How would you open town to traffic?

blobbyblob

Its a spin off from the "Pure Gone" thread but its as plain as the nose on our collective urbanite faces - Waterford City Centre is dying.

Kilkenny city shopkeepers revolted recently with the introduction of a one way system which they feared would cripple an already struggling trading environment - they won and the two way traffic has been restored to the betterment of the town. Common sense in action.

Limerick City - Traffic right through city centre with Pedestrian streets off main through road, Galway City - Same, Dublin - Same

One advantage that Kilkenny had over Waterford until now was that it had a decent infrastructure to divert passing traffic around the town. Waterford City planners no longer should have that fear to the same extent with the introduction of the by pass.

The concept is simple. Cars Carry Cash!

My question to you. Would you reopen traffic through town? If yes?How would you reopen traffic to town?
1 way? 2 way? Clock Tower to Lady Lane, Clock Tower to Apple Market? Would you have any restrictions? Set down areas, Wide Footpaths?

Once this thread is finished, I have another question on the back of it...

Bards

cars don't shop - people do.

What's needed is decent Park & Ride facilities to bring the people into a Car Free City Centre.

FadeStGal

blobbyblob wrote: »

Its a spin off from the "Pure Gone" thread but its as plain as the nose on our collective urbanite faces - Waterford City Centre is dying.

Kilkenny city shopkeepers revolted recently with the introduction of a one way system which they feared would cripple an already struggling trading environment - they won and the two way traffic has been restored to the betterment of the town. Common sense in action.

Limerick City - Traffic right through city centre with Pedestrian streets off main through road, Galway City - Same, Dublin - Same

One advantage that Kilkenny had over Waterford until now was that it had a decent infrastructure to divert passing traffic around the town. Waterford City planners no longer should have that fear to the same extent with the introduction of the by pass.

The concept is simple. Cars Carry Cash!

My question to you. Would you reopen traffic through town? If yes?How would you reopen traffic to town?
1 way? 2 way? Clock Tower to Lady Lane, Clock Tower to Apple Market? Would you have any restrictions? Set down areas, Wide Footpaths?

Once this thread is finished, I have another question on the back of it...

No traffic gimmick is going to fix Waterford.

/thread

Next!

FSG X

fricatus

Jesus, look at the Quay, Summerhill, the Mall, Parnell St any day - and you say you want more cars down around the town? :eek:

If you want people in the city, then you need a mix of employment and retail that attracts people in. The McCann brigade and their objection to the Newgate Centre were the biggest disaster to befall Waterford. Because of their mentality, that shopping centre wasn't built, and won't be now for another 10 years.

People travel from Kilkenny, where I work, to Newbridge (Newbridge, FFS!!!) to shop in Zara, M&S, H&M, etc. When I ask why they don't go to Waterford, they snigger, and say "the shopping there is sh!t, just like in Kilkenny".

The worst thing for me about Kilkenny (which is otherwise a very attractive place) is all the cars down the High St, John St and Rose Inn St. You can't pass someone with a buggy without walking out onto the road. How the hell would a return to that be a good thing for Waterford?

fricatus

Bards wrote: »

cars don't shop - people do.

What's needed is decent Park & Ride facilities to bring the people into a Car Free City Centre.

+1

You're not a taxi driver by any chance, blobbyblob? :cool:

kayaksurfbum

The Shops in Kilkenny said they preferred the one way system, it got traffic moving quicker and people were able to pull up on a kerd and run into shops. Illegal as it is it gave business to the city center. Most of the parking in KK is private so they(private car park owners) wanted it changed back.

pocketvenus

To add to the whole debate of parking in the city and people complaining about having to pay to park in city.

They would want to remember that alot of people live in the city and own cars and it is not fair that they should have no place to park their cars.

I give you an example my boyfriend lives in the city and for years he and his family could not park anywhere on their street as people used to just drive in dump the cars and walk to work /town. So then when paid parking came in he has to has to pay €15 a year to park his car on his street, does not entitle him to a parking place and if if he cannot find a place he has to pay for his parking down the road. So why should he be expected to pay for parking and nobody else is, he lives there.
Still he see's every day people just parking their cars and not bothering paying as they take the risk that the parking warden will not be up every day. So he has to pay twice at times for his car.

