Make Irish Optional

deise go deo

aine92 wrote: »

When they took Welsh as a language off the curriculum in Wales, the number of people speaking it actually increased. Nobody likes being force fed :rolleyes:

Source? Welsh was never taken off the curriculum, it was introduced about twenty years age as compulsory to the age of 14, this was increased to 16 a few years ago.
The introduction of compulsory Welsh has been recognized as a factor helping in the successful revival of Welsh as a spoken language.

thisisadamh

Do us students have no rights? At the bare minimum we should be allowed to choose what we study!

Violafy

I really can't see why rabid Irish fans are trying to force the language on those who'd simply rather learn another subject which is more relevant to them. (I'm not calling the OP rabid, but some other Irish enthusiasts certainly are). If Irish is made optional... Irish lovers can still learn it and will probably learn more if everyone in the class actually wants to be there. Those who don't have an interest don't need to. It's not that hard to understand. How are people who want to learn Irish possibly missing out?

thisisadamh

Violafy wrote: »

I really can't see why rabid Irish fans are trying to force the language on those who'd simply rather learn another subject which is more relevant to them. (I'm not calling the OP rabid, but some other Irish enthusiasts certainly are). If Irish is made optional... Irish lovers can still learn it and will probably learn more if everyone in the class actually wants to be there. Those who don't have an interest don't need to. It's not that hard to understand. How are people who want to learn Irish possibly missing out?

I agree. I don't get what the big deal is. What is it with allowing some choice.

Violafy

thisisadamh wrote: »

I agree. I don't get what the big deal is. What is it with allowing some choice.

BECAUSE IT'S OUR NATIONAL LANGUAGE etc etc etc. :rolleyes: Seriously though, it's nice that some people show an interest in preserving it but it's just not relevant at all for most people, particularly as a mandatory subject. The course takes up so much time and I doubt I'll ever utter a word of Irish again after this June, as I've just grown to hate it.
Tbh I'll be jealous of students in a few years if they are spared from suffering LC Irish like I have to... :mad::P

deise go deo

Violafy wrote: »

I really can't see why rabid Irish fans are trying to force the language on those who'd simply rather learn another subject which is more relevant to them. (I'm not calling the OP rabid, but some other Irish enthusiasts certainly are). If Irish is made optional... Irish lovers can still learn it and will probably learn more if everyone in the class actually wants to be there. Those who don't have an interest don't need to. It's not that hard to understand. How are people who want to learn Irish possibly missing out?

Its very simple. If Irish was made optional now, Choosing to study it would put people at a disadvantage in the Points race.

Irish has a large and heavily literature based Curriculum. There is a lot of work involved in it compared to other optional subjects.
People would have to put in much more work and sit through far longer exams for the same points.

I love the language, but I would not put my self at a disadvantage just to study it for the LC, I can't imagin anyone doing that.

There are several other factors that would put Irish at a disadvantage when compeating with other subjects for students to choose it. Such as its terrible curriculum.

The Curriculum structure needs to be reformed, Making it optional would threathen the future of the language and rushing into a major change in how the Education system is structured would not be in anyones best interest. A level headed and evidence based approch is called for. Not some mad dash to change the system to suit the minority.

Paul.M92

I personally now think that Irish should be a more oral focused subject. After all, the government wants us to be able to speak it?? So we should be speaking it from day one of primary school, not just writing and rote-learning essays to pass the Junior/Leaving Cert. and any exams that come in between. Its like playing a musical instrument, just because your writing music, it does not mean you are going to be able to play it.

I spent some time in France 2 years ago and from talking to people my age I found that they are not taught written English in the beginning, it is taught later after the foundations have been laid. That is why most of them are good at speaking it.

Going off to all these Irish camps and stuff is all well and good. But the owness is on the Department of Education, and the schools, to lay down a clear, concise, approved framework for the teaching and learning of Irish in the 21st century.

After all, in the multi-cultural society we live in we need to do all we can to keep a tight hold on everything that makes us who we are. That makes us Irish.

