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    #32
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    meryem wrote: »
    To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist. Thereafter need to find some real psychic medium from the big mountain by going through natural qualities of a accurate psychic reader. I feel bad, for you could not find the perfect one who set all your doubts aside about the professionals until now to pay some money to or just some deserving respect.

    Anyway to make discussion shorter than longer here; for getting into the realm of this debate(whether paranormal world exist or not) the scientific community should try getting more deeper into unsolved paranormal mysteries with open and honest mind to except the outcomes.
    What utter nonsense. Things that exist dont' need you to believe in them. I don't have to believe in headache-imps for paracetemol to work, and I don't have to believe in tables because they are demonstratably real. Belief is for things that aren't real.

    Simlarly, if paranormal activity like ghosts or psychic abilities are real then belief isn't necessary because proof should be obtainable.


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    #33
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,192 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    meryem wrote: »
    To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist.

    Ridiculous!


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    #34
    meryem
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭meryem


    kylith wrote: »
    What utter nonsense. Things that exist dont' need you to believe in them. I don't have to believe in headache-imps for paracetemol to work, and I don't have to believe in tables because they are demonstratably real. Belief is for things that aren't real.

    Simlarly, if paranormal activity like ghosts or psychic abilities are real then belief isn't necessary because proof should be obtainable.

    Believing is not a primary requirement to test the existence of such things. It was just a suggestive in some cases(for these things are not that static neither easy to catch). But the thing is I guess we are arriving at conclusions without letting unsolved mysteries by science to be solved.
    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Ridiculous!
    There is nothing ridiculous over there. You need to answer unsolved mysteries by science first to say that.


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    #35
    jonbravo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    kylith wrote: »
    What utter nonsense. Things that exist dont' need you to believe in them. I don't have to believe in headache-imps for paracetemol to work, and I don't have to believe in tables because they are demonstratably real. Belief is for things that aren't real.

    Simlarly, if paranormal activity like ghosts or psychic abilities are real then belief isn't necessary because proof should be obtainable.
    SIMLARLY; if you have no belief in anything, what good is the proof to someone who can't believe!?

    Everything is obtainable.. its just a matter of when and how.. you have to have hope or why do it in the first place??


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    #36
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    meryem wrote: »
    To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist. Thereafter need to find some real psychic medium from the big mountain by going through natural qualities of a accurate psychic reader. I feel bad, for you could not find the perfect one who set all your doubts aside about the professionals until now to pay some money to or just some deserving respect.

    Anyway to make discussion shorter than longer here; for getting into the realm of this debate(whether paranormal world exist or not) the scientific community should try getting more deeper into unsolved paranormal mysteries with open and honest mind to except the outcomes.

    It's heartening that you are concerned with what the scientific community should be doing. I have a suggestion of my own, which is that, before the scientific community goes off to do as you suggest, the paranormal community puts up one member, perhaps even the real psychic medium from the big mountain which you mention, as the best example, in the estimation of the paranormal community, of someone who has psychic abilities. Then the scientific community can work with this person, and others from the psychic community, and run some agreed tests to test the peychic abilities, to see how accurate the best person is from the psychic community.

    Now, I'm not a betting man, but I would take a bet that the psychic community will find all sorts of reasons why this is not possible, why it wouldn't work and so on, as my bet is they don't actually want to put their claims to the test. What do you think, do you think they would agree to this?


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    #37
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    jonbravo wrote: »
    SIMLARLY; if you have no belief in anything, what good is the proof to someone who can't believe!?
    If you show me the proof I won't need to believe; I will know and I will understand. Belief is for things for which there is no proof.


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    #38
    meryem
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭meryem


    easychair wrote: »
    It's heartening that you are concerned with what the scientific community should be doing. I have a suggestion of my own, which is that, before the scientific community goes off to do as you suggest, the paranormal community puts up one member, perhaps even the real psychic medium from the big mountain which you mention, as the best example, in the estimation of the paranormal community, of someone who has psychic abilities. Then the scientific community can work with this person, and others from the psychic community, and run some agreed tests to test the psychic abilities, to see how accurate the best person is from the psychic community.
    I agree to do that we should have some test like that.
    Now, I'm not a betting man, but I would take a bet that the psychic community will find all sorts of reasons why this is not possible, why it wouldn't work and so on, as my bet is they don't actually want to put their claims to the test. What do you think, do you think they would agree to this?
    They should, otherwise simply accept their non existence...


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    #39
    Standman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    meryem wrote: »
    To meet the genuine ones first of all you need to have some belief that paranormal things do exist. Thereafter need to find some real psychic medium from the big mountain by going through natural qualities of a accurate psychic reader. I feel bad, for you could not find the perfect one who set all your doubts aside about the professionals until now to pay some money to or just some deserving respect.

