vote green

telekon

johno2 wrote: »

Yeah, about 4.5c of that is carbon tax. So it's roughly a 3% tax. I spend about €30 a week on fuel so it's gonna cost me an extra €1. I'd prefer to buy 5 plastic bags for that €1 and then just throw them in a river. Bloody ridiculous. I have to work for an extra 5 minutes every week to offset some of the damage I do to the environment. I blame God for putting us in such an unfair universe. If this carries on I might have to car pool on long journeys. How crazy is that!

johno

Wow. Nice sarcasm. The wit is strong with you...

Some of us cannot choose where we work/live. I live near where my former job was but having lost that, have had to travel further afield. As you can imagine, living so far from work, the chances of finding someone to car pool with pretty much zero.

But you keep on entertaining the masses funny man. :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

vaalea wrote: »

I don't know why exactly the greens let the govt hang in there, diplomacy? but voters seemed unconcerned by the fact that their vote put the Fianna Fáil into govt in the first place.

Do you seriously believe the bit in bold? Because even if The Greens hadn't sold us out re NAMA & Anglo I would exclude them from my ballot paper based on the above alone.

johno2

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Do you seriously believe the bit in bold? Because even if The Greens hadn't sold us out re NAMA & Anglo I would exclude them from my ballot paper based on the above alone.

I believe he was referring to the voters own vote at the polls last time around, not the vote of the GP TDs.

johno

Liam Byrne

johno2 wrote: »

I believe he was referring to the voters own vote at the polls last time around, not the vote of the GP TDs.

johno

I know what he was referring to. What is your point?

johno2

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I know what he was referring to. What is your point?

Fair enough, I thought you had misunderstood the ownership of some pronouns in his post. It seems I had misunderstood your post instead.

johno

EDIT: And FWIW, I also believe that people who voted FF #1 in the last election are not holding themselves responsible for anything. It's easy to prove that too. They got about 40% of the vote yet it's almost impossible to find someone who will hold their hands up and admit to voting for them.

Liam Byrne

johno2 wrote: »

Fair enough, I thought you had misunderstood the ownership of some pronouns in his post. It seems I had misunderstood your post instead.

johno

He claimed that voters didn't object to them lying down with FF, and he's wrong.

They got a preference from me last time, but never again. I don't appreciate betrayal and collusion with corruption.

cnocbui

vaalea wrote: »

a vote for green IS a vote for...

Why do so many people overlook the greens?

Is a vote for stupid and thoughtless policies derived from misguided mystic/pseudo scientific beliefs that resemble religious doctrines. A vote for the Greens is a vote for pain with no gain.

I don't overlook them, I just make sure they are the last ones I number on my ballot paper.

Ghost Estate

johno2 wrote: »

The only thing I can think of that qualifies for that statement is rolling out your own attic insulation. If it's cheaper to do it yourself nobody wants to stop you. Do it yourself. I don't fancy having unqualified cowboys drilling holes in my walls or replacing my boiler though, so I have no problem with having a requirement for training/certification/insurance attached to that. It would be a complete joke if everyone could issue their own BER certs for their own houses.

Solar panels too I believe. The list is short because they give so little back in return for all their taxes.

The DIY route should be encouraged, anything where subsidies are given are tied up in a bureaucratic web of mandatory professional installation, certification, insurance and training.

If they could subsidise things like insulation and solar panels directly (you buy it, send your receipt and they give you some money back) it would be more worthwhile than a bunch of lads who done a FAS course and a safety cert selling you an overpriced 'package' rounded up to the nearest thousand.

The celtic tiger is not something i'm lonely after. Snobbery everywhere and everything overpriced, good riddance. Now prices are coming down the government unfortunately waste no time picking up the slack with increased taxes

johno2

I'll let vaalea get back to this and clarify what he meant by "their". There is a couple of different ways to parse that sentence. I honestly think you have it the wrong way around and you're arguing with an idea you constructed yourself.

johno

johno2

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Solar panels too I believe. The list is short because they give so little back in return for all their taxes.

