Agri Diesel in a Car

Matt Simis

Matt Simis wrote: »

So technically filling up on legit UK diesel is subject to the same offence as the appropriate (Irish) excise hasnt been paid?

That's exactly what I was thinking. They may fine people for driving with red diesel but if someone was willing to challenge it I cant see how revenue would argue their case.

They have no business enforcing the laws in another country and if the technical offence for using green diesel is the fact that the full duty has not been paid then either all diesel from outside the jurisdiction is illegal as no duty is paid on it (in Ireland) or they have no say regardless of it breeching laws abroad.

J77

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Lads...seem to have struck a nerve with you.
No point argueing your points as your making assumptions of me that arnt true.
I was more interested in peoples opinions in putting green diesel in a car...especially an expencive car.

I think it would be a different story in say a new 530d or 520d. I'd agree that would be taking the p*ss and I think other people would also. You never mentioned how old it was but i'd guess it's up to 10 years old in which case the only thing expensive about it is the 12k total in car tax that has been paid for the duration of it's life.

If you're talking about morals and how fair the tax system is then you can't forget about massive car tax bills and VRT.

shogunpower

J77 wrote: »

I think it would be a different story in say a new 530d or 520d. I'd agree that would be taking the p*ss and I think other people would also. You never mentioned how old it was but i'd guess it's up to 10 years old in which case the only thing expensive about it is the 12k total in car tax that has been paid for the duration of it's life.

If you're talking about morals and how fair the tax system is then you can't forget about massive car tax bills and VRT.

+1 he can afford the car but cant afford to run it in this country with the stupid tax systems, 1.2 diesel brigade on here crying about something that such a small effect on the over amount of tax the government takes in from fuel.

keithclancy

Matt Simis wrote: »

So technically filling up on legit UK diesel is subject to the same offence as the appropriate (Irish) excise hasnt been paid?

Yes, same for booze, your exempt from paying Duty as long as the Duty has been paid in another EU state.

EDIT .. misread that .. Filling up on the red stuff is just as illegall in the south as no Duty has been paid.

Mr.Boots

I think at this stage all this thread is showing is some peoples bitterness towords our current goverment (which is understandable)
I personally think its morally wrong to cheat the system wheather you agree with it or not.
I have been called a good few things on here while defending my point, i guess thats the price you pay for having a moral back bone and being honest. Some people feel threatened.
Such a shame to see so many people with this bad attitude.

-Corkie-

keithclancy wrote: »

I really don't get your point, I'm pretty sure theres a bunch of Fastracs in Ireland since they are about one of the only tractors you can use on a motorway.

The fuel you buy right now is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel, so I dont see how that could damage the DPF or any other part of the engine (I never even mentioned the DPF since alot of cars do not have them)

I don't really care about the legality of using it, but saying "it will wreck your engine" is simply not true.

I never said it will wreck your engine know all.

daithi2011

gpf101 wrote: »

After calming down a bit and thinking about it I'm not going to send any emails about anything to anyone. It just seriously annoys the **** out of me when people flaunt this kind of stuff and boast about it. If you are going to do it or know your family do it at least have the class to keep it to yourself and don't boast about it online.

I doubt you calmed down at all. You just realized how incredibly stupid and childish you sounded. Congratulations.
Go right ahead though. Id be disappointed now if you didnt email customs. Im looking forward to see how good the people who waste my taxes are. You have my full permission.

ottostreet

A lot of self-righteousness in here.

I, for one, would have no issues with using green diesel in a private car if I thought I could get away with it. After all, everyone may blab on and on about the country and taxpayers money and all that, but in reality, you have to look after No.1, yourself.

If I thought I could get away for years with running a fuel that works perfectly well in my car, and is far cheaper than the others, then I wouldn't care what my nosy neighbours think...into my fuel tank it would go. After all, its up to the government to catch me doing it, not you.

There is no 'moral issue' with fuel. And any poster that thinks otherwise, is an utter fool.

-Corkie-

gpf101 wrote: »

After calming down a bit and thinking about it I'm not going to send any emails about anything to anyone. It just seriously annoys the **** out of me when people flaunt this kind of stuff and boast about it. If you are going to do it or know your family do it at least have the class to keep it to yourself and don't boast about it online.

I would just ignore him. He is just baiting you he was trying the same with me. His idea is that he annoys you so much you tell him fcuk off or the likes and you end up with a ban and he goes away laughing.

A very wise Mod told me about that before, pity he is gone now.

