The Libyan uprising

recedite

metrovelvet wrote: »

Sorry....I keep forgetting...

Just insert USA into your boards user CP under location

metrovelvet wrote: »

Any predictions in what G is going to do to retaliate?

He has to survive first! It took him a couple of years to organise lockerbie after his house was bombed the last time.

BTW talk of coalition ground troops is nonsense, they may be invited in afterwards as UN peacekeepers as happened in Afghanistan, but even that is unlikely because Libya is a developed country with its own civil service.

Remember how the BBC's correspondent captured Kabul at the head of a ragtag army then known as the Northern Allliance? I'm betting on a Sky news reporter this time, for the "liberation" of Tripoli.

BTW if Colonel Daffy is the top man, how does the Libyan army command structure work if everyone else has to be a lower rank than Colonel?
No wonder they are so disorganised; no Generals

partyatmygaff

Cork24 wrote: »

Libya calls a stop to firing and yet NATO still runs ahead. With its bombing.

Gaddafi calls for a lot of things. Why would you expect the UN to entertain his requests if he won't cease firing indiscriminately against his own people?

And bombing his house when is bombing houses a no fly zone mission this has to stop if NATO soes not stop I fear north Africa and iran may join in backing libya

Your showing yourself up as having no real knowledge of the situation. Gaddafi is almost unanimously hated in the Arab world and all of North Africa. No one will rush to his aid.

metrovelvet

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Gaddafi calls for a lot of things. Why would you expect the UN to entertain his requests if he won't cease firing indiscriminately against his own people?



Your showing yourself up as having no real knowledge of the situation. Gaddafi is almost unanimously hated in the Arab world and all of North Africa. No one will rush to his aid.

Two questions about that.

1. But dont the Africans like him?

2. He is already using language like 'crusades' and the longer this goes on the less likely the allies will have global support and it would not be hard for him to drum up Muslim contempt for the western forces.

namloc1980

Athlone_Bhoy wrote: »

So even though Gaddafi hasn't flown any airplanes in the last few days (according to US military) there still attacking him to enforce a no fly zone.

The no-fly zone is only a part of the UN resolution. The other part is this:

UNSC Resolution 1973 wrote:

Authorizes Member States...to take all necessary measures...to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi...

This, essentially, gives the US, UK etc. the green light to continue to attack Libyan forces for the foreseeable future.

partyatmygaff

metrovelvet wrote: »

Two questions about that.

1. But dont the Africans like him?

Central, West and East Africa perhaps but they're rather unimportant in this whole scenario. They're not likely to come to his aid and they have neither power nor money. North Africa and the Arab world however either hate him or think he's a joke depending on who you talk to.

2. He is already using language like 'crusades' and the longer this goes on the less likely the allies will have global support and it would not be hard for him to drum up Muslim contempt for the western forces.

The Allies? This isn't WW3...

AlekSmart

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

No it doesnt, but the fact we see one reaction towards what is happening in Bahrain and elsewhere, and one reaction to what is happening in Libiyia should make us concerned about what is afoot. For instance the west made great play about Saddam's treatment of the Kurdish insurgency in Iraq while funding its NATO ally Turkey's much more brutal war against the Kurdish people. All this focus on Libiyia and the coming invasion does not bode well for the people of that country....Look at Iraq. And why oh why is their nothing on our television about the mass protests and riots happening there now?

I rather suspect,PatriciaMcKay,that the interim authorities in Iraq (Essentially the US Military) have a very clear vision concerning the "Image" of the new Iraq which the rest of the world get to see and hear.

What is concentrating my mind is the abundance of western media who have been "with" the various warring factions in this latest libyan situation.

Yes,we have seen evidence of bloody clashes and of civilian suffering,but as yet there remains a dearth of evidence to prove Gadaffai`s beastial status.

With the latest "news" from Syria concerning confrontation between "Protesting Factions" and Government forces,can we now expect the entire Middle Eastern region to require UN Policing in the near future...?

Overheal

AlekSmart wrote: »

Yes,we have seen evidence of bloody clashes and of civilian suffering,but as yet there remains a dearth of evidence to prove Gadaffai`s beastial status.

You should review his affadavit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi#Violence_and_political_activities_around_the_world

metrovelvet

Cork24 wrote: »

Libya calls a stop to firing and yet NATO still runs ahead. With its bombing. And bombing his house when is bombing houses a no fly zone mission this has to stop if NATO soes not stop I fear north Africa and iran may join in backing libya

So they want to kill him. Who did it?

