything the opposite is true; I can't think of a single example where the art and architecture of a society has been outlived by the language, classic example (excuse the pun) ancient Rome. When most people think of Rome they'd never think of Latin, before thinking of the Colosseum. Ancient Rome brought about some of the most ground breaking and iconic architecture in history, and that's helped it stay alive in people's consciousness for so long.

Insect Overlord

Lawliet wrote: »

Implying that appreciation of art isn't in itself a way of keeping aspects of a culture alive. If anything the opposite is true; I can't think of a single example where the art and architecture of a society has been outlived by the language, classic example (excuse the pun) ancient Rome. When most people think of Rome they'd never think of Latin, before thinking of the Colosseum. Ancient Rome brought about some of the most ground breaking and iconic architecture in history, and that's helped it stay alive in people's consciousness for so long.

Yes, but that awareness and appreciation can be cultivated in the History curriculum. They're so far removed from the language curricula that their mention in this thread is neither accurate nor relevant.