Gerry Adams, Leader of Opposition

imme

I don't see Gerry being Leader of The Opposition, for a couple of reasons:

-not clear if SF will be biggest party in opposition

-can't see Gerry being parliamentary leader of SF after the election, more likely to be Pearse Doherty

Will be strange to see Gerry in the Dail (assuming he's elected) alright. What kind of representative for the people of Louth would he make, or does he see himself as more of a leader of opinion. It will sure be different from what he imagined the Dail will be. But then again, I guess he'll make of it what he will.

Hannibal

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Jeez thats terrible I wonder did they take money and arms from the Libyan dictator Gadaffi too or was that just the IRA?

Well who's worse Gaddafi or the North Koreans and Soviet Union? or could we add the British, Americans, Israel etc who arent oppressive against their own but their foreign policy is a disgrace to the so called "free world". And I say foreign in regards to the British and Americans as what the Israeli's are doing is slaughtering Palestinians in their own country. Gaddafi helped out an army in need by supporting them, unlike the British and Americans who wouldve invaded and never left.

Hannibal

imme wrote: »

I don't see Gerry being Leader of The Opposition, for a couple of reasons:

-not clear if SF will be biggest party in opposition

-can't see Gerry being parliamentary leader of SF after the election, more likely to be Pearse Doherty

Will be strange to see Gerry in the Dail (assuming he's elected) alright. What kind of representative for the people of Louth would he make, or does he see himself as more of a leader of opinion. It will sure be different from what he imagined the Dail will be. But then again, I guess he'll make of it what he will.

Gerry will be the parliamentary leader of Sinn Fein in the Dail. He's the President of the party and will continue until either he decides not to be or else someone challenges him and the party vote.
I'd imagine he'd be a pretty good representative for Louth as SF are strong on the ground in Louth.

imme

Dotsey wrote: »

Gerry will be the parliamentary leader of Sinn Fein in the Dail. He's the President of the party and will continue until either he decides not to be or else someone challenges him and the party vote.
I'd imagine he'd be a pretty good representative for Louth as SF are strong on the ground in Louth.

does he have the appetite for it?

it'd be a full-on full-time role, I'd see Doherty more in line for the job, given O'Caoileain's low key and lacklustre job as leader.
Gerry stood back from politics in the NI Assembly and promoted Martin for DFM. I guess a job with Deputy didn't fit his own estimation of himself.

K-9

Dotsey wrote: »

They only decommissioned last year or the year before, how were Gilmore's campaigns funded? robberies and forged money were the OIRA specialty up until recent years. I'm just surprised he's never been pressed more about his activities under the stewerdship of Goulding and MacGiolla

Recent years? Are you saying Democratic Left and Labour had links to the OIRA?


Anyway, whataboutery is a poor form of defence for Gerry. Resorting to impugn and equivocate Gilmores's character isn't a great defence now.

Have you any type of evidence at all, Garda reports etc.?

Hannibal

K-9 wrote: »

Recent years? Are you saying Democratic Left and Labour had links to the OIRA?

Anyway, whataboutery is a poor form of defence for Gerry. Resorting to impugn and equivocate Gilmores's character isn't a great defence now.

Have you any type of evidence at all, Garda reports etc.?

How is it a poor form of defence? Gerry has been the victim of slander throughout this campaign by several media outlets that have produced not one shred of proof. The whole basis he was involved McConville's death came from an ex-IRA commander who didnt support the peace process or the direction SF was taking in regards to the peace process and policing boards so he made allegations only to be made public after his death which is very convenient considering he never has to answer to them. Yet people believe this man over an elected representive when it suits them.
Where did DL come from and where did their leaders end up? Gilmore has always dodged the question about the OIRA/Workers Party and he conveniently forgets the same of that party when he joined and has said some things in interviews which dont add up. If Adams is going to be constantly harassed by people asking the same two questions he has the right to ask why aren't other politicians being harassed in the same way. There's as much proof Adams was a member of the PIRA as there is for Gilmore been a member of the OIRA.

Hannibal

imme wrote: »

does he have the appetite for it?

it'd be a full-on full-time role, I'd see Doherty more in line for the job, given O'Caoileain's low key and lacklustre job as leader.
Gerry stood back from politics in the NI Assembly and promoted Martin for DFM. I guess a job with Deputy didn't fit his own estimation of himself.