The DIY route should be encouraged, anything where subsidies are given are tied up in a bureaucratic web of mandatory professional installation, certification, insurance and training.

Can take it you agree with me about pumped cavity insulation and boilers then?

There's 2 types of solar panels, thermal and PV.
The thermal ones require heavy modification of a central heating system and safety equipment for climbing around on roofs. The PV panels could possibly be fitted by an untrained person, but at some stage you're going to have to wire them into your mains electricity and replace your ESB meter. I'm quite handy when it comes to DIY stuff and I've spent part of my career installing antennas on chimneys and I'm not sure I'd tackle either of those jobs single handed.

johno

EDIT: And btw, the GP made the legislation that allows smart metering happen. Individuals had been lobbying for it for 10 years but the ESB didn't want the hassle of making it happen. So pre-2007 solar panels meant banks of car batteries and a separate 12V circuit in the house.

Liam Byrne

johno2 wrote: »

I'll let vaalea get back to this and clarify what he meant by "their". There is a couple of different ways to parse that sentence. I honestly think you have it the wrong way around and you're arguing with an idea you constructed yourself.

johno

OK - I can see your point now - I'd have taken "their" as being The Greens, since that's what the paragraph started with.

If it's your interpretation I've no reason to manufacture an argument since I didn't vote for FF - AT ALL : no preference, nothing, because I detest what they represent - and therefore there's no blame at my door re them getting votes; votes which wouldn't have been enough to get them back into Govt unless the Greens sold out.

Liam Byrne

cnocbui wrote: »

Is a vote for stupid and thoughtless policies derived from misguided mystic/pseudo scientific beliefs that resemble religious doctrines. A vote for the Greens is a vote for pain with no gain.

I don't overlook them, I just make sure they are the last ones I number on my ballot paper.

Why don't you just leave them blank? Why give them any number?

vaalea

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Do you seriously believe the bit in bold? Because even if The Greens hadn't sold us out re NAMA & Anglo I would exclude them from my ballot paper based on the above alone.

I mean that voters have themselves to blame that the FF had the power.. but it is so easy to blame GP which is an easy scapegoat... Voters had first responsibility... GP just delayed the right decision for whatever reason. If you want to be angry, don't take it out on the GP, have a word with the voters.

and it is "she".. thanks. :P

vaalea

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK - I can see your point now - I'd have taken "their" as being The Greens, since that's what the paragraph started with.

... but the sentance with "their" started with voters johno2 put it nicely..

flutered

the greens aided and abetted in the rape of my country, they introduced carbon taxes which has made ireland more expensive to live and work in, also it makes ireland more expensive to set up an idustary in, people in asia fart more carbon than ireland produces, the stag hunting fiasco cost jobs also income + tourists = more money in our broke economy, they allowed the imf entery to my country, they allowed themselves pay rises and pensions beyond the comprehension of the ordinary joe soap, they have done nothing to give any one hope, hopefull obliberation is their future

johno2

flutered wrote: »

the stag hunting fiasco cost jobs also income + tourists = more money in our broke economy,

All your other points have been argued in many forums before so I won't go into them again. This is a new one for me though. I've never been to a stag hunt. Would you be able to put some kind of realistic monetary value or number of jobs based on this tourism?

thanks,

johno

Liam Byrne

vaalea wrote: »

... but the sentance with "their" started with voters johno2 put it nicely..

Voters is then too broad a term because those of us who didn't vote FF.

I mean how am I to blame that FF got in?

And I'm not scapegoating anyone; I'll judge The Green decisions and I'll similarly judge FF decisions.

Ghost Estate

johno2 wrote: »

Can take it you agree with me about pumped cavity insulation and boilers then?

