Nissan Leaf all electric car

carchaeologist

This weekend is the 'Grand unveiling' of this all electric car, supposedly this one pictured here in Randles Nissan in Tralee is the first one sold in Europe, i wonder is the expensive (1000eu) registration plate actually for the car.




Under the bonnet oddly looks similar enough to an ordinary engine, its pretty normal looking in there apart from a little more wiring. Theres even an ordinary battery in the normal place on the inner wing!:D
140Km/hr top speed.
Batterys are under the floor, so the boot is quite large and deep.
8 Hours charge time, with 25 min quick charge.
Average range on a full charge 175Km, with an estimated annual charging cost of 232eu a year(on low rate nighttime electricity)

The interior seems pretty well put togther, very solid and with good materials, theres a sort of dial on the centre console like a BMW iDrive as a gear shifter, but it seems to be just a Forward/Neutral/Reverse shifter, i wasnt quite sure.
The price is a shade less than 30K with government incentives, AFAIK road tax is free.

Seems to be the sort of vehicle that would be ideal as a second car, or perhaps for an elderly person/couple where no great distances would be covered every day.
All in its not a bad looking car, it doesnt look unconventional, which i guess will help sales.

Has anyone driven one of these?

Is this the beginning of the end for the petrol/diesel vehicle?!

paddy1976

Yep, I've driven it a few times

Paddy

carchaeologist

paddy1976 wrote: »

Yep, I've driven it a few times

Paddy

How does it drive?

paddy1976

It is really very impressive - quiet, refined and really easy to use. Seriously well equipped too. I drove it first in Japan on a track and had a go of one the other day in Mondello. I should have one soon for a week.

carchaeologist

paddy1976 wrote: »

It is really very impressive - quiet, refined and really easy to use. Seriously well equipped too. I drove it first in Japan on a track and had a go of one the other day in Mondello. I should have one soon for a week.

It seems to tick all the right boxes alright, it will be interesting to see how it sells.

Absurdum

paddy1976 wrote: »

It is really very impressive - quiet, refined and really easy to use. Seriously well equipped too. I drove it first in Japan on a track and had a go of one the other day in Mondello. I should have one soon for a week.

What kind of range was it managing on a track???

paddy1976

Ha, not much. I was in it explaining electric cars to Eddie Hobbs for a later version of the Consumer Show - but after a few slow laps the range did drop a lot. The 'best' it is likely to do is 160km. My best guess is that 110km would be about the average for it. I havent had the car for any great length of time yet.

But I was disappointed with the iMiev when I had it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2010/0407/1224267823218.html

VolvoMan

That 175km range would be a deal breaker for me.

ShadowHearth

paddy1976 wrote: »

Ha, not much. I was in it explaining electric cars to Eddie Hobbs for a later version of the Consumer Show - but after a few slow laps the range did drop a lot. The 'best' it is likely to do is 160km. My best guess is that 110km would be about the average for it. I havent had the car for any great length of time yet.

But I was disappointed with the iMiev when I had it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2010/0407/1224267823218.html

3 puntos for the price of 1 imev... that just nailed it.

It looked like you are allways have to be thinking of how many miles you still got left... alot of people forget to charge theyr mobile phones... it would be really pain in a hole, when you wake up in the morning and realise: " fudge! i forgot to charge up my car!" . so instead of getting some petrol and sorting it out in 5 mins, it will tkae you quite alot of time...

Max_Damage

The recharging period / range will always be the main downfall for electric cars.

Hydrogen is indeed the future.

Daegerty

Max_Damage wrote: »

The recharging period / range will always be the main downfall for electric cars.

Hydrogen is indeed the future.

Hydrogen is woefully inefficient to produce and still relies on an all electric drivetrain, including a ~7KWh 'buffer' battery to pick up the slack when the fuel cell can't deliver enough power, distribution issues and a lot harder to produce than electricity.

For people like me who very rarely travel more than 100km in a day its ideal, even if I do travel too far a couple of hours charge at my destination should sort me out. Until range issues are completely sorted one can always keep a little Polo in the shed for those infrequent long journeys

I must say it looks awful, the Ford Focus BEV looks more promising

Casati

I had a quick spin in one of them and was well impressed- its really well put together relative to other Nissan's at least and has a massive spec for a car in this class, inc a great Sat Nav as standard.