I'd call O'Caolain anything but lacklustre. I don't think Gerry would be standing if he didnt have the appetite to be honest. Doherty does seem like the natural choice for leader and he has that air of authority and charisma when speaking that a lot of modern politicians seem to lack. Doherty is still a young man so all in good time but from what I've seen of him so far he does look to be one of the most impressive politicians in the country at the moment.
You look at the likes of Kenny, Cowen and Gilmore speaking and its so drab you could almost be at a funeral wake. Some of the best political speeches I've seen came from Fidel Castro, whether you support him or not you can't deny that his whole body language gave off an air of authority and leadership. Its a pity some politicians nowadays can be so underwhelming as its turns a lot of younger people off straight away and they associate politics with boredom

lugha

Dotsey wrote: »

Yet people believe this man over an elected representive when it suits them.

OT but it is most amusing that you imply that a public rep is inherently honest.:)

Dotsey wrote: »

There's as much proof Adams was a member of the PIRA as there is for Gilmore been a member of the OIRA.

And about as much again that J McConville was a tout. But republicans have no trouble accepting this "fact"

SafeSurfer

Dotsey wrote: »

You look at the likes of Kenny, Cowen and Gilmore speaking and its so drab you could almost be at a funeral wake. Some of the best political speeches I've seen came from Fidel Castro, whether you support him or not you can't deny that his whole body language gave off an air of authority and leadership.

In fairness if Kenny, Cowen, Gilmore et al had their military and secret police encouraging their audience they might look a little more interested too.

Did you know?
Castro holds the Guinness Book of Records title for the longest speech ever delivered at the United Nations: 4 hours and 29 minutes, on Sept. 29, 1960.

His longest speech on record in Cuba was 7 hours and 10 minutes in 1986 at the III Communist Party Congress in Havana.

Hannibal

lugha wrote: »

OT but it is most amusing that you imply that a public rep is inherently honest.:)
And about as much again that J McConville was a tout. But republicans have no trouble accepting this "fact"

I'm not implying public reps are honest, I'm implying that when it suits the media to peddle their stories they will use any source to back it up regardless of its credibility.
Well I dont know whether McConville was a "tout" is the simple answer, there's claims from both sides but no clear evidence either way so we will never know but can all agree it was a disgraceful killing. One of her sons was in prison at the time of her death on OIRA charges and later joined the INLA and has had subsequent charges for possession of drugs while another done something similar to an 80 year old man a few years ago breaking into his house and threatening him with a gun while claiming to be UDA members leading to the man having a heart attack. So whether she was a "tout" or not it probably led to a chain of events due to her children been orphaned that had a profound impact on the lives of others.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

In fairness if Kenny, Cowen, Gilmore et al had their military and secret police encouraging their audience they might look a little more interested too.

Did you know?
Castro holds the Guinness Book of Records title for the longest speech ever delivered at the United Nations: 4 hours and 29 minutes, on Sept. 29, 1960.

His longest speech on record in Cuba was 7 hours and 10 minutes in 1986 at the III Communist Party Congress in Havana.

I actually did know that about Castro. Its got nothing to do with the audience its more how he uses his words and makes certain points using eye contact rather than like say Lenihan I remember recently reading from a page. For me its shows a level of control and homework been done when the speaker can speak from memory rather looking down every 2 seconds for points to remember

K-9

Dotsey wrote: »

How is it a poor form of defence? Gerry has been the victim of slander throughout this campaign by several media outlets that have produced not one shred of proof. The whole basis he was involved McConville's death came from an ex-IRA commander who didnt support the peace process or the direction SF was taking in regards to the peace process and policing boards so he made allegations only to be made public after his death which is very convenient considering he never has to answer to them. Yet people believe this man over an elected representive when it suits them.
Where did DL come from and where did their leaders end up? Gilmore has always dodged the question about the OIRA/Workers Party and he conveniently forgets the same of that party when he joined and has said some things in interviews which dont add up. If Adams is going to be constantly harassed by people asking the same two questions he has the right to ask why aren't other politicians being harassed in the same way. There's as much proof Adams was a member of the PIRA as there is for Gilmore been a member of the OIRA.

So no reports then? I would have thought there must have been some smear campaign back then as you say yourself, they had suspicious backers! Plenty of it around all the political parties in the 80's.

I wasn't thinking of the McConville case, more intelligence reports about the Northern Bank robbery, slightly more solid evidence than rumour and speculation.

I find it strange why Republican would doubt the evidence of Brendan Hughes, the leader and main co-ordinator of the H Blocks:

An Phoblacht: Death of Brendan Hughes

Adams spoke at his funeral and was at his death bed, other Republicans spoke very highly of him. It's a shame that his name has to be sullied by Republicans in this way.

