What Joe Jordan said to Gattuso

pickarooney

forzacalcio wrote: »

Ah yes, another section of the tunnel vision crew! The type there is absolutely no point in engaging in a conversation!

Well, you'll need to make some kind of a point instead of a succession of non-sequiturs for there to be a discussion. What parallel are you trying to draw, exactly?

101001 wrote:

So to the indignant shouters of racism...

Having been sufficiently pissed off by someone you have never uttered the phrase "dirty <choose your descriptor*> bastard"... Never?! Really!?

*Ginger, English, spotty, Mexican, four-eyed,

In as much as it's Ok to make personal insults, "spotty", "four-eyed" and "ginger" come under this heading. It does assume that there is something inherently negative about having acne, wearing glasses or having ginger hair and if uttered with genuine malice it's simply not on.

Black/Mexican/English are not personal insults - by involving these traits, you're implying that it someone who is black/Mexican/English is de facto your inferior and moreover that whatever other adjective you're ascribing to the person are inherent, negative traits of that group.

Nobody is particularly pround of having acne, and it's a passing phase.
I don't think anyone genuinely dislikes everyone who wears glasses - that would be mental.
The ginger one is a genuinely grey area - ginger jokes have been going on for so long I'm not sure there isn't some genuine spite in them.

Some people, unfortunately, do have it in for black, English or Mexican people so outside of a clearly friendly exchange it's very difficult to wave away an insult which involves these.

That's my take on it anyway.

Mr. Presentable

deisedevil wrote: »

How many players get abused week in, week out? How many act like Gattuso did?

Players shouldn't have to listen to abuse from anyone but they can't headbutt them for it just like I can't headbutt someone in the street if he shouts abuse at me.

If Joe Jordan gets a ban then imagine the future bans, where will it end?

Did Materazzi get a ban for provoking Zidane?

ShooterSF

stovelid wrote: »

Lot of conjecture that he said Italian when it suits Gatusso's people to make that claim.

My personal feeling is that dirty Italian bastard isn't necessarily as bad as dirty black bastard depending on the intent. Jordan might have meant it in the context of the near-constant bad smell of gamesmanship and cheating that some Italians consistently bring (amongst other nationalities of course) to football. If you follow that line of thinking, I myself have probably often thought dirty Italian (or insert other country) bastard because you're lazily associating that player with a prevalent football culture of a particular country. For me - and it's paradoxical and just conjecture obviously - it's different to saying you are simply a black or Italian bastard in an overall sense or that being, say, black genetically makes you a cheat despite the football culture of your country or the way you play football yourself.

IIRC, Jordan was well-liked during his time in Milan and remains a fan's favourite (they called him The Shark) - not so much for his record there but for being a committed and tough forward - so I'm not sure he's racist toward Italians.

It's also stupid to equate on-field gamesmanship (where you sneakily and deliberately set out to get players done) to saying something off-pitch in the heat of the moment.

So if I could show black players dive more regularly then it would be ok?

Generalisations are either fine or not. I'm as un-pc as you like and actually see eagle eyes point.

Renn

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Did Materazzi get a ban for provoking Zidane?

Yes, a ban of two games and a fine. Possibly the most ridiculous decision I've ever heard of - definitely a case of backing Zidane in all of this. Imagine being on the receiving end of a headbutt and having to face a suspension?

stovelid

Renn wrote: »

Yes, a ban of two games and a fine. Possibly the most ridiculous decision I've ever heard of - definitely a case of backing Zidane in all of this. Imagine being on the receiving end of a headbutt and having to face a suspension?

If he can sleep at night when his main claim to fame is being a carthorse that had to insult the family of one of the game's greatest players to gain a competitive advantage, I doubt a ban would have him tossing and turning.

ShooterSF wrote: »

So if I could show black players dive more regularly then it would be ok? .

Can you?

