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Mortgage Arrears Problem in Ireland.

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    #362
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    I'll just class myself as an 18yr old with no dependants for this......

    37.5hr week @min wage €287 gross
    less
    travel to work € 60
    rent a room € 65
    motor tax/insurance € 30
    tv licence/phone/broadband € 20
    food € 50

    left to save for house € 62.00 x 52 weeks = € 3224.00
    x 10 years = €32240

    Please bear in mind I haven't taken tax, prsi or usc from income. Also I am 18 and have no qualifications other than leaving cert so probability is I will be on or near min wage for a very long time. How much is a house realistically gonna cost me? 20 or 30 yrs of wearing the same clothes as i'm saving????
    It sounds to me like a combination of:

    a) single people on the minimum wage and no qualifications can't necessarily expect to be able to buy house alone (maximum potential mortgage of say €200 per month)
    b) property prices are still far too high


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    #363
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Welease wrote: »
    20 year mortgages could be converted into 50-100 year mortgages which would drastically lower the monthly payments for customers who wished to avail.. .
    There were very, very few 20 year mortgages issued in the last 10 years, and 50 or 100 year mortgages would effectively be interest-only mortgages - you'd be surprised how little you ease the burden by going from 30 to 50 years, and from there to interest only.


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    #364
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    [QUOTEIf you are working a min wage job then you should not even be contemplating purchasing a house.[/QUOTE]



    because everybody has had their houses repossessed and has been advised to rent. So now the cost of renting has gone up significantly and i've read all the books as advised and am waiting for that time to buy "At the realistic price"

    By the way.......why shouldn't I buy??? Is someone on minumum wage a different class or something who doesn't deserve the same homebuying oportunities as others?

    If you say it's because I can't afford too then you really are copping out on your previous comments of houses are, at present, way overpriced!


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    #365
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    By the way.......why shouldn't I buy??? Is someone on minumum wage a different class or something who doesn't deserve the same homebuying oportunities as others?
    What do you mean "deserve"? You dont "deserve a home buying opportunity", you can either afford it or you cant. If you cant, you rent until you can. And if you still cant, then you dont get to buy a house, ever.

    Its really not rocket science.


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    #366
    jester77
    Registered Users Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    I'll just class myself as an 18yr old with no dependants for this......

    37.5hr week @min wage €287 gross
    less
    travel to work € 60
    rent a room € 65
    motor tax/insurance € 30
    tv licence/phone/broadband € 20
    food € 50

    left to save for house € 62.00 x 52 weeks = € 3224.00
    x 10 years = €32240

    Please bear in mind I haven't taken tax, prsi or usc from income. Also I am 18 and have no qualifications other than leaving cert so probability is I will be on or near min wage for a very long time. How much is a house realistically gonna cost me? 20 or 30 yrs of wearing the same clothes as i'm saving????

    I'm not having a go at you but this is mentality that has people in the situation that they are in. Too many people think they are entitled to a house regardless of what their income is. Unfortunately that is not how life works, I would love to have an Aston Martin outside but I'm realistic enough to know I can't afford one. Why would you even want to think about a house at 18? You are young, will probably moved around a lot in the next 10 years, have lots of time to develop your career skills and move up the career ladder in that time. Live life for the next 10 years, they are the best years of your life. Starting thinking about a house in your late 20's.

    If a couple have a dual income of ~4k, then they could easily save 1.5k a month. After 10 years that is 180k cash and with smart investing they could easily have well over 200k. Enough to get a very comfortable mortgage or even buy a house outright.


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    #367
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    because everybody has had their houses repossessed and has been advised to rent. So now the cost of renting has gone up significantly and i've read all the books as advised and am waiting for that time to buy "At the realistic price"
    Rents are falling. The recent DAFT report indicated something like a .6% increase in asking rents - not agreed rents. Landlords can ask as much as they like, but the way the economy is, they are going to take what they can get. There are still over 300,000 empty properties in Ireland - wait until they come on the market...
    westendgirlie wrote: »
    By the way.......why shouldn't I buy??? Is someone on minumum wage a different class or something who doesn't deserve the same homebuying oportunities as others?
    Seriously, is this a joke? I want a private jet. I can;t afford it, so I can't have it. Buying a house is the exact same. Please tell me you can see that? When I finished college, I wanted a house, but I couldn't afford it, so I couldn't have it. Same thing.
    westendgirlie wrote: »
    If you say it's because I can't afford too then you really are copping out on your previous comments of houses are, at present, way overpriced!
    Prices are too high for sure. But when prices are 'fair' there will still be people who cannot afford to buy (although our crash will be so big, some places will be practically given away).

