M4 Kilcock to Kinnegad Toll - not worth it

westtip

CIE wrote: »

It's going to be less affordable if they keep jamming up the old N4. The repair bills on their cars are guaranteed to rise. Are people making that much less money that €29 per week can't be spared, especially since you're paying far more than that to fill the tank and still more than that to replace brakes, worry about worn clutch plates, repair/replace suspension parts etc., all of which will have to be performed more often by driving the old road? (and those repairs will have to come out of the credit card if money is really that tight) But by all means, if tax increases are really that affordable to pay for the motorway's upkeep, lobby for those (of course, all that excise tax like that big 4c/litre increase, never mind the "carbon tax", is so affordable, so let's have more of that)...not that anyone would use the motorway if it's toll-free, according to some of the reasoning on here, right?—but people are still using the motorway where the tolls are deemed "reasonable" (cheap), so it's not any of that at all.There are tacit admissions on this thread of frequent motorway use not related to concerns about fuel economy, so long as the tolls are perceived as cheap. So it's not any other concern. Has average income dropped that low?

Oh, not everyone has the luxury of working 45 weeks out of 52 weeks in a year.

€29 a week maintenance because you choose to go down the old N4 - you are having a laugh aren't you. My 45 weeks was based on 5 weeks holiday and or sickness plus the national holidays taking off, you can add another couple of weeks if you want - it only makes the economic argument stronger.

I was listening to morning ireland this morning my ears pricked up - I am sure AA Roadwatch said traffic inbound on the N4 between Enfield and Kilcock was exceptionally heavy - Ah toll dodgers I thought. did anyone else hear that?

People aren't making less money in their gross wages but net wages thanks to the social injustice charges are down - people are looking very carefully at outgoings if they can save €29 a week that is significant.

ohnoigotsick

westtip wrote: »

I was listening to morning ireland this morning my ears pricked up - I am sure AA Roadwatch said traffic inbound on the N4 between Enfield and Kilcock was exceptionally heavy - Ah toll dodgers I thought. did anyone else hear that?

Road crash , one person dead - may explain the heavy traffic.

Saruman

ohnoigotsick wrote: »

Road crash , one person dead - may explain the heavy traffic.

That was the day before. Yesterday was fine. There was a point where traffic came to a halt for a few minutes but I suspect its because a slow bus pulled out in front of the queue of traffic and that sent a ripple of brake lights to the point where traffic stopped. Phantom traffic jam.

There was a bus at the front of the traffic queue and nothing in front of it.

westtip

ohnoigotsick wrote: »

Road crash , one person dead - may explain the heavy traffic.

sorry to hear that - I am an occassional user of the route and TBH tend to use the motorway simply because I drive past the junction before I realise it, but safety I guess is the main reason for staying on the motorway, but the cost is pretty harsh on daily commuters.

SeanW

CIE wrote: »

False argument. Mischaracterising payment of tolls as "discretionary spending" won't make the matter suddenly valid, nor will it make the problem of automobile wear and tear disappear.

Well, I bought my first car, a 99 Avensis back in 2009 and since then I've done a fair bit of semi-long distance travel, and a lot of hard city/rural driving. In particular I've been using the N4/R148 on a semi-regular basis for a while now. I've spent shag all on car maintenance but saved easily €100 so far dodging tolls mainly the M4 one, and I doubt very strongly that I've racked up anything resembling €2.90/trip in wear and tear using the R148 Kilcock-Kinnegad.

It's a luxury.

OK, so it's not tacit but open.So now they're "hordes of traffic"? How slow are these "hordes" driving thanks to being "hordes"...? because that is going to make fuel consumption go up more than driving on the motorway. (As well as wear and tear.)

I can't speak for them as I normally go against the flow and see this rolling monument to policy failure going the other direction. Although not always

Car repairs are a bigger dent in "discretionary spending" than toll payments.

Maybe if you have a super-crappy car, like a 20 year old Fiat or a Lada. Your argument is irrelevant to anyone who drives a Toyota for example. Also car repairs are not "discretionary spending" if your car needs to be fixed, it needs to be fixed, end of. It's not like a daily newspaper, visit to a cafe or a night on the beer, which are discretionary. Interesting that you now admit tolls are discretionary spending as you earlier accused me - quite stunningly I thought - of "Mischaracterising payment of tolls as "discretionary spending""

And how do you know that the toll-free motorways aren't "putting the government in the poorhouse"?

Five minutes on Google will prove otherwise, here's a quick graph showing government expenditure by department for 2010.

http://www.sliabh.net/?p=2397

Transport is one of those little unmarked white slivers amounting to less than 5%. And that's the total transport budget of which motorway maintenance is likely only a small fraction. You're grasping at straws.

Do drivers dodge these roads to allegedly increase their mileage as well...? (But it's only at the perceived high-toll location that they get off the motorway. So fascinating.)

I don't think anyone gets off the motorway to save fuel as you can always stay in the driving lane and do 90kph. Any fuel savings associated with lower speeds on R roads is a bonus, nothing more. People get off the motorway to avoid the toll - that much has been made fairly clear, I don't understand you confusion on that point.

It wasn't me that was "rationalising", BTW.

If you say so ...

Loveless

n97 mini wrote: »

I saw on a blog somewhere that the increased speed on the M4 vs the N4 was costing the blogger in extra fuel too, something like 75 cent, and that sticking to the speed limit on both roads the difference between them was only 5 minutes. I know people who use this toll ten times a week. A tolled motorway network is FF's legacy. It's so that we will never forget them.

