Are natural footballers 'born'....?

stumpypeeps

tallaghtmick wrote: »

so we should all follow what 1 person has written???how many scientists have argued back and forth over the years with different opinions yet YOU and that author are correct and the rest of us are fools???

I'll give you the two most obvious examples i can think of. Tiger woods and Michael Schumacher. Both the greatest of their generation in their respective sports.

Neither of whom had parents with a history of success in their sports.

Both started at 2/3 years of age. Both of whom's parents made huge sacrifices to help their son achive success.

I have always believed that its more nurture than nature. Bounce just gave my beliefs a solid scientific basis.

tallaghtmick

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I'll give you the two most obvious examples i can think of. Tiger woods and Michael Schumacher. Both the greatest of their generation in their respective sports.

Neither of whom had parents with a history of success in their sports.

Both started at 2/3 years of age. Both of whom's parents made huge sacrifices to help their son achive success.

I have always believed that its more nurture than nature. Bounce just gave my beliefs a solid scientific basis.

two sports where no running is involved we are talking about football here as the op mentioned,dont get me wrong lots of practice is needed but your genes do come into it.

Fittle

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I'll give you the two most obvious examples i can think of. Tiger woods and Michael Schumacher. Both the greatest of their generation in their respective sports.

Neither of whom had parents with a history of success in their sports.

Both started at 2/3 years of age. Both of whom's parents made huge sacrifices to help their son achive success.

I have always believed that its more nurture than nature. Bounce just gave my beliefs a solid scientific basis.

Have to agree with tallaghmick here.

Neither sport has any physical involvement really...how hard is it to teach your kid to play golf or drive a racing car Soccer is quite different.

I think perseverance is the main attribute in both of the above sports.

But I think that natural ability is more prevelant in soccer.

stumpypeeps

tallaghtmick wrote: »

two sports where no running is involved we are talking about football here as the op mentioned,dont get me wrong lots of practice is needed but your genes do come into it.

One last extract, but based around a very well known phenomenon concerning ice hockey in canada.

In the mid-1980s Roger Barnsley, a Canadian psychologist,
was with his family at a Lethbridge Broncos ice hockey game
when he was alerted by his wife – who was leafing through the
programme – to what looked like an extraordinary coincidence:
many of the players had birthdays in the early months of the
calendar.
‘I thought she was crazy,’ Barnsley told Gladwell. ‘But I
looked through it, and what she was saying just jumped out at
me. For some reason, there were an incredible number of
January, February, and March birth dates.’
What was going on? Had a genetic mutation affected only
those Canadian ice hockey players born in the early part of the
year? Was it something to do with the alignment of the stars in
the early part of the calendar?
In fact the explanation was simple: the eligibility cut-off date
for all age-based ice hockey in Canada is 1 January. That means
that a ten-year-old boy born in January could be playing
alongside another boy born almost twelve months later. This
difference in age can represent a huge difference in terms of
physical development at that time of life.
As Gladwell puts it:
This being Canada, the most ice hockey-crazed country on earth,
coaches start to select players for the travelling rep squad – the
all-star teams – at the age of nine or ten, and of course they are
more likely to view as talented the bigger and more coordinated
players, who have had the benefit of critical extra months of
maturity
And what happens when a player gets chosen for a rep squad?
He gets better coaching, and his teammates are better, and he
plays fifty or seventy-five games a season instead of twenty
games a season . . . By the age of thirteen or fourteen, with the
benefit of better coaching and all that extra practice under his
belt, he’s the one more likely to make it to the Major Junior A
League, and from there into the big leagues.
The skewed distribution of birth dates is not limited to the
Canadian junior ice hockey league. It is also seen in European
youth football, and US youth baseball; indeed, most sports in
which age-based selection and streaming are part of the process
of moulding the stars of the future.

tallaghtmick

http://www.whas11.com/sports/The-Sports-Gene-Could-your-kid-have-the-DNA-to-be-a-superstar-85852257.html

few paragraphs down

Thanks to new genetic testing we now may be able to see if our children have the DNA building blocks to become elite athletes.
And it's all based on one little gene.
Dr. Mark Rothstein, Professor of Bio-ethics at UofL School of Medicine, said, “The actn-3 gene was discovered in Australia a few years ago and it measures whether individuals have a fast-twitch or a slow-twitch predominance."
This means slow twitch fibers are very strong and great in short bursts, think NFL offensive lineman strong.
And simply put, fast twitch fibers are what make track stars so fast.
If you want your kid to be a blur on the track, you better hope they're loaded with fast twitch.

we can argue forever about this now :pac:

partyndbs

made imo

stumpypeeps

Fittle wrote: »

Have to agree with tallaghmick here.

