The Libyan uprising

opinion guy

BluePlanet wrote: »

I'd rather the UN General Assembly get together (along with the SC) and push the Arab League to the front on this one.

Never going to happen. The Arab league are fara far too worried about the stuff going on in their own countries to be thining of doing anything in Libya. In mean the obvious power in the region is Egypt.......eh not a snowballs chance in hell they will do anything given their own turmoil......and we should be glad that they don't too because it would only make things worse.

nacho libre wrote: »

According to the Daily Telegraph, british special forces have been operating in Libya since Thursday

Yeah that would not surprise me in the least

OS119

nacho libre wrote: »

According to the Daily Telegraph, british special forces have been operating in Libya since Thursday

i wouldn't put much faith in the DT's defence reporting - seriously not a good source on this issue. i'm not saying the UK SF haven't been in Libya since thursday, but i am saying that the DT wouldn't have known (and as importantly, understood) what UK SF were doing. some sources are good, some bad - the DT are very much in the 'pulling stuff out of their arse' camp of defence reporting.

SF are easy meat for journo's - they do what they do away from the public eye, the government always refuse to confirm or deny their involvement, so hacks can print what they like and know that they won't be proven wrong.

BlaasForRafa

opinion guy wrote: »

Never going to happen. The Arab league are fara far too worried about the stuff going on in their own countries to be thining of doing anything in Libya. In mean the obvious power in the region is Egypt.......eh not a snowballs chance in hell they will do anything given their own turmoil......and we should be glad that they don't too because it would only make things worse./QUOTE]

Indeed, the likes of Saudi Arabia and Syria aren't going to do anything about this considering that they are dictatorships as well.

A few laser-guided bombs from an F/A-18 onto Gaddafi's compound wouldn't go amiss right about now.

nacho libre

OS119 wrote: »

i wouldn't put much faith in the DT's defence reporting - seriously not a good source on this issue. i'm not saying the UK SF haven't been in Libya since thursday, but i am saying that the DT wouldn't have known (and as importantly, understood) what UK SF were doing. some sources are good, some bad - the DT are very much in the 'pulling stuff out of their arse' camp of defence reporting.

SF are easy meat for journo's - they do what they do away from the public eye, the government always refuse to confirm or deny their involvement, so hacks can print what they like and know that they won't be proven wrong.

It's surprising you say that because the Telegraph has always struck me as a paper that's close to the spooks and the british army. they are usually the first with details on british special forces operations that have been conducted in Afghanistan and Iraq. Also senior British army personnel often write articles in the Sunday Telegraph. Also didn't Lawson resign as editor of the Sunday Telegraph soon after he was accused of being an MI5 spy? Perhaps the timing of his departure was just a coincidence.

Nodin

Much of the country, especially the east, is now controlled by anti-Gaddafi forces, including military units who have switched sides. However, the Libyan leader still holds the most of Tripoli, which is home to two million of the country's 6.5 million population.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12587078

It would appear nothing much has changed in the last 48 hours, save the climbing number of dead.....

OS119

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

A few laser-guided bombs from an F/A-18 onto Gaddafi's compound wouldn't go amiss right about now.

i think the likelyhood of him being there are pretty slim - i don't have an issue with the sentiment, mearly the utility.

an RAF E-3D AWACS aircraft 'somewhere over the Med' tracked a Libyan government corporate jet that took off from the Tripoli area and is now over south-east europe on a track for Belorussia.... a well known phrase or saying involving the words 'sinking' 'rats' 'deserting' and 'ship'...

apoligies to Opinion Guy.

E-3D thing - its on twitter, normally you might raise your eyebrows at the source, but this particular 'twit' is solid gold.

goose2002

OS119 wrote: »

i think the likelyhood of him being there are pretty slim - i don't have an issue with the sentiment, mearly the utility.

an RAF E-3D AWACS aircraft 'somewhere over the Med' tracked a Libyan government corporate jet that took off from the Tripoli area and is now over south-east europe on a track for Belorussia.... a well known phrase or saying involving the words 'sinking' 'rats' 'deserting' and 'ship'...

Link on the Awacs story???
Not doubting you, just interested in where you heard that from?

opinion guy

OS119 - fix the quotes in your last post would you please - I did not say whats attributed to me!

Edit: Thanks

goose2002

opinion guy wrote