Male emotion

cantdecide

Tricky one. I don’t know how this might be taken up but it has been niggling me.

Few would disagree that women are generally considered more emotional than men. I occasionally post on the Personal Issues forum, more often than not, unreg’d. I have observed that naturally, similar themes crop up time out of number. One of the most common themes for both men and women is ‘very lonely, can’t find someone special, tried everything, I’m at the end of my tether, why is it me that has to be always alone’.

My observation is that frequently, when a woman will post the above, all and sundry will reply with help and advice. An even mix of both male and female. Sometimes pages of help and support. I have always felt that a man could copy and paste that original post and there are tumbleweeds. Virtually male replies only. I have noticed that if male friends or family are having a rough time, it’s usually not women that lend the shoulder to cry on. This is not a generalisation. This is just my experience. I had a conversation with a friend recently where he claimed that men were much more emotional than women- “that’s why men write better love songs” he said. Another point is that virtually every knucklehead I know has never had problems getting women.

I ask this as someone who saw many male suicides where emotional trouble was a big factor. I ask as a perpetually single emotional bloke where women have always wanted to be ‘just friends’.

The question is (all but the final two I would put to both genders);


What is your attitude to emotional men?

RedXIV

I used to post alot in Personal Issues, and I kinda understand where you're coming from, there was a slight bias towards helping women over men, but to be fair, I wouldn't say it was a 50:50 split in the threads being created.

Personally, and I stress that just for me, I'm not overly comfortable with people in general being emotional. I much prefer the idea of casual banter and have always tried to deal with any problems life threw at me on my own. Not that its always worked like that but thats what I'm like, which on reflection, is alot like my dad, who I never saw get emotional (apart from being a big softy around his grandaughter).

I'm sure plenty will say that its far better to share problems etc but thats never been what I needed. And because of that, I don't know how to deal with it in others. I don't disapprove but I have to admit it makes me uncomfortable but thats probably my own issue

PhysiologyRocks

I'm female, and I couldn't honestly tick any of the boxes above.

I believe there are times when emotion is appropriate and times when it is not, for both men and women.

I mean, if a patient is telling me a sad story, it would be unprofessional of me to burst into tears, regardless of my gender.

At the funeral of a friend or family member, I have no problem with anybody crying.

I have to say, misplaced emotional outbursts (e.g. over a pair of shoes or something - and I have seen the like from adults) don't elicit much sympathy/empathy from me, but genuine ones are understandable.

I'm not the type to cry simply because the mood suits, and I will admit that I may not be the most understanding of it (all things being equal, no recent life-changing events), but gender doesn't really come into it.

cantdecide

I'm not really talking about emotional behaviour or outbursts or extremes of any kind, PR. I'm more about men with a emotional/ sensitive/ empathetic character or disposition in day to day life. Is it regarded as a fault or sign of weakness? Does society still demand that men be more robotic and emotionless?

In lots of ways, I'm thinking about things like male suicide. I'm acutely aware that men generally don't have much in the way of support on an interpersonal level. I have often observed that the fundamental difference between male and female relationships and friendships is that if the woman is in need, she has the support of her female friends without question. If a male friend of that group was in a similar emotional position for whatever reason, he will be largely on his own. I gave the example too of the "bias" toward helping females with emotional problems and men have to fend for themeselves, even of the 'net!

Women have greater kamaraderie, emotionally. Men convene as individuals. In my experience, neither gender does much to change the status quo and it remains taboo.

If there are poll options missing, PR, I'd like to hear what they should be.

Wolfe Tone

Take for example the film Marley and Me, very sad. If a woman cried, she would get a comforting arm, a guy would get a strange look. Thats just the way it is.

Ickle Magoo

A strange look from whom though?

IME men are often their own worst enemy when it comes to puting up barriers to emotion or emotional expression. I think everyone should have enough emotional maturity and cop-on to explore why they feel the way they do about issues but that doesn't necessarily translate as either gender having carte blanch to bawl their eyes out at the drop of a hat.

That said, more HAS to be done to support men in lieu of them taking the initiative to look after themselves or each other because the lack of emotional support or legislative protections in various aspects of life/law are lop-sided to the point of being damaging to men's mental health atm.