101001

pickarooney wrote: »

In as much as it's Ok to make personal insults, "spotty", "four-eyed" and "ginger" come under this heading. It does assume that there is something inherently negative about having acne, wearing glasses or having ginger hair and if uttered with genuine malice it's simply not on.

Yes we understand them as stereotype and the stereotype paints them in a negative manner. We can know stereotype and still not believe all are as the stereotype proclaims

Black/Mexican/English are not personal insults - by involving these traits, you're implying that it someone who is black/Mexican/English is de facto your inferior and moreover that whatever other adjective you're ascribing to the person are inherent, negative traits of that group.

The fact that he uses 'dirty' and 'bastard'. Jordan is already attempting to make Gattuso know that he is inferior to him. He also invokes the stereotypical idea of an 'Italian'. We all understand sterotypes... being Irish Im probably drunk and fighting while writing this. The insult is not levied at all Italians but at Gattuso I dont think that Jordan can be condemmed as a prejudiced person. He is expressing in an inulting manner that Gatusso is inferior to him

Some people, unfortunately, do have it in for black, English or Mexican people so outside of a clearly friendly exchange it's very difficult to wave away an insult which involves these.

That's my take on it anyway.

I tend to think that insults are seperate to the meaning of the word. They are insulting because the word is percieved by most as an insult. And to insult someone certain 'insulting' words need to be used.

Jordan saying 'you sir are soiled, of the itlatic peoples and concieved outside of wedlock'... hasnt got the same ring to it.

I was merely making the observation earlier that almost all of us at one stage would have used similar terms when angry. We are doing it to wound and the harshness of the words helps it cut deeper. It doesnt automatically decree that we hold wide sweeping prejudiced views of dirty people, Italians or Children born out of wedlock. We still understand the stereotypes and we can attack insecurities in that.

Renn

stovelid wrote: »

If he can sleep at night when his main claim to fame is being a carthorse that had to insult the family of one of the game's greatest players to gain a competitive advantage, I doubt a ban would have him tossing and turning.

I didn't mention anything about him not getting any sleep at night - I'm sure he does just fine knowing that he has a winner's medal and scored in the final and in the shootout.

I was highlighting the fact that it was a ridiculous decision to ban/fine the guy.

yabadabado

forzacalcio wrote: »

Ah yes, another section of the tunnel vision crew! The type there is absolutely no point in engaging in a conversation!

nothing to do with tunnel vision and nothing to do with race why Paul McGrath was called the Black Pearl of Inchicore.If you knew what a black pearl was you wouldn't have brought it up.

PARKHEAD67

homerjay2005 wrote: »

am i the only person that sees nothing wrong with what jordan said, if thats what he said......thats normal, heat of the moment stuff, ive no problem with it and theres nothing wrong with that IMO. doesnt need to be said of course, but i could think of a lot worse things that could be said and they are making a big deal out of it.

no excuse for gatusso, he acted like psycho all night.

Gattuso's been a clown since way back in his rangers days.What a muppet.The state of him against Spurs.He belongs in a lunatic asylum.

stovelid

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Gattuso's been a clown because of his since way back in his rangers days.What a muppet.The state of him against Spurs.He belongs in a lunatic asylum.

Fixed.

PARKHEAD67

stovelid wrote: »

Fixed.

Not really "fixed". Gatusso's an idiot.Acting all hard-the little tramp.Him having played for the rangers has nothing to do with this.He had a Milan shirt on the other night when he proved to the world what a 100% madman he is.I'll admit he might have learned his headbutt technique at the rangers though.The "Glasgow kiss" was a weapon used by Duncan Ferguson on the Ibrox pitch after all when he was a gers hero.( V raith in 94.He got sent to jail for it though).:D

peabutler

Gattuso is a good leader on the pitch. He was a fantastic player in his prime and he can still do a very good job in the slower paced games in Serie A, he may have lost the plot on Tuesday but so what players do stupid things week in week out and we don't have Sky Sports making a Huge deal about it, the Valencia Inter game a few years ago was havoc and I don't remember this sort of reaction, most people thought it was hilarious.

