Bedtime routine for 8yr old?

Fittle

I am losing my reason again tonight, with my 8yr old who just will not go to sleep unless I'm in bed myself.

Brief background, there's just the two of us in the house. I work f/t and have never been one to stay up very late anyway - so I'm usually in bed by ten-ish. His bedtime is around 9ish and he starts moaning from about 8.30 about the fact that he'll be upstairs on his own etc. I usually ignore him and put him to bed, end of.

He spends the next hour shouting down 'What time are you coming to bed mam, because I can't sleep'....Sometimes I ignore him, other times I let a roar for him to go to sleep. I often just go to bed anyway...he then thinks he's 'won' then and will doze off which drives me even more mad:mad: Other times, I'll stay downstairs (even though I'm exhausted!) on purpose, in the hope he'll fall asleep - never works.

Even on the rare nights when Id stay up later, he's still awake when I go up...his light is out, he'll have read a book (landing light is on) but it's like he is determined to stay awake until I go to bed.

I feel like I'm fighting a constant battle with this boy, who is otherwise, a great kid. Does well in school, is very social, loves sport, has loads of friends etc...this bedtime routine has me driven demented however...any ideas???

Morag

I would say send him to bed at 8pm. Some kids need an hours wind down and going to bed earlier makes a difference. Also an audio book or a cd of chill out music can help so that he doens't feel as alone. You can't let him dicate what you are doing like that and you need a break too.

Fittle

Thanks for that. I'm only home from work about 6.15 so bedtime at 8pm is a bit early, by the time we do homework and eat etc. I find by about 8.30 he's starting to wind down...he is usually quite tired going to bed at 9 to be honest but seems determined to stay awake once he puts the head down.

You're right that he's probably dictating to me - well, trying to and I do have to take responsibility for this situation of course. Midweek, I would often go to bed at the same time as him and just read a book (not tonight though!) and I suppose he has gotten used to the two of heading up the stairs together.

I don't think and audio tape would work, he loves reading and it I'm not sure listening to something would help at all.

He doesn't actually even feel alone - I leave the door open and he can hear the tv..he never says he's lonely or afraid..just that he can't actually relax until I'm in my room next door:(:(

Morag

Its something he will have to learn to do, mine where like that around the age of 4 -6 wanted me up stairs, I would fold washing or read until they dropped off but that was 7ish at night. These days they troop off up to bed not a bother by 9 and I just check and turn the lights out by 10.

astra2000

Hi I would advise you to set a bedtime for week days and stick to it 8.30 sounds about right for his age and you could allow him 15min with lights on, then as soon as its lights off he has to try and sleep, if he follows this routine tell him you will allow him to stay up later at the weekends maybe an extra 30mins or whatever suits. If he does not follow the routine during the week let him know his bedtime at the weekend will not be extended.
Stick with it he will adapt if you hold firm it will take time just make sure your will is stronger than his! I am sure you could do with an hour of peace at night time too:).

Fittle

I most certianly could Astra, thanks:)

See I do all that lights on for half an hour, then lights out and tuck him in etc...and within 5 minutes he's roaring 'Maaaaamm...what time are you coming up at coz I can't sleep.....' and this just continues until I go up myself. When I go to bed myself, he's asleep within 5 minutes!!!

Are there any legal sedatives for 8yr olds:D

metrovelvet

It sounds like seperation anxiety or maybe a sleep phobia. I was terrified of falling asleep as a child, but I would lie there awake for hours even after my mom went to bed.

Can you help him understand that it is a very important job you have to teach him how to go to sleep by himself and independantly. Sort of like advanced self soothing if you know what I mean. Tell him this is a really important thing that he has to learn how to do. It will take some time. And tell him you are never ever far away from him.