Just to let you know, the tolls are now reduced on the M4 following the M1 court decision last week.
Down to only €4.10 for me each way now, bargain!

http://www.eurolink-m4.ie/index.aspx?menu=2&context=1

westtip

Came back from Bray area the other day - mid week left early on Wednesday morning around 6.35 am departure straigth onto M11/M50/N4 seamless wonderful - but left without breakfast, dipped off the N4 at Kilcock to head for Mother Hubards, Traffic streaming inbound astonished me!

€5.99 two rashers, two sausages, two eggs, black and white pudding - large pot of tea more than enough brown bread, and toast and butter and jam than I could cater for - plus a Free copy of the Indo to take away and enough tea in the pot to fill my flask mug for the car.

Save €2.70 on the single toll journey, total "cost" of breakfast: €3.29 Great value!

In future this will be my option - if I have the time!

Spoke to a couple of truckers - both private truck owners - never use the toll simply cannot afford it four or five times a week. spoke to a white van man chippy, no chance he said, only if I am in a mega hurry will I use the toll it just costs too much over a long period of time.

My observation of the volume of traffic coming down the slip road to join the inbound N4 at Kilcock and the simple fact that between the time I was on the old N4 from Kilcock to Mother Hubards, the stream of traffic was a car every 20 yards coming inbound - would seem to suggest that car commuters from the Kinegad/Enfield environs are simply not using the toll road in very large numbers. It was almost impossible to overtake westbound due to the volume of inbound traffic - it's as if the motorway does not exist - As said if in a hurry and on a tight schedule I will use the Motorway for my occasional trips to Das Kapital but the value for money is in the breakfast and taking life a bit easier.

Saruman

As Loveless said, The M4 is now €2.70 for a car! It has actually dropped by .20c

westtip

Saruman wrote: »

As Loveless said, The M4 is now €2.70 for a car! It has actually dropped by .20c

amended my figure from 2.80 to 2.70 - I know what you mean but it is simply apparent from the times I have used the alternative route early mornings going west that the M4 is not bringing in a very a large number of daily commuters from the Enfield Kinnegad area. Yes of course the M4 has volume on it but I reckon it must be operating massively below capacity. I just wonder if they dropped the toll significantly - and I mean really cut the price -would pile them high sell them cheap actually work better as a business model. If for example it was €1 to use the road for a car - would this shift the toll dodgers onto the motorway in high enough volume?

Saruman

Perhaps a daily commuter special price. Get a Tag if you have not got one and if you live along the commuter route then and depend on the road then you only get charged that €1 each way.

Not sure that is likely though.

westtip

Saruman wrote: »

Perhaps a daily commuter special price. Get a Tag if you have not got one and if you live along the commuter route then and depend on the road then you only get charged that €1 each way.

Not sure that is likely though.

Its no skin off my nose what they do - I am not one of the unfortunates using this route daily. If I use it once a month that would be the most, but I am convinced the route is failing as a business judging by the volume using the old road. Your idea Saruman is creative - but it requires the users to be proactive to get a Tag, and many may not want to do this. Many TAG users may not be as price sensitive, (business expense perhaps or simply don't care about the cost). Price and elasticity of demand come to mind though. I reckon the pricing on the M4 is a huge issue for potential regular users, and to attract in those regular customers the M4 is missing out on they are either going to do something about it or just accept the situation, but the current volumes mean the new road is massively under utilised.

L1011

There isn't enough dodging traffic for reducing the toll drastically to actually pay off, its not like the M6 Toll in the UK where about 80% of the potential traffic uses the M6 Free and the toll is ridiculously high.

If they could bring it below the €2 barrier it'd seem less bad, ditto the €4 level for light commercials (which would be comparatively much less of a drop).

westtip

MYOB wrote: »

There isn't enough dodging traffic for reducing the toll drastically to actually pay off, its not like the M6 Toll in the UK where about 80% of the potential traffic uses the M6 Free and the toll is ridiculously high.

If they could bring it below the €2 barrier it'd seem less bad, ditto the €4 level for light commercials (which would be comparatively much less of a drop).

I dunno not seen the numbers, but have seen the masses of vehicles inbound early in the morning on the old N4 and also witnessed just how quiet the motorway is inbound at the same time, it suggests to me a high volume is toll dodging, especially commuters. It would be interesting to see the actual vehicle count in the mornings joining at Kilkock and the numbers on the road between Enfield and Kilcock. I am sure they must have the figures, in the meantime I will stick with my deal at Mother Hubbards!

L1011

The motorway loses ~16,000 of its ~39,000 AADT at the Kilcock junction. Not all of this is toll dodge traffic - some is heading to Clane/Naas or Trim/Summerhill/Athboy as well as Kilcock itself.

10k or less compared to 23k on the motorway, some of that 10k will never, ever use the toll unless its made entirely free.

westtip

MYOB wrote: »

The motorway loses ~16,000 of its ~39,000 AADT at the Kilcock junction. Not all of this is toll dodge traffic - some is heading to Clane/Naas or Trim/Summerhill/Athboy as well as Kilcock itself.

10k or less compared to 23k on the motorway, some of that 10k will never, ever use the toll unless its made entirely free.

are these vehicle per day figures? would be interested to see a vehicle count from Enfield to Kilcock in the mornings and the amount joining the M4 at Kilcock eastbound between 7.00 and 9.00 am - I bet its significant.

L1011

They are.

There's time of day figures too, its all on the NRA website, knock yourself out. Just remember that not all traffic exiting at Kilcock is going to use the R148 as I said - Naas/Clane and Trim/Summerhill as well as Kilcock itself use this.