vote for Fine Gael is a vote for stag hunting.

Dozen Wicked Words

Not voting FG, this part of their manifesto is one I don't agree with. Not the only reason, there are a few things I disagree with too.

It is a nice little bit of an electioneering bonus in their manifesto for those who choose to hunt, for as many people saying the economy is the be all and end all, FG still felt the need to include it in their manifesto.

liveline

dooferoaks wrote: »

Not voting FG, this part of their manifesto is one I don't agree with. Not the only reason, there are a few things I disagree with too.

It is a nice little bit of an electioneering bonus in their manifesto for those who choose to hunt, for as many people saying the economy is the be all and end all, FG still felt the need to include it in their manifesto.

I agree its alarming that FG decided to include it in their manifesto. Considering that opinion polls prior to the ban had showed a majority (marginally) in favour of the ban, and considering the fact that Dublin is the weakest link for FG, it means that either this was a very ill judged tactic by FG or its something they feel very strongly about. Like I said, before ultimately it will have little impact on them either way. But I don't understand why they decided to resurrect the debate.

johngalway

Tremelo wrote: »

You know perfectly well John that the authorities will only prosecute if they catch someone damaging a sett in the act. Reporting vandalism after the event is something I've often done, but to no avail whatsoever. I cannot say that they *all* do it, but given the attitude held by fox-hunters towards foxes, it's hardly a leap to hazard that *most* *probably* don't care much for badgers either. The hunts that gallop across the fields in my area always damage setts either by fully blocking all holes with earth (illegal) or by digging.

I do, but I prefer when accusations are made that facts are presented. It's too easy to tar people with a brush, that, along with other stuff, sticks. I believe it would be under an NPWS rangers remit to deal with that kind of thing.

Tremelo wrote: »

I fully realise that there are fanatics who would like to ban everything. I really think you are overestimating the danger they present to people who like to shoot and fish, but I appreciate the reasons for your concern.

I don't believe so. Look over at the UK, some or other "anti" group dug up someones dead grandmother. Over in Animal & Pet Issues there's a PETA related thread where one member believes it's sometimes right for certain groups to "take the law into their own hands" :eek:

Honey-ec wrote: »

Sometimes activists are justified in taking the law into their own hands

Tremelo wrote: »

So, straight question: hypothetically, would you be against a proposed ban on badger baiting and cock-fighting if these were still legal here? The rationale seems the same to me.

I'd be against both, I'll tell you why. Badger baiting and cock fighting are where animals are forced to fight one another. I don't see the other activities we're talking about as being similar. The thrill of the hunt is in the chase I'd imagine. Digging is a method of fox control. Foxes, and I can attest to this first hand, are a major threat to certain livestock such as lambs and fowl, and also game birds.

Tremelo wrote: »

Yes, these are the MAJOR issues to me. I also like FG's attitude to defence, foreign affairs, Irish, and several other things. There are a few things in the party's manifesto that don't appeal to me, but on the whole, it's the best on offer in my opinion.

I doubt there are any mainstream parties who's manifesto completely caters for any of their supporters

Violafy

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

Awwww. I'm sure the greens will form a strong and influential part of the next Dail. Just like FFs last coalition partner.

Come off that, any other party would have done the same if they'd been in the Greens' place! Anything for a bit of power. They all would have failed dramatically working alongside FF, and I suspect that FG will be no better if/when they win this election. They're nothing but the (slightly) lesser of two evils. :mad:

Violafy

Ghost Estate wrote: »

there are a lot of things out there more cruel than stag hunting. even if it was brought back we're still a bunch of bleeding hearts when it comes to animal welfare

want a slice of monkey brain or fried dog by any chance? plenty of that (and more) to be got in other countries that we dare not criticise because all our cheap electronic entertainment stuff comes from there so we can stay in our apartments isolated in comfort from the real world.

That's ridiculous. Obviously there are countless problems with animal welfare because most humans don't open their eyes enough to see it or even care. So you think the ones who do care should just give up and ignore it? Very defeatist. If we had this attitude to everything then we wouldn't be alive for much longer.
"There's no point in trying to save the deer because dogs are still being killed in China." :rolleyes:
The cruelty of staghunting is something that we can actually change, and therefore we should do all we can to change it. Then we can look at other issues. Ever heard of taking things one step at a time?

Oh, and I don't see how "fried dog" is any worse than fried chicken or bacon, both of which you probably eat regularly. Both are reared inhumanely in most cases, and just because dogs are cute, it doesn't make eating them more cruel than eating a cow or a pig. :mad:

Violafy

johngalway wrote: »

There are plenty more important FF/Green policies that need reversing, but it's satisfying to see one agitated for mostly by an uninformed urban minority interfering in a rural activity get the spotlight, and for a change start heading in the correct direction!