    When was there ever a time in this country when people working in a minimum wage job (e.g. McDonalds burger jockey) could buy a house on their own?


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    #368
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    CiaranC wrote: »
    What do you mean "deserve"? You dont "deserve a home buying opportunity", you can either afford it or you cant. If you cant, you rent until you can.

    Its really not rocket science.

    No worries Ciaran while you're trotting around on your high horse i'll just collect the ****e from behind you and remember my place. :rolleyes:

    All other times, YES! I do DESERVE the same opportunities as anyone else. As long as I get up in the morning, go to work & pay into the system I and am entitled to feel that i DERSERVE the same treatment and OPPORTUNITIES as everyone else who gets up in the morning, goes to work and pays into the system.

    The class divide that's appearing on hear is unreal! Are you sure you're not Royalists?


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    #369
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    [QUOTEIf you are working a min wage job then you should not even be contemplating purchasing a house.



    because everybody has had their houses repossessed and has been advised to rent. So now the cost of renting has gone up significantly and i've read all the books as advised and am waiting for that time to buy "At the realistic price"

    By the way.......why shouldn't I buy??? Is someone on minumum wage a different class or something who doesn't deserve the same homebuying oportunities as others?

    If you say it's because I can't afford too then you really are copping out on your previous comments of houses are, at present, way overpriced![/QUOTE]

    Even if house prices halved, I wouldn't recommend that a person on min wage purchase a house. Owning a house is not a right, it is a luxury. The same goes for owning a car, which is included in your budget. You are living in dreamland, I'm afraid.


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    #370
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    No worries Ciaran while you're trotting around on your high horse i'll just collect the ****e from behind you and remember my place. :rolleyes:

    All other times, YES! I do DESERVE the same opportunities as anyone else. As long as I get up in the morning, go to work & pay into the system I and am entitled to feel that i DERSERVE the same treatment and OPPORTUNITIES as everyone else who gets up in the morning, goes to work and pays into the system.

    The class divide that's appearing on hear is unreal! Are you sure you're not Royalists?
    But you DO have the same opportunity. You turn up with the cash and you can buy the house. Simple.

    Or, if you want more money, get an education and get a better job, like other people do. You can't make less effort than other people and expect to get the same result, unless you want to live in a communist heaven like North Korea.


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    #371
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    dolphin city wrote: »
    because you must read the small print in the mortgage agreement.

    True so it is also aggreed on the principal of sustained employment and at a certain rate...which regardless of in the contract is a condition of the mortgage. So if someone losses their job they are no longer able to pay. All I am saying is that the banks should pay for their part in this aswell


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    #372
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Rents are falling. The recent DAFT report indicated something like a .6% increase in asking rents - not agreed rents. Landlords can ask as much as they like, but the way the economy is, they are going to take what they can get. There are still over 300,000 empty properties in Ireland - wait until they come on the market...
    Seriously, is this a joke? I want a private jet. I can;t afford it, so I can't have it. Buying a house is the exact same. Please tell me you can see that? When I finished college, I wanted a house, but I couldn't afford it, so I couldn't have it. Same thing.

    Prices are too high for sure. But when prices are 'fair' there will still be people who cannot afford to buy (although our crash will be so big, some places will be practically given away).

    When was there ever a time in this country when people working in a minimum wage job (e.g. McDonalds burger jockey) could buy a house on their own?

    I understand what you are saying Monty but it does nothing for the aspirations of our youth does it? Sadly this country will always be "the have's" and the ever increasing number "the have nots"

    May I ask you and the others who are waiting for the right moment to buy for cash just one question......... Do you have any compassion for the people who you intend to buy off. Knowing you will be paying a lot less than what they will still owe?


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    #373
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    fliball123 wrote: »
    True so it is also aggreed on the principal of sustained employment and at a certain rate...
    No, it's not. If you win the lottery and retire, you can keep paying the mortgage. The mortgage is agreed at a single point in time - it has nothing to do with what happens in future, other than that if you stop repaying you have a problem.


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    #374
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    But you DO have the same opportunity. You turn up with the cash and you can buy the house. Simple.

    Or, if you want more money, get an education and get a better job, like other people do. You can't make less effort than other people and expect to get the same result, unless you want to live in a communist heaven like North Korea.

    Read the original scenario........ in 10 yrs I have 36 grand.