Adrian009

Dotsey wrote: »

Gilmore, DeRossa and Rabbitte were members of OSF/OIRA then name change OSF/OIRA/WP then name change WP then another name change DL then that group absorbed into Labour, a party which as you can see had various names all of which was under the Army Council of the Official IRA mainly with Cathal Goulding and Tomas MacGiolla as leaders and were funded by what can only be described as murky methods some of which involved leaders travelling to North Korea for money.
There's no more/less proof about Gilmore's activity than there is of Gerry Adams' just the establishment and gutter press wont run with certain stories about the Labour party. Joe Duffy and Pat Kenny might be easy to fool but the questions still remain.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/1018/1224281343708.html

Good. If you've got something on Gilmore, spit it out. Either he's fit for politics or he isn't. If not, we need to know.

I never claimed that Adams was a member of the IRA. Most people believe he was.

I'm hammering him for been a public mouthpeice for the organisation, never ceasing to defend and support them to this day, despite them commiting some of the sickest atrocities in modern times against fellow Irish people. How can he or any other member of Sinn Fein be considered fit to be Irish public representatives when they stand shoulder to shoulder with an illegal organisation that killed thousands of Irish people?

Hannibal

K-9 wrote: »

So no reports then? I would have thought there must have been some smear campaign back then as you say yourself, they had suspicious backers! Plenty of it around all the political parties in the 80's.

I wasn't thinking of the McConville case, more intelligence reports about the Northern Bank robbery, slightly more solid evidence than rumour and speculation.

I find it strange why Republican would doubt the evidence of Brendan Hughes, the leader and main co-ordinator of the H Blocks:

An Phoblacht: Death of Brendan Hughes

Adams spoke at his funeral and was at his death bed, other Republicans spoke very highly of him. It's a shame that his name has to be sullied by Republicans in this way.

Yeah I have loads of reports i'll pull them out of my ear for you perhaps. Listen some people cant cant see a priest sitting on a mountain of sugar and thats all I'm saying on it.
Intelligence reports? from Ahern and McDowell maybe.. no intelligence to be had in their reports or allegations. Maybe MI5 could enlighten you on who robbed the bank.. no police in sight on a busy Belfast street while this is going on? By the way no proof has ever been forthcoming about the northern bank and it remains an unsolved crime, they were only blamed for it.
And as stated in your An Phoblacht article, Adams said Hughes disagreed with the direction taken in recent years. Maybe he had his own agenda for making allegations who knows. I know a lot of people in SF and around the leadership and I personally believe that Adams wasnt a member of the IRA from conversations I've had but this is just my opinion. Some people cant fathom how a life long republican from West Belfast was never in the IRA but thats their opinion and maybe theyre not as informed as others. I think in years to come some people will analyse the years from 1969 to 1999 and the conflict and will realise how important Gerry Adams was in particular to getting republicans and by republicans I mean 90% of the movement some of whom were hardcore behind him at a negotiating table and to trust him and his judgement. Go back 20 years and compare Belfast and Derry in particular to now, its unbelievable what has been achieved and yet some people try to knock him and SF. They got a bunch of religious fanatics like the DUP into government with them, it would be nearly like the Americans governing Afghanistan with Al Qaeda as partners in 20 years like thats the scale we're on.
And there's other people some of which post on these threads that are so obsessed with hating SF that it consumes them and I believe certain journalists follow this train of thought and are also manipulted by their friends in Harcourt St to publish certain article.

Hannibal

Adrian009 wrote: »

Good. If you've got something on Gilmore, spit it out. Either he's fit for politics or he isn't. If not, we need to know.

I never claimed that Adams was a member of the IRA. Most people believe he was.

I'm hammering him for been a public mouthpeice for the organisation, never ceasing to defend and support them to this day, despite them commiting some of the sickest atrocities in modern times against fellow Irish people. How can he or any other member of Sinn Fein be considered fit to be Irish public representatives when they stand shoulder to shoulder with an illegal organisation that killed thousands of Irish people?

Gilmore is fit for politics if people vote him in.
The PIRA didnt kill "thousands" of Irish people. I believe the total is estimated at 1781 which was around 48% of the total number killed during the troubles. Of the 1781, 944 were British Security Forces, 35 loyalist paramilitaries and 80 republican paramilities which includes informers. The number of civilians is estimated at about 630.
I wonder how many the British killed in the previous 700 years of occupation.
And if like Adams you want to bring a whole movement to a lasting peace then you dont alienate the hardcore by condeming them. Look at where republicans were when the Troubles started and look where they are now, it deserves credit not criticism. Nobody couldve done more to put an end to it and get northern nationalists equality and an end to secterianism.