Meowth

I think Irish should be optional.... ireland fought for its independence so it could chose and make decisions itself... so why cant young irish people decide what they want to study ?
i studied irish, french and german for my junior cert and i would have kept on french had i not find doing 3 languages too confusing :O if i had the choice though i would still be doing irish .. for the simple fact that i need it to get into primary teaching !
i see my sister struggling to do irish and i really dont understand why our government dont understand that some people just cant learn languages easily while others can ... that means others who are gifted at languages will score higher in irish than others ? kinda putting some teenagers at a disadvantages.... everyone knows if you want to get high points then you have to play to your strengths ...
i dont see why its such a big deal... irish should be a choice

Sunny!!

take off all the stupid stories, poetry and make it like german,french and there would be a guaranteed improvement!

J_E

It's because of Irish that my other subjects suffer sometimes. The course is huge.

electrictrad

Paul.M92 wrote: »

I personally now think that Irish should be a more oral focused subject. After all, the government wants us to be able to speak it?? So we should be speaking it from day one of primary school, not just writing and rote-learning essays to pass the Junior/Leaving Cert. and any exams that come in between. Its like playing a musical instrument, just because your writing music, it does not mean you are going to be able to play it.

Correct. . .to a point. . .

Oral from next year will be 40% of final grade. Thats huge. In fact, some Gaeltacht residents and teachers have expressed unease about this, because they reckon it will lead to a drop in the standard of written Irish among fluent kids, and the actual grammar and spelling standards of Irish among the fluent will drop, because they won't need it. . .the fact that we now have a 40% Oral is, in truth, a bad sign of the state of the language. . .after all, we don't have an English Oral. . .

. . .Secondly, most actually don't rote-learn essays, not in the community school I go to anyway. . .we learn grammar, phrases, nathanna cainte, quotes, theme points, and a few all-purpose sentences, among other things. . .If teachers are instructing students to rote-learn essays (and, by the way, I am a leaving cert myself, so I know it doesn't need to be done), we now know why people hate Irish so much. . .and, more often than not, the teachers are to blame for this. . .

. . .lastly, on an off-point, any child that wants to learn an instrument at the CSM in Cork has to do Musicianship classes first. . .in other words, they learn to read before or when they learn to play. . .the same applies to languages not learned from birth, writing and speaking should go hand-in-hand. . .this ensures the preservation of both the grammatical and spelling structures of a language

electrictrad

Historykitten wrote: »

I think Irish should be optional.... ireland fought for its independence so it could chose and make decisions itself... so why cant young irish people decide what they want to study ?

Young people don't decide on what get to be or not to be compulsory because their subject selections would be detrimental to our national language and heritage(Irish), our ability to attract high-paid, high skilled employment from multi-nationals(Maths), and our national Literacy rates(English) . . .. . .just taking maths for example. . .Ireland attracts the most funding per head from FDI (Foreign Direct Investment) in the world. Those companies come here, because they are guaranteed that everybody in the country has a base level of maths way above other countries, such as France, where maths to le bac standard is optional, just because it's compulsory here. . .if they make maths optional, lots of these companies will leave and go to India. . .so, in a roundabout way, maths being compulsory means you are more likely to have a job when you graduate, even if you hate maths, because the more maths jobs, the more spaces elsewhere. . .

The same concept applies for Irish. . .only that optional Irish would mean that Gaeltacht communities would die out(eventually), the language would be confined to history, a lot of what makes Ireland an attractive tourism brand would disappear, native historians wouldn't be able to read Irish texts in unedited form, and we, as a people, would lose something else of what makes it unique. . .sure, you might hate the language, and never speak it, but thousands of kids go to the Gaeltachts each year. . .if Optional Irish came in, their numbers would halve, and more Gaeltacht people would be forced to move to english-speaking places to find work. . .meaning less employment opportunities for you when you graduate. . .interesting, huh?

fionnsci

One of the last thing keeping the Gaeltachtaí alive is the large number of students who travel there every summer to learn from the locals. Think of the drop of there would be, it would kill the economies.

It would genuinely do huge damge to the language itself also. I'm sympathetic to those that struggle with it and it's terrible that it's compulsory status doesn't mix with them. It really is, and for this, there is no simple answer.