It had very reasonable poke off the line, certainly fast enough to drive around the city/ sub-urban area without trouble. The centre of gravity is low- the batteries and thus a lot of weight are low between front and back wheels, with helps with the handling, though I didnt get a chance to really throw it around!

Most impressive was how smooth the drive was, their is really minimum vibration and as such is a pleasant place to drift along in. Nice if a little out of fashion are the velour seats - similar to the Prius.

Space inside is similar to Golf/ Auris etc so fine for most people and familes.Boot is fine but had a massive torsion bar fitted, looked a bit off as its not 350Z

'Engine' looks conventional as they they fitted a fake plastic engine head, but if you take it off it will look similar to something in a washing machine!

Overall the most compelling piece is low of running costs- to run it on €5 per week is fantastic- even if the total cost of ownership remains questionable. As mentioned, I think it would be a great second car, as long as you had something else for the longer drives around the country

littletiger

Drove it during its promotional trip to Kilkenny.

It's way too expensive 31k delivered with the pv cell.

Its smaller than a focus

raveydavey

Rubbish. 31k???? You're havin a laugh?
How much is the battery rental/tax? Its not free as you said.
And are you telling me that when I'm driving home to Donegal on a Friday night it'll take me 11hrs?? (drive and recharge time). What if its nightime driving, in the rain? Lights, wipers, heater..etc? Whats the range then?
And why would someone buy one in the knowledge that its construction has a carbon footprint of about 10 times that of a "normal car".
Are these the same fools who think that a Prius is good for the environment even though my new 2.0ltr diesel Audi gets better mpg?
Lots LOTS more needs to be done before I'd even consider getting one of these bangers.
Rant over.

x in the city

nice in theory but when I struggle to get petrol between Cork and Dublin on motorway, god help anyone doing any serious driving on these yokes.

Even on short routes i dont see the infrastructure in prehistoric Ireland to charge up these babies

So in true dragons den style..

Im out.

Max_Damage

raveydavey wrote: »

Rubbish. 31k???? You're havin a laugh?
How much is the battery rental/tax? Its not free as you said.
And are you telling me that when I'm driving home to Donegal on a Friday night it'll take me 11hrs?? (drive and recharge time). What if its nightime driving, in the rain? Lights, wipers, heater..etc? Whats the range then?
And why would someone buy one in the knowledge that its construction has a carbon footprint of about 10 times that of a "normal car".
Are these the same fools who think that a Prius is good for the environment even though my new 2.0ltr diesel Audi gets better mpg?
Lots LOTS more needs to be done before I'd even consider getting one of these bangers.
Rant over.

Sure I remember a survey done a few years ago showed the most eco vehicle (from manufacture to longevity) was a Jeep Wrangler 4.0L!

Casati

The intention is not to replace diesel cars for the long Dublin to Cork type trips, even with fast charge electric points (apparently 40 mins) I cant see many Leaf's used for long journeys.

However most journeys take taken are less than 20km so the limitations are not as real as you might think. 30k is not cheap, but factor in running costs over an assumed 10 year life span and the overall ownership cost starts to make sense. When diesel hits €2.00 a litre it will make even the sub 120 g co2 diesel cars expensive to run around town


No rental for the battery- that is going to be an option with the Renault Fluence, I think that will cost 23k but rental will be another €70 per month on top

I think the Prius plug in might be the one to to wait for, will give the option of petrol power when needed- though the overall weight is likely to be an issue

positron

raveydavey wrote: »

And are you telling me that when I'm driving home to Donegal on a Friday night it'll take me 11hrs?? (drive and recharge time).

And my laptop is so rubbish at making coffee, and can you believe my fridge won't take my dog for a walk?! How dare they sell cr*p like this!

galwaytt

Max_Damage wrote: »

Hydrogen is indeed the future.

...I'm afraid it isn't.

A whole new parallel fuel infrastructure, for a fuel whose molecules are small enough to pass through most materials.........you'll lose more in leakage than you'll save.

And that's before you work out it cost's more to generate hydrogen than you'll get for it........

The answer, like the elephant in the room, is electricity from fusion/fission.

Joe 90

ShadowHearth wrote: »

3 puntos for the price of 1 imev... that just nailed it.

It looked like you are allways have to be thinking of how many miles you still got left... alot of people forget to charge theyr mobile phones... it would be really pain in a hole, when you wake up in the morning and realise: " fudge! i forgot to charge up my car!" . so instead of getting some petrol and sorting it out in 5 mins, it will tkae you quite alot of time...

