Agri Diesel in a Car

Mr.Boots

I saw a BMW 530D filling up yesterday with agri diesel, i have seen farmers doing it in the past putting it into their Troopers/Landcruisers, but i dont think i have seen it being put into a car.
I know its probably widespread, but if you cant afford to legally fuel your car should you be driving a 530D?
Any thoughts on this?

reilig

Mr.Boots wrote: »

I saw a BMW 530D filling up yesterday with agri diesel, i have seen farmers doing it in the past putting it into their Troopers/Landcruisers, but i dont think i have seen it being put into a car.
I know its probably widespread, but if you cant afford to legally fuel your car should you be driving a 530D?
Any thoughts on this?

I agree with you.
But, been driving a diesel car for over 10 years now. Have gone through several customs checkpoints and never once been dipped. They don't tend to dip cars unless you look like a farmer around my area anyway. So this guy with the BMW probably has never been dipped and probably never will.

Mr.Boots

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Any thoughts on this?

It's not uncommon, some stations have the pump locked and won't allow folks fill road vehicles with it. 530Ds can be bought for very small money now so running one on agri diesel and dodging the motor tax would make them a cheap to run bus.

cena

you can smell the differences in the agri stuff. Had a friend at the house one day and i was talking too them outside when i got the smell of the tractor desiel. i said too them and they said it was and that the pump was marked wrong at the time.

Mr.Boots

Hmmmm, i guess it probably is widespread, dosnt make it right.
I work dam hard for what i have, this contry is in the ditch, people like this arnt helping the situation.
I forgot to have a cheeky look to see if it was taxed :P
Anyway there is no point in me coming on here complaining about it, in future im going to report them.

ronaneire

Green diesel not very good for a car or van engines

bazz26

I've been driving diesel cars for nearly 5 years now and have not had my tank dipped yet, I still would not take the chance of using "green" diesel though.

Any truth in that I heard the residue from the green dye can still be detected upto 12 months after it was last used in the tank?

Mr.Boots

Ive never been dipped either, sitll wouldnt do it.
The type of people who do use it are the ones who park directly outside the door of tesco.
The guy filling the car looked like the "i can do what i like with my money" type....Ie. more money than brains. (he actually looked inbred...and im not exagerating)

bazz26

bazz26 wrote: »

Any truth in that I heard the residue from the green dye can still be detected upto 12 months after it was last used in the tank?

Dunno, can't see it making much difference though, if I ran a car on green diesel and sold it to you surely 9 months on if you are dipped the traces of green can't be used against you?
Potentially interesting though.

Matt Simis

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Hmmmm, i guess it probably is widespread, dosnt make it right.
I work dam hard for what i have, this contry is in the ditch, people like this arnt helping the situation.
I forgot to have a cheeky look to see if it was taxed :P
Anyway there is no point in me coming on here complaining about it, in future im going to report them.

I wouldnt run Green Diesel either, but I dont think paying high fuel costs is "helping" anything but the ineptitude and easy answer approach of our government.

Given tax is mentioned, do you feel is "right" that a 15year old 3.0 petrol pays EUR1500 tax and a higher carbon tax on fuel yet a new A6 3.0TDI pays what, EUR156 a year and cheaper fuel? The older car supports the local mechanic over its long service life, the new doesnt (yet). They both paid equal VAT at the time of purchase, but the older, more socially concious petrol 3.0 driver is reamed by our system for absolutely no good reason.

You bitch about some guy paying a little less for his fuel (isnt green diesel approaching 90c a litre anyhow?) yet our taxation system allows certain folk to legally pay a tiny percentage of others in tax and less on fuel.. thats not a system worth protecting and one guy taking it into his own hands to lower the amount of tax he is "giving up" to the government is IMO no worse than the guy "legally" doing it through the many loop holes in our system (Crewcabs, 2008+ cars etc).

Report away my Stazi friend, report away if you can sleep better when we are all equally destitute.

keithclancy

ronaneire wrote: »

Green diesel not very good for a car or van engines

Source ... or GTFO

Diesel is diesel, Agri Diesel has an additive in it to give it a Green colour.