There's 2 types of solar panels, thermal and PV.
The thermal ones require heavy modification of a central heating system and safety equipment for climbing around on roofs. The PV panels could possibly be fitted by an untrained person, but at some stage you're going to have to wire them into your mains electricity and replace your ESB meter. I'm quite handy when it comes to DIY stuff and I've spent part of my career installing antennas on chimneys and I'm not sure I'd tackle either of those jobs single handed.

johno

EDIT: And btw, the GP made the legislation that allows smart metering happen. Individuals had been lobbying for it for 10 years but the ESB didn't want the hassle of making it happen. So pre-2007 solar panels meant banks of car batteries and a separate 12V circuit in the house.

No. When we got central heating the only thing we had done by an outsider was installing the boiler (had to be done by a registered plumber to get the warranty), and my god did he make a balls of it. He didn't even grasp the concept of water pressure increasing in a closed system when it heats up. A monkey would have done a better job.

Cavity insulation is a bit tricky but if you have all the stuff I don't see why someone couldnt do it themselves.

Don't even mention grid-tied photovoltaics; another 'jobs for the boys' scheme, realistically you'll still end up using car batteries unless you want to make a white elephant out of the project and put down several thousand for a 'specially for Ireland' grid tie inverter that conforms to a special standard that the ESB themselves can't stick to.

So your inverter sits there refusing to pump out any power to the grid because the quality of the power coming in is too bad. Even G/83 inverters are costly enough to extend your break even point so far into the future that you'd be thinking twice about ever going near the stuff.

johno2

Ghost Estate wrote: »

No. When we got central heating the only thing we had done by an outsider was installing the boiler (had to be done by a registered plumber to get the warranty), and my god did he make a balls of it. He didn't even grasp the concept of water pressure increasing in a closed system when it heats up. A monkey would have done a better job.

So you expect me to believe that anyone in the country could install a boiler better than the guy you got. Come on seriously? It's strikes me as odd that if you know so much about boilers you still managed to hire a muppet that made a balls of your installation.

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Cavity insulation is a bit tricky but if you have all the stuff I don't see why someone couldnt do it themselves.

And that will save you money right? A core drill bit for drilling the holes will set you back about 60-90 euros. Thats before you rent a sds-max drill for the day at another 20 euro. Of course if you have your own truck full of polystyrene beads lying around that won't cost you anything. To be honest with you I've looked into the possibility of going into that business myself and the competition is so fierce and the prices are so low that I'd never make a profit on it. You said something earlier about lads rounding up to the nearest thousand. If that's you're experience you couldn't have shopped around at all.

Ghost Estate wrote: »

Don't even mention grid-tied photovoltaics; another 'jobs for the boys' scheme, realistically you'll still end up using car batteries unless you want to make a white elephant out of the project and put down several thousand for a 'specially for Ireland' grid tie inverter that conforms to a special standard that the ESB themselves can't stick to.

You brought up the solar panels first, I just replied to you. The grid tie inverter are a requirement because the Eiregrid has to shut down parts of the grid from time to time. They can't do that if people are pumping electricity into it from random houses all over the place. The grid tie inverter detects if the mains is gone dead and it stops feeding power into it. This is so the lads climbing the pylons don't get killed.

Ghost Estate wrote: »

So your inverter sits there refusing to pump out any power to the grid because the quality of the power coming in is too bad. Even G/83 inverters are costly enough to extend your break even point so far into the future that you'd be thinking twice about ever going near the stuff.