Even worse, imagine a lot of these on the roads trying to eke out the last few miles left in the battery while travelling at a slow walking pace. If they sell in any number I foresee chaos.

Bruthal

It might be ideal for the 40 or 50 mile a day drivers though. And charge it up on a night rate meter at home and its half the daytime charging rate as well. Its hardly intended to replace cars of people who drive up and down the country.

Viper_JB

Whole loada money for a whole load of inconvenience you would wanna be a bit mad to go out and spend real money on this car.

positron

I wonder if anyone has done a total cost of ownership comparison between this and similarly size fossil fuel car. We can clearly see the difference in intial price, and can guestimate what the depreciation would be over 5 years, and we know that there's no tax - but how does this compare in cost of fuel? How much would it cost to charge at home, and/or at various outlets. What would be maintenance like etc.

I am really looking forward to someone using the same technology and coming up with a brilliant commuter motorbike!

Bruthal

positron wrote: »

How much would it cost to charge at home, and/or at various outlets. What would be maintenance like etc.

I am really looking forward to someone using the same technology and coming up with a brilliant commuter motorbike!

I think it said somewhere that its a 24kwh battery, so to fully charge that using 24kwh`s or 24 units at home would be about €3.80. So whatever range it has thats the cost for that range. €1.90 if charged on the night rate tariff.

dynamick

The battery is not leased - you buy it with the car.

Road tax 104/yr
electricity 232/yr
insurance ?
depreciation (hybrid depreciation has been good - but what happens as end of battery life approaches?)
maintenance ? (you'd expect it to be lower no oil changes, no fuel & air filters)

The purchase price is still too high compared to regular cars but it may sell well in markets like Denmark where it will be cheaper than a Golf.

positron

Okay, just doing some quick figures, assuming the buyer keeps the new car for 5 years.

Initial cost: 30k compared to 15k for a similar sized fossil fuel car.

So Leaf scores -15k there.

Road Tax - €104 compared to say €400 for a 1.4/1.6? So that's €300 pa saved there. Electic is still down by €13.5k.

Fuel: Approximat'ing from robbie7730 figures, let'ss ay it's €2 for 150 kms.

And taking my own case an example, I would do 50 kms each way daily, and taking into motorway and waiting in traffic, I would round it to 70 kms each way, and assuming I go to work 45 weeks a year, that's 31500 kms a year. So that's €420 worth of electricity. Assuming a 1.4/1.6 gives 50mpg (21 kpl), I would need need 1500 litre of juice, which at approximately 1.50 a litre, is €2250. That's savings of €1830 per year, which works out as €9150 saved in fuel!! :eek:

Electric car is now only down by just 4350 at this stage.

Now there's difference in maintenance costs, which I hope would be less for Leaf compared to fossil fuel cars, and of course there's battery, which is guaranteed for 5 years from what I hear. Then there's depreciation.

So in short, is it safe to say that if you do really long commutes within Leav's comfortable battery range, it could make sense to go with Leaf, wiithout even going into the other benefits of owning a electric car?

Bruthal

positron wrote: »

Okay, just doing some quick figures, assuming the buyer keeps the new car for 5 years.

Initial cost: 30k compared to 15k for a similar sized fossil fuel car.

So Leaf scores -15k there.

Road Tax - €104 compared to say €400 for a 1.4/1.6? So that's €300 pa saved there. Electic is still down by €13.5k.

Fuel: Approximat'ing from robbie7730 figures, let'ss ay it's €2 for 150 kms.

And taking my own case an example, I would do 50 kms each way daily, and taking into motorway and waiting in traffic, I would round it to 70 kms each way, and assuming I go to work 45 weeks a year, that's 31500 kms a year. So that's €420 worth of electricity. Assuming a 1.4/1.6 gives 50mpg (21 kpl), I would need need 1500 litre of juice, which at approximately 1.50 a litre, is €2250. That's savings of €1830 per year, which works out as €9150 saved in fuel!! :eek:

Electric car is now only down by just 4350 at this stage.

Dont forget though that the €2 euro for 150km would be using night rate electricity, it would be €4 if charged during the daytime assuming the car does take 24kwh`s for a full charge.

Normally it is hard to make up the difference in standing charge for dual rate electricity meters, people have to stop using washing machines, water heaters etc in the daytime and use at night on timers to make it up, but it would be a big incentive to have the dual meter if you were charging a car each night.

The difference is less than €10 euro per bill i think so in terms of charging a car every night it would be negligible having the dual rate meter with its extra standing charge.