How exactly are we uninformed? Because we don't understand your rural tradition? :rolleyes: You kill innocent creatures for entertainment. I don't see how it's uninformed to see that as being disgusting.

johngalway

Violafy wrote: »

How exactly are we uninformed? Because we don't understand your rural tradition?

Yes actually.

Violafy wrote: »

You kill innocent creatures for entertainment.

Would you care to prove that, or do you prefer to just make the accusation without backing it up?

Violafy

johngalway wrote: »

Yes actually.



Would you care to prove that, or do you prefer to just make the accusation without backing it up?

Maybe you'd care to explain what there is to understand about it then, as I'd be quite interested to know.

Staghunting is a sport => it is classed as entertainment. From visiting the Hunting Association of Ireland website, it was quite clear to me that they class it as fun rather than a necessity to prevent overpopulation or something like that. Some people just seem to get a kick out of torturing animals who can't defend themselves. If some DO hunt to prevent overpopulation or damage to their farms etc then I still don't think it's acceptable way of doing because of the brutality involved.

johngalway

You said that I kill animals for entertainment. I asked you to back up that accusation, you still haven't?

Violafy

johngalway wrote: »

You said that I kill animals for entertainment. I asked you to back up that accusation, you still haven't?

I wasn't talking about *you* specifically; I meant anyone who partakes in staghunting. "You" plural. I backed up in my last post how it's obvious that the majority do it for entertainment.

johngalway

Violafy wrote: »

I wasn't talking about *you* specifically; I meant anyone who partakes in staghunting. "You" plural. I backed up in my last post how it's obvious that the majority do it for entertainment.

Glad to hear it as I don't participate myself. I will back up stag hunting for previously said reasons. They're the thin edge of the wedge, first stag hunting, then fox hunting etc.

As a shooter, I'm a long way up the thick edge of that wedge, but if left unchallenged it's just a matter of time before there ain't much thick left to that wedge.

Monty Burnz

I just have to say that Labour supporters are clearly getting pretty desperate, based on what I've been reading here recently. I think they are afraid that the unions won't be in a position to force most of the population to pay huge taxes to pay for zero pay cuts and zero job cuts for the public sector.

On the stag hunting thing, I've no opinion. I wouldn't shoot an animal myself, but I'm not so confident/arrogant in my beliefs that I would tell everyone else they can't do it either.

Violafy

johngalway wrote: »

Glad to hear it as I don't participate myself. I will back up stag hunting for previously said reasons. They're the thin edge of the wedge, first stag hunting, then fox hunting etc.

As a shooter, I'm a long way up the thick edge of that wedge, but if left unchallenged it's just a matter of time before there ain't much thick left to that wedge.

This may be me being ignorant, but I'm not sure what you mean by thick or thin ends of wedges. Anyway, would you please tell me how we urban people don't "understand" the tradition? I'm actually interested, as the only way I can currently see staghunting being justified is that it's a rural tradition. And we all know that traditions aren't always right.

Amtmann

I don't like the idea that this is an urban-rural thing. As I said above, I come from the countryside and my grandparents on both sides were farmers. Almost all my extended family also live in the countryside. I am against bloodsports and always have been. I understand them pretty well - they are hobbies and interests that a lot of people enjoy (frankly I don't know how), but I disagree that they are a "rural tradition that urban people don't understand". It's not as simple as that.

With regard to enjoyment, I've no doubt that farmers like John shoot foxes out of necessity to defend their livestock. Then you have this kind of thing, which I personally find sickening, but not 'cruel' because, presumably, there is no pursuit or savagery involved.

kemen

you obviously dont know a whole lot about countryside living or farming!! there is no possible way you could ban fox hunting. coming from a large sheep farm, without fox hunting we would lose a large amount of lambs which in turn would mean lose of earnings!! same goes for rearing game birds, invest money to increase the bird population only to have them eatin by foxes?? you must be mad.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Worztron wrote: »

Stag hunting should be completely banned. It is disgraceful.

The reality is deer eat grass which farmers use for cattle grazing, they allow hunters to shoot these deer.