If you want to park in the city, well you should have to pay.

As someone said if there were park and ride facilites coming in from Dunmore Rd, outside city it would be more beneficial.

fricatus

pocketvenus wrote: »

he has to has to pay €15 a year to park his car on his street

Oh the poor lamb!

But yeah, I take the rest of your post on board. People in Waterford and in Ireland generally want to be able to drive right up to the door of any shop without any care of who they're inconveniencing, be it local residents, people with buggies, the old, those in wheelchairs, etc.

FFS, there's plenty of parking down town and it doesn't cost too much, just as long as you're prepared to walk for five minutes. I always park in either the Aldi car park or else the Clyde Wharf (just before the Willie Wallie Plaza) and I can always get a space. It doesn't break the bank either.

A mate of mine was being "glic" by parking on Cathedral Square, and I objected to this practice, since it's illegal (albeit unpunished) and it ruins what little bit of nice ambience there is down there. He just couldn't see my argument at all, that he could park in the Clyde Wharf and walk for a whole extra minute.

His point was that someone else would just park in CS then. He had a point, but we have no bloody civic pride if we're prepared to have vehicles clustering around a central architectural gem, like something you'd see in bloody Uzbekistan!

dayshah

I'm not convinced that pedestrianisation is the problem, but we could experiment for 6 months. I'd go for a one-way system with contra-flow cycling. A one-way system allows for more parking spaces.

One other issue is the new bridge. In London there is a congestion charge to keep people out of the centre. For us, someone going to Cork has to pay to avoid the city centre. I would remove the toll (not in the council's power I know) so that the city is kept for those that use it.

O Riain

blobbyblob wrote: »

Its a spin off from the "Pure Gone" thread but i Limerick City - Traffic right through city centre with Pedestrian streets off main through road, Galway City - Same, Dublin - Same

One advantage that Kilkenny had over Waterford until now was that it had a decent infrastructure to divert passing traffic around the town. Waterford City planners no longer should have that fear to the same extent with the introduction of the by pass.

The concept is simple. Cars Carry Cash!

Limerick is a nightmare, heavily congested, noisy, dirty, there's no sense of relaxation in the city centre because of the traffic, and you can't just park on Henry street or O connell street the two of the main streets In the town. Also Limerick city in it's own way is dying, they bought into the whole outer circle developments, I.e the crescent and the centre is in a shockin state cause of it, not much better than us despite having a population of about double. Without attacking Limerick either, the place is as dirty as everyone says and we should be glad to have an attractive clean city centre at these times.

Psychedelic

John Roberts Square is grand as it is now, I'd hate to see cars driving up through there. Un-pedestrianising that area is just a stupid idea. Traffic through the city is fine, and if you want to park your car there are plenty of places to do so, just not right outside the shop - it's supposed to be a city centre, not a fucking village.

kayaksurfbum wrote: »

The Shops in Kilkenny said they preferred the one way system, it got traffic moving quicker and people were able to pull up on a kerd and run into shops. Illegal as it is it gave business to the city center. Most of the parking in KK is private so they(private car park owners) wanted it changed back.

The shops/traders in Kilkenny were against the system:

Local businesses, led by John Street traders and prominent vintner Eamon Langton, met to voice their outrage on Thursday night. Traders have begun a petition to have the one-way system stopped and will present it at Monday's Borough Council meeting.

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local/call_for_one_way_to_be_abolished_immediately_1_2171186

More:
http://www.advertiser.ie/kilkenny/article/24684
http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local/u_turn_on_one_way_1_2171405
http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/local/one_way_causes_traffic_chaos_1_2171173

blobbyblob

fricatus wrote: »

+1

You're not a taxi driver by any chance, blobbyblob? :cool:

No - I'm not a taxi driver

As regards to KK people going to shop in Newbridge, I dont think its a reflection on KKs selection of shops which happens to be very good. I think its just the ladies like a day out somewhere new. I dont think Mrs Ryan will be heading off to do her weekly shop in Dunnes Stores Newbridge.

Limerick and Waterford are at extremes as regards traffic conjestion but Limerick at least has the option to let you drive to the centre of town.

If Waterford were to open its city centre streets in the morning, the 10 pedestrians who shop in there would want to run for cover.