RandomAccess

EV's are not yet practical for me as the range is too short for the 20% of my trips which are quite long.

It looks fairly meh.. as well.

I find the idea of range extender vehicles a bit ridiculous, buying and then hauling around an engine simply to get additional range for my 20% of trips would not really be clever.

I suppose ideally I could have two cars, but our insurance and taxation schemes won't like that very much.. ho hum.. Will have to stick to burning the dino's for now.

Happycamper79

If you just look at economics of owning a car, why wouldn't we all be driving a toyota auris/ golf that the sum of the depreciation plus the maintenance pluse the fuel cost over 3-5 years average car ownership is the least (OK i did this about 4 years ago.... but the idea is the same)....

Answer is that people like to be different... and the Leaf certainly gives you that.

If you have the right driving profile, then the leaf will be quite good for you. If you have the wrong profile, then not even nissan are saying you should buy it. It's a town / city car. It's nothing else. Worldwide that is probably a significant portion of the market, and this, as an early adopters car will be well worth considering.

If I look at positrons excellent analysis and change the fuel price to €2.... it makes it even better.... which is what diesel will hit within a few years, i guess.

My tupence

x in the city

wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much hassle, f**k that. anyone would have to be mad to buy this yoke, wires and chargers dangling thru windows at night time..

riiiiiiight.!!

not to mention $hitting yourself troddling along at 10km/hr looking in vain for a charging point on the way home.

bring on V6 Lump anyday.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

positron

x in the city wrote: »

wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too much hassle, f**k that.

In 1903, the president of the Michigan Savings Bank advised Henry Ford’s lawyer not to invest in Ford Motor Company, saying, “The horse is here to stay but the automobile is only a novelty, a fad.”

http://www.chevroncars.com/learn/cars/history-horse-cars

Casati

positron wrote: »

Okay, just doing some quick figures, assuming the buyer keeps the new car for 5 years.

Initial cost: 30k compared to 15k for a similar sized fossil fuel car.

So Leaf scores -15k there.

Road Tax - €104 compared to say €400 for a 1.4/1.6? So that's €300 pa saved there. Electic is still down by €13.5k.

Fuel: Approximat'ing from robbie7730 figures, let'ss ay it's €2 for 150 kms.

And taking my own case an example, I would do 50 kms each way daily, and taking into motorway and waiting in traffic, I would round it to 70 kms each way, and assuming I go to work 45 weeks a year, that's 31500 kms a year. So that's €420 worth of electricity. Assuming a 1.4/1.6 gives 50mpg (21 kpl), I would need need 1500 litre of juice, which at approximately 1.50 a litre, is €2250. That's savings of €1830 per year, which works out as €9150 saved in fuel!! :eek:

Electric car is now only down by just 4350 at this stage.

Now there's difference in maintenance costs, which I hope would be less for Leaf compared to fossil fuel cars, and of course there's battery, which is guaranteed for 5 years from what I hear. Then there's depreciation.

So in short, is it safe to say that if you do really long commutes within Leav's comfortable battery range, it could make sense to go with Leaf, wiithout even going into the other benefits of owning a electric car?

What are you comparing it against, an auto Micra? The Leaf is a Focus sized car (just about) so a realistic comparison would be something like Auris 1.6 MM Sport, or an Audi A3 1.2 TSI DSG... with a similar level of spec those cars will run you over €25k, so the initial delta is closer to 5k than 15k

Daegerty

Auto micra is for people who can't drive and don't want to drive either. I often wondered did the 55+ year old lady come with the car when they bought it

Bruthal

Casati wrote: »

What are you comparing it against, an auto Micra? The Leaf is a Focus sized car (just about) so a realistic comparison would be something like Auris 1.6 MM Sport, or an Audi A3 1.2 TSI DSG... with a similar level of spec those cars will run you over €25k, so the initial delta is closer to 5k than 15k

Well its probably better to compare it in worse off case scenario and see how it still gets most of its cost back, without even factoring in the probable lower maintenance as well.

Bruthal

Daegerty wrote: »

Auto micra is for people who can't drive and don't want to drive either. I often wondered did the 55+ year old lady come with the car when they bought it

We all wont be able to drive someday. How can the person that buys the car come with it:)

Daegerty

robbie7730 wrote: »

We all wont be able to drive someday.