K-9

Dotsey wrote: »

Yeah I have loads of reports i'll pull them out of my ear for you perhaps. Listen some people cant cant see a priest sitting on a mountain of sugar and thats all I'm saying on it.
Intelligence reports? from Ahern and McDowell maybe.. no intelligence to be had in their reports or allegations. Maybe MI5 could enlighten you on who robbed the bank.. no police in sight on a busy Belfast street while this is going on? By the way no proof has ever been forthcoming about the northern bank and it remains an unsolved crime, they were only blamed for it.
And as stated in your An Phoblacht article, Adams said Hughes disagreed with the direction taken in recent years. Maybe he had his own agenda for making allegations who knows. I know a lot of people in SF and around the leadership and I personally believe that Adams wasnt a member of the IRA from conversations I've had but this is just my opinion. Some people cant fathom how a life long republican from West Belfast was never in the IRA but thats their opinion and maybe theyre not as informed as others. I think in years to come some people will analyse the years from 1969 to 1999 and the conflict and will realise how important Gerry Adams was in particular to getting republicans and by republicans I mean 90% of the movement some of whom were hardcore behind him at a negotiating table and to trust him and his judgement. Go back 20 years and compare Belfast and Derry in particular to now, its unbelievable what has been achieved and yet some people try to knock him and SF. They got a bunch of religious fanatics like the DUP into government with them, it would be nearly like the Americans governing Afghanistan with Al Qaeda as partners in 20 years like thats the scale we're on.
And there's other people some of which post on these threads that are so obsessed with hating SF that it consumes them and I believe certain journalists follow this train of thought and are also manipulted by their friends in Harcourt St to publish certain article.

Like the Rafa line!

My understanding was that he was a big mover in the IRA as far as the very first ceasefire, from my recollection of Tim Pat Coogan's book he was one of the negotiators, but it is a long time. There's just too many holes in the explanation that he wasn't in it.

I try and see things as balanced as possible, I would have been a Republican in my teenage years but have moved on since. People should give credit to Adams and there are fair comparisons to Gilmore in that regard, Gilmore also moved the Workers Party away from dodgy links and eventually moved on when they stuck to the past. There's a difference there, but some don't want to see it.

As for intelligence reports, they aren't always a conspiracy theory y'know! Sure the Guards had a few Republican sympathisers down through the years, maybe it from Hughes and his cohorts!

Adrian009

Dotsey wrote: »

Gilmore is fit for politics if people vote him in.
The PIRA didnt kill "thousands" of Irish people. I believe the total is estimated at 1781 which was around 48% of the total number killed during the troubles. Of the 1781, 944 were British Security Forces, 35 loyalist paramilitaries and 80 republican paramilities which includes informers. The number of civilians is estimated at about 630.
I wonder how many the British killed in the previous 700 years of occupation.
And if like Adams you want to bring a whole movement to a lasting peace then you dont alienate the hardcore by condeming them. Look at where republicans were when the Troubles started and look where they are now, it deserves credit not criticism. Nobody couldve done more to put an end to it and get northern nationalists equality and an end to secterianism.

So Gerry supported an organisation that murdered ONLY one thousand seven hundred and eighty one Irish people? Well sure that's all right then.

Successive Irish, British, European and American governments, as well as the instigator of the Belfast Agreement, John Hume, consistently denounced the IRA and its undemocratic actions. That never stopped them negociating with the IRA to bring its murder machine to a stop. And it was that form of engagement, not militant murders, that brought about the agreement that ended the Troubles, endorsed by over 75% of voters north and south.

Gerry Adams is standing as a Dail candidate for the Dail, the democraticly elected representative forum of the people of Ireland. Damm right I want to know why he should be elected when he spent over thirty years endorsing the murder of Irish people.

Seanchai

Adrian009 wrote: »

So Gerry supported an organisation that murdered ONLY one thousand seven hundred and eighty one Irish people? Well sure that's all right then.

Get over it. Even Paisley and Robinson could.

Adrian009 wrote: »

Gerry Adams is standing as a Dail candidate for the Dail, the democraticly elected representative forum of the people of Ireland. Damm right I want to know why he should be elected when he spent over thirty years endorsing the murder of Irish people.

Because most people on this island have moved on. It's called life, and bitterness makes it harder to live.

Adrian009

Seanchai wrote: »

Get over it. Even Paisley and Robinson could.

Paisley and Robinson are not Irish. They are not even Irish citizens.

Because most people on this island have moved on. It's called life, and bitterness makes it harder to live.

Thank you. I am glad to hear your opinion. Its measly dismissal of so much pain reminds me just what you and your party stand for.