I dont know what it is about night time and being horizontal, but suddenly all your thoughts, your anxieties, fears and solitudes suddenly surround you like a nagging lake that wont let you sleep and the letting go becomes so hard.

astra2000

Its probably his little way of controling you! We have 3 kids and believe me its amazing the lengths they will go to to get their with own way. We have a fairly good routine at bed time but every so often it slips give them an inch and they take a mile:p. When I reach the end of my tether we give them a warning that bedtime will be earlier and there will be no waiting up at the weekends, usually they still ignore me and then we follow through with the threat and then they quickly fall back in line! I think if kids get consequences for their actions they are quicker to learn.
Its hard trying to do it all on your own and I am sure the last thing you want to be doing is constantly arguing with him over this, sit him down explain to him that he needs his sleep for his body and brain to develop properly, that you need less sleep and have things to do at night time and that things have to change. I have an 8yr old girl and I think he been the same age is old enough to understand some reasoning. Best of luck.

Fittle

He completely understands reasoning...I'm under no illusion that this is him trying to 'control' me (and of course, it's working to a point!).

Last night, it was after eleven when I went up and he was lying there, eyes wide open staring at the ceiling...I heard a big 'sigh' when he heard me locking the door etc downstairs...like he was thinking 'Now, finally I can go asleep!!'...

I do like the idea of teaching him that's its my job to teach him things, thanks metro - I'll try that tonight.

While I don't advocate actual sedatives , I was thinking of giving him something to help him relax and doze off naturally at bedtime, and he might get into the habit of it also? Has anyone tried any of those natural remedies on kids? I've seen stuff in the chemist...sleep rescue for kids or something???I know when he's sick, some of the cough mixtures knock him out but I don't think I'll be giving him a spoonful of cough mixture every night, just yet;)

liliq

Hi Fittle-

A few posters have mentioned separation anxiety- maybe when you're both in for the night and before your son goes to bed, you could go through the "locking up for the night" kind of steps?
In our house we have a house alarm that is connected to all the doors, so each night we close all the doors before setting the alarm.
Maybe if you had a similar routine you could do as much of it as possible before your son goes to bed so he realises that you're not thinking of heading off out without him?

If that's not the issue, and your son isn't tired from staying awake until you go to bed yourself, I'd be tempted to suggest telling him once- I'm going to bed at x- time, if you can't sleep at least stop shouting at me! And if he keeps calling down, treat it the same way as you would any other time he might misbehave.

Also- you mentioned he's not lonely or afraid- that he can hear the tv. Maybe try shutting the door and keeping the tv slightly lower- it may not be the case, but he might not even realise that the sound of it is keeping him awake? I'm not sure how practical this might be though, as the change might just upset him and genuinely keep him awake then!

I haven't had the frustration of your experience though, so my suggestions might be completely useless!

metrovelvet

I use melatonin when I have a particularly hard time. Its OTC in the US but not here and you shouldnt use it for over a couple weeks consecutively because it can interefere in your hormones. It produces the sleep hormone which lets you go to sleep. Obviously when you are stressed you are producing stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline which counter acts the production of sleep hormones.

I wouldnt be 100% certain this is about control. It might be, but genuinely it might be something else. Ive had sleep problems since a child and they have chased me into adulthood. Be careful with this.

Sleep and food -primal things - I vowed not to turn either into a power struggle with mommy. So use warmth instead of force imo.

RoryMurphyJnr

Just a suggestion so take it or leave it.
Start the bedtime routine from about 7.30pm, pyjamas, toilet, wash teeth.
Wind down downstairs, maybe a story, no harm dimming the lights.
Then at 8pm off to bed, maybe 30mins of the light on reading.
Leave him there for the 30 regardless of whether he calls down or not.
At 8.30pm go up say goodnight and turn off the lights

If he calls down ignore and keep ignoring any reaction from you whether it's good or not is all he's looking for.
Be strong keep ignoring.
Go to bed when it suits you, don't let him dictate that.

Most important thing is the routine, same thing every night, same times etc.
Shouldn't be too ling before he settles
Best of luck and keep us posted
R

Morag

It could be that the sounds of you locking up the house is part of your night time routine is part of the signals which tell him it's time for sleep. We all have many cues which let us know it is time for bed some of them are obvious some not so much.

Routine and repetition build these into signals and triggers, so we can create them for our kids, I did with certian types of ligthing, bed time routine and certain music. To this day my two who are 10 and 13 react to certain songs. I think you are mad to be talking about medicating your child for this.