    And to put this into realistic context...... I have an education. i was made redundant. After 18 months I got back into the workforce but at a greatly reduced income. 6 months later I had to take a paycut again. It is a good job it is also a sign of the times we are now in. Remarks like "get a better job" don't cut the mustard anymore


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    #375
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    May I ask you and the others who are waiting for the right moment to buy for cash just one question......... Do you have any compassion for the people who you intend to buy off. Knowing you will be paying a lot less than what they will still owe?
    Yes and no. I wouldn't feel bad about it, but obviously you don't want to see people struggling. In my ideal world, those people would have listened to the people warning about the bubble, and the bubble would not have gotten out of control. But we don't live in an ideal world, sadly. All I can do is look after myself and try to help whatever people will listen to me (I'd like to think I prevented a few people from buying, but most went ahead and did it anyway, regardless of what I was telling them :(). Hence I still tell anybody who says they are thinking of buying that I think prices will fall for 5 more years at least.


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    #376
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    No worries Ciaran while you're trotting around on your high horse i'll just collect the ****e from behind you and remember my place. :rolleyes:

    All other times, YES! I do DESERVE the same opportunities as anyone else. As long as I get up in the morning, go to work & pay into the system I and am entitled to feel that i DERSERVE the same treatment and OPPORTUNITIES as everyone else who gets up in the morning, goes to work and pays into the system.

    The class divide that's appearing on hear is unreal! Are you sure you're not Royalists?
    Um, you actually have better opportunities to buy in todays market than you did at the height of the bubble. Study, work hard, get a decent income, save and buy. Who exactly is denying you this "opportunity"?

    And lay off the class divide nonsense, Im from Tallaght and living in rented accommodation in D8, hardly lord snooty.


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    #377
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    Read the original scenario........ in 10 yrs I have 36 grand.

    And to put this into realistic context...... I have an education. i was made redundant. After 18 months I got back into the workforce but at a greatly reduced income. 6 months later I had to take a paycut again. It is a good job it is also a sign of the times we are now in. Remarks like "get a better job" don't cut the mustard anymore
    So. like everywhere else in the world (outside North Korea), if you can't pay for something, you just can't have it. This is nothing new.

    Sorry to hear about your employment woes - I know it's not easy.


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    #378
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    Even if house prices halved, I wouldn't recommend that a person on min wage purchase a house. Owning a house is not a right, it is a luxury. The same goes for owning a car, which is included in your budget. You are living in dreamland, I'm afraid.[/QUOTE]

    Do you know this part of the country???? It's called the North West. If I am to get to work I have to have my own transport. A necessity NOT luxury! Or I could catch a bus at 5pm on a Friday which returns to where I live at 10am the following Friday :mad:


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    #379
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    No, it's not. If you win the lottery and retire, you can keep paying the mortgage. The mortgage is agreed at a single point in time - it has nothing to do with what happens in future, other than that if you stop repaying you have a problem.

    and what is that problem??? The fact still not borne out here is that if we have a wave of defaults which will happen if a temporary solution is not found the tax payer will foot the bill anyway...


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    #380
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    Read the original scenario........ in 10 yrs I have 36 grand.

    And to put this into realistic context...... I have an education. i was made redundant. After 18 months I got back into the workforce but at a greatly reduced income. 6 months later I had to take a paycut again. It is a good job it is also a sign of the times we are now in. Remarks like "get a better job" don't cut the mustard anymore
    Can you explain why you think you should still have the right to own your own home under such situations? Do you have any idea how the world works? Are you actually the 18 year old girl in your example?


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    #381
    Welease
    Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    There were very, very few 20 year mortgages issued in the last 10 years, and 50 or 100 year mortgages would effectively be interest-only mortgages - you'd be surprised how little you ease the burden by going from 30 to 50 years, and from there to interest only.

    I think you are missing the point :)

    The point is not the specific of one example (although I disagree that the amount wouldn't change significantly.. changing from a 20 year to 35 year mortgage on the AIB calc drops the payments on a 230K mortgage from €1306 to €918 per month...)

    but anyway.. :)

    The point is.. for the institutions we now own (or will own), we can force a more socially positive business model rather than the profits at all costs model currently in existance...


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    #382
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    Do you know this part of the country???? It's called the North West. If I am to get to work I have to have my own transport. A necessity NOT luxury! Or I could catch a bus at 5pm on a Friday which returns to where I live at 10am the following Friday :mad:
    Well, you'd be the first into work and last to leave every day - a sure way to promotion :)

    Yeah, public transport is poor in Ireland and in some places you need a car (or car share) or you just can't work.