Without justice people cannot move on. Why else do you think the survivors of the Bloody Sunday Massacre have spent decades seeking justice? As long as they live, and even after, those guilty of crimes against the people of Ireland must be sought and made pay. Even old-age Nazis have been tried and sentenced. There are many decades left before the last terrorist of the Troubles dies, time enough for justice to find them.

Hannibal

Adrian009 wrote: »

So Gerry supported an organisation that murdered ONLY one thousand seven hundred and eighty one Irish people? Well sure that's all right then.

Where did I say 1784 Irish people? just under 1000 of them were members of an oppressive occupying army and police force that used brutality over centuries against Irish people. I believe these people are what was called "legitimate targets". You clearly have a lack of understanding about the Troubles and the peace process with some of your comments.

Hannibal

Adrian009 wrote: »

Thank you. I am glad to hear your opinion. Its measly dismissal of so much pain reminds me just what you and your party stand for.

Without justice people cannot move on. Why else do you think the survivors of the Bloody Sunday Massacre have spent decades seeking justice? As long as they live, and even after, those guilty of crimes against the people of Ireland must be sought and made pay. Even old-age Nazis have been tried and sentenced. There are many decades left before the last terrorist of the Troubles dies, time enough for justice to find them.

So you wish to see Thatcher, her generals and police stand trial? Surely the British royal family as commanders in chief of the armed forces should also stand trial? The British forces had more in common with the Nazi's through their policies than republicans ever did!

Antrim_Man

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We heard it all before up North, yet SF seem to be handling day to day politics ok. SF may well be a very good foil to FG.

Congratulations, you have dismissed them out of hand like any good unionist.

Zubeneschamali

Dotsey wrote: »

The British forces had more in common with the Nazi's through their policies than republicans ever did!

Nice to see how SFs supporters have moved on from all the "Tiocfaidh Ár Lá 800 years of oppression give me spuds or give me death" stuff.

Hannibal

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Nice to see how SFs supporters have moved on from all the "Tiocfaidh Ár Lá 800 years of oppression give me spuds or give me death" stuff.

Read the whole lot instead of taking half sentences with your own spin and context on it.

Black Swan

REMINDER...
A few of the posts on this thread are getting a bit too personal. Please focus on the content of the posts, not each other. Thanks, Black Swan.

Adrian009

Dotsey wrote: »

Where did I say 1784 Irish people? just under 1000 of them were members of an oppressive occupying army and police force that used brutality over centuries against Irish people. I believe these people are what was called "legitimate targets". You clearly have a lack of understanding about the Troubles and the peace process with some of your comments.

So the IRA were only responsible for killing 781 (or 784?) Irish people?

Adrian009

Dotsey wrote: »

So you wish to see Thatcher, her generals and police stand trial? Surely the British royal family as commanders in chief of the armed forces should also stand trial? The British forces had more in common with the Nazi's through their policies than republicans ever did!

Anyone justifiably suspected of murder should stand trial, yes. What's so hard to understand about that? If members of the IRA can be brought to trial, then good.

My point was that Gerry Adams' membership of the IRA is irrelevant, because he has for the past forty years supported them and their actions. How can someone who supports the murder of Irish people be fit to represent Irish people in the Irish Dail? Answer me that.

Adrian009

Dotsey wrote: »

Where did I say 1784 Irish people? just under 1000 of them were members of an oppressive occupying army and police force that used brutality over centuries against Irish people. I believe these people are what was called "legitimate targets". You clearly have a lack of understanding about the Troubles and the peace process with some of your comments.

To respond to the substance of your post -

I got the figure 1781 (not 1784) from your previous post.

According to the Irish Information Partnership (see this link http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/deaths.htm), "One such report was published on 14 October 1985. The information showed that more than 50 per cent of the 2,400 dead had been killed by Republican paramilitaries. In addition the data also showed that over 25 per cent of those killed by Republicans were Catholic civilians."

Now how many other people were killed by the IRA by the time of their ceasefire in 2006 I'm not sure, but certainly in excess of 3,000 people were killed. That means that as many as 1,500 Irish people were killed by the IRA. And Gerry Adams fully supports the men and women who killed them. How then can his presence in the Dail benifit the Irish people?

Black Bloc

Maybe Libya is the best option for Adams and SF. Didn't his fan base have great respect for Gaddafi in the past?

Hannibal

Adrian009 wrote: »

To respond to the substance of your post -

I got the figure 1781 (not 1784) from your previous post.