You seem to have some experience with this stuff, and it all seems to have gone wrong for you. I've heard similar stories from other people. Those inverters have potentiometers on them that can be adjusted to allow some variation in the incoming voltage and frequency. Adjusting them helps to fix the problem. BTW I know the break-even point on PV is very bad in this country. I advise people on what to buy and I've never advised anyone to get PV. If you sunk a load of money into a PV system you should have got some advice or done some spreadsheets first. Sorry about that, genuinely.

johno

flutered

johno2 wrote: »

All your other points have been argued in many forums before so I won't go into them again. This is a new one for me though. I've never been to a stag hunt. Would you be able to put some kind of realistic monetary value or number of jobs based on this tourism?

thanks,

johno

most hunts have mostly people from outside ireland hunting with them, so
hotel and b&b nights
dining out
after the hunt is over they usuall ajourn to a local ale house for a time
the hounds require care =employment, food, vet et al.
they need hire a horse
the horse needs to be fed, nuts halage and hay
insured
the blacksmith is required
as is the vet
one or two stable lads
the flight in and out of ireland
hire of a car
there are probably more, the above applys to a foxhunt near me, i hope this will suffice.

vaalea

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Voters is then too broad a term because those of us who didn't vote FF.

I mean how am I to blame that FF got in?

And I'm not scapegoating anyone; I'll judge The Green decisions and I'll similarly judge FF decisions.

the greens certainly are not to blame for FF votes... that's all I'm saying.. there is plenty of blame to go around.. just take a step back and look at the bigger picture and history rather than say the greens let everyone down blah blah

Liam Byrne

vaalea wrote: »

the greens certainly are not to blame for FF votes... that's all I'm saying.. there is plenty of blame to go around.. just take a step back and look at the bigger picture and history rather than say the greens let everyone down blah blah

It's pretty condescending of you to suggest that I need to "take a step back and look at the bigger picture".

That's precisely what I am doing.

If the result isn't to The Green's liking, then maybe they should have chosen and acted more carefully.

flutered

johno2 wrote: »

You're right about that, so obviously you have a good grasp of numbers. Why don't you do the math on taking the carbon tax applied to heating oil or gas (~4%) which gets allocated into grants for more efficient boilers. Upgrading a 10 year old boiler (65% efficient at best) and see how long it takes to amortise that against the grants they provided for new boilers (>90% efficient). I've already done it, and it varies slightly depending on usage and insulation levels, but for most houses it's somewhere in the ballpark of 4-5 years.

in the present financial climate how many of us can afford this, only the top elcons, all of the lower forms in the food chain can barley manage never mind a new car a new boiler or insulation, i have often wondered what form of relaxation technique do they use. i am in recipt of 193 euro per week pension, please explain how i can manage any of the above, if i could i should be the next minister for finance regardless of who is in power

Ghost Estate

johno2 wrote: »

So you expect me to believe that anyone in the country could install a boiler better than the guy you got. Come on seriously? It's strikes me as odd that if you know so much about boilers you still managed to hire a muppet that made a balls of your installation.

This was in the good old days. Didn't know much about it back then and this guy was supposed to have a good reputation

And that will save you money right? A core drill bit for drilling the holes will set you back about 60-90 euros. Thats before you rent a sds-max drill for the day at another 20 euro. Of course if you have your own truck full of polystyrene beads lying around that won't cost you anything. To be honest with you I've looked into the possibility of going into that business myself and the competition is so fierce and the prices are so low that I'd never make a profit on it. You said something earlier about lads rounding up to the nearest thousand. If that's you're experience you couldn't have shopped around at all.

If you're renting something as basic as a drill then you don't have much of a chance. Rounding up to the nearest thousand would be for solar water heating. They see the grant and say 'we`ll take that!'

The competition you're facing is likely from lads who were given the signal by their local TD to get their foot in the door before the barriers to entry in the form of regulation went up.

You brought up the solar panels first, I just replied to you. The grid tie inverter are a requirement because the Eiregrid has to shut down parts of the grid from time to time. They can't do that if people are pumping electricity into it from random houses all over the place. The grid tie inverter detects if the mains is gone dead and it stops feeding power into it. This is so the lads climbing the pylons don't get killed.