Waterford has created an oasis of wilderness and over the last 10 years succeeded in strangling the life out of itself. John Roberts square has soooo much potential its ridiculous - sadly, it looks like we're on life support and the prognosis is not good.

Theres only so much you can blame a recession on but when you sit on your hands and do nothing - that's bordering on criminal.

blobbyblob

O Riain wrote: »

We should be glad to have an attractive clean city centre at these times.

I don't doubt it for a second. It does sadden me that its potential isn't maximised. I'm not saying that reintroducing traffic is THE answer but it is an answer.

If it was done, it could be tastefully done with no parking along the route - set down only

I think there needs to be fresh thinking on attracting new business types in the city centre with corporation rate concessions granted to those that will attract in shoppers and make it as pleasurable experience as possible.

As with anything - you can pat yourself on the back and say you're great at 10 things but how do you ever improve if you cant recognise your failings.

blobbyblob

Bards wrote: »

cars don't shop - people do.

What's needed is decent Park & Ride facilities to bring the people into a Car Free City Centre.

Cars carry {_ _ _ _ _ _}

I'm not a snob but I don't want to get on a bus to get to a shop or worse again, sit on a bus with 6 bags of shopping between my legs to get back to my car.

dayshah

pocketvenus wrote: »

They would want to remember that alot of people live in the city and own cars and it is not fair that they should have no place to park their cars.

But if you don't own the street why would you have the right to park there?

I don't think residents should automatically have the right to park in the centre. You can't have the suburban dream in the centre.

I would make an exception of having some spaces for older people/ disabled people. I don't think they should have to walk for 5/10 minutes.


I mentioned on the Pure thread, but its more relevant here, my idea of excavating Ballybricken or the Glen, putting in an underground car park (for residents or shoppers) and covering it over again with grass. That way we get our parking and our green spaces. We can sell the excavated earth to the yanks
I think the glen would look class if the cars were hidden underground and there was a nice green area/little park. They do this in lots of other cities in Europe.

Bards

blobbyblob wrote: »

Cars carry {_ _ _ _ _ _}

I'm not a snob but I don't want to get on a bus to get to a shop or worse again, sit on a bus with 6 bags of shopping between my legs to get back to my car.

And Waterfordians are different to the rest of the civilised World - Why?

How do people put up with it in London, Paris, etc.

Joey leBlanc

Re-introducing traffic flow from say the Clock Tower to Johns Street via Barronstrand St/Michael St is a terrible idea on so many levels.

People would automatically use is as a short cut accross town. I for one remember traffic back up along the route in both directions b4 pedestrianisation took effect.

No matter how well it was policed someone would always stop to let a passenger out -or- just park "just for a second" to run into a shop etc. etc.

Traffic flow may give the illusion of life in the city centre but essentially the majority of it is just passing thru. Look abroad at similar sized towns/cities to Waterford which have beautiful paved/pedestrianised streets like ourselves, uncluttered by cars etc.

In conclusion its not traffic but the powers that be i.e. Wfd City Council, that are to blame for the disintergration of the city centre core. What they need is a radical change in town planning. Bring in a foreign architect/planner & aske him his opinions a.s.a.p!

blobbyblob

Bards wrote: »

And Waterfordians are different to the rest of the civilised World - Why?

How do people put up with it in London, Paris, etc.

I spoke for myself and no one else. Not saying its a bad idea. Just not for me!

pocketvenus

dayshah wrote: »

But if you don't own the street why would you have the right to park there?

I don't think residents should automatically have the right to park in the centre. You can't have the suburban dream in the centre.

I would make an exception of having some spaces for older people/ disabled people. I don't think they should have to walk for 5/10 minutes.


I mentioned on the Pure thread, but its more relevant here, my idea of excavating Ballybricken or the Glen, putting in an underground car park (for residents or shoppers) and covering it over again with grass. That way we get our parking and our green spaces. We can sell the excavated earth to the yanks
I think the glen would look class if the cars were hidden underground and there was a nice green area/little park. They do this in lots of other cities in Europe.