Here on the continent there additives to stop it freezing if it gets really cold.

Even contaminated diesel should only clog up your fuel filter, unless theres water in it or something.

Mr.Boots

Matt Simis wrote: »

I wouldnt run Green Diesel either, but I dont think paying high fuel costs is "helping" anything but the ineptitude and easy answer approach of our government.

Given tax is mentioned, do you feel is "right" that a 15year old 3.0 petrol pays EUR1500 tax and a higher carbon tax on fuel yet a new A6 3.0TDI pays what, EUR156 a year and cheaper fuel? The older car supports the local mechanic over its long service life, the new doesnt (yet). They both paid equal VAT at the time of purchase, but the older, more socially concious petrol 3.0 driver is reamed by our system for absolutely no good reason.

You bitch about some guy paying a little less for his fuel (isnt green diesel approaching 90c a litre anyhow?) yet our taxation system allows certain folk to legally paying a tiny percentage of others.. thats not a system worth protecting.

IM not having a bitch and im not saying the system is perfect in any way, putting green diesel in a private car is against the law now matter what you dressit up with matt.
Yea i think its about 90c a litre...a saving of maybe 30euro on a fill.

JimmyCrackCorn

Iv seen 3 customs checkpoints with tank dipping equipment in the last two months.

Customs are clamping down on this. I never saw it before that, customs usually only did vrt.

Matt Simis

Mr.Boots wrote: »

IM not having a bitch and im not saying the system is perfect in any way, putting green diesel in a private car is against the law now matter what you dressit up with matt.
Yea i think its about 90c a litre...a saving of maybe 30euro on a fill.

Lol, Im not saying its not, Im saying who cares!? There are legal ways of avoiding tax and illegal ones, but people can and do avoid tax. The "law" are letters on a paper, not a moral compass that people here make it out as. You make your own decision on whats right and wrong.

Its pure begrudgery, the fact you need to draw attention to the fact he is in a mighty BMW 530d makes this clear. It would be no less illegal in a 20year old banger.

Mr.Boots

Matt Simis wrote: »

Lol, Im not saying its not, Im saying who cares!?

NIce attitude dude.
I care...

Matt Simis

Mr.Boots wrote: »

NIce attitude dude.
I care...

Why? Again noting Id like to hear you comment on legalised tax avoidance as described. Is your issue some sort of mental block on "black or white law breaking" or do you really believe this is hurting the country, which is naively what you said earlier.

keithclancy wrote: »

Source ... or GTFO
Diesel is diesel, Agri Diesel has an additive in it to give it a Green colour.
Here on the continent there additives to stop it freezing if it gets really cold.
Even contaminated diesel should only clog up your fuel filter, unless theres water in it or something.

The Green/Agri diesel is bad for cars thing is due to the fact a while back only proper DERV was low Sulpher and Agri High Sulpher (better for engines but bad for emission equipment). Presumably the current Green diesel is also ULSD though, just dyed.

taintabird

ronaneire wrote: »

Green diesel not very good for a car or van engines

There is very little difference in modern agricultural engines an car or van engines, modern commercial and agricultural engine are subject to emission regulation just the same as cars and vans they use egr and common rail injection just the same ie they are euro 4 compliant

Ghost Estate

Good luck to him.

I hope he enjoys many more years of 530d driving pleasure on green diesel.

The tax is only used to pay for debts the state should never have taken on.

Mr.Boots

Matt Simis wrote: »

Why?

The Green/Agri diesel is bad for cars thing is due to the fact a while back only proper DERV was low Sulpher and Agri High Sulpher (better for engines but bad for emission equipment). Presumably the current Green diesel is also ULSD though, just dyed.

It is such an Irish attitude not to care..."If its not affecting me then i dont care"
I care because it is robbing the state of revenue (dont argue where that revenue is going...thats for another thread)
Why ask me why i care? Ask yourself why you dont care...

Ghost Estate

Mr.Boots wrote: »

It is such an Irish attitude not to care..."If its not affecting me then i dont care"
I care because it is robbing the state of revenue (dont argue where that revenue is going...thats for another thread)
Why ask me why i care? Ask yourself why you dont care...