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    #383
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Welease wrote: »
    I think you are missing the point :)

    The point is not the specific of one example (although I disagree that the amount wouldn't change significantly.. changing from a 20 year to 35 year mortgage on the AIB calc drops the payments on a 230K mortgage from €1306 to €918 per month...)
    Yes, that is a big difference. Can you tell me the difference between 35 years and interest only? Obviously a 50 or 100 year mortgage would cost more again than interest only.
    Welease wrote: »
    The point is.. for the institutions we now own (or will own), we can force a more socially positive business model rather than the profits at all costs model currently in existance...
    Well we had that model before - that was what building societies were for, remember? And the problem with writing off the banks as profitable businesses is that
    a) we will never see any return from the billions pumped in and
    b) they won't be run at maximum efficiency - can you imagine a bank run by FÁS? :)


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    #384
    jpb1974
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭jpb1974


    @CiaranC

    Why not make some form of positive contribution to this thread instead of constantly biting at people's heels.

    A young lady has joined this thread and asked a simple and polite question and I don't believe she needs to be treated the way you are treating her.


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    #385
    dolphin city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭dolphin city


    jpb1974 wrote: »
    To start with I'd like to say that I've never claimed a penny in welfare my entire life. I went straight from school to Uni and from Uni into the workplace where I've been ever since.

    What I think I am entitled to is in the event that I lose my job and have problems making payments is a chance to find a job, get back earning and get back paying my mortgage.

    If after an agreed period I am still struggling then handing back the house is acceptable, but I would like the chance to get back out there working should I find myself unemployed.

    I don't think this is an unreasonable request at all.

    so what makes you any different than anyone else in the country - whether the own a house or rent. Are you under the impression that if you rent, you are somehow getting some extra "benefit" from the State?

    don't understand your logic at all.


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    #386
    dolphin city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭dolphin city


    th3 s1aught3r wrote: »
    I am sick of people saying that they are now wonderful and insightlful just becasue they didnt buy a house at inflated prices back then
    They go on about how they had to listen to others telling them rental was a 'waste of money' and to 'get on the ladder asap'
    They dont seem to realise they are now just as annoying as those others with this I TOLD YOU SO crap

    well people DID try to tell people it was unrealistic but they didn't want to listen, so a little bit of karma goes a long way.


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    #387
    jpb1974
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭jpb1974


    don't understand your logic at all.

    What exactly don't you understand?


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    #388
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,406 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    Do you know this part of the country???? It's called the North West. If I am to get to work I have to have my own transport. A necessity NOT luxury! Or I could catch a bus at 5pm on a Friday which returns to where I live at 10am the following Friday :mad:
    It's your choice to live in an area ill serviced by public transport.
    Nobody is forcing you to live in the sticks.


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    #389
    dolphin city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭dolphin city


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    No worries Ciaran while you're trotting around on your high horse i'll just collect the ****e from behind you and remember my place. :rolleyes:

    All other times, YES! I do DESERVE the same opportunities as anyone else. As long as I get up in the morning, go to work & pay into the system I and am entitled to feel that i DERSERVE the same treatment and OPPORTUNITIES as everyone else who gets up in the morning, goes to work and pays into the system.

    The class divide that's appearing on hear is unreal! Are you sure you're not Royalists?

    are you serious? you think because you get out of bed in the morning that you are entitled to the same opportunities as everyone else. You have to EARN those opportunities - you are not automaticially entitled to them. If you cannot afford something you do not purchase it. simple.


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    #390
    Welease
    Registered Users Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Yes, that is a big difference. Can you tell me the difference between 35 years and interest only? Obviously a 50 or 100 year mortgage would cost more again than interest only.

    but anyway.. :)

    Well we had that model before - that was what building societies were for, remember? And the problem with writing off the banks as profitable businesses is that
    a) we will never see any return from the billions pumped in and
    b) they won't be run at maximum efficiency - can you imagine a bank run by FÁS? :)

    But it doesnt have to be one or the other.. Thats the flexibility we now have.. There are no short term fixes to the funding issues this country has, so there is no need to apply one strict model..

    A bank could take a progressive stance with those in financial trouble and allow extensions without penalities, AND continue to offer revenue generating scheme's for those who don't need to avail of those services..

    To my mind, it's better to extend services to those in the hope of over a longer period repaying the complete loan, rather than foreclose on a loan, firesale the asset at below market value, then come back to me the tax payer and ask for further funding to shore up the books. Everyone loses there.

    Agreed on the FAS version :) But I would attribute that to lack of accountability within sectors of the PS.. something that needs to be tackled across the board.


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    #391
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    dolphin city wrote: »
    well people DID try to tell people it was unrealistic but they didn't want to listen, so a little bit of karma goes a long way.

    People stating this are complete a$$es IMO for every person/analyst/gov official who said the bubble was unsustainable you had one saying the opposite...Obviously with about 500k people in neg equity about 1/6th of the population (including kids) got caught...but you just keep saying I told you so as if its a solution


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