So much for the no fly zone.

partyatmygaff

metrovelvet wrote: »

So they want to kill him. Who did it?

So much for the no fly zone.

They bombed an administrative building in a compound that contained one of his numerous houses.

Overheal

Is this under the NATO flag or the UN Flag?

Further nobody has claimed responsibility for the attack - it could have even been staged using explosives by Ghadaffi and his own forces to propagandize international support.

partyatmygaff

Overheal wrote: »

Further nobody has claimed responsibility for the attack - it could have even been staged using explosives by Ghadaffi and his own forces to propagandize international support.

That's very probable. Gaddafi is known for tactics like that.

johngalway

Come now peoples, Gadaffi declared a ceasefire as his tanks and troops were fighting their way into Benghazi suburbs.

Why would any of you believe a word he has to say after that?

Overheal

true enough.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/missile-strikes-building-in-libyan-compound-where-gaddafi-lives/2011/03/20/ABpLi23_story.html

Government officials took reporters to see the collapsed building here, littered with concrete and missile parts, shortly after a loud explosion was heard from the area. A plume of smoke was seen rising from the Bab al-Aziziya compound, a walled, fortified enclave on the southwestern edge of Tripoli where the Libyan leader lives.

...

Libyan state media reported that 48 people had been killed and many injured in allied strikes overnight Saturday, among them people who died when civilian buildings were hit.

But the government would not allow journalists to visit hospitals or any of the other sites that were hit, making it difficult to verify the claims.

Instead, journalists were bused to a cemetery on the seafront where the funerals of 26 people allegedly killed in the strikes were underway.

One freshly dug grave belonged to Siham Tabib, a 3-month-old baby whose father, Ferjaj Mohammed Tabib, said she had been hit by shrapnel. But he and other family members gave conflicting accounts of the circumstances of her death and the number of family members who were injured.

The anger among the Gaddafi supporters was real, but the mood elsewhere in the city was more subdued, with residents appearing more stunned than enraged at the attacks. Shops were closed, and traffic was light.

Amid the angry chanting, one man sidled up to journalists to offer a dissenting opinion. “This is all lies,” he said. “No civilians were killed. They were all military.”

Looking around to ensure he wasn’t being overheard, he made a prediction. “Wait a week, and you will see,” he said. “The people will rise up.”


I find it odd that they cant see the hospitals and interview the victims but they are rushed to the scene of this alleged missile strike and these funerals.

Something to me does not add up there, or am I mistaken? You can go to the funerals but not the hospitals? I wonder what reasons they were given for that. And still no word from any Coalition force about who may have targeted the compound.

If it is propaganda - and theres a good chance - it's getting to the Arab league:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/arab-support-wavers-as-second-night-of-bombing-begins-2247752.html

Dr. Greenthumb

Macha wrote: »

He has been condemned because of his actions, not because of "concerns". Your method of debate seems to be trying to pick holes in the organisations I quote but that doesn't take away from the facts. What the Arab League has to say about Bahrain doesn't make the human rights abuses in Libya cease to exist.


The Yemeni protesters have not asked for outside intervention and there is no open intent from the leader that he is willing to massacre his people. Now I'm confused - are you opposed to UN intervention in Libya only because the UN hasn't also gone into Yemen and Bahrain?

But you haven't given links to any facts. The human rights atrocities in Iraq were well documented for years with evidence and reports of the abuse on civilians such as the chemical bombings etc. The facts used against Libya are second hand information from rebel allies on the ground. Is it possible that these are exploiting the media for their own gain?

Actions speak louder than words don't you agree and in Yemen as well as Syria and Bahrain government forces have openly engaged the unarmed protesters. Is that not a sign that the respective leaders are willing to do anything to retain power. What state would those countries descend into should the protesters arm themselves.

Wars or bombing raids should be based on concrete evidence and considering the amount of missiles being deployed it would be hard to see how there wouldn't be huge civilian casualties cause by NATO / UN.

Predator_

johngalway wrote: »

Come now peoples, Gadaffi declared a ceasefire as his tanks and troops were fighting their way into Benghazi suburbs.

Why would any of you believe a word he has to say after that?

How do you know the west isn't lying about that? Its not like they dont lie 24/7

Denerick

This thread alone is good evidence for why the west likes to sit on its hand while some poor people in some foreign country get butchered in front of our eyes.