If it's an Irish attitude not to care, then which country's attitude is it to constantly stick your nose into everyone else's business to make sure they are obeying the law to the letter? I need to know so I can go out of my way to never visit this country. That is not a very nice society to live in.

Things are so bad over here that worrying about these things is like deciding to re-spray the sinking ship while it's already halfway under. A lot of people are in deep financial **** these days, they don't have time to be a goodie 2-shoes anymore and staying at home isn't an option for them either.

Matt Simis

Mr.Boots wrote: »

It is such an Irish attitude not to care..."If its not affecting me then i dont care"
I care because it is robbing the state of revenue (dont argue where that revenue is going...thats for another thread)
Why ask me why i care? Ask yourself why you dont care...

You have that backward, the valley of the peeping windows spying on your neighbours and reporting people you think are unfairly doing better is the aptly called Irish disease.
The reason I dont care I have put up for all to see. "Robbing the state of revenue" but dont argue it. Lololol, classic, keep your head well buried there.
Maybe you should expand your spy and report operation and go through your neighbours and friends bins to see if they are paying all their taxes too... I mean why draw the line at hanging around petrol stations spying on strangers?

Look up Stazi and see if you can learn anything from East Germany and the justification people there used to report everyone they suspected of "doing better" than them. Totally legal and "right" at that place and time too.

ronaneire

keithclancy wrote: »

Source ... or GTFO

Diesel is diesel, Agri Diesel has an additive in it to give it a Green colour.

Here on the continent there additives to stop it freezing if it gets really cold.

Even contaminated diesel should only clog up your fuel filter, unless theres water in it or something.

No need for your insult pal. Green diesel does not contain the same additives as road diesel.

Satanta

would the extra sulphur content of the agri diesel be bad for the DPF filtering systems on the modern diesel cars?

Mr.Boots

Lads...seem to have struck a nerve with you.
No point argueing your points as your making assumptions of me that arnt true.
I was more interested in peoples opinions in putting green diesel in a car...especially an expencive car.

Matt Simis

ronaneire wrote: »

No need for your insult pal. Green diesel does not contain the same additives as road diesel.

People say GTFO jokingly..

cadaliac

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Lads...seem to have struck a nerve with you.
No point argueing your points as your making assumptions of me that arnt true.
I was more interested in peoples opinions in putting green diesel in a car...especially an expencive car.

I think you got that, imo :pac:

stevenmu

Matt Simis wrote: »

Lol, Im not saying its not, Im saying who cares!? There are legal ways of avoiding tax and illegal ones, but people can and do avoid tax. The "law" are letters on a paper, not a moral compass that people here make it out as. You make your own decision on whats right and wrong.

For many people following the law, even when it's not to their own personal advantage, is a moral decision.

The law is a common set of rules that applies to everyone equally and puts us all on a common playing field. Somebody who breaks these rules, such as somebody using agri-diesel in a road car, is not only cheating the system they are also cheating everybody within that system. If everybody was to decide for themselves which laws to follow and which taxes to pay or not pay there would be chaos. Lots of people pay less income tax than me, in fact some people pay no income tax and instead actually get money from the government, is that a valid justification for me to just stop paying my income tax? What happens if everyone else stops doing that? If no one pays fuel duty because we all drive around using agri-diesel, and no one pays income tax because sure some people don't pay any at all, where does the money for the roads come from, not to mention the hospitals, social welfare etc etc.

stevenmu

Mr.Boots wrote: »

I was more interested in peoples opinions in putting green diesel in a car...especially an expencive car.

Personally I would love to see him/her get dipped and get a nice big fine and have their car seized. If they can't afford to legally fuel it they should get something cheaper that they can afford to fuel, just like millions of others do and have done.

Tea 1000

Matt Simis wrote: »

You have that backward, the valley of the peeping windows spying on your neighbours and reporting people you think are unfairly doing better is the aptly called Irish disease.
The reason I dont care I have put up for all to see. "Robbing the state of revenue" but dont argue it. Lololol, classic, keep your head well buried there.
Maybe you should expand your spy and report operation and go through your neighbours and friends bins to see if they are paying all their taxes too... I mean why draw the line at hanging around petrol stations spying on strangers?