Does he have a glass/cup of milk at bedtime? Mine still do. Try that and also locking up the house so that the audible cues are there for him.

Fittle

I'm honestly not talking about 'medicating' im - I sometimes use Rescue remedy myself if I'm stressed...I just meant something with a calming affect more than medication. I just thought that something that might actually relax him, might eventually put him to sleep...

I don't think it's a sleep problem persay metro - he should be exhausted at bedtime because he spends his day after school, out playing football on the road...he is often really really tired at about 7, and when he was younger if I put him to bed at that time, he'd be down for the night! But that's too early now.

I'll try all your tips...have a proper chat with him tonight about it...

It's a bad cycle we've gotten into I'll admit, because the night often ends with me shouting at him to go asleep, upsetting both myself and him.

he's not a bit defiant in other parts of his life - he's not a stubborn kid at all - except when it comes to staying awake every night:mad:

Penny Dreadful

Fittle wrote: »

I'm honestly not talking about 'medicating' im - I sometimes use Rescue remedy myself if I'm stressed...I just meant something with a calming affect more than medication. I just thought that something that might actually relax him, might eventually put him to sleep...

I don't think it's a sleep problem persay metro - he should be exhausted at bedtime because he spends his day after school, out playing football on the road...he is often really really tired at about 7, and when he was younger if I put him to bed at that time, he'd be down for the night! But that's too early now.

I'll try all your tips...have a proper chat with him tonight about it...

It's a bad cycle we've gotten into I'll admit, because the night often ends with me shouting at him to go asleep, upsetting both myself and him.

he's not a bit defiant in other parts of his life - he's not a stubborn kid at all - except when it comes to staying awake every night:mad:

My nephew went through a stage of having bad nightmares and got scared of going to sleep in case the bad dreams came back and like your son he seemed to have an amazing ability to keep himself awake.
My sister bought the Badger Lavander Night Soothing (not 100% sure if thats the right name) ointment in the chemist and rubbed a little on his temples and his forehead and close to his nose. When she was rubbing it in she told him it was a magic bad dream catching ointment that could turn bad dreams into wonderful ones BUT that you had to be asleep for it to work. So they set up their bedtime routine, bath, pjs, into bed for a story and cuddle. Then she would kiss him goodnight and he would pick a story cd and it was lights out. After a week or so of him being thirsty, needing a wee, the room was too hot, too cold, etc etc he settled into the routine and all was quiet before 9pm.

Fittle

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

My nephew went through a stage of having bad nightmares and got scared of going to sleep in case the bad dreams came back and like your son he seemed to have an amazing ability to keep himself awake.
My sister bought the Badger Lavander Night Soothing (not 100% sure if thats the right name) ointment in the chemist and rubbed a little on his temples and his forehead and close to his nose. When she was rubbing it in she told him it was a magic bad dream catching ointment that could turn bad dreams into wonderful ones BUT that you had to be asleep for it to work. So they set up their bedtime routine, bath, pjs, into bed for a story and cuddle. Then she would kiss him goodnight and he would pick a story cd and it was lights out. After a week or so of him being thirsty, needing a wee, the room was too hot, too cold, etc etc he settled into the routine and all was quiet before 9pm.

What a happy ending:D

I often use lavendar in the bath for him but never thought of getting a soothing balm thing...I think that might work! Although he isn't prone to bad dreams at all, and once he's asleep, he hardly stirs till the following morning...it's the determination to stay awake that's the problem:mad:

I'll try that too, thanks:)

Penny Dreadful

Fittle wrote: »

What a happy ending:D

I often use lavendar in the bath for him but never thought of getting a soothing balm thing...I think that might work! Although he isn't prone to bad dreams at all, and once he's asleep, he hardly stirs till the following morning...it's the determination to stay awake that's the problem:mad:

I'll try that too, thanks:)

The lavendar could over come him though despite his best efforts;)

Possibly if you try it along with the suggestion Metrovelvet made about teaching him things and the glass of warm milk it may work for you. Also, he can show you what a big grown up boy he is becoming by staying upstairs and not shouting to you. He can help you to do the grown up things that mums have to do when kids are in bed (whether its washing clothes or getting 5 minutes to have a cup of tea and biscuit) by not shouting and distracting you and so on.