CarMuppet

ottostreet wrote: »

A lot of self-righteousness in here.

I, for one, would have no issues with using green diesel in a private car if I thought I could get away with it. After all, everyone may blab on and on about the country and taxpayers money and all that, but in reality, you have to look after No.1, yourself.

If I thought I could get away for years with running a fuel that works perfectly well in my car, and is far cheaper than the others, then I wouldn't care what my nosy neighbours think...into my fuel tank it would go. After all, its up to the government to catch me doing it, not you.

There is no 'moral issue' with fuel. And any poster that thinks otherwise, is an utter fool.

In theory I would have to disagree with you here..but in reality? hmmm possibly agree.

I would like to think I would not use agri (if I had a diesel vehicle)... but I'm sure if I was financially pushed into it and though I would not get caught, if desperate I would consider it. It's not legal, but I don't see how tax and morals can be used in the same sentence.. .considering how senior civil servants (& TDs) are feathering their own nests with our contributions. This is not a political post, just outlining the reasoning on how a law abiding citizen can be pushed into 'illegal' activities. ie running a family car on agri to help run the day to day family activities. Or, for example doing 'foxers' to bring home extra cash for ESB, food, school fees, etc etc.

Now I know some of you will flame me saying "oh that's no argument, someone robbing a bank could claim the same"....

Running agri fuel is illegal, but immoral? I personally don't think so..

Have to say this is a good thread.... it's genuinely very interesting reading the views on this here.

Cheers,
Michael.

Matt Simis

Pretty polarizing topic indeed. I would think more people would have played the morally wrong card 4years ago, different times and less $$ pressure.

ottostreet

ottostreet wrote: »

A lot of self-righteousness in here.

I, for one, would have no issues with using green diesel in a private car if I thought I could get away with it. After all, everyone may blab on and on about the country and taxpayers money and all that, but in reality, you have to look after No.1, yourself.

If I thought I could get away for years with running a fuel that works perfectly well in my car, and is far cheaper than the others, then I wouldn't care what my nosy neighbours think...into my fuel tank it would go. After all, its up to the government to catch me doing it, not you.

There is no 'moral issue' with fuel. And any poster that thinks otherwise, is an utter fool.

I think its hilarious people talking about "moral issues" and green diesel in the same sentence. What's morally right for my wallet is what i'm concerned about.

I don't drive a diesel an if I did I probably wouldn't chance green as I drive across the country most weeks. However if I was living at home and using the car locally I wouldn't think twice as there would be literary zero chance of getting caught.

EPM

daithi2011 wrote: »

I doubt you calmed down at all. You just realized how incredibly stupid and childish you sounded. Congratulations.
Go right ahead though. Id be disappointed now if you didnt email customs. Im looking forward to see how good the people who waste my taxes are. You have my full permission.

There's already been a warning. Stop trying to get a rise out of people.

kincaid

GOD there worst things happening in Ireland than a guy filling his car up with a drop of green diesel... he taking a chance and if caught he could face up to €2500 fine but would never never grass someone like this up..
he also paying some vat on this too so the government is getting something and to be honest there is a huge amount of washed diesel being sold in filling stations (around the border areas anyway) that is killing our cars engines anyway and we dont even know it till our injector pump etc is wrecked

Del2005

Trinity Tight Jackhammer wrote: »

That's exactly what I was thinking. They may fine people for driving with red diesel but if someone was willing to challenge it I cant see how revenue would argue their case.

They have no business enforcing the laws in another country and if the technical offence for using green diesel is the fact that the full duty has not been paid then either all diesel from outside the jurisdiction is illegal as no duty is paid on it (in Ireland) or they have no say regardless of it breeching laws abroad.

If that's the case then why are the PSNI stopping and fining ROI cars out of Motor Tax. You have to be legal in your country to drive legally in another EU country

ottostreet wrote: »

There is no 'moral issue' with fuel. And any poster that thinks otherwise, is an utter fool.

The moral issue here is that we aren't taking in enough tax to pay our expenses. The way the government are dealing with this is increasing taxes and borrowing huge amounts of money.

Someone filling an 530 every week is saving about €35, assuming €1.3 for white and €0.8 for green, which is €1800 a year. Assuming that loads of people are doing it then that is a lot of revenue that has to be made up or a lot of cuts have to be made to cover it.