According to the Irish Information Partnership (see this link http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/deaths.htm), "One such report was published on 14 October 1985. The information showed that more than 50 per cent of the 2,400 dead had been killed by Republican paramilitaries. In addition the data also showed that over 25 per cent of those killed by Republicans were Catholic civilians."

Now how many other people were killed by the IRA by the time of their ceasefire in 2006 I'm not sure, but certainly in excess of 3,000 people were killed. That means that as many as 1,500 Irish people were killed by the IRA. And Gerry Adams fully supports the men and women who killed them. How then can his presence in the Dail benifit the Irish people?

I've seen several different reports and all differ some by upto 100. But anyway its a lot to die just from civil unrest, and nationalists wanting the right to equality etc.. everything has its root cause. The IRA never went out and shot unarmed protestant civilians unlike some of the loyalist paramilitaries who did so to catholics.
Listen Adams was an integral part of a group that brought peace. To bring hardliners with you you cant criticise a movement or it fractures and you become irrelevent. The British fully support their armed forces and the atrocities theyve committed which are far worse than the IRA ever committed. If the people of Louth decide to elect him he has as much right as anybody else to sit in the Dail as he has a mandate by his constituents to do so.
And the IRA's ceasefire was in July 1997 not 2006, they decommissioned in 2006. You seem very sketchy about the ins and outs and ignore certain details, as I suggested to you before read your history and get upto date. You obviously have internet access so do some research or else go back to school.

Black Bloc wrote: »

Maybe Libya is the best option for Adams and SF. Didn't his fan base have great respect for Gaddafi in the past?

This is quote from Gerry today about the present situation in Libya. "Sinn Féin has no links with Col Gaddafi whatsoever and never had links with Libya. We support people throughout the world, their right to national self determination, democratic rights and we're against the type of action that's been taken in that country and Col Gaddafi should go"
So thats pretty clear.

[Jackass]

danbohan wrote: »

did we have a credible alternative policy from the opposition when fianna fail were giving the blanket bank guarantees that has bankrupted this country ?

Yes. And they were condecendingly called scaremongerers talking the economy down with their ill advised concerns and talked to like they hadn't an effing clue and Bertie had the arrogance and self assuredness that would have you believe Bill Gates was arguing with a four year old over how to operate windows 7...

I'd be amazed if Adams didn't top the poll. FF will confortably be leaders of the opposition though.

Ray Burkes Pension

FF will end up with around 10 seats more than SF.
Isnt this what this thread is about?

Hannibal

Ray Burkes Pension wrote: »

FF will end up with around 10 seats more than SF.
Isnt this what this thread is about?

Thas exactly what its about, but look up any thread on Sinn Fein and you will find the same people asking the same questions and spouting misinformation and then railroading every thread into the same direction, which is around in circles.

Adrian009

Dotsey wrote: »

I've seen several different reports and all differ some by upto 100. But anyway its a lot to die just from civil unrest, and nationalists wanting the right to equality etc.. everything has its root cause. The IRA never went out and shot unarmed protestant civilians unlike some of the loyalist paramilitaries who did so to catholics.
Listen Adams was an integral part of a group that brought peace. To bring hardliners with you you cant criticise a movement or it fractures and you become irrelevent. The British fully support their armed forces and the atrocities theyve committed which are far worse than the IRA ever committed. If the people of Louth decide to elect him he has as much right as anybody else to sit in the Dail as he has a mandate by his constituents to do so.
And the IRA's ceasefire was in July 1997 not 2006, they decommissioned in 2006. You seem very sketchy about the ins and outs and ignore certain details, as I suggested to you before read your history and get upto date. You obviously have internet access so do some research or else go back to school.


This is quote from Gerry today about the present situation in Libya. "Sinn Féin has no links with Col Gaddafi whatsoever and never had links with Libya. We support people throughout the world, their right to national self determination, democratic rights and we're against the type of action that's been taken in that country and Col Gaddafi should go"
So thats pretty clear.

"Deliberate killings of Protestant civilians - 130. 88 of these killings occurred during the three years 1974-1976. The IRA used a nom de guerre - Republican Action Force (RepAF) - to claim responsibility for some of these killings during this period. "

The IRA blew up quite a few Protestants in their time, too. Don't you remember Enniskillin, 1987, to name one example?

Not to mention half-a-dozen Gardai and an Irish soldier.

The CAIN project states that "the Provisional IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,824 people during the Troubles up to 2001. This figure represents 48.4 percent of the total fatalities in the conflict."

http://www.cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/book/index.html#append

In total, "Republican groups have been responsible for 2,059 of the [3,528] deaths".

And you expect me to vote for a party that supported those murders? Keep to your own side of the border, you're not wanted in Ireland.