PhysiologyRocks

Cantdecide, I'm just not sure women are generally of a more emotional disposition than men. 'Male emotion' means the same thing to me as 'female emotion'.

Not every woman has the same kind of friendships as other women. Not every man has the same kind of friendships as other men.

Suicide and the like boils down to more than simply emotions and relationships.

The only method by which I can make any form of judgment is emotional behaviour.

As a result, everything I said in my last post stands. The only poll option I would happily tick is "I feel about them exactly as I feel about emotional women".

donfers

Is this thread about feeling emotion or displaying emotion for all and sundry to see?

I consider myself fully in tune with my emotions but if i feel sad or happy about something I won't burst into tears or do cartwheels so that everyone can see how emotional I am.

Fair enough, if something is affecting you, it's good to have the support of your nearest and dearest and if you feel the need to share then hopefully you'll be able to do that but overt displays of emotion in front of random strangers and I have to say women are lot guiltier than men for this make me feel very uncomfortable

at work I must have seen a female work colleague break down 7 or 8 times while I've been there and I've never seen a man do it and usually it's just a work colleague and not a woman I know very well and it just makes the whole atmosphere very awkward and difficult as I don't know what to say or if I should comfort her etc., so no matter how trendy or healthy it supposedly is to display emotion, there's a lot to be said for being in control of your emotions too and displaying or revealing emotions to those who can support you best

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

A strange look from whom though?

IME men are often their own worst enemy when it comes to puting up barriers to emotion or emotional expression. I think everyone should have enough emotional maturity and cop-on to explore why they feel the way they do about issues but that doesn't necessarily translate as either gender having carte blanch to bawl their eyes out at the drop of a hat.

That said, more HAS to be done to support men in lieu of them taking the initiative to look after themselves or each other because the lack of emotional support or legislative protections in various aspects of life/law are lop-sided to the point of being damaging to men's mental health atm.

A strange look from a lot of people, take this for instance was in a mixed group recently and where talking about that very film:

Girl: I was watching M and me recently with the boyfriend, good film but its sad, he was in tears at the end!
Cue everyone laughing, both genders. If she had have said she was in tears nothing negative would be said.

Turns out the lads dog he had his whole life had died a few months previously.

Ickle Magoo

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

If she had have said she was in tears nothing negative would be said.

That's quite a generalisation to make outside of the dynamics of specific group though - I've witnessed many a woman getting rolling eyes and being called pathetic for crying over something "silly"...in many cases women are viewed as over emotional and are regularly denigrated as such which in turn makes it even more difficult for men to express their emotions in what is deemed to be outside of "acceptable" circumstances. It's become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

That's quite a generalisation to make outside of the dynamics of specific group though - I've witnessed many a woman getting rolling eyes and being called pathetic for crying over something "silly"...in many cases women are viewed as over emotional and are regularly denigrated as such which in turn makes it even more difficult for men to express their emotions in what is deemed to be outside of "acceptable" circumstances. It's become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I think it is an accurate one, can you honestly say they would both get the same reaction? Of course not, women are expected to be more emotional and what not(thats the reality).


Heres a question for everyone, you are outside a cinema and see a man hugging a sobbing woman. Whats your reaction? Now reverse the roles, same reaction? Fair play if they are the same, but for the majority I doubt it is.

Ickle Magoo

Well, now you've changed the scenario to add weight to your argument. In some groups of friends - mine included - anyone crying over a film gets ribbed, regardless of gender.

However, IME criticism of male shows of emotion have been most commonly expressed from other men - why do men deem it so inappropriate to show their emotions? You've just suggested that women are "expected" to be more emotional - there is no end of comments and cracks about women on their period being emotional and showing emotion - whether that be bawling with tears or anger! This attitude does as much to perpetuate the myth that men can't and shouldn't show emotion or that being emotional is a feminine trait.