Now what ever about the moral right or wrong of tax evasion, no-one wants to pay tax is they can avoid it. But if this person isn't willing to pay for their choice, no-one forced them to get a 530d, then why should you and I.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of it this country has a huge debt, and we're still borrowing about €20bn annually to run the kip, which that will take generations to pay off. So to all the people here applauding the person in the OPs post for tax evasion fair play to you. But don't forget that it's our children that will bear the brunt of this with less services and even higher taxes.

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

If that's the case then why are the PSNI stopping and fining ROI cars out of Motor Tax. You have to be legal in your country to drive legally in another EU country

They are simply s**t stirring imo. You could drive with expired Irish tax in any other country, including mainland UK for the most part and nothing would be said.

I think its madness Irish tax is absolutely nothing to do with the PSNI, same as UK tax is nothing to do with the Gardai. I was driving on UK reg* for a while and I was stopped once at a garda checkpoint, My expired UK tax was questioned and I more or less said so, its not of concern to the Irish authorities and I was waved on fairly sharpish with a half hearted "get it sorted" as I moved off.

If I was fined for no Irish tax in the north the ticket would exceed the speed of light on its way to the bin.


*No interest in a VRT debate I was entitled to drive.

Nonoperational

daithi2011 wrote: »

I doubt you calmed down at all. You just realized how incredibly stupid and childish you sounded. Congratulations.
Go right ahead though. Id be disappointed now if you didnt email customs. Im looking forward to see how good the people who waste my taxes are. You have my full permission.

To be honest anyone that comes on and lies about things to try and sound cool isn't wort thinking about anymore... Wouldn't believe a word of what your saying. 1200 litre tank full of green diesel, sure. If coming online boasting about things that are most likely untrue floats your boat then more power to you. We all have to get our kicks somewhere.

Ghost Estate

There should be a tax on horses above a certain height.

-Corkie-

There should be a tax on trolling....:p:p

keithclancy

Trinity Tight Jackhammer wrote: »

They are simply s**t stirring imo. You could drive with expired Irish tax in any other country, including mainland UK for the most part and nothing would be said.

I think its madness Irish tax is absolutely nothing to do with the PSNI, same as UK tax is nothing to do with the Gardai. I was driving on UK reg* for a while and I was stopped once at a garda checkpoint, My expired UK tax was questioned and I more or less said so, its not of concern to the Irish authorities and I was waved on fairly sharpish with a half hearted "get it sorted" as I moved off.

If I was fined for no Irish tax in the north the ticket would exceed the speed of light on its way to the bin.


*No interest in a VRT debate I was entitled to drive.

Fraid not, your not meant to be on the road unless your car is road legal in your own country.

Generally speaking they wont bother checking because its too much hassle, but you get the odd diligent young Polizei that will look into it.

And at a border mega checkpoint if you get pulled they will check EVERYTHING.

pajero12

I think the attitude is,The fine is only E1500, Feck it if I get away with it for more than six months Ive already saved that much!

acier

So what would people think of someone using waste veg oil in their car?
Legally it's worse than green diesel, no tax, no VAT paid at all, but people don't get all worked up or go jumping on high horses about it.
Morally, maybe it's the right thing to do, saving the planet and all that green bullsh1t, but anyone doing it (me included) is only doing it because of the cost (mostly free)

Top Dog

Just read the whole thread and made for very interesting reading. Seriously polarising topic.

Only thing that struck me (and was mentioned by another poster but seems to have been missed) is would there be the same moral outrage if the person spotted by the OP was driving a battered old 1.5 Golf diesel? Someone who appeared to be fairly stuck for cash so was saving a few quid where they could and taking the risk on themselves in case they got caught? Is a lot of the bru-ha-ha based on the actual vehicle the person was driving? They have a BMW so hence they must have money and must be able to afford it?

Personally I've considered it, but decided against due to my notoriously bad luck. Got dipped in the summer of 2009 within 3 months of buying my first diesel car, so know that if I tried it now I'd be busted within a week

taintabird

acier wrote: »

So what would people think of someone using waste veg oil in their car?
Legally it's worse than green diesel, no tax, no VAT paid at all, but people don't get all worked up or go jumping on high horses about it.
Morally, maybe it's the right thing to do, saving the planet and all that green bullsh1t, but anyone doing it (me included) is only doing it because of the cost (mostly free)

Legally you are supposed to pay duty on it

acier

taintabird wrote: »

Legally you are supposed to pay duty on it

Yes but it is impossible for a private individual to do so as you have to be registered as a Tax Warehouse.
Another thing, was the 530d a brand spanking new one or an old one, cos a lot of posts seem to be "if he can afford a BMW, he can afford the fuel" an old 530d can be got for a grand or less now.