Wolfe Tone

The mask has slipped Adrian, you came in here apparently with an open mind with regards voting for SF, appearances can be misleading.

Adrian009

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The mask has slipped Adrian, you came in here apparently with an open mind with regards voting for SF, appearances can be misleading.

Really? How so?

K-9

Dotsey wrote: »

Thas exactly what its about, but look up any thread on Sinn Fein and you will find the same people asking the same questions and spouting misinformation and then railroading every thread into the same direction, which is around in circles.

Indeed. It's the same faces arguing back and forth.

NI zero sum game politics never changes and encompasses all who come within it.

barrackali

Adrian009 wrote: »

"Deliberate killings of Protestant civilians - 130. 88 of these killings occurred during the three years 1974-1976. The IRA used a nom de guerre - Republican Action Force (RepAF) - to claim responsibility for some of these killings during this period. "

The IRA blew up quite a few Protestants in their time, too. Don't you remember Enniskillin, 1987, to name one example?

Not to mention half-a-dozen Gardai and an Irish soldier.

The CAIN project states that "the Provisional IRA was responsible for the deaths of 1,824 people during the Troubles up to 2001. This figure represents 48.4 percent of the total fatalities in the conflict."

http://www.cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/book/index.html#append

In total, "Republican groups have been responsible for 2,059 of the [3,528] deaths".

And you expect me to vote for a party that supported those murders? Keep to your own side of the border, you're not wanted in Ireland.

Sorry that remark just piss*d me off.....we all live in Ireland

Hannibal

barrackali wrote: »

Sorry that remark just piss*d me off.....we all live in Ireland

he says "keep to your own side of the border you're not wanted in Ireland". This state is only called the Republic of Ireland I dont think he realises what the island is called. If Sinn Fein are voted for then thats the democratic will of the people voting for them or any other party yet here we have Adrian who cant/wont accept the democratic will if it doesnt agree with him.
I hope if the British queen decides to visit he will show this same level of opposition to her aswell considering throughtout the Troubles she was commander in chief of the British armed forces who wreaked havoc but I somehow doubt he will because its all one way traffic with him.

Adrian009

barrackali wrote: »

Sorry that remark just piss*d me off.....we all live in Ireland

I'm sure it did and it was designed to provoke.

But not mindlessly so. I want to make people THINK. Difficult to achieve, but worthwhile.

Everytime I use the word 'Ireland' rather than '26 counties' and 'Northern Ireland' and/or 'UK' its to remind people that those are the countrys concerned. The island is NOT a united country, and has no prospect of becoming one anytime soon. Sinn Fein's attempt to portray otherwise only fractures the party's appeal, because the two are different political entities and it thus cannot create a coherent all-island policy.

I've made it very clear that I do not support Sinn Fein and why I cannot vote for them. I've also made clear that I nevertheless WANT them in the democratic process, and can envisige a time when I WOULD give them my number one one. Others have done so from their point of view too, and unless the party adresses these concerns it will never become a dominant party in Ireland's politics.

The events of the past few years have caused a sea-change in Irish politics, north and south. Surely Sinn Fein can at least consider making changes of its own, though short of breaking into SF Ireland and SF Northern Ireland or getting rid of the current leadership, I cannot see it occouring. But then again, why not?

Zubeneschamali

Dotsey wrote: »

This state is only called the Republic of Ireland

That's what the Brits call it, but that is not its name. From the Constitution:

Article 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

danbohan

barrackali wrote: »

Sorry that remark just piss*d me off.....we all live in Ireland

it tell us all we really need to know about the poster though , hello keith

Adrian009

QUOTE=Dotsey;70836265]he says "keep to your own side of the border you're not wanted in Ireland". This state is only called the Republic of Ireland I dont think he realises what the island is called. If Sinn Fein are voted for then thats the democratic will of the people voting for them or any other party yet here we have Adrian who cant/wont accept the democratic will if it doesnt agree with him.
I hope if the British queen decides to visit he will show this same level of opposition to her aswell considering throughtout the Troubles she was commander in chief of the British armed forces who wreaked havoc but I somehow doubt he will because its all one way traffic with him.[/QUOTE]

I'm not stopping people from voting Sinn Fein.

The offical name of this state is Ireland, or Eire. Pick one.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Decades of violence by the IRA and wordplay by Sinn Fein have not changed that.

Even after all the events of the past years, the best Sinn Fein seem able to obtain in 2011 is a few seats LESS than Fianna Fail, who are the most unpopular main party! Now, if that does not make the membership realise that a whole new approach

I know none of this will be enough to engage you. But at least its here to read for those within Sinn Fein who do. The party must change with the times, or else it will continue to stagnate and wither.