Neither sport has any physical involvement really...how hard is it to teach your kid to play golf or drive a racing car Soccer is quite different.

I think perseverance is the main attribute in both of the above sports.

But I think that natural ability is more prevelant in soccer.

There is no such thing as natural ability, only the amount of time and effort dedicated and the quality of that time between childhood and adolescence.

Golf is a game of huge ability, much more so than football. Motor racing requires phenomenal stamina (lose up to 10 to 15 kilos during certain races and heart rate remains over 150 bpm for the duration) and amazing reactions. All of which are ingrained at an early age.

Fromvert

Fittle wrote: »

Have to agree with tallaghmick here.

Neither sport has any physical involvement really...how hard is it to teach your kid to play golf or drive a racing car Soccer is quite different.

I think perseverance is the main attribute in both of the above sports.

But I think that natural ability is more prevelant in soccer.

It's just as difficult to reach the top level in any sport.

GLaDOS

stumpypeeps wrote: »

One last extract, but based around a very well known phenomenon concerning ice hockey in canada.

Similar in this article by cracked

If 80s movies have taught us anything, it's that being a high school sports star requires only beefcake, a cheerleader girlfriend and a complete lack of basic human empathy. In reality, it takes a lot of hard work, but you still need to have the right birthday.
Researchers from The University of Queensland analyzed the birthdays of Australian soccer players and discovered that the month in which you are born plays a huge role in your athletic success. They found that there were 33 percent more professional soccer players than expected born in the month of January and 25 percent fewer born in December.

When his birth date kept him out of the professional leagues, he went with the next best thing.

The Australian school year starts in January (because their seasons are upside-down), so kids born in that month are almost a full year older than the December-born kids who join a team in the same year of high school. Because kids grow like crazy, the ones who are just a little older tend to crush their slightly younger opposition. It's enough of an effect that, by the end of schooling, graduating sports stars are toned, athletic, January-born supersoldiers, while their December-born classmates are broken shells of human beings who turn to accounting or Internet comedy writing.

Someone has to keep Wild Turkey in business.

The bad luck doesn't end there for those born on the wrong side of summer. A recent Michigan State University study shows that the youngest kids in a class are 60 percent more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD than their older peers. It's not due to brain injuries suffered by being held head-first in a toilet bowl by older jocks -- quite simply, the youngest kids are less mature than their older classmates, and some pediatricians make the mistake of diagnosing kids based on their grade at school rather than their age.
The effect is most noticeable in kindergarten. Kids born at the end of September, after the enrollment cutoff, wind up in classes with kids born at the beginning of September of the following year. So when playtime rolls around and Johnny picks up See Spot Run while Timmy just messes around with the hamburger phone, the teacher assumes that Johnny is a prodigy and that there's something wrong with Timmy's brain.

Teachers -- making the world a worse place one shattered dream at a time.

Obviously not a serious article but still based on fact

tallaghtmick

stumpypeeps wrote: »

There is no such thing as natural ability, only the amount of time and effort dedicated and the quality of that time between childhood and adolescence.

QUOTE]


in your opinion;)

Melion

I always thought it was training etc that made players world class. But when you watch Zidane, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo(The real one), Messi etc you have to question if they were just lucky enough to be born with the talent already and had to work that little bit less than everyone else

bamboozling

The point about birthdays is true. I'm January and I grew hugely the summer I was 15. It meant that the next season when playing rugby instead of playing 18's and being one of a number of big lads I was playing 16's and the biggest lad there and frankly killing lads. I came on leaps and bounds and improved so much as a player. Were I born 1 month earlier I probably would have done so well.

With regards Fittle there really isn't much you can do to get him professional. Don't go worrying about whether he'll make it as a professional or not chances are he loves the game and will end up playing casually. The people on this forum all have a great passion for football but no one I'm aware of ever played at a decent level. That won't diminish our passion. If he's good he'll get spotted end of.

We've all been there fantasising about our future career when young. I remember out on my lawn every day it was me, my ball, my pet labradour, the gable end and a set of goalposts. I would dream up a scenario, maybe the fa cup, kick the ball off the wall, get on the end of it, avoid the dog(defender) and slot it into an empty net immeadiatly becoming an instant Liverpool legend. All the while giving an out loud commentary and the attempting a Robbie Keane cartwheel which never came off. Its part of learning the game and practicing. If he's outside practicing on his own in the rain let him off. The fact that he's doing it in those kind of conditions is brilliant.