You seem to have some experience with this stuff, and it all seems to have gone wrong for you. I've heard similar stories from other people. Those inverters have potentiometers on them that can be adjusted to allow some variation in the incoming voltage and frequency. Adjusting them helps to fix the problem. BTW I know the break-even point on PV is very bad in this country. I advise people on what to buy and I've never advised anyone to get PV. If you sunk a load of money into a PV system you should have got some advice or done some spreadsheets first. Sorry about that, genuinely.

johno

I have never bought into this myself but anti-islanding protection is standard for all grid tie inverters. If you start messing with pots then your inverters don't comply to the standard anymore because as far as i know (tis been a while since I read them) the standard document specify a minimum and maximum cut-in voltage and its well above the 190 or so volts the mains goes down to over here quite regularly. by that logic I might as well get one from abroad, change settings and spew as much power into the grid as i can with it.

the ESB probably wouldn't like that idea so much or else they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of writing their own standards. and as soon as the standard is written , like happens all too often over here a lad springs up with his own company selling these at a fiercly uncompetitive price.

even though I could get a cheap PowerJack(tm) grid-tie from the backarse of Guangdong and get away with using it thats not what bothers me. its the mentality of "we`ll make life awkward for people through legislation and they can pay one of our boys to make it less awkward".

Ghost Estate

flutered wrote: »

johno2 wrote: »

Upgrading a 10 year old boiler (65% efficient at best) and see how long it takes to amortise that against the grants they provided for new boilers (>90% efficient). I've already done it, and it varies slightly depending on usage and insulation levels, but for most houses it's somewhere in the ballpark of 4-5 years.

boilers 10 years ago aren't as bad as they'd like to let on. there have been improvements in the efficiency of a lot of things but more often than not you're better off running an old boiler or fridge (if the gasket seals good!) or anything into the ground before you invest in something new. another 'green' scam to make you part with your money rather than save it. 20 and 30 year old goods and stuff that hasn't been serviced will be less efficient but most likely still not inefficient enough to throw out one that's still working

newtadis

il vote for the greens if they legalize green

Ghost Estate

newtadis wrote: »

il vote for the greens if they legalize green

If they ever do, they'll do it after doubling the tax on it.

cnocbui

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why don't you just leave them blank? Why give them any number?

Must be OCD.

Cork24

YEA I VOTE for the GREENS if i want my Car TAX House Carbon TAX going though the Roof,

your Green Party.. Jump Ship when the Ship was going down Remember you were in Power when this Crap hit.. Remember how Ireland was in an all time low and all you Green Dupes wanted was a ban on Hunting ? you saw a ban on Hunting more of a need for the public eye then what the banks were doing? Carbon Global Warming Crap is us were the problem, running our cars.. when your TD cycled to work on the First day then after all getting drivers to get you to work. I think Flights around the Country and to other Countries take up more of this Carbon...


& if your SO SO SO GREEN WHY THE F***K are people who are looking to build WIND POWER more then 18 months to get a letter saying NO>> when in America just takes 2 weeks not evening..

70's germany had their Autobahnen, only 2 months Ago we Finally got a CORK TO DUBLIN MAIN ROAD...

AS one old SAYING.... FOOL ME ONCE SHAME ON YOU FOOL ME TWICE SHAME ON ME>>> I'M NO FOOL>>>>& NO VOTE FOR GREENS>>>

erictheviking1

vaalea wrote: »

vote green. people love to vote for the same old parties thinking they are going to get a CHANGE?! A real message to politicians is kicking old parties to the curb and seeing if a different party can breathe some fresh air into politics.

a vote for green IS a vote for the economy if any of you have been reading up on the economics of climate change and green collar jobs. Green Party is not just about environment, it is about sustainability in all areas, and that means long term employment prospects, not short sighted quick fixes.. and it means working for priceless equality and quality of life rather than quick big $$.

Why do so many people overlook the greens?

Vote Green? My Arse! They are a shower of out of touch nimby hippies who have made the average families life in this country so much harder.
It now costs me more to get to work to earn enough money to pay even more taxes. The Greens underestimate how much the average working man now despises them.