When they are being forced to pay to park there they should have a right to park on their street and not be made pay twice because someone from outside the city think they have the right to come ino town and park wherever they like without having to pay or not bothering. Problem in this city is people think they have a right to park wherver they like without consideration for anyone else. In other countires it works that way certain amount of spaces are reserved for residents and rest are open to public.

Esiest way to slove problem is have a certain amount or parking spaces reserved for residents who pay for them and the rest are pay and dispaly as per normal.

As you said there are plenty of creative ways to increase parking without space damaging any green space etc.

dayshah

pocketvenus wrote: »

When they are being forced to pay to park there they should have a right to park on their street and not be made pay twice because someone from outside the city think they have the right to come ino town and park wherever they like without having to pay or not bothering. Problem in this city is people think they have a right to park wherver they like without consideration for anyone else. In other countires it works that way certain amount of spaces are reserved for residents and rest are open to public.

I think it would be fair if residents could rent a street place from the council near their home. Maybe they could even do special deals. For example, you could get a special deal if you park it outside your house/apartment Sunday to Friday, but on a Saturday you keep it somewhere else. Or pay more and have it there all week.

THall04

I thought pedestrianisation of the city centre was great at first , but I've since changed my mind , I agree with the OP , it has killed off a lot of business.

I wouldn't fully re-open the roads though.

In Newcastle a few years back , I got stopped by a policeman for driving in an area reserved for taxi's and bus only , up to 7pm (thought I'd get away with it , it was 6:50pm on a Sunday evening....but I didnt)

In Waterford I'd have a one way system for taxi's and small busses only , from Barronstrand St ....up Broad St , with two exits at Jenkins lane and the lights at the end of Patrick street.
Open a bus stop and taxi rank at the cathedral and Pennys.

Broad street is too deserted after 6pm....scares the tourists away.
If there was some some sort of presence there ,e.g a few waiting taxis , it would encourage more people to use that area in the evenings and open up the possibility of bars/restaurants opening there.

And no.....I'am NOT a taxi driver....

blobbyblob

THall04 wrote: »

Broad street is too deserted after 6pm....scares the tourists away.
If there was some some sort of presence there ,e.g a few waiting taxis , it would encourage more people to use that area in the evenings and open up the possibility of bars/restaurants opening there.
..

Good point - well made, Not just tourists though

I'd love to see more bars, restaurants and cafe's open down there. It should be the hub of night activity in Waterford.

Glasgow has a great system of licensing of bars in the west end. AFAIK theres 5 different permits which governs your opening times, whether or not you are allowed on street drinking, your opening hours, whether or not you have to have bouncers, music, age limits, drinks served etc etc. Also as far as I know, this licencing law doesnt extend past a couple of streets. And theres rarely an anti social element associated with it. I felt as safe as houses at all times there.

Thinking outside the box...

dayshah

blobbyblob wrote: »

Good point - well made, Not just tourists though

I'd love to see more bars, restaurants and cafe's open down there. It should be the hub of night activity in Waterford.

Glasgow has a great system of licensing of bars in the west end. AFAIK theres 5 different permits which governs your opening times, whether or not you are allowed on street drinking, your opening hours, whether or not you have to have bouncers, music, age limits, drinks served etc etc. Also as far as I know, this licencing law doesnt extend past a couple of streets. And theres rarely an anti social element associated with it. I felt as safe as houses at all times there.

Thinking outside the box...

I think the thing is to get the pub/restaurants open, and then the people will come. We already have the Gingerman and T&Hs in the vicinity, the there is the possibility of creating a bit of buzz. Also its a decent location for a pub. During the day get the shoppers for lunch and a club orange/coffee, and at night the drinkers.

jayboi

dayshah wrote: »

I think the thing is to get the pub/restaurants open, and then the people will come. We already have the Gingerman and T&Hs in the vicinity, the there is the possibility of creating a bit of buzz. Also its a decent location for a pub. During the day get the shoppers for lunch and a club orange/coffee, and at night the drinkers.

I dont know would there be demand for another pub in the area if there was im sure Egans or the City Arms would of stayed open.

Like i said in a previous thread why put that bloody kiosk in there when you can use any one of a number of buildings to put in a coffee shop its not like theres a lack of shop space but instead well try and fill any open space we have.

dayshah

jayboi wrote: »

I dont know would there be demand for another pub in the area if there was im sure Egans or the City Arms would of stayed open.