I've often hugged and been a shoulder to cry on for both sexes, how often have I seen a man who was a shoulder to cry on for his mates? Tbh, I can't actually think of one, yet some of the guys I know have tremendous EQ and in a one-to-one situation with a female friend or the women in their lives aren't aren't afraid of expressing it. That's something that men have to look at in themselves and male peers have to look at with each other.

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Well, now you've changed the scenario to add weight to your argument. In some groups of friends - mine included - anyone crying over a film gets ribbed, regardless of gender.

I should have been clearer, it wasnt a group of mates. No one knew each other, the fellas gf went pretty mad actually.

However, IME criticism of male shows of emotion have been most commonly expressed from other men - why do men deem it so inappropriate to show their emotions? You've just suggested that women are "expected" to be more emotional - there is no end of comments and cracks about women on their period being emotional and showing emotion - whether that be bawling with tears or anger! This attitude does as much to perpetuate the myth that men can't and shouldn't show emotion or that being emotional is a feminine trait.

Well the general perception is that it is, men are supposed to be restrained, big boys don't cry and what not. Its a theory of mine that this is what has led to the common devotion of lads to their mothers, the "Irish mammy" As in when you are young or a teenager you wouldn't have to put an act on around your mother, whereas you would put the tough guy act on around your mates. And when you are even younger you run around pretending to be a cowboy, or a soldier, some tough figure. Seen as the perfect man is, or has been anyway, displayed as the big tough guy its only natural that a guy will want to be that, just like a girl would want to be the medias idea of a perfect woman and would feel almost obliged to at least try to be such. Of course seen as many men are conditioned to want that "perfect" woman its only logical that many women would be conditioned to want that "perfect" man. At the very leasts guys think thats what women want.


I agree men are hard on each other, I went to an all boys primary and secondary school, god forbid you cried for whatever reason, the slaggings would be endless. It would be circular too as the lads would be like "I better laugh so they dont think Im a wuss too!" Of course feel free to sh!t on that theory as its just that, something which I think having discussed this with a lot of people.

Oh, and another point, many feminists in legal cirlces have argued that the "reasonable man" test(ie would the reasonable man have done x, no, ok we will award damages to the guy suing him so) is unfair as women cannot live up to the characteristics of the reasonable man(some laid out in the 40s) which include certain things which would be considered male. Such as rationality, objectivity, intellect, prudence, courage, ability to be dispassionate or calm in time of crisis, ability to deal with principle and avoid the personal, things like them. The "reasonable man" possesses these traits. These feminists(I apologize I cant remember their names, they are quite famous apparently) have argued that it is not fair to submit a woman to the "reasonable man" test which of course implies that they don't agree that women can possess those traits, or at least to degree that men do or more importantly, should be expected to live up to it.
For those of us who like a cheap sexist joke(no offense meant of course ) one of the characteristics of the reasonable man is this: Drives “in as good a manner as a driver of skill, experience and care, who is sound in mind and limb, and who makes no errors of judgment, has good eyesight and hearing, and is free from any infirmity” – Nettleship v. Weston [1971] You can I am sure see the irony of feminists arguing against that! While the above is not really relevant I thought you would find it interesting.

I've often hugged and been a shoulder to cry on for both sexes, how often have I seen a man who was a shoulder to cry on for his mates? Tbh, I can't actually think of one, yet some of the guys I know have tremendous EQ and in a one-to-one situation with a female friend or the women in their lives aren't aren't afraid of expressing it. That's something that men have to look at in themselves and male peers have to look at with each other.

Yeah that makes sense, I touched on that with the mother thing, however, the general impression seems to be that women are more emotional, hence will have more empathy and understanding, rather than their seemingly emotionless male friends as its not seen as normal for lads to have the deep emotional chats. I for instance have no problem discussing stuff like that with women, whereas it would be harder saying it to a lad or listening to it from him as well, I have been conditioned not to expect that. I would be rather uncomfortable and would more probably pull out the "lets go for pints" line rather than the "come here and tell me about it" line, which of course isn't right, but its the truth.

Now having talked to a lot of girls they often seem surprised at such emotion in a man, after all the lads would all be trying to maintain high social standing and status among their mates(I don't think bawling in front of them makes one popular, I never tried it) and of course would naturally put such an act on in front of women too. And when they get closer then you have the aul opening up. "Deep down he is a sensitive soul"

Of course all of this mainly applies during teens and early twenties(of course your formulative years) before life batters down such facades(to a degree).