Look up Stazi and see if you can learn anything from East Germany and the justification people there used to report everyone they suspected of "doing better" than them. Totally legal and "right" at that place and time too.

In fairness, there's no need to be so harsh on him. You weren't so harsh on other posters on here who were criticising the woman in Donegal in her Lexus RX-whatever avoiding her VRT and had it siezed on her, why are those posters OK in your book and Mr. Boots is not?
I do see something wrong with someone filling their car up with agri-diesel. I wouldn't report them, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter. I don't go looking for people who avoid tax, I doubt Mr. Boots does either, but am I wrong to get annoyed at people who blatently break the law? I don't like it that i have to pay 1.34 for diesel, but I don't applaud anyone who just fills with green diesel.
You may say what's the harm, but it's an accumulative thing like anything else. No one wants a country full of rubbish for example, so none of us should throw our litter out the window. There's no point in excusing for someone by saying "ah sure it's just one little coke can and a bag, that's not going to destroy the country". You might be right, that one coke can mightn't, but that attitude will.
As for legally avoiding tax? It's a seperate issue, but if you want my opinion on it, then I think Ivor Calelly is a thieving scumbag who deserves no respect.
Bono on the other hand is fine. So depends on the specific "loop hole".

Mr.Boots

Maybe the Garage has bigger role to play in this,
To "Police" the people who just dont care...
Could the garage get into trouble over this...like an off licence selling to under 18's type scenario?

BanzaiBk

My daily has been dipped twice this year already, yet I often see the same cars filling up on agri diesel. I assume the dipping is more common here because we're near the port etc but obviously the repeat offenders are getting away with it. Up until the last year or so the pump was definitely locked and it was pumped by an attendant, now it's open self-serve.

Guy:Incognito

Ghost Estate wrote: »

The tax is only used to pay for debts the state should never have taken on.

Really? Only for debt? What are the hospitals, social welfare and schools paid for with? Sunshine and happiness?

keithclancy

taintabird wrote: »

There is very little difference in modern agricultural engines an car or van engines, modern commercial and agricultural engine are subject to emission regulation just the same as cars and vans they use egr and common rail injection just the same ie they are euro 4 compliant

Indeed:

http://www.benburgess.co.uk/Libraries/documents/Best_practice_for_Ultra_Low_Sulphur_Diesel.sflb.ashx

Since 1 January 2011 the fuel for all
off-road machinery (red diesel in the
UK, green diesel in Ireland) should be
ultra low sulphur diesel (ULSD). This is
an EU requirement for Stage IIIB
emission compliant engines.

AFAIK its just Green Dye added to Normal Diesel.

Solvent Yellow 124 is in all fuel, so they measure how much is there compared to the Green Dye to find out how much was added.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent_Yellow_124

OldmanMondeo

keithclancy wrote: »

Source ... or GTFO

Diesel is diesel, Agri Diesel has an additive in it to give it a Green colour.

Here on the continent there additives to stop it freezing if it gets really cold.

Even contaminated diesel should only clog up your fuel filter, unless theres water in it or something.

Without me listening to the long drawn out conversation, cause I was bored... I did ask the Guys in out Diesel shop and they say that yes green diesel is not good for you car on a long term basis. It can mess injectors and fuel pumps up. Please don't ask me how, cause the guy I would have to ask is a boring auld git....

Matt Simis

stevenmu wrote: »

For many people following the law, even when it's not to their own personal advantage, is a moral decision.

And that one sentence is exactly my issue. The Law is not a moral compass. That line of thought is the the seeds of Fascism.
Now hold your LOLing, Im not saying Mr Boots is about to start a new holy crusade, but as a people we should never without question equate right and wrong with legal and illegal.