Adrian009

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed. It's the same faces arguing back and forth.

NI zero sum game politics never changes and encompasses all who come within it.

But at least its all here for the floating voter to read.

FUNKY LOVER

I'm not stopping people from voting Sinn Fein.

The offical name of this state is Ireland, or Eire. Pick one.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK. Decades of violence by the IRA and wordplay by Sinn Fein have not changed that.

Even after all the events of the past years, the best Sinn Fein seem able to obtain in 2011 is a few seats LESS than Fianna Fail, who are the most unpopular main party! Now, if that does not make the membership realise that a whole new approach

I know none of this will be enough to engage you. But at least its here to read for those within Sinn Fein who do. The party must change with the times, or else it will continue to stagnate and wither.[/QUOTE]

what the frik is wrong with some people

FUNKY LOVER

Adrian009 wrote: »

I'm sure it did and it was designed to provoke.

But not mindlessly so. I want to make people THINK. Difficult to achieve, but worthwhile.

Everytime I use the word 'Ireland' rather than '26 counties' and 'Northern Ireland' and/or 'UK' its to remind people that those are the countrys concerned. The island is NOT a united country, and has no prospect of becoming one anytime soon. Sinn Fein's attempt to portray otherwise only fractures the party's appeal, because the two are different political entities and it thus cannot create a coherent all-island policy.

I've made it very clear that I do not support Sinn Fein and why I cannot vote for them. I've also made clear that I nevertheless WANT them in the democratic process, and can envisige a time when I WOULD give them my number one one. Others have done so from their point of view too, and unless the party adresses these concerns it will never become a dominant party in Ireland's politics.

The events of the past few years have caused a sea-change in Irish politics, north and south. Surely Sinn Fein can at least consider making changes of its own, though short of breaking into SF Ireland and SF Northern Ireland or getting rid of the current leadership, I cannot see it occouring. But then again, why not?

i didnt realise the "UK" is a country:cool:

Zubeneschamali

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

i didnt realise the "UK" is a country:cool:

Would you prefer that we write "The United Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland" every time? Because that makes the point stronger.

Northern Ireland is in a different country. Gerry Adams is a foreign politician.

SafeSurfer

Dotsey wrote: »

The IRA never went out and shot unarmed protestant civilians unlike some of the loyalist paramilitaries who did so to catholics.
.

This is completely untrue.

According to Malcolm Sutton's "Index to Troubles related deaths" (Beyond the Pale, Belfast, 1994 -a reliable source of figures), the Provisional IRA has been responsible for the deaths of 1758 people in the period between January 1 1969 and December 31 1993. Of those, 345 (19.6% of total IRA killings)were uninvolved Protestant civilians (uninvolved meaning they were not active loyalists or working for the security forces etc.), a third (106 of them) killed in 1975-1976 alone. And among those 345 deaths, 133 were the result of deliberate sectarian killings. It also should be noted that 85 of these sectarian killings took place in the 1975-1976 period.

Antrim_Man

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Would you prefer that we write "The United Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland" every time? Because that makes the point stronger.

Northern Ireland is in a different country. Gerry Adams is a foreign politician.

Damn, I must be a foreigner as I was born in County Antrim. How the feck did I ever get my Irish passport

Wise up FFS :rolleyes:

K-9

SafeSurfer wrote: »

This is completely untrue.

According to Malcolm Sutton's "Index to Troubles related deaths" (Beyond the Pale, Belfast, 1994 -a reliable source of figures), the Provisional IRA has been responsible for the deaths of 1758 people in the period between January 1 1969 and December 31 1993. Of those, 345 (19.6% of total IRA killings)were uninvolved Protestant civilians (uninvolved meaning they were not active loyalists or working for the security forces etc.), a third (106 of them) killed in 1975-1976 alone. And among those 345 deaths, 133 were the result of deliberate sectarian killings. It also should be noted that 85 of these sectarian killings took place in the 1975-1976 period.

That seems a very high figure but yes, there was sectarian killings by the IRA. In fairness that was the nature of many UVF tit for tat killings and the IRA got embroiled in that.

Adrian009

Antrim_Man wrote: »

Damn, I must be a foreigner as I was born in County Antrim. How the feck did I ever get my Irish passport

Wise up FFS :rolleyes:

No one, I hope, is denying that you are Irish.

But County Antrim is in Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. Which is a different country from Ireland/Eire.

The point been made is that Adams's entire upbringing has been within the confines of the British political system. He is a newcomer to the purely Irish political area.