I'd rather walk or starve than be seen dead in one of those

Daegerty

robbie7730 wrote: »

We all wont be able to drive someday. How can the person that buys the car come with it:)

Maybe someone else buys it because they cant afford a real car yet

Bruthal

Daegerty wrote: »

I'd rather walk or starve than be seen dead in one of those

Sounds good saying that here, but if you were out in lasing rain with a 10 mile walk ahead i bet you would be glad of the lift.

Bruthal

Daegerty wrote: »

Maybe someone else buys it because they cant afford a real car yet

Well some like to spend 30k on cars, others have no interest in impressing others and just get a car because they have to, nothing to do with afford with some.

Daegerty

robbie7730 wrote: »

Sounds good saying that here, but if you were out in lasing rain with a 10 mile walk ahead i bet you would be glad of the lift.

I must say the walk still looks like a decent option than being crouched up in one of those

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well some like to spend 30k on cars, others have no interest in impressing others and just get a car because they have to, nothing to do with afford with some.

Even a rustbucket corolla is better. Just saying that Micra drivers, definitly the Auto ones have no interest in being on the road or cars or anything what so ever. It screams of "I'd rather be home watching Corrie"

Bruthal

Daegerty wrote: »

Even a rustbucket corolla is better. Just saying that Micra drivers, definitly the Auto ones have no interest in being on the road or cars or anything what so ever. It screams of "I'd rather be home watching Corrie"

O its the micra your talkin about, im beginnin to see your reasoning now:D

Daegerty

robbie7730 wrote: »

O its the micra your talkin about, im beginnin to see your reasoning now:D

Of course lad. I wouldn't mind the Leaf myself, I'm sure it has more get up and go than a Micra and it's a reasonable size

I don't know why people buy the automatic micra, the kind of people that do only use 2nd gear anyway and probably drive off in that gear

Bruthal

Daegerty wrote: »

Of course lad. I wouldn't mind the Leaf myself, I'm sure it has more get up and go than a Micra and it's a reasonable size

I don't know why people buy the automatic micra, the kind of people that do only use 2nd gear anyway and probably drive off in that gear

Yea id drive that leaf around no bother myself.

Paparazzo

There's also a drop in battery performance when the weather gets cold. Definitely not for me. And if all of a sudden everyone started to buy them, tax on electricity would shoot up and there would be a swift change in the motor tax laws.

ESB are putting charge points across the country. You can get one outside your house if you want too.
Apartment owners are ruled out of owning one

Daegerty

do most people not have a charging point in their garage?

the good news is that the battery won't deteriorate nearly as fast in our cold and miserable climate

Bruthal

Paparazzo wrote: »

There's also a drop in battery performance when the weather gets cold. Definitely not for me. And if all of a sudden everyone started to buy them, tax on electricity would shoot up and there would be a swift change in the motor tax laws.

ESB are putting charge points across the country. You can get one outside your house if you want too.
Apartment owners are ruled out of owning one

Electrical people can install them, house owners wont need to get them specially installed any more than getting an electric shower installed, its just a new circuit from the distribution board.

Bruthal

Daegerty wrote: »

do most people not have a charging point in their garage?

the good news is that the battery won't deteriorate nearly as fast in our cold and miserable climate

It would probably need a 32amp or 40 amp dedicated circuit installed like a cooker or shower has. Although if its a 24kwh battery and standard charging takes 8 hours then a 20 amp circuit would do that.

Bruthal

I`d say the main problem in cold weather would be heating in the car itself, that would have to be electric heating, so reduced range.

Daegerty

robbie7730 wrote: »

It would probably need a 32amp or 40 amp dedicated circuit installed like a cooker or shower has. Although if its a 24kwh battery and standard charging takes 8 hours then a 20 amp circuit would do that.

A lot of people probably wouldn't even need the faster charger. Night rate electricity would be worth getting though

ted1

a three phase supply would be ideal. You could then use a quick charge.

Daegerty

robbie7730 wrote: »

I`d say the main problem in cold weather would be heating in the car itself, that would have to be electric heating, so reduced range.

Back when Citroen made electric Saxo's and Berlingos they had the sense of putting a little petrol or oil heater in it. You'd actually fill the car up with petrol as normal but it would only take 5L and was only used for the heater

Of course now that doesn't look good with green fanatics whom this car is targetted to be sold to but those heater coulld see a resurgence in future electric cars

I could be wrong now but for the Leaf it might use the air conditioner on reverse as heating so the range reduction wouldn't be so bad