Like i said in a previous thread why put that bloody kiosk in there when you can use any one of a number of buildings to put in a coffee shop its not like theres a lack of shop space but instead well try and fill any open space we have.

I agree about the kiosk.

The problem with the City Arms is they bought Atmosphere Drainers from NASA to suck out any sense of atmosphere from the place. As for Egans, they had a bouncer who's job it was to turn away paying customers. They were probably offered a good price from Pennys.

I think now if someone wanted to open a pub there they could probably get a building for half the price of 3 years ago. So overheads would be a lot lower.

mike65

Free parking Monday to Thursday.

wmpdd3

Even just 9-1pm would make a difference, but still no use to a worker which they want to keep out of the free spaces.

That way if yo came along about 11am, you could put 1.90 in the machine and stay till 2pm.

These are the hours mu mum used to go into town, but now she never goes into town.

mike65

Hmm free for four days might be a bit much, but 10-2 would work for many. Spaces in the city centre should be for shoppers rather than workers, but it maybe possible to have certain areas designated for one and not the other.

ie Millers Marsh all day workers parking only. Jenkins Lane, parking for 2 hours max, free from 10-2.

viking2011

Parking and traffic are no longer a problem in our City, the parking spaces signs prove this. work is beginning soon on new traffic flows on the quays.
i was involved in a survey several months ago - there is 87 potential office spaces over shops on the main streets in Waterford. including side streets we could prob make it 150.
if we could get small businesses, dentists, doctors, etc back into the city - and lets say 100 offices with 2 staff in each. Thats 200 staff to have coffee, lunch, go for groceries, shopping at lunch time etc. Conservatively a spend of €200 per person per week, totaling €40,000 a week spend in the city.
Add to that People who come into those offices, who may have lunch, go shopping etc, may add another €20,000 to the city center economy.

Also - back in the day, a lot of us lived in the City Center, or close to it, now its all empty houses and apartments, thats why the city center is dying! after 6pm, theres no one to be seen!

So how do we reverse the trend we have created??

mike65

Parking space isn't as issue as people won't pay to use the spaces when they get parking free out of the town centre.

As for opening up vacant spaces above shops, that would only be attractive with low rents/rates, the Corpo are pushing the latter up and the former are not open to control as far as I know. Can't see the council being willing to subsidise rents even for start-ups.

dayshah

viking2011 wrote: »

if we could get small businesses, dentists, doctors, etc back into the city - and lets say 100 offices with 2 staff in each. Thats 200 staff to have coffee, lunch, go for groceries, shopping at lunch time etc. Conservatively a spend of €200 per person per week, totaling €40,000 a week spend in the city.
Add to that People who come into those offices, who may have lunch, go shopping etc, may add another €20,000 to the city center economy.

I think that's a good point. We make an issue of attracting shoppers from Kilkenny, which is all well and good. But our biggest market is Waterford itself with 50,000 people. If there are more jobs people will have more money to spend in pubs etc, and we can sustain more pubs. Also the licensing laws in general were favourable to a few super pubs rather than lots of smaller pubs (which I think ads more variety and character to a town).

There used to be a lot more businesses (financial firms I think) on O'Connell Street. Maybe the council could promote some business startup scheme for the city centre. If you rent your space above a shop as an office some sort of rate rebate.
Also suppose I wanted to set up a business that really I could locate anywhere (eg accountants, solicitors) that most of the work is done online. Could we attract people to open up in the city centre? I mean, people put a lot of thought into having an attractive place to live. How about an attractive place to work? Not just to attract customers (because they are all online in what I'm thinking of), but because you'd have nice places to go for lunch and so on. You could meet up with friends at lunchtime, instead of just being stuck with office colleagues all the time or eating sandwiches alone. If someone is establishing a micro-firm they'll prob spend as much time in their office as at home.

I'm thinking of doing some work as telework (due to recession). I don't have space in my home for an office. Would it be practical for me just to rent a floor above a shop to install an office, and maybe a waiting room? Hmm, I'm liking the idea of this. Cycle into work, and have power lunches in the Gingerman It could be a nice way to live.


Also if I go into the centre for an eye test or whatever I usually take a wander around, get some cakes from Greer's or something.