I dont think its morally wrong to not pay Mineral Oil tax (which as per my other thread is applied, unjustly, carte blanche to non-Mineral Fuel too). I think its illegal.
I do not buy into the notion that any small tax evasion by an individual citizen has a cumulative effect leading to "sure then no body will ever pay any tax" at all. People will willingly help one another, but paying tax is like a carbon offset, its a notion of helping to ease ones conscience (and a law), its actual real world help is debatable. Great nations have existed which didnt institutionalise defacto tax on everyone at all times.

I dont think not paying certain taxes (and yes I am openly picking and choosing what I think is right and wrong, we all should) is the downfall of society.. anymore than those that didnt pay the British Window Tax were morally corrupt, social miscreants.
We would be a better people if we unemotionally used our brains to pick and choose what tax to pay as opposed being sheeple scared into believing the dogma of doing all or nothing.

Mr.Boots

Matt Simis wrote: »

And that one sentence is exactly my issue. The Law is not a moral compass. That line of thought is the the seeds of Fascism.
Now hold your LOLing, Im not saying Mr Boots is about to start a new holy crusade, but as a people we should never without question equate right and wrong with legal and illegal.


I dont think its morally wrong to not pay Mineral Oil tax (which as per my other thread is applied, unjustly, carte blanche to non-Mineral Fuel too). I think its illegal.
I do not buy into the notion that any small tax evasion by an individual citizen has a cumulative effect leading to "sure then no body will ever pay any tax" at all. People will willingly help one another, but paying tax is like a carbon offset, its a notion of helping to ease ones conscience (and a law), its actual real world help is debatable. Great nations have existed which didnt institutionalise defacto tax on everyone at all times.

I dont think not paying certain taxes (and yes I am openly picking and choosing what I think is right and wrong, we all should) is the downfall of society.. anymore than those that didnt pay the British Window Tax were morally corrupt, social miscreants.
We would be a better people if we unemotionally used our brains to pick and choose what tax to pay as opposed being sheeple scared into believing the dogma of doing all or nothing.

I believe in upholding the law, simple.
You live your life your way...ill live my life my way.
Time will tell whose the bigger fool.

Jimmy Garlic

I would have no problem whatsoever using the stuff and I wouldn't feel one bit guilty about it :pac:, quite the opposite infact.

dharn

i think it is very blatant to fill green diesel in to car like that in public, he deserves to get caught if you feel the need to break the law be a little more discreet

Jimmy Garlic

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Really? Only for debt? What are the hospitals, social welfare and schools paid for with? Sunshine and happiness?

We pay more than enough tax to pay for those things already:rolleyes:.. The massive tax take on fuel is taking the piss.

keithclancy

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Without me listening to the long drawn out conversation, cause I was bored... I did ask the Guys in out Diesel shop and they say that yes green diesel is not good for you car on a long term basis. It can mess injectors and fuel pumps up. Please don't ask me how, cause the guy I would have to ask is a boring auld git....

Diesel Engines on Tractors have Injectors and Fuel Pumps just like cars.

Tea 1000

Matt Simis wrote: »

And that one sentence is exactly my issue. The Law is not a moral compass. That line of thought is the the seeds of Fascism.
Now hold your LOLing, Im not saying Mr Boots is about to start a new holy crusade, but as a people we should never without question equate right and wrong with legal and illegal.


I dont think its morally wrong to not pay Mineral Oil tax (which as per my other thread is applied, unjustly, carte blanche to non-Mineral Fuel too). I think its illegal.
I do not buy into the notion that any small tax evasion by an individual citizen has a cumulative effect leading to "sure then no body will ever pay any tax" at all. People will willingly help one another, but paying tax is like a carbon offset, its a notion of helping to ease ones conscience (and a law), its actual real world help is debatable. Great nations have existed which didnt institutionalise defacto tax on everyone at all times.

I dont think not paying certain taxes (and yes I am openly picking and choosing what I think is right and wrong, we all should) is the downfall of society.. anymore than those that didnt pay the British Window Tax were morally corrupt, social miscreants.
We would be a better people if we unemotionally used our brains to pick and choose what tax to pay as opposed being sheeple scared into believing the dogma of doing all or nothing.