Take away the hunters and you'll have farmers using far less humane methods than a bullet to take out the deer.

sensibleken

If they overturn it ill be training my dogs to hunt FG TDs...in fairness theres a good chance theyll escape

Nodin

kemen wrote: »

you obviously dont know a whole lot about countryside living or farming!! there is no possible way you could ban fox hunting. coming from a large sheep farm, without fox hunting we would lose a large amount of lambs which in turn would mean lose of earnings!! same goes for rearing game birds, invest money to increase the bird population only to have them eatin by foxes?? you must be mad.

Considering that the population of foxes has to be controlled, hunting them, particularily with rifle, is the most targeted, effective and humane way to do it. The alternative - poisons - has had well publicised effects on other wild life. A bit of joined up thinking on the "anti-"side would not go astray.

Nodin

sensibleken wrote: »

If they overturn it ill be training my dogs to hunt FG TDs...in fairness theres a good chance theyll escape

You go do that anyway. Few would blame ye by their first budget....

goz83

rccaulfield wrote: »

Stag hunting and the blaspheme law make this country look like a backward state of gombeens. Labour have done a u-turn and have promised to oppose the reinstatement of the stag hunt should they be in coalition so hopefully fg won't get in on their own. 2 sidenotes, a muslim colleage of mine stated his government holds Irelands blaspheme law up as an example when imposing the laws of the koran toward homosexuals being murdered etc. and on the stag hunting front-the stag doesn't know its for fun.

Genuinely sorry to hear about the reverse in the ban. It makes no sense to me at all. However, there are far more pressing issue to be dealt with. Another reason I won't vote Labour is because they have flip flopped on this issue as well as many others. I just can't stomach them anymore. The Joan Bruton interview on Vincent Browne show was a spectactular example of how annoying th party can be. Joan must have been hormonal that night?

Downlinz

goz83 wrote: »

However, there are far more pressing issue to be dealt with.

Really don't like this attitude at all, When it comes to death and the very basic ethical treatment and attitude it has to be the very foundation for any country. Saying something like this isn't pressing or significant is saying money is more important than what is right and just.

Which is fowl, shame on you.

reprazant

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The reality is deer eat grass which farmers use for cattle grazing, they allow hunters to shoot these deer.

Take away the hunters and you'll have farmers using far less humane methods than a bullet to take out the deer.

That's not stag hunting. That's shooting deer.

Stag hunting is releasing a stag and then chasing it on horseback with hounds.

A bit of a difference.

Bottle_of_Smoke

reprazant wrote: »

That's not stag hunting. That's shooting deer.

Stag hunting is releasing a stag and then chasing it on horseback with hounds.

A bit of a difference.

Ok well that is disgraceful and I'd be against that.

paul71

Stag hunting, legalisation of Canabis, Cruelty to animals, Single Sex Marriage, Abortion and the colour of Endas tie are not election issues IMO. They are things that I will express an opinion on to a candidate but I will not waste my vote on them.

goz83

Downlinz wrote: »

Really don't like this attitude at all, When it comes to death and the very basic ethical treatment and attitude it has to be the very foundation for any country. Saying something like this isn't pressing or significant is saying money is more important than what is right and just.

Which is fowl, shame on you.

Like it or not, it's a fact that there are far more pressing issues. Don't like it....do something about it. Ever set a mouse trap? A mouse might be smaller, but has just as much right to life if you want to go down that road. I wonder if you're a vegetarian

R P McMurphy

Can't say I have ever met anyone that even mentioned stag hunting before it was brought up to be banned. I know people who deer hunt but this is organised culling. I can only imagine that the stag hunt is limited to a small number of participants but they must be pretty influential.

reprazant

goz83 wrote: »

Like it or not, it's a fact that there are far more pressing issues. Don't like it....do something about it. Ever set a mouse trap? A mouse might be smaller, but has just as much right to life if you want to go down that road. I wonder if you're a vegetarian

There is a bit of a difference between killing vermin for necessity and killing for pleasure.

Killing a mouse, shooting a fox/deer is somewhat different to capturing an animal, releasing it and then chasing after it with hounds until you kill it.

I have no problem with killing pests or necessary culls. I do have a problem with the torturing of animals for fun. You do not need to be a vegetarian to think that.

kemen

what about the revenue it brings in?? keeps people in jobs?? all important things which need the ban lifted

Paparazzo

The reason I want the stag hunting ban reversed is because fishing is the next step for animal rights people.

Violafy wrote: »

I wasn't talking about *you* specifically; I meant anyone who partakes in staghunting. "You" plural. I backed up in my last post how it's obvious that the majority do it for entertainment.

The stags aren't killed either.

sensibleken

kemen wrote: »

what about the revenue it brings in?? keeps people in jobs?? all important things which need the ban lifted

Enlighten us? what are they.