I was a relatively young person when I saw the pictures of what was happening in Rwanda. I didn't think it was possible for such evil to exist, and I struggled to comprehend how something so terrible could actually happen. Even in my worst nightmares I couldn't imagine it.

But no, you lot argue over what shade of green Libya's flag is :rolleyes: And while your at it call the west imperialists blah blah blah.

Jonny7

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

But you haven't given links to any facts. The human rights atrocities in Iraq were well documented for years with evidence and reports of the abuse on civilians such as the chemical bombings etc. The facts used against Libya are second hand information from rebel allies on the ground. Is it possible that these are exploiting the media for their own gain?

Once again, if people don't respect that situations are different depending on the country, the people, the tribe system, the history, then they'll have difficulties understanding.

Without writing a 6 page thesis on the differences between the situations in Libya, Egypt, Bahrain and Congo, I'll just respond to the above.

I've been getting live news mainly from Al Jazeera (very professional English coverage), BBC live update, al arabiya (english), Fox news for the right wing view, a bit of Sky News, then half a dozen other sites, online newspapers - its mainly live or updated

I have seen so much footage already - however there isn't much in the way of smoking guns, even Egypt, which is a totally different country and situation and much freer - it was hard to find smoking gun footage of Mubarak thugs doing their door-to-door thing in the neighbourhoods.

Agree this is needed to convince the cynics, they need reporters in Misrata right now

However in Libya, there has been a lot of corralling and kidnapping of journalists. For instance no one caught on camera the hours of heavy gunfire at several times in parts of Tripoli, all we have are reports from doctors, witnesses and often just shakey mobile phone footage, where its hard to tell anything.

To get a true picture of what is happening you need to do a lot of reading, multiple reports from witnesses, doctors, reporters, etc all corroborate each other

On the other issue of rebels being armed - the rebels even have a hind gunship, and tanks - this is because entire areas (in the far east and west) immediately defected from Gaddafi, including entire towns, army units - access to arms dumps etc

opinion guy

Overheal wrote: »

I find it odd that they cant see the hospitals and interview the victims but they are rushed to the scene of this alleged missile strike and these funerals.

Something to me does not add up there, or am I mistaken? You can go to the funerals but not the hospitals? I wonder what reasons they were given for that. And still no word from any Coalition force about who may have targeted the compound.

If it is propaganda - and theres a good chance - it's getting to the Arab league:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/arab-support-wavers-as-second-night-of-bombing-begins-2247752.html

You know whats intersting. On the first day of bombing sky/bbc were showing footage from inside libyian hospitals of supposed civilians wounded in the hosptial. One guy was intubated and unconscious alarms were beeping and a doctor was ventilating him with a bag mask. Thing is - he was doing it wrong. Well he was using the right technique, but he was ventilating him far too fast. What I'm saying is it didn't look right. I think it was fake. But I can't find the video now to have another look - does anyone have that link ?

OS119

opinion guy wrote: »

You know whats intersting. On the first day of bombing sky/bbc were showing footage from inside libyian hospitals of supposed civilians wounded in the hosptial. One guy was intubated and unconscious alarms were beeping and a doctor was ventilating him with a bag mask. Thing is - he was doing it wrong. Well he was using the right technique, but he was ventilating him far too fast. What I'm saying is it didn't look right. I think it was fake. But I can't find the video now to have another look - does anyone have that link ?

certainly i saw one bloke who was wearing an oxygen mask on his cheek and ranting like a man possessed - all arms waving and yelling the odds. i try not to be omnipient, but he didn't look like a man who's been hit be a 1,000lb bomb to me.

the BBC in Tripoli have mentioned a number of times that all of the casualities they have been given access to or have seen of Libyan TV - real or made-up - are male. perhaps there's a new version of high explosive that causes no harm to eastrogen bearing organisms...

levity aside, i fully understand what a 2,000lb bomb does to anything with 800m, particularly in an urban area when anything near that bomb gets turned into supersonic razor blades - and i'm fully aware that when you explode a large quantity of high explosives there will always be people around that aren't on your sh1tlist, and indeed people you'd very much rather not harm.

the RAF aborted a strike mission last night for that very reason.

opinion guy

Yemeni general switches sides:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12804552

Macha

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

But you haven't given links to any facts. The human rights atrocities in Iraq were well documented for years with evidence and reports of the abuse on civilians such as the chemical bombings etc. The facts used against Libya are second hand information from rebel allies on the ground. Is it possible that these are exploiting the media for their own gain?

