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Would you actually prefer if the Irish language didnt exist?
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You claimed: I questioned your source and accused you of scaremongering and your response is to avoid this and talk about "different priorities" and my allegedly being incapable of "grasping" your unilateral meandering off into your "different priorities". So, come back to us, focus and explain how all primary schools being gaelscoileanna would "jeopardise" the Irish economy (especially given that all this English speaking has been an enormous economic success). I expect to see scientific reports showing the iniquitous and pernicious economic consequences of bilingualism, and no less.
At 3.30am?? Are you mad?! Sorry, but you'll have to settle for several years living on the continent in three different countries.
English is the most widely spoken business language in the Western World. Just google TEFL courses and you'll see. In a lot of countries, there is a lot of effort made be parents to start teaching children at a young age. In Germany, parents actively seek out native English speakers as babysitters and nannies in order to get there kids learnign the language quickly. Not speaking English is seen as major disadvantage; while good English is an advantage.
Now I know, you did not suggest turn away from English altogeter. But with the rest of world trying to learn and improve their English as much a possible for mainly professional reasons; a nation - any nation - that trys to turn away from this trend runs the risk of not marketing itself to its full potential and losing out on investment.
I accept that making every school a Gaelscoil would not diminish the number of English speakers, but it may well diminsh the level of English amongst students and thus damage future prospects.
Trust me, if you think being a native English speaking country is not an asset, you misunderstand the situation.
Another fact (unrelated) is that if a child has been raised to the age of four or five speaking English, going to school in a compeltely different language will immediately set them back unnesecarily.RepublicanEagle wrote: »Those of you who are Irish and hate our language and think it is useless and say it is dying go fcuk yourselves, you all have no concept or appreciation of your own ancient heritage,culture and language......hope the lot of you all fcuking emmigrate and leave this country to the people who truly appreciate their country and who also want to protect and strengthen our heritage,culture and language.
Or kill yourselves, this website has a large percentage of nauseating,self loathing,begrudging and moronic users.
You've just been reading the "why do the Irish always run away" thread, haven't you?
There are some aspects of Irish culture I appreciate, some do nothing for me. I take each one on it's one merit. I don't just automatically like something BECAUSE it's Irish. That's sheep mentality.RepublicanEagle wrote: »It is laughable that you attempted to disguise your hatred and ignorance of your own culture and language behind your "intellectual" drivel.
Ah, "intellectual" in inverted commas. Next stop, "liberal" in inverted commas. Normally, being intelligent would be considered a positive trait, but you portray it is a handicap and ridiculed someone for it.sandmanporto wrote: »If you don't want to be Irish, become another citizen of another nation such as Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand or any other former colony! See how you fit in then! Let us know how you get on!
Pretty sure they'd tell me to sod off, seeing as I wasn't born in any of thos e countries. New Zealand might be interesting though.Good point, however one major flaw I see - Germany, Holland, France, Spain - virtually every other country in Europe in fact - has a native mother tongue for virtually every citizen. They manage to attract inward investment just fine. Teaching kids their native language has no detremental effect and in fact they manage to make a bloody good job of eaching them all english too. I'd hazard a guess in fact that Mary Hanafin's brain would very probably implode if she tried to read the German TEFL curriculum.
Mary Hanafin's brain implodes when she reads the Beano.
In other countries, fluency is the goal, not just being able to speak it. As mentioned before, written English is usually the key difference between native and non native English.
I assume the bit about teaching kids their native langauage having no detremental effect was aimed at someone else because I never claimed this.Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Oh God. For the last time and maybe I should spell this out phonetically for the hard of thinking out there. I don't hate the Irish language or culture and I can pretty much guarantee I know more about the latter than you RepublicanEagle. I'd not be shocked to discover you can't string a fluent sentence in Irish yourself.RepublicanEagle wrote: »It is laughable that you attempted to disguise your hatred and ignorance of your own culture and language behind your "intellectual" drivel.
IMHO the Irish self hatred and lack of confidence is just as much found in the OTT "Irish" as it is in the "I sound like a character from the Hills" Eejits. They're so twitchy that even the slightest hint of a question about their narrow view of heritage garners at best incredulity, at worst aggression. Hell I saw a guy get rounded on for claiming in another thread that the Irish weren't in fact Celts.
In the case of this thread, this goes triple for the ones who can't actually speak Irish yet will tear at their patriotic breasts to defend it. They're caught between their own (invented)shame and hypocrisy and blame the education system, the Brits or anyone else that hoves into view for this lack in themselves.
No it's not. It really isn't. Yea nice emotive image, but meh. Plus in AH? Slagging off "your ma"?It's the linguistic equivalent of slagging off your mother or grandmother
In any event this illustrates my point. It might be your mother or your grandmother, stop presuming she's mine or anyone elses. LinguisticallyI'd have to be slagging off my great great great great great grandmother at least. I wouldn't be alone in this either.
Usual ballsology around this. I've seen this reported of religious schools and other minority schools and the reasons are similar. Gaeilscoil's have smaller classes and more parental involvement, that's the major difference, not the language(though it of course has a part). Compare private schools with public. You'll see the former getting higher results as a general thing too.Gaeilscoileanna doesn't seem to hamper these kid's share of EnglishRejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
And as I've pointed out to the point of near fcuking exhaustionInsect Overlord wrote: »You know what? I actually love these threads. I love the fact that I can study Irish, speak it with my friends, listen to some beautiful songs, read some amazing poetry, learn some fascinating social and economic history and broaden my perspective on the world as a whole I say fair enough IO. I don't want the language to die(not gonna happen anyway). I don't think it's a dead language, but I do think it's a minority language of this nation and it's elevated status is more about some notion of Irishness than actual Irishness.