Morag

Fittle wrote: »

I'm honestly not talking about 'medicating' im - I sometimes use Rescue remedy myself if I'm stressed...I just meant something with a calming affect more than medication. I just thought that something that might actually relax him, might eventually put him to sleep...

A few drops of lavender might help so.

Fittle wrote: »

he is often really really tired at about 7, and when he was younger if I put him to bed at that time, he'd be down for the night! But that's too early now.

Why is that too early? Sounds like that could be the time he needs to be in bed and when he misses that window he is then awake and cranky and pestering you. I would honestly suggest moving his bed time forward, rather then keeping him awake.

Fittle

Sharrow wrote: »

A few drops of lavender might help so.



Why is that too early? Sounds like that could be the time he needs to be in bed and when he misses that window he is then awake and cranky and pestering you. I would honestly suggest moving his bed time forward, rather then keeping him awake.

I couldn't possibly put him to bed at 7. It would mean I would get to spend three quarters of an hour with him per day:eek:

I mentioned earlier, I collect him from the minders at 6 and we're home by 6.15. We have to do homework (which takes forever), eat, do bedtime routine etc.....

Morag

What time is he being woken up in the morning?
Some kids need 12 hours esp when they are under 10.

Hang on your keeping him awake past his natural body clocks sleeping time so you can spend time with him and then are complaining he won't give you any time to yourself?
Seriously!

If I were you I would set bed time at 7ish and not be interrupting his sleep patterns,
as he gets old he will stay awake longer in the evenings and you will get to see him more.

Penny Dreadful

Fittle wrote: »

I couldn't possibly put him to bed at 7. It would mean I would get to spend three quarters of an hour with him per day:eek:

I mentioned earlier, I collect him from the minders at 6 and we're home by 6.15. We have to do homework (which takes forever), eat, do bedtime routine etc.....

Could you possibly ask the childminder to give him his dinner? That way all you have to do with him is his homework and once that is out of the way you can have your other time with him to chat about his day, do some colouring etc without having to rush around making dinner, getting him to eat it, do homework and so on. It will give you more time to enjoy with him, get him to bed earlier and then you can eat on your own in peace later when he is in bed.

Fittle

Thanks for the advice Sharrow, but there's no way I could put him to bed at 7. He's almost 9 and there isn't a 9yr old in the world who would go to bed at seve (even if it was what I wanted). I wake him in the mornings at 7.45...

The minder gives him his dinner and he does some of his written homework with her too (she has a child in primary also)...but I always check the homework, finish the written stuff, do the reading and tables, sign the journal, make the tea, colour, draw and watch one of the Simpsons on Sky....I prefer to check the homework myself as it keeps me on top of how school is going. Last year, I went through about a month of working till 7 each evening, (it was 8ish getting home) and only signed the journal, (foolishly) trusting that he had all the work done for school the next day! His school work slipped alot that month:(

Now that the bright evenings are coming in:D, we'll go out for a ramble, just even down to the shops at about 7...I'll try all the tips guys, thanks.

Morag

I can appreicate how hard it can be to juggle it all and some times homework seems to take up the whole evening. It will get easier as he gets older but he needs to learn to drift off himself funny it's like a baby being put down to sleep, it's routine and changing what he's used to. Hopefully you will be able to strike the right balance for you both.

Penny Dreadful

Fittle wrote: »

Thanks for the advice Sharrow, but there's no way I could put him to bed at 7. He's almost 9 and there isn't a 9yr old in the world who would go to bed at seve (even if it was what I wanted). I wake him in the mornings at 7.45...

The minder gives him his dinner and he does some of his written homework with her too (she has a child in primary also)...but I always check the homework, finish the written stuff, do the reading and tables, sign the journal, make the tea, colour, draw and watch one of the Simpsons on Sky....I prefer to check the homework myself as it keeps me on top of how school is going. Last year, I went through about a month of working till 7 each evening, (it was 8ish getting home) and only signed the journal, (foolishly) trusting that he had all the work done for school the next day! His school work slipped alot that month:(

Now that the bright evenings are coming in:D, we'll go out for a ramble, just even down to the shops at about 7...I'll try all the tips guys, thanks.