    Anyway to make discussion shorter than longer here; for getting into the realm of this debate(whether paranormal world exist or not) the scientific community should try getting more deeper into unsolved paranormal mysteries with open and honest mind to except the outcomes.

    Could you give examples of which unsolved paranormal mysteries you would like the scientific communitry to delve more deeply into?


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    #40
    jonbravo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    kylith wrote: »
    If you show me the proof I won't need to believe; I will know and I will understand. Belief is for things for which there is no proof.
    Thats my point,..'you will need to believe someday that your views are wrong'.
    ok... lets say i've given you the proof that Mr yeti visits ireland,...what will you understand, what will you know!?
    What do you believe will happen in the world once the yeti turns out to be true!? with not involving the paranormal/skeptic digs the subject of yeti gets:D!


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    #41
    jonbravo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Standman wrote: »
    Could you give examples of which unsolved paranormal mysteries you would like the scientific communitry to delve more deeply into?
    how about re-think the lot!!.......or are they to far down there wormholes!?:D


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    #42
    meryem
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭meryem


    Like Where Is The Soul? or does it exist even or not. Hey BTW does anyone non believer here believe there is no soul as well and It's just our flawed thought like many others.


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    #43
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    meryem wrote: »
    Like Where Is The Soul? or does it exist even or not. Hey BTW does anyone non believer here believe there is no soul as well and It's just our flawed thought like many others.
    Yes


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    #44
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,192 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Dave! wrote: »
    Yes

    +1


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    #45
    meryem
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭meryem


    :)


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    #46
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    meryem wrote: »
    Like Where Is The Soul? or does it exist even or not. Hey BTW does anyone non believer here believe there is no soul as well and It's just our flawed thought like many others.
    Yes.
    jonbravo wrote: »
    Thats my point,..'you will need to believe someday that your views are wrong'.
    ok... lets say i've given you the proof that Mr yeti visits ireland,...what will you understand, what will you know!?
    What do you believe will happen in the world once the yeti turns out to be true!?
    Why do I need to believe that my views are wrong? When has anyone, ever, said "I think X, but I believe that I'm wrong" ?

    If you take me somewhere and show me a yeti I will know that yetis exist and I will understand that there is a large species of ape roaming Nepal, or wherever. I don't know what would happen if real live yetis were found, but I'd imagine it'd be along the lines of a lot of people saying "How about that, a newly discovered species of ape. Let's study it so we can learn more about it".
    with not involving the paranormal/skeptic digs the subject of yeti gets:D!
    I'm sorry, what? I really don't understand what your trying to say?


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    #47
    Standman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    meryem wrote: »
    Like Where Is The Soul? or does it exist even or not. Hey BTW does anyone non believer here believe there is no soul as well and It's just our flawed thought like many others.

    There's not much point in looking for something that there is no physical evidence for. Scienctific communities do not really get involved in the investigation of anything that some people wish existed, especially if there is no precedence for them in the any of the scientific fields of study. How are we supposed to locate a soul when its existence is merely presumed and has never been tested or proven?


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    #48
    jonbravo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    kylith wrote: »
    Yes.

    Why do I need to believe that my views are wrong? When has anyone, ever, said "I think X, but I believe that I'm wrong" ?

    If you take me somewhere and show me a yeti I will know that yetis exist and I will understand that there is a large species of ape roaming Nepal, or wherever. I don't know what would happen if real live yetis were found, but I'd imagine it'd be along the lines of a lot of people saying "How about that, a newly discovered species of ape. Let's study it so we can learn more about it".


    I'm sorry, what? I really don't understand what your trying to say?
    No one has ever said "i think x,but i believe y !? really....!!??

    When i take you somewhere and you see whatever it is, you will Know and Understand that there is another species of ape in the world before any type of study can be done!? Also you won't imagine anything,you'd had seen the proof yourself it was real... for you to imagine then your making things up in your head lad, you would believe in something to be true or false just like what happens in the ufo field with every clip on youtube...you'd get asked for the proof that you've seen, but who will believe you!??..proof that you can hold or not??.... nor would it be a newly discovered species..

    skeptics don't look for answers just ways to believe in something in my view.


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    #49
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    jonbravo wrote: »
    skeptics don't look for answers just ways to believe in something in my view.

    A credulous person will believe something without proper proof.

    A sceptic does not believe something without proper proof.

    A Cynic will not believe something even when shown proper proof.

    Which is the only intelligent position to take?


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    #50
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    easychair wrote: »
    A credulous person will believe something without proper proof.

    A sceptic does not believe something without proper proof.

    A Cynic will not believe something even when shown proper proof.

    I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

    Cynicism
    Cynicism is a distrust of other's apparent motives. It is a form of jaded negativity, and other times realistic criticism or skepticism.

    Cynicism has nothing to do with proofs, it's all about distrusting other people's motives, and expecting the worst in others so to speak.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(contemporary)


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    #51
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    pH wrote: »
    I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

    Cynicism
    Cynicism is a distrust of other's apparent motives. It is a form of jaded negativity, and other times realistic criticism or skepticism.