Iago

This is going to be a final warning on this, if you continue to question moderation on thread or try and moderate yourself then you will be banned from the forum.

Renn wrote: »

Hold on a sec, is that post being completely ignored by the mods?

Mister men wrote: »

Looks that way. Lot of that going on at the moment.

Now in relation to the above, what exactly is it that you think is being ignored?

PARKHEAD67

peabutler wrote: »

Gattuso is a good leader on the pitch. He was a fantastic player in his prime and he can still do a very good job in the slower paced games in Serie A, he may have lost the plot on Tuesday but so what players do stupid things week in week out and we don't have Sky Sports making a Huge deal about it, the Valencia Inter game a few years ago was havoc and I don't remember this sort of reaction, most people thought it was hilarious.

Headbutting someone is just about the lowest of the low IMO.Disgraceful antics.

PARKHEAD67

peabutler wrote: »

Gattuso is a good leader on the pitch. He was a fantastic player in his prime and he can still do a very good job in the slower paced games in Serie A, he may have lost the plot on Tuesday but so what players do stupid things week in week out and we don't have Sky Sports making a Huge deal about it, the Valencia Inter game a few years ago was havoc and I don't remember this sort of reaction, most people thought it was hilarious.

Gattuso was never a "fantastic player" FFS. He tried to elbow Jordan in the face earlier in the game,tried to batter Crouch, started battering the ground like a little baby when he was booked, and finally headbutted a grandfather.I'm not going to say what I think of him or I'll be banned.But for Gods sake stop defending him.Bloody hell, if he did that in the street He'd get jail. Duncan Ferguson was sent to jail for headbutting a player on the pitch.So why not Gattuso??

Iago

eagle eye wrote: »

No I'm not. If you think its perfectly fine to call Drogba a cheating bastard in that situation then its perfectly fine to say that Drobga is a cheating black bastard.

mod

Judging by the reported posts I'm going to take it that this is the post that it's being referred to as being "ignored" by the moderators. I've read it a couple of times now just in case there was some hidden message that I missed, but I don't think there is. So, I'm not ignoring it. I don't see anything that could be construed as racist or abusive in it.

/mod

It's a point of debate that is more suited to elsewhere than to here, the impact of calling someone a "cheating (insert racial/societal/national term here) bastard" on a psychological basis will vary from player to player obviously and will be felt more keenly where the term in question has been on the receiving end of any type of inequality for any period of time.

I can see the point being made by eagle eye, why should questioning someone's parentage be any less offensive than questioning their national heritage or skin colour. If you're in for a penny you might as well be in for a pound. If you're willing to verbally abuse someone, then what's the difference with adding a word?

It's distasteful to me personally and, on those rare occasions, when someone prefaces any conversation with "he's black/chinese/Indian" whatever when it is has no relevance to the conversation they automatically drop dramatically in my opinion.

JPA

Poor modding IMO.

adox

Racist remarks aren't racism?

The mind boggles.

stovelid

JPA wrote: »

Poor modding IMO.

The opposite, actually.

peabutler

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Gattuso was never a "fantastic player" FFS. He tried to elbow Jordan in the face earlier in the game,tried to batter Crouch, started battering the ground like a little baby when he was booked, and finally headbutted a grandfather.I'm not going to say what I think of him or I'll be banned.But for Gods sake stop defending him.Bloody hell, if he did that in the street He'd get jail. Duncan Ferguson was sent to jail for headbutting a player on the pitch.So why not Gattuso??

How does that relate to the rest of your post? He was a fantastic player in his prime for AC Milan and one game doesn't change that, do you remember the job he did on an almost unplayable C.Ronaldo a few seasons ago? He was a natural leader and his extreme physical ability combined with his work rate and ferocious (usually) controlled aggression made him one of the most desirable DM's of his era, you don't have a couple a Champions League's medals a World Cup medal and Serie A medal if your a poor player.