You really do have your hands full. It sounds like you have a good childminder which is great. One thing that may help would be cutting out the tv when the weather is good and as you said going out for a walk, or just playing in the garden/park instead. It would tire him out more than tv and is a good habit for him to have for life too.
Best of luck with it all.

Fittle

Thanks, but it doesn't feel like I've my hands full - not when I compare it to when he was a baby:eek: Life is generally good and if we could just nail this bedtime routine thing, things would be great:D And of course, he's the best kid in the world and makes me smile everyday...;)
Thanks again.

Penny Dreadful

Fittle wrote: »

Thanks, but it doesn't feel like I've my hands full - not when I compare it to when he was a baby:eek: Life is generally good and if we could just nail this bedtime routine thing, things would be great:D And of course, he's the best kid in the world and makes me smile everyday...;)
Thanks again.

Thats great. I didn't mean hands full in a bad way, just in the way that being a working mum means you have your hands full.
Fingers crossed the bedtime will get sorted out and make everything fantastically wonderful.

Mr. Presentable

You need to take control. At the moment your son is in control.

Children his age need about 12 hours sleep, so he should really be to bed by eight. I appreciate it's difficult when you see so little of him during the day, but it is better for the child to get sufficient sleep, and in the end his benefit is what parenting is all about.

So, you need to sit him down and explain to him that he has his bed time and you have yours. That when he goes does not dictate when you go. Be tough - let him call down all night if he wants to. A while of that with you not responding will get boring for him and he'll soon learn it doesn't work any more.

Oh, and bed is for sleeping - any reading should be before bed-time, at least until he gets the habit of going down when sent.

axel rose

I don't think you are doing anything wrong from what you are describing-maybe with the exception of two words-reward chart.

For every night he stays in bed without shouting out to you he gets a sticker, a weeks worth of stickers he gets whatever you want to give him! I think they are selling them in Aldi at the moment!

Mr. Presentable

axel rose wrote: »

I don't think you are doing anything wrong from what you are describing-maybe with the exception of two words-reward chart.

For every night he stays in bed without shouting out to you he gets a sticker, a weeks worth of stickers he gets whatever you want to give him! I think they are selling them in Aldi at the moment!

Good idea.

Fittle

Thank you all for your comments.

Night two was last night...didn't go too badly...he didn't shout down the stairs to me, but he was still awake when I went up the stairs at 11:rolleyes:

Reward stickers work really well with him (particularly in school) so I'll defo get some of them.

As I said though, the child literally appears to be unable to fall asleep unless I am also in bed. I did the locking the door stuff (worked well) as he went to bed etc...I don't know how a child can keep himself awake for so long...he says he's not afraid when I'm downstairs, has no fear of monsters etc, just feels more comfortable when I'm upstairs:mad:

Fittle

Just wanted to report back:D

Night two, and having taken alot of your ideas on board, it's going well.

I decorated his room on friday/saturday also - painted it (my shoulders are in bits with that roller:rolleyes:) and bought him a corkboard, so he could put up some posters etc. Also bought some very cheap ikea shelves, so he could put his books up etc....I had an old Dunnes picture frame, with 6 small frames in it, and he drew some pencil art stuff on friday night - I've put it in the frame and hung it on the wall...he is only delighted!!

I don't think he's really taken 'ownership' of his room - he rarely plays in it during the day...or uses it as his 'haven' -probably the wrong word, but I distinctly remember as a child that I LOVED my bedroom..it was a sanctuary from the madness of homelife lol (sorry if some of my phrases sound american!! but you get the gist). I never really thought about the actual 'space' he sleeps in if I'm honest...it's a nice airy room, clear walls, new bed etc...but it wasn't really 'his' room if that makes sense...kind of just more the place he slept in.

It's still quite new to him..but already today he asked if he could bring two of his mates up to see his 'new' room....

So two nights so far..fingers crossed...thanks for advice again guys, it really helped..:D