    Cynicism has nothing to do with proofs, it's all about distrusting other people's motives, and expecting the worst in others so to speak.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(contemporary)

    Well it has been used as easy described for example there are some self described cynics who dont believe in the giant squid despite its discovery.


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    #52
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well it has been used as easy described for example there are some self described cynics who dont believe in the giant squid despite its discovery.

    I'm also sure there are also some left-handed people who don't believe in the giant squid, however it would still be incorrect to use that information and concur:

    A left-handed person will not believe something even when shown proper proof.

    Cynicism is all about thinking the worst of people's motives and having a jaded view of your fellow man, and nothing to do with rejecting evidence out of hand.


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    #53
    jonbravo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    easychair wrote: »

    Which is the only intelligent position to take?
    i don't know!!
    why only one position..!?
    why take a position at all..!?

    can you explain your question please...with an example of what you mean!?
    thks.;)


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    #54
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    pH wrote: »
    I'm also sure there are also some left-handed people who don't believe in the giant squid, however it would still be incorrect to use that information and concur:

    A left-handed person will not believe something even when shown proper proof.

    Cynicism is all about thinking the worst of people's motives and having a jaded view of your fellow man, and nothing to do with rejecting evidence out of hand.

    I agree we both seem to share the definition of cynicisim but the nature of the english langauge is that words take on new meaning, this group believe this and describe themselves as such!


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    #55
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    jonbravo wrote: »
    No one has ever said "i think x,but i believe y !? really....!!??

    When i take you somewhere and you see whatever it is, you will Know and Understand that there is another species of ape in the world before any type of study can be done!? Also you won't imagine anything,you'd had seen the proof yourself it was real... for you to imagine then your making things up in your head lad, you would believe in something to be true or false just like what happens in the ufo field with every clip on youtube...you'd get asked for the proof that you've seen, but who will believe you!??..proof that you can hold or not??.... nor would it be a newly discovered species..


    Oh, are you hypothetically just showing me this yeti? I think that it would be my duty to inform the scientific community so that a proper study could be done. Until then I certainly wouldn't be running around saying that I'd found a yeti.
    skeptics don't look for answers just ways to believe in something in my view.
    What?


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    #56
    jonbravo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    kylith wrote: »
    Oh, are you hypothetically just showing me this yeti?
    No, im hypothetically giving you to yeti....i'd like to do my own study first.


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    #57
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    jonbravo wrote: »
    No, im hypothetically giving you to yeti....i'd like to do my own study first.
    So, it's hypothetically carnivorous then? I have to say that the fact you're, hypothetically, going to feed me to it is very worrying.


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    #58
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    pH wrote: »
    I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

    Cynicism
    Cynicism is a distrust of other's apparent motives. It is a form of jaded negativity, and other times realistic criticism or skepticism.

    Cynicism has nothing to do with proofs, it's all about distrusting other people's motives, and expecting the worst in others so to speak.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism_(contemporary)

    Thanks for correcting me! Are you a teacher? If you believe that a cynic is someone who will change his mind when shown proper proof, then I disagree.


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    #59
    easychair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    jonbravo wrote: »
    i don't know!!
    why only one position..!?
    why take a position at all..!?

    can you explain your question please...with an example of what you mean!?
    thks.;)

    Well, you are free to choose either being credulous, being sceptical, or being cynical. I can't decide for you, but for me the only intelligent position is to be sceptical, which is to say to only believe something when there is proper proof for it. But you'll have to decide for yourself.


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    #60
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,626 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    jonbravo wrote: »
    i don't know!!
    why only one position..!?
    why take a position at all..!?

    can you explain your question please...with an example of what you mean!?
    thks.;)
    I just saw a 50 foot purple-spotted elephant in Dublin city centre having a cup of tea with Xenu
    • Credulous person's response: "Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter"
    • Skeptical person's response: "Ok, let's go and have a look. Oh they're gone. And there's absolutely no evidence that they existed. Incidentally, I saw you buying a big bag of LSD earlier, and occasionally LSD has been known to cause hallucinations. Based on the available facts, I think that is probably the best explanation for what you saw"
    Oh, and since you think that calling something a theory is some sort of criticism, do you realise that the explanation for gravity is "only a theory"? That the explanation for planetary movement is "only a theory"? That the explanation for clouds is "only a theory"?

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    #61
    jonbravo
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    28064212 wrote: »
    Oh, and since you think that calling something a theory is some sort of criticism, do you realise that the explanation for gravity is "only a theory"? That the explanation for planetary movement is "only a theory"? That the explanation for clouds is "only a theory"?
    But you can't pull the BEST available theory for everything out of the bag and hit me in the face! Its not nice you know..
    Whats wrong with criticism!? when it affects the theory i believe in for example!?


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