mfceiling

Too many people worrying about other people tbh.
If they get caught it's tough shít for them.
I'm reporting no-one...i don't know their financial position or if they need to save a few quid because money is tight (government cut-backs and what not).
We all pay taxes of some kind - what about the long term unemployed (never worked a day in their lives) who take a hell of a lot more of your tax dollars than a lad throwing 50 quids worth of green in his motor.

shawnee

mfceiling wrote: »

Too many people worrying about other people tbh.
If they get caught it's tough shít for them.
I'm reporting no-one...i don't know their financial position or if they need to save a few quid because money is tight (government cut-backs and what not).
We all pay taxes of some kind - what about the long term unemployed (never worked a day in their lives) who take a hell of a lot more of your tax dollars than a lad throwing 50 quids worth of green in his motor.

I agree , a lot of boardies seem to have a bit too much time on their hands and have become part time revenue collecoters. Lets get back to doing what you do and the good old MYOB....:D:D

Del2005

acier wrote: »

Another thing, was the 530d a brand spanking new one or an old one, cos a lot of posts seem to be "if he can afford a BMW, he can afford the fuel" an old 530d can be got for a grand or less now.

You can buy a car that does 60mpg for a few hundred Euro. They picked a 3l oil guzzler so should live with the costs. For the annual motor tax on the BMW you could buy and run a more fuel efficient car.

Matt Simis

Del2005 wrote: »

You can buy a car that does 60mpg for a few hundred Euro. They picked a 3l oil guzzler so should live with the costs. For the annual motor tax on the BMW you could buy and run a more fuel efficient car.

Cant really say any of that makes any sense. He may not have bought the car. The guy could have been strapped for cash that month (so what, sell the car? Not easy to sell anyhow), he may have bought the car then lost his job etc etc.

People are building up a profile of a stranger with nothing more than knowing his car make, engine size and that he eats cheap junk food and was confirmed once not paying his "fuel tax". Its insane.

acier

Del2005 wrote: »

You can buy a car that does 60mpg for a few hundred Euro. They picked a 3l oil guzzler so should live with the costs. For the annual motor tax on the BMW you could buy and run a more fuel efficient car.

A 60mpg car for 300 euro, I dare you to prove that.

Matt Simis

acier wrote: »

A 60mpg car for 300 euro, I dare you to prove that.

He will just quote some 1.0l Fiesta off the knackers, its possible but likely not practical/safe/reliable/legal in some combination.

kincaid

the fine for illegal fuel in your car is now €2500 im told... if it goes to court and you lose then its €5000..
was stopped few times and dipped and was told this ...

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

You can buy a car that does 60mpg for a few hundred Euro. They picked a 3l oil guzzler so should live with the costs. For the annual motor tax on the BMW you could buy and run a more fuel efficient car.

Haters gota hate!!!

Del2005

Matt Simis wrote: »

He will just quote some 1.0l Fiesta off the knackers, its possible but likely not practical/safe/reliable/legal in some combination.

It would be as safe and legal as filling up with green diesel.

As for not being able to afford the fuel then they could walk, cycle or bus it, it's not my problem or is it OK for me not to bother with insurance if I can't afford it?

Del2005

Trinity Tight Jackhammer wrote: »

Haters gota hate!!!

I hate tax evasion, not what people drive.

Matt Simis

Del2005 wrote: »

As for not being able to afford the fuel then they could walk, cycle or bus it, it's not my problem or is it OK for me not to bother with insurance if I can't afford it?

Im guessing you dont live outside a city? I assure you none of those options are available to the 40% of the workforce (they live in Rural ireland).

We dont even have taxis here.


BTW, Insurance and Tax are totally different. As Ive said before, Insurance protects you, me and him. Tax does not. Its a variable arbitary thing applied in different amounts to different people with no consideration to their circumstances or any logic (2008 car, diesel, LPG, Veg Oil, petrol, classic car, crew cab.... NONE of it makes sense).
Do not equate Insurance to the fiasco that is Irish tax.


PS: Arguing with you on two threads simultaneously ! :pac:

acier

Del2005 wrote: »

It would be as safe and legal as filling up with green diesel.

As for not being able to afford the fuel then they could walk, cycle or bus it, it's not my problem or is it OK for me not to bother with insurance if I can't afford it?