Actions speak louder than words don't you agree and in Yemen as well as Syria and Bahrain government forces have openly engaged the unarmed protesters. Is that not a sign that the respective leaders are willing to do anything to retain power. What state would those countries descend into should the protesters arm themselves.

Wars or bombing raids should be based on concrete evidence and considering the amount of missiles being deployed it would be hard to see how there wouldn't be huge civilian casualties cause by NATO / UN.

I think it's time for you to state what sort of evidence you're looking for. Every time I post a fact or reference you claim I haven't provided any "evidence". The expulsion of Libya from the UN's Human Rights Council, condemnations by HRW and the Arab League - none of these seem to be enough and at this stage it's a game of changing the goal posts.

So tell me what exact evidence you're willing to accept before I spend any more time debating this.

Dr. Greenthumb

Macha wrote: »

I think it's time for you to state what sort of evidence you're looking for. Every time I post a fact or reference you claim I haven't provided any "evidence". The expulsion of Libya from the UN's Human Rights Council, condemnations by HRW and the Arab League - none of these seem to be enough and at this stage it's a game of changing the goal posts.

So tell me what exact evidence you're willing to accept before I spend any more time debating this.

I'm not changing any goal posts, there is still no footage of any atrocities. That's the point I made at the start and it is still the point I am making.

Well I wouldn't consider HRW reliable, the UN need to back up bombing raids they have sanctioned and the Arab League well that's sh*te because they're the same people in charge of the Bahrain fiasco.

In Iraq there was photo evidence etc, in previous conflicts there has been footage from spy planes and other means due to western technologies yet here there is nothing of the sort. I'm not saying it isn't happening but I'm not going to believe it because some says I should.

As I said before there is reportedly in excess of 100 western journalists in Libya now yet none have any footage to date of people shot down in the streets, area destroyed by government bombardment. If the country is so anti Gadaffi why hasn't this footage been captured. Iraq was far more dangerous than Libya at the moment yet we got regular footage. Once Gaddafi is overthrown the pictures will start to appear but how do you distinguish then between what was caused by government / Nato bombs?

500 people killed in Yemen last Friday, the government is sacked yesterday and still no issue of the UN intervening. Supposedly there is light at the end of the tunnel for the Yemeni but because of maybe the lack of importance Yemen has to the west and the fact that it is an Al Qaeda stronghold the west kept out of it.

Jonny7

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

500 people killed in Yemen last Friday, the government is sacked yesterday and still no issue of the UN intervening. Supposedly there is light at the end of the tunnel for the Yemeni but because of maybe the lack of importance Yemen has to the west and the fact that it is an Al Qaeda stronghold the west kept out of it.

Is there footage of that? if so please provide link

(couldn't resist)

Macha

Video footage? That's your gauge? When you have Ghadaffi forces allegedly pulling civilian victims of Ghadaffi's vilence out of morgues and dressing them up as victims of allied forces? When you have Ghadaffi showing old footage of his former Minister of Defence sitting beside him as evidence that he has returned to Ghadaffi's side when in fact he was sitting in Benghazi all the time?

It's a nice idea to think that if you see something with your own eyes, no one can deceive you but it doesn't really hold true.

Dr. Greenthumb

Jonny7 wrote: »

Once again, if people don't respect that situations are different depending on the country, the people, the tribe system, the history, then they'll have difficulties understanding.

Without writing a 6 page thesis on the differences between the situations in Libya, Egypt, Bahrain and Congo, I'll just respond to the above.

I've been getting live news mainly from Al Jazeera (very professional English coverage), BBC live update, al arabiya (english), Fox news for the right wing view, a bit of Sky News, then half a dozen other sites, online newspapers - its mainly live or updated

I have seen so much footage already - however there isn't much in the way of smoking guns, even Egypt, which is a totally different country and situation and much freer - it was hard to find smoking gun footage of Mubarak thugs doing their door-to-door thing in the neighbourhoods.

Agree this is needed to convince the cynics, they need reporters in Misrata right now

However in Libya, there has been a lot of corralling and kidnapping of journalists. For instance no one caught on camera the hours of heavy gunfire at several times in parts of Tripoli, all we have are reports from doctors, witnesses and often just shakey mobile phone footage, where its hard to tell anything.