The problem is IO this has been my experience and a fair number out there would back this up. "narrow minded eejits" check out on this thread alone the "go live in england" type rants. Often from people who can't even speak the language.I actually laugh when Wibbs posts his ridiculous caricatured outline of what it means to love an Ghaeilge. It's almost satire in its hyperbole.
"boggers who have the chip on their shoulder"? Actually I should have explained that more. For me "bogger" is a state of mind, not a geographical location. IE Bertie Aherne a "Dub", is a bogger to my mind. I do stand behind the notion that Irish contracted to a largely under or uneducated rural folk language and that has affected it. It's better than 100 years ago, but that diddlee eye folksie element still needs reducing IMHO. I'd call it the "Peig effect". TG4 et al have made a big diff on this score.
"schizoid"? I'm on the firmest ground of all on that point. Indeed how could yourself or anyone deny it? point 1, a majority apparently support it, yet 1 in 50 speak it outside education on a daily basis. Does not compute. Point 2, quite often the loudest voices calling on the sons and daughters of Eireann to rise up in defence of "their" language can't speak a word of it. That's pretty damned schizoid IO, never mind ironic and mostly a bit daft. And that's before we go next nor near the 90 years of government support. You really couldnt make it up if you tried. I can't think of a single nation on earth that has spent that much money, resources and time on the revival of a language yet here we are having this convo. It's pretty fcuking sad reflection on us as a nation tbh. Pissup in a brewery time. IMHO worse than if we'd spent feck all and it was just spoken in small patches in Donegal.
Plus one. The problem for too long IMHO is that it has been militarised, republicanised and indeed culturalised (:s:D) while taking the rest of the non speaking country with it.Now, I have to admit the trolling is coming from both sides. All this "tír gan teanga tír gan anam" stuff is just as risible as the "Irish is a DEAD language :mad: " ráiméis. Culture and heritage are things that should be enjoyed, not militarised.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Yep there are a lot, sadly many dying out. "I'm after breaking the dish". The "I'm after" bit is from Irish. Actually it may even predate it. Irish like Latin doesn't have as clear a yes or no, so In hiberno english you'll hear the verb repeated more than in British English. So "Are you off for a pint later?" "I am". Even how we describe the linguistic ability of another or ourselves IE "Wibbs has no Greek" "I have little Irish". The verb "to have" is missing in Irish, possession in prepositionally based. There are a load of other influences on Hiberno english and it is(or was) quite distinctive as a dialect, but there's a goodly lump of Irish in it. I wonder could you argue that the Irish word "sea" is in response to a need for a definitive "yes" and that's some influence going the other way?Not saying there's no Gaelic elememtns in English, I have no idea, so I take your word for it.
A funny one is Gluastain(spelling?) for car. "Fast thing" IIRC. Growing up the word seemed to be Carr. But maybe that was seen as too anglo? Joke is "car" is most likely a Celtic language word.
Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Yeah, more on it anseo.Yep there are a lot, sadly many dying out. "I'm after breaking the dish". The "I'm after" bit is from Irish. Actually it may even predate it. Irish like Latin doesn't have as clear a yes or no, so In hiberno english you'll hear the verb repeated more than in British English. So "Are you off for a pint later?" "I am". Even how we describe the linguistic ability of another or ourselves IE "Wibbs has no Greek" "I have little Irish". The verb "to have" is missing in Irish, possession in prepositionally based. There are a load of other influences on Hiberno english and it is(or was) quite distinctive as a dialect, but there's a goodly lump of Irish in it. I wonder could you argue that the Irish word "sea" is in response to a need for a definitive "yes" and that's some influence going the other way?
A funny one is Gluastain(spelling?) for car. "Fast thing" IIRC. Growing up the word seemed to be Carr. But maybe that was seen as too anglo? Joke is "car" is most likely a Celtic language word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiberno-English0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Didn't trust me eh?Just checked that and sure enough it's true. Very interesting.
:D Funny I have noted that quite a few commentators try to play down the Irish link. Kinda the way the British often claim things like the Lindisfarne gospels and the like as "english" and "saxon". Or that it was Augustine who brought them christianity. Yea right lads. Well he brought some to the soft southern shandy drinkers but even there he was about 300 years too late. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Algebra for Engineering!? All of the Engineers just snorted onto their screen, wondering why they had to do Differential Calculus for several years....
Not wanting to get off the Irish topic, maths is an 'international' language, and I think that if more people understood the use of algebra, they might be better able to handle money and logic, two skills sadly lacking in this country.
Sorry if that's wrong, I just plucked any random maths-y job out of the air tbh! :rolleyes:É seo. *
Are you for real? He might end up with better Irish, but definitely not with the same knowledge in other subjects - especially going forward - either to third level or into the workplace. I know, I was that student.
* This.
Bit of a generalisation don't you think? I've a good few friends who went through a Gaelscoil and a Gaelcoláiste, and who did the some of the same subjects as I'm doing for my leaving cert, and came out with top grades in them. I can only hope to do as well and I'm doing mine through English. None of them have had any problems with third level so far.
* Maith-thúDuckworth_Luas wrote: »Or have a basic education!
In fairness, most people aren't going to use the factor thereom or whatever in their daily lives once they're finished school. I certainly won't.0 -
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