I hate maths. Can't stand it but I accpet that it's necessary for everyone to learn it for education purposes. Can I claim the same for Irish? No, and anyone who tries to is mistaken. But I believe that its worth stretches far beyond that.

It is the only language native to this Island that we will ever have. It's something that I place huge pride and emotional investment in, and I am far from the only one. It is integral to the heritage, the history, the now and the tomorrow of this country.

We will determine whether or not this island will have a language to call its own long after the CAOs are forgotten. Making Irish compulsory is a relegation of status from which there is no coming back. Doing so may lighten the load for some but it would rid this country of something great. Those fighting for a Scotts Gaelic revival would love for it to have such a prominent place in the education system, it's genuinely one of the key sectors to it's future. It needs reform not abandonment. Ná maraigí mo theanga le bhur dtoil!

fionnsci

Violafy wrote: »

I really can't see why rabid Irish fans are trying to force the language on those who'd simply rather learn another subject which is more relevant to them. (I'm not calling the OP rabid, but some other Irish enthusiasts certainly are). If Irish is made optional... Irish lovers can still learn it and will probably learn more if everyone in the class actually wants to be there. Those who don't have an interest don't need to. It's not that hard to understand. How are people who want to learn Irish possibly missing out?

Your point is well made but I think I may speak for all of the so-called "Irish lovers" when I say that it's not about just learning the language. It's about being in an environment that is best for the language as a whole and that, certainly at the moment, is for veryone to be studying it. It creates Gaeltacht jobs, teaching jobs, publishing jobs all to the benefit of the language.

Anyone I know who found a love for the language found it in the Gaeltacht, something they never would've realistically done if Irish was compulsory because most mightn't have done it.

So we "who want to learn Irish" are missing out because what we hold dear (or in varying degrees of regard!) is being denuded by a lack of will in others. Savvy?

what.to.do

Sunny!! wrote: »

take off all the stupid stories, poetry and make it like german,french and there would be a guaranteed improvement!

This exactly.
I'm a lover of language, but Irish goes over my head. Somewhere in my 14 years of Irish, the basics were neglected, I never was taught basic sentence structure, applied grammar and such.

I learned x, y and z off by heart, and I haven't a clue what I'm writing half of the time.
If we were taught Irish as a language, I mean to speak, write and comprehend, many more of us would probably keep it on in University. Its the literary side of things that has fuelled my dislike for the subject (beautiful language, but the damn subject...). I intend on studying German in college, and when I start the lit. there, I might hate that too. But I have enough basic understanding of the language to TRY to love the rest of it.

fionnsci

What would people think of a split in the language? Effectively have papers one and two as different exams, with the paper one aspect being mandatory. It'd be a nice compromise.
The problem with it is that people will say that it gives too much of an advantage to those with good Irish. And they'd certainly have a point!

Fad

fionnsci wrote: »

What would people think of a split in the language? Effectively have papers one and two as different exams, with the paper one aspect being mandatory. It'd be a nice compromise.
The problem with it is that people will say that it gives too much of an advantage to those with good Irish. And they'd certainly have a point!

Some people are exceptionally good at English, and some at Maths, some at Art...

There will never be a totally fair system tbh.

randylonghorn

fionnsci wrote: »

What would people think of a split in the language? Effectively have papers one and two as different exams, with the paper one aspect being mandatory. It'd be a nice compromise.
The problem with it is that people will say that it gives too much of an advantage to those with good Irish. And they'd certainly have a point!

Actually for years I've advocated a split between an "Irish language" subject exam (written, oral, aural) which would be mandatory for most purposes, and an elective "Irish Literature" (or I suppose more accurately "literature in Irish", as much Irish Literature is not actually in the Irish language) subject which would be available for those who love the language and are good at it.

There are "English Language" and "English Literature" A-levels available in England (where students normally take far fewer subjects).

Whiskey757

I hate the way people think they're being so patriotic by saying we should be forced to learn it. They seem to miss the obvious absurdity that we're having to be taught it in the first place.