I'm still waiting for the 60mpg, 300 euro car that YOU say is out there

Senna

Mate of mine works in the local petrol station. The garda Paddy Wagon pulls in and fills up with diesel, the guard comes in to pay for it with a Statoil card but the transaction wont go through. The young girl calls over the manager to help her, he realises the Guard has filled up with Green Diesel and the till system wont let you put Green Diesel on a Statoil Card. The guard looks embarrassed, rushes out to the other Guard in the van and they try and scrap together enough in cash to pay the bill. Of course they dont have enough and it leads to even more embarrassment, they finally speed off after leaving an IOU. Made me laugh:D.

taintabird

Senna wrote: »

Mate of mine works in the local petrol station. The garda Paddy Wagon pulls in and fills up with diesel, the guard comes in to pay for it with a Statoil card but the transaction wont go through. The young girl calls over the manager to help her, he realises the Guard has filled up with Green Diesel and the till system wont let you put Green Diesel on a Statoil Card. The guard looks embarrassed, rushes out to the other Guard in the van and they try and scrap together enough in cash to pay the bill. Of course they dont have enough and it leads to even more embarrassment, they finally speed off after leaving an IOU. Made me laugh:D.

Bet the paid the fine after the booked themselves

gsxr1

Someone told me the custom guys dont even have to dip anymore, They have a some type of device that can tell the difference in the emissions between the good stuff and the cheap stuff.

I dont think the two are refined to the same quality. Altough a lad down my street who fills his X5 with green says it goes grand. He will never be dipped in a beemer and is costing him half on fills.

I like the idea . Screw them. That tax is going straight to the IMF.

Would not do it though.

Senna

Senna wrote: »

Mate of mine works in the local petrol station. The garda Paddy Wagon pulls in and fills up with diesel, the guard comes in to pay for it with a Statoil card but the transaction wont go through. The young girl calls over the manager to help her, he realises the Guard has filled up with Green Diesel and the till system wont let you put Green Diesel on a Statoil Card. The guard looks embarrassed, rushes out to the other Guard in the van and they try and scrap together enough in cash to pay the bill. Of course they dont have enough and it leads to even more embarrassment, they finally speed off after leaving an IOU. Made me laugh:D.

I've put green diesel on my topaz card so this story is obviously nonsense!

-Corkie-

Trinity Tight Jackhammer wrote: »

I've put green diesel on my topaz card so this story is obviously nonsense!

Did you ever hear the saying `never let the truth get in the way of a good story`;)

ashleey

Could we not just have normal diesel and then if you do a job that requires a subsidy, just keep your receipts and get a claim form for a reimbursement? Then we don't need dipping, dyeing, checkpoints etc. Just a thought for us. Maybe the revenue could have an iPhone app to automate your claim? Or we could blame the British again?

Del2005

Del2005 wrote: »

I hate tax evasion, not what people drive.

I hate tax!

ashleey wrote: »

Could we not just have normal diesel and then if you do a job that requires a subsidy, just keep your receipts and get a claim form for a reimbursement? Then we don't need dipping, dyeing, checkpoints etc. Just a thought for us. Maybe the revenue could have an iPhone app to automate your claim? Or we could blame the British again?

A system like that would be either open to abuse of unfair. For instance we have a 1000 litre tank of green diesel for farm use, if it was just normal diesel and you claimed back some of the tax as it was for the farm you could just use it in the car too.

ashleey

And maybe we should get rid of the whole subsidy and enforcement regime and then you can put what you like in your car and your tractor? I thought there were single farm payments etc?

Del2005

Trinity Tight Jackhammer wrote: »

I hate tax!

I hate it also, but it's one of only 2 certainties, so I try and avoid as much as possible.

ashleey

ashleey wrote: »

And maybe we should get rid of the whole subsidy and enforcement regime and then you can put what you like in your car and your tractor? I thought there were single farm payments etc?

The single farm payment is for putting food on the table not for paying the costs of road diesel in a tractor. It's not just tractors than can use green diesel it's more or less anything that runs on diesel except cars and jeeps.

Plenty of people use green diesel apart from farmers. You won't find many boats running on road diesel for instance.

Matt Simis

Trinity Tight Jackhammer wrote: »

Plenty of people use green diesel apart from farmers. You won't find many boats running on road diesel for instance.

They were allowed to do that up until recently however.

ashleey

So the system is stupid? Can't we find an easier way of 'putting food on the table'.

Matt Simis

ashleey wrote: »

So the system is stupid? Can't we find an easier way of 'putting food on the table'.

What about what he did wasnt easy?