Just to be clear Im not blaming any gender or anything, I was attempting to demonstrate the double standard which exists over public displays of emotion with regard to gender. Just to illustrate that its not just men, I am sure many a mother has dried her sons tears and told him to cheer up and not let his friends see him crying.
Or take another example, you see someone shout abuse at a woman and she begins to cry, and then you see a man burst into tears as a result of the same thing, with the latter its a case of embarrassment on his behalf(look away, look away!)"wtf is wrong with him?" Rather than "you dick, leave the poor girl alone!"


Fundamentally I think deep down we are all pretty much the same, men and women, on an emotional level, what differs is societies expectations.

Wow, I wrote a fair bit there, anyway, thats the rambling thoughts of a 19yo on this, Im sure they may change as I get older.

Ickle Magoo

Strangers giving funny looks, that's just mean - as you've demonstrated you never know what's going on in peoples lives...

I won't shit on your, theory, thanks, that's not the purpose of my entering dialogue. I don't know anything about these feminists you speak of, they seem to be intent on doing anything but living up to their feminist labels - and I love a good sexist joke...emphasis on the good!

I agree with ye. In the playground even today you can still hear parents say the old "big boys don't cry" or "come on son, life is tough" along with the "boys don't hit girls" stuff, even when getting booted up and down by a girl...I'd say that sets the scene for growing up and the allowances girls and women are afforded in the freedom to express emotion.

Of course, it's a double edged sword as your "reasonable man" demonstrates, for some reason emotions are viewed as unreasonable and irrational parts of our being rather than inherent - though different people exploit that for their own ends. Behaving emotionally is automatically viewed as a negative, synonymous with hysterical and wild - and that attitude has to change before male shows or emotion, or indeed all shows of emotion, are accepted as forms of personal expression rather than embarrassing faux pas.

clouds

I think you've hit on something with the feminist thing. Feminists say that both men and women are shoved into these boxes which does no one any good. The tough guy, or the dolly bird. We end up suppressing a lot of our natural inclinations that way, without even knowing it, and wonder why something feels missing, or wrong.

Men obviously do have emotions, but they're shoved into the box where it's not manly to express them. I notice women get a similar reaction when they express anger, the're sneered at and called ballbreakers and the like. So sadness and anger and natural human emotions so no one should be looked down on for feeling or expressing them.

There's a theory that men bottle their emotions up til they explode in anger and violence. Doesn't do anyone any good on a societal or individual level.

Wolfe Tone

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Strangers giving funny looks, that's just mean - as you've demonstrated you never know what's going on in peoples lives...

I won't shit on your, theory, thanks, that's not the purpose of my entering dialogue. I don't know anything about these feminists you speak of, they seem to be intent on doing anything but living up to their feminist labels - and I love a good sexist joke...emphasis on the good!

I agree with ye. In the playground even today you can still hear parents say the old "big boys don't cry" or "come on son, life is tough" along with the "boys don't hit girls" stuff, even when getting booted up and down by a girl...I'd say that sets the scene for growing up and the allowances girls and women are afforded in the freedom to express emotion.

Of course, it's a double edged sword as your "reasonable man" demonstrates, for some reason emotions are viewed as unreasonable and irrational parts of our being rather than inherent - though different people exploit that for their own ends. Behaving emotionally is automatically viewed as a negative, synonymous with hysterical and wild - and that attitude has to change before male shows or emotion, or indeed all shows of emotion, are accepted as forms of personal expression rather than embarrassing faux pas.

Leslie Bender – A Lawyer’s Primer on Feminist Theory and Tort
Thats one of the feminists I was on about I think....



I wouldn't say it is always viewed negatively, as on the whole, for right or wrong, society seems to expect the hysterical or emotional woman, rather than man. I.e it is viewed as someway normal for women to do it, and not men. Obviously thats not fair on anyone but its pretty much true. Its a big circle really, and I cant see any way to break it.