I see what you're saying, and you do have a point, and for me personally I don't think green diesel is one of those ones that I'd be happy with people doing.
And I do think it makes a difference based on what they drive. Not from the perspective of the law, but morally, like you pointed out. I have an issue with someone who wishes to drive a 530d but decides to skimp on paying fuel tax. I'd have some sympathy with someone who has some Jetta diesel that they need to get around in and can bearly afford to run it and puts green into it. But I've no sympathy with someone who drives around in a 530d and decides that they want to save money on fuel.
It's not begrudgery. I'm not jealous of his 530d.

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

the British Window Tax

That was daylight robbery altogether :pac:!!

Motorists are completely over taxed in this country between taxes on fuel, VRT and motor tax. I have no problem with people giving two fingers to the government and avoiding some of the above taxes from time to time, I would advise the lad in the 530d to get a few 5 gallon drums though and fill them rather than filling the car in public as the place is rife with nosy busy bodies who get pleasure from reporting people.

dharn

another thought, what about all the dudes that are turning green diesel into white by adding chemicals ,bleach etc to it, and people will buy it, im sure it is destroying engines so worrying about green diesel damaging an engine is a waste of time we could all be caught by genuine looking cars that have been damaged by laundered diesel if we buy secondhand

Tea 1000

Trinity Tight Jackhammer wrote: »

That was daylight robbery altogether!!

Motorists are completely over taxed in this country between taxes on fuel, VRT and motor tax. I have no problem with people giving two fingers to the government and avoiding some of the above taxes from time to time, I would advise the lad in the 530d to get a few 5 gallon drums though and fill them rather than filling the car in public as the place is rife with nosy busy bodies who get pleasure from reporting people.

Yep, the likes of him would the the likes of a bollix who boasts to all how great his 530d is and how he is such a mighty man and mighty driver, and he'll stop for no man...

Tea 1000

dharn wrote: »

another thought, what about all the dudes that are turning green diesel into white by adding chemicals ,bleach etc to it, and people will buy it, im sure it is destroying engines so worrying about green diesel damaging an engine is a waste of time we could all be caught by genuine looking cars that have been damaged by laundered diesel if we buy secondhand

Seems like the "regular" diesel that you fill up with could potentially be this stuff. You never know. Stick with petrol is the motto here!

Matt Simis

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Yep, the likes of him would the the likes of a bollix who boasts to all how great his 530d is and how he is such a mighty man and mighty driver, and he'll stop for no man...

Well, to play devils advocate (for a change.. ) he could also be a widower due to the hospital cancer treatment fiasco in this country now so disenfranchised with the system he is no longer going to financially support it.

dharn wrote: »

another thought, what about all the dudes that are turning green diesel into white by adding chemicals ,bleach etc to it, and people will buy it, im sure it is destroying engines so worrying about green diesel damaging an engine is a waste of time we could all be caught by genuine looking cars that have been damaged by laundered diesel if we buy secondhand

Apparently thats a big problem up the North. They need to use Acid to breakdown the colourant. The Acid itself then should be neutralised with a Base however sometimes they apparently dont quite get it right..

Mr.Boots

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well, to play devils advocate (for a change.. ) he could also be a widower due to the hospital cancer treatment fiasco in this country now so disenfranchised with the system he is no longer going to financially support it.

He bought enough sweets, coke, biscuits, chrisps and chips to feed a familey of six.

Mycroft H

I would have no problem using it.

Wouldn't use it in the land rover as its commercial and a much higher chance of being dipped, but in a small diesel car, I wouldn't hesitate as the price of road diesel is extortionate at the minute especially as more then 80c in the euro goes the the state

Stiffs

Was watching one of those higway cops programmes a while back. They pulled a car and dipped it. He had old engine oil mixed with his fuel??? It changed the of the fuel again so they couldn't be sure if he was using green diesel..

Strange one..

mikemac

Farm at home so asked my Dad and the jeep has been dipped twice last year.
I've seen two other checkpoints last year and this is a pretty rural area.

Some local stations sell it also but the pumps are locked, you have to go in and talk to the staff. I would think that's fairly standard

Mycroft H

That said the land rover will run pretty well on veg oil with little or no modification so i might consider a 50 diesel and 50 oil mix.