To get a true picture of what is happening you need to do a lot of reading, multiple reports from witnesses, doctors, reporters, etc all corroborate each other

On the other issue of rebels being armed - the rebels even have a hind gunship, and tanks - this is because entire areas (in the far east and west) immediately defected from Gaddafi, including entire towns, army units - access to arms dumps etc

Libya is one of the most fractured Arab states, once Gaddafi is overthrown there will be considerable instability. Add to that the distribution of wealth will be a major factor and no one tribe will trust the other when it come to dividing it up or taking charge of that.

There was footage in Egypt though, CNN had reporters and camera crews inside the square. Also Egypt was based primarily on peaceful protesters unlike Libya.

Also you have to accept that should the rebels use planes and tanks that they are playing into the governments hands and are asking for retaliation.

Dr. Greenthumb

Macha wrote: »

Video footage? That's your gauge? When you have Ghadaffi forces allegedly pulling civilian victims of Ghadaffi's vilence out of morgues and dressing them up as victims of allied forces? When you have Ghadaffi showing old footage of his former Minister of Defence sitting beside him as evidence that he has returned to Ghadaffi's side when in fact he was sitting in Benghazi all the time?

It's a nice idea to think that if you see something with your own eyes, no one can deceive you but it doesn't really hold true.

Glad you used allegedly there

You question the validity of video footage but are willing to believe all you are hearing.

I don't put any weight in Gadaffi's news as you can be sure it is biased and never once did say I did but there is no incriminating footage on western TV either.

Jonny7

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

Libya is one of the most fractured Arab states, once Gaddafi is overthrown there will be considerable instability. Add to that the distribution of wealth will be a major factor and no one tribe will trust the other when it come to dividing it up or taking charge of that.

There was footage in Egypt though, CNN had reporters and camera crews inside the square. Also Egypt was based primarily on peaceful protesters unlike Libya.

Also you have to accept that should the rebels use planes and tanks that they are playing into the governments hands and are asking for retaliation.

The same has been said for Egypt and Tunisia, in fact anywhere is unstable, the question is _how_ unstable. Measures for that appear to vary wildly. But I agree Libya is by rough definition more unstable than Egypt.

I watched perhaps 2 hours footage a day, actually more, on Egypt (I'm a bit of a news junkie) - most footage centered around the Square - however the reports of pro - Mubarak activities in the neighbourhoods were very rarely caught on camera, and there was _very_ little footage from anywhere but Cairo, Alexandra especially, despite the large number of foreign camera teams, etc.

The rebels using tanks and planes and anything salvaged from the army is 100% understandable from their side - but it doesn't 'play' well for the international backing needed for this kinda of intervention.

As said before, an unfortunate circumstance is the need for real footage.

[Jackass]

Does anyone else find it extremely unsettling that the security council and the U.N. (aka world police) have just taken it on themselves to bombard this country and completely intrude on domestic and political affairs?

YES, I understand there is / was civil war and he had his unfair advantage with air strikes and there was bloodshed and uprising, but I find it appauling that the international community can be the bigger bully and come in and decide to even up the fight by destabalising all millitary capabilities of the Government and even an attempted murder on Gaddafi by bombing his compound...

This is outrageous...I'm not sure how people don't really give a sh*t about this or if we don't realise that we have an elite few who pretty much dictate the entire world affairs. Quite literraly, humanity is under a dictatorship if we're going to be pedantic about motives...

I find this all outrageous...

And, interestingly, is it a coincidence that when any major oil producing nation shows any sort of political instability, this world police are in there like a shot...if nothing else it drives the price of oil through the roof, and is a commodoty under major control of the likes of the United States and essentially rockets the value of their stocks held in oil...

I don't know..sometimes I feel like the U.S.A and the Security Council need a nuke waved in their face.

Makes me hope North Korea & Iran get their act together and break up this alliance of the valliant.

Dr. Greenthumb

Jonny7 wrote: »

Is there footage of that? if so please provide link

(couldn't resist)

lol touché

http://www.casttv.com/video/2ghzjjl/yemen-massacre-change-square-18-march-uncut-video

it's more than I've seen from Libya

metrovelvet

Well the claim is that the rebels asked for assistance, that request being the main difference.

Although, it is still questionable if it is wise getting involved in the civil war yourself. I dont think its in the US best interest to involve themselves in this. Libya and north Africa are in Europes back yard, and they have a different history, one I dont know too much about so I refrain from judgement on it.