With regards his international alliegence and all that don't worry about it. Once he gets to about 11 or 12 he'll realise his limitations and start seeing other players better than him for what they are. You probably shouldn't delude him by agreeing wholeheartedly that he will soon become a superstar, at the same time don't dismiss it out of hand either.

Be there and support him at the matches and try and get him to focus on passing, movement etcetera instead of fancy skills. Maybe when Barcelona play Arsenal Tuesday week get him to focus on number 6 Xavi, instead of Messi so he understands better movement, passing and ball retention. At the moment by trying all the skills he's learning to run before he can walk.

Hope this helps.

stumpypeeps

tallaghtmick wrote: »

stumpypeeps wrote: »

There is no such thing as natural ability, only the amount of time and effort dedicated and the quality of that time between childhood and adolescence.

QUOTE]


in your opinion;)

Of course, but its an opinion I've spent a good bit of time formulating.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. Which is particularly sad.

Fittle

Fromvert wrote: »

It's just as difficult to reach the top level in any sport.

But I think that it's difficult in a different way for many sports.

Stamina and Determination for golf for example.

But skill would be the biggie in soccer imo

I know a 14yr old who was small and athletic. He's gone on to become a pretty impressive jockey for example - but only because of his build, and because someone saw something in him, and encouraged it.

tallaghtmick

stumpypeeps wrote: »

tallaghtmick wrote: »

Of course, but its an opinion I've spent a good bit of time formulating.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. Which is particularly sad.

makes you intellectual it must be in your ge......no im gone lol

Melion

Fittle wrote: »

But I think that it's difficult in a different way for many sports.

Stamina and Determination for golf for example.

But skill would be the biggie in soccer imo

I know a 14yr old who was small and athletic. He's gone on to become a pretty impressive jockey for example - but only because of his build, and because someone saw something in him, and encouraged it.

Skill isnt important in soccer. I hate seeing kids nowadays doing stepovers and practicing diving. Unless of course he wants to be a street footballer. There is no point in being able to do 100 kick-ups if you cant pass a pall 20 yards to a teammate

stumpypeeps

Fittle wrote: »

But I think that it's difficult in a different way for many sports.

Stamina and Determination for golf for example.

But skill would be the biggie in soccer imo

I know a 14yr old who was small and athletic. He's gone on to become a pretty impressive jockey for example - but only because of his build, and because someone saw something in him, and encouraged it.

Having played both, golf requires a tremendous amount of skill, coordination and technique. Much more than football imo. I think your average handicap golfer will attest to that.

Fittle

bamboozling wrote: »

The point about birthdays is true. I'm January and I grew hugely the summer I was 15. It meant that the next season when playing rugby instead of playing 18's and being one of a number of big lads I was playing 16's and the biggest lad there and frankly killing lads. I came on leaps and bounds and improved so much as a player. Were I born 1 month earlier I probably would have done so well.

With regards Fittle there really isn't much you can do to get him professional. Don't go worrying about whether he'll make it as a professional or not chances are he loves the game and will end up playing casually. The people on this forum all have a great passion for football but no one I'm aware of ever played at a decent level. That won't diminish our passion. If he's good he'll get spotted end of.

We've all been there fantasising about our future career when young. I remember out on my lawn every day it was me, my ball, my pet labradour, the gable end and a set of goalposts. I would dream up a scenario, maybe the fa cup, kick the ball off the wall, get on the end of it, avoid the dog(defender) and slot it into an empty net immeadiatly becoming an instant Liverpool legend. All the while giving an out loud commentary and the attempting a Robbie Keane cartwheel which never came off. Its part of learning the game and practicing. If he's outside practicing on his own in the rain let him off. The fact that he's doing it in those kind of conditions is brilliant.

With regards his international alliegence and all that don't worry about it. Once he gets to about 11 or 12 he'll realise his limitations and start seeing other players better than him for what they are. You probably shouldn't delude him by agreeing wholeheartedly that he will soon become a superstar, at the same time don't dismiss it out of hand either.

Be there and support him at the matches and try and get him to focus on passing, movement etcetera instead of fancy skills. Maybe when Barcelona play Arsenal Tuesday week get him to focus on number 8 Xavi, instead of Messi so he understands better movement, passing and ball retention. At the moment by trying all the skills he's learning to run before he can walk.

Hope this helps.

Great post, thanks:D:D

And I'd like to say again that I'm not telling him that he will play for Man U or Irl when he's older. He's just at that age when he believes he will......it's really not coming from me, just that belief we all had when we were 8, that we could do whatever the fcuk we wanted to (pardon my language):D

Thanks again, great advice.

Fittle

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Having played both, golf requires a tremendous amount of skill, coordination and technique. Much more than football imo. I think your average handicap golfer will attest to that.

But not at 8, surely?

Fromvert

Well to be jockey, genes is a big help, you have to be small enough and slight. Of course there are exceptions, Ruby being 5 foot 10 is a big jockey.

Golf is also a very skillful game.

All sports are the same and you need the same qualities for them, skill, determination, coordination, stamina, practice and the mentality for it.

None are easier or harder to reach the top.

Melion

Fittle wrote: »

But not at 8, surely?

At 8 years of age, he should be learning how to pass a ball properly and proper technique etc, perfecting tackles. Not learning how to do tricks

Blatter

Natural talent is a myth IMO.

As others have said, what makes somebody a great footballer is Three things.

1.Start playing at an early age.
2.Have good coaches and be thought how to play properly.(This is important. Remember practice dosent make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect)
3.Constant practice and unbelievable dedication.

This is shown throughout the world, Brazil and Argentina produce the best footballers in the world. It's no surprise that both these countries are embroiled in poverty and their kids play football for hours and hours a day.

Fittle

Melion wrote: »

At 8 years of age, he should be learning how to pass a ball properly and proper technique etc, perfecting tackles. Not learning how to do tricks

And thats what he does, two nights a week at training, and at a match on sundays.

It's during the week, after homework, that he'll have a look at youtube to practice tricks.

partyndbs

yeah but what seperates the kid who both play for 10 hours each? not natural talent but speed coordination agility strength etc. its not 'natural talent' like no1 is born to be able to do unreal skills but physical attributes make them better

Melion

Fittle wrote: »

And thats what he does, two nights a week at training, and at a match on sundays.

It's during the week, after homework, that he'll have a look at youtube to practice tricks.

He doesnt need to be practicing tricks. Thats not what football is about. Give him a ball and tell him to go out and pass it against the wall, using both feet and tell him to try and trap it and control it as the ball comes back to him.

Mars Bar

Fittle wrote: »

And thats what he does, two nights a week at training, and at a match on sundays.

It's during the week, after homework, that he'll have a look at youtube to practice tricks.

The time spent watching those videos would be much better spent outside kicking the ball off the wall with one touch. That's what makes the difference. The skills and tricks are the luxuries one can afford when the rest is perfected.

EDIT: Snap Melion!

Fittle

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Natural talent is a myth IMO.

As others have said, what makes somebody a great footballer is Three things.

1.Start playing at an early age.
2.Have good coaches and be thought how to play properly.(This is important. Remember practice dosent make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect)
3.Constant practice and unbelievable dedication.

This is shown throughout the world, Brazil and Argentina produce the best footballers in the world. It's no surprise that both these countries are embroiled in poverty and their kids play football for hours and hours a day.

Ok.

1. He didn't start till he was almost 8.
2. His trainers aren't great - tends to be a dad most weeks..most weeks the same Dad, some weeks, a diffrent dad. I've tried to change teams for him, because I'm not impressed with the set-up at the team he's on, but truth be told, it suits the times I get home from work, it's local, and it's cheap (I had tried two other teams but couldn't get him to training on time and subs were OTT)
3. He practices all day on the road and every evening in the house

bamboozling

Fittle wrote: »

But not at 8, surely?

Ya Golf and F1, the two sports you mentioned, are far tougher at that age than soccer.

They are both perfection sports and individual so everything has to be perfect. In golf 1 bad shot out of 100 decent ones and you might not win the tournament.

In F1 one mistake and you could be in the barriers game over. Don't forget the chance of injury in f1. The reflexes in f1 are quite simply extraordinary and driving an f1 car is a million times harder than your normal road car. These guys are so elite its not funny.

1 poor pass in football and it won't make a huge amount of difference. Your team loses the ball and maybe concedes a goal but chances are it won't matter greatly.

At 8 any lad can play soccer, few can play golf, and an extremely low number can drive a kart.

Fittle

Melion wrote: »

He doesnt need to be practicing tricks. Thats not what football is about. Give him a ball and tell him to go out and pass it against the wall, using both feet and tell him to try and trap it and control it as the ball comes back to him.

He spends 3 hours a day on the road playing football already..he plays with his pal who's 7, they have a goalpost and spend the few hours after homework kicking the ball around and scoring goals....I'm in work so can't control exactly what goes on, on the road.

stumpypeeps

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Natural talent is a myth IMO.

As others have said, what makes somebody a great footballer is Three things.

1.Start playing at an early age.
2.Have good coaches and be thought how to play properly.(This is important. Remember practice dosent make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect)
3.Constant practice and unbelievable dedication.

This is shown throughout the world, Brazil and Argentina produce the best footballers in the world. It's no surprise that both these countries are embroiled in poverty and their kids play football for hours and hours a day.

Agree wholeheartedly. The greatest example of all is Kilkenny. Look at their success, are people going to suggest that this county has a major abundance of naturally talented athletes? They only seem to produce hurling stars due to the total immersion of their kids in hurling from 3 or 4 years of age. And the quality of the coaching they recieve.

Ditto New Zealand.

Fittle

bamboozling wrote: »

At 8 any lad can play soccer.

I disagree completely.

And if you were at our match at 9.15am this morning, you would agree with me:D

KeithAFC

Some players just have it. Zidane, R9, Messi, Henry etc.

Mars Bar

Fittle wrote: »

I disagree completely.

And if you were at our match at 9.15am this morning, you would agree with me:D

Any kid can play soccer.

Not everyone can play it professionally.

Blatter

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some players just have it. Zidane, R9, Messi, Henry etc.

No, they were thought very well at a very early age, and practised for hours and hours a day.

Again, it's like anything. The best guitar players in the world started at an early age, were thought well and practised for hours and hours every day.

Fittle

Under 8s football at DDSL....

Check it about 1.32...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLCZZAheNSU

bamboozling

mars bar wrote: »

Any kid can play soccer.

Not everyone can play it professionally.

My point exactly. You try and get an 8 year old to play a round of even pitch and putt and watch most fail miserably.

Put them into a kart and well I'd stay well away from the barrier.

Put them onto a soccer pitch for the first time ever, they won't go too far wrong. By the way I think F1 is the hardest sport to reach the top in.

Mars Bar

Fittle wrote: »

Under 8s football at DDSL....

Check it about 1.32...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLCZZAheNSU

That's the most I expect from an 8 year old in Ireland. What are you expecting to see from an 8 year old on the pitch?

I'm not really sure where we're going with this conversation. Are we trying to discuss whether it's natural or can it be developed coz IMO, it's a combination of both. Or are we trying to predict whether your lad can go pro by watching youtube videos of Ronaldo doing tricks?


In poorer countries like Brazil, a lot of the kids have time to develop as they spend hours and hours kicking ball around as a lot of them wouldn't have had schooling or came from a poor background. (obviously not always the case)

At Under 8 level, I'd imagine only Spain can get their youngsters to not run around like headless chickens. They have the youth structure and aren't about beating the parish over the road, it's about technical ability on the ball.
I believe it's part of the school curriculum to play football? I would love to be corrected on that if I'm wrong.


I'm rambling...:o

tallaghtmick

ok i think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves,hes only 8 has played the sport for a few months im sure you will know if he will succeed by the time hes 11 or 12 but the most important thing is and im delighted for him because of it is he has the belief he can do it.

Mars Bar

Anyway, Messi at 10 years of age apparently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMq9JbYR_no

To me, that is a natural ability that has been nurtured. You can't make it without both IMO.

Unfortunately, we don't know how to nurture a special talent here in Ireland. It's usually why children get picked by English clubs and go there and develop. Although, if a child here got scouted by a Spanish club, I'd imagine their natural ability would nurtured to higher degree than it would be in England.

It's why Ireland and England haven't won a World Cup (in years in England's case) and why Spain has.


You reckon your little fella doesn't have the ability. Maybe he does, but it won't be developed in Ireland. But he ****in' loves the game so don't worry about it! That's all that matters.

stumpypeeps

At the age of five, Messi started playing football for Grandoli, a local club coached by his father Jorge

Sound familiar? His dad was a football coach, and he started playing for a club at 5. Thats a nailed on case of a great footballer being developed. Natural talent is a fallacy.

Mars Bar

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Sound familiar? His dad was a football coach, and he started playing for a club at 5. Thats a nailed on case of a great footballer being developed. Natural talent is a fallacy.

If natural talent is a fallacy, then the whole of Spain would be playing professional football!

flahavaj

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Sound familiar? His dad was a football coach, and he started playing for a club at 5. Thats a nailed on case of a great footballer being developed. Natural talent is a fallacy.

Not all lads that are five who's Dad is a coach become footballers.

A combination of application and natural talent is needed in almost all cases of players that make it into the ranks of professional football.

Even then, only the ones that work the hardest and have the most talent make it. So many fall by the wayside.

stumpypeeps

mars bar wrote: »

If natural talent is a fallacy, then the whole of Spain would be playing professional football!

If you actually think rationally about it, Spain had never won any major championship until Barcelona had pioneered the coaching philosophy that currently exists at the club. Based on getting the kids early, playing non competitive games until 11. Small pitches, 3 or 4 aside, one touch etc...Are they producing all these great players because of a sudden burst in "natural talent" or because they have perfected a system of nurturing football players.

sonic85

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Agree wholeheartedly. The greatest example of all is Kilkenny. Look at their success, are people going to suggest that this county has a major abundance of naturally talented athletes? They only seem to produce hurling stars due to the total immersion of their kids in hurling from 3 or 4 years of age. And the quality of the coaching they recieve.

Ditto New Zealand.

this can go either way i think. virtually every able bodied person in kilkenny plays hurling - maybe with the sheer volume of people they have a higher chance of unearthing naturally talented players. the same with new zealand. i mean not everybody in kk is all ireland standard but most of them are trained the same and work as hard as each other. in carlow there are some really dedicated hurlers who have been at it all their lives eat sleep and live hurling but they will never be up to the standard of the top kilkenny hurlers.

Mars Bar

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Sound familiar? His dad was a football coach, and he started playing for a club at 5. Thats a nailed on case of a great footballer being developed. Natural talent is a fallacy.

And 3 years later he was playing for Newell's Old Boys. "Newell's is also notable for their youth divisions, being the club with most national titles in AFA's youth tournaments."

I would love to know how many coaching badges Messi's dad had. Messi's natural ability was identified and nurtured at Newell's Old Boys and then perfected beyond belief at Barcelona.

stumpypeeps

flahavaj wrote: »

Not all lads that are five who's Dad is a coach become footballers.

A combination of application and natural talent is needed in almost all cases of players that make it into the ranks of professional football.

Even then, only the ones that work the hardest and have the most talent make it. So many fall by the wayside.

My assertion is that the ones who work the hardest and practice the most from the earliest age possible make it. "Natural talent" is developed in this way, your not born with it.

Mars Bar

stumpypeeps wrote: »

If you actually think rationally about it, Spain had never won any major championship until Barcelona had pioneered the coaching philosophy that currently exists at the club. Based on getting the kids early, playing non competitive games until 11. Small pitches, 3 or 4 aside, one touch etc...Are they producing all these great players because of a sudden burst in "natural talent" or because they have perfected a system of nurturing football players.

I think it's because they have found the kids with the natural talent and perfected the system of nurturing these players.

My new slogan is: "Identify and Nurture!"

flahavaj

stumpypeeps wrote: »

My assertion is that the ones who work the hardest and practice the most from the earliest age possible make it. "Natural talent" is developed in this way, your not born with it.

How then are some players better than others? Is football skill simply a product of how hard you work in the formative years? It can't just be that. The likes of Best and Maradona had something else that can't be taught.

stumpypeeps

sonic85 wrote: »

this can go either way i think. virtually every able bodied person in kilkenny plays hurling - maybe with the sheer volume of people they have a higher chance of unearthing naturally talented players. the same with new zealand. i mean not everybody in kk is all ireland standard but most of them are trained the same and work as hard as each other. in carlow there are some really dedicated hurlers who have been at it all their lives eat sleep and live hurling but they will never be up to the standard of the top kilkenny hurlers.

I don't agree. Their is nothing genetically inferior about people from Carlow.

Never thought I'd eve say that!

bamboozling

Its coming down to semantics at this stage.

Imo 'Natural Ability' is a handy phrase which is a fallacy really. What makes up natural ability is speed, Decision making, reflexes, coordination, balance and many tangible and intangible things.

Maradona and other all time greats consisted of all the above and then having the application to become brilliant.

That's what 'natural ability' is, mental and physical attributes that you more skill level than other players.

I think Stumpy is phrasing it too strongly these are attributes you have its up to the person to find the sport or activity that best suites them. Example I'm 6' 3" and 17 stone. Much and all as I like soccer it was never a game that suited me so I play 5 a side once or twice a week. Rugby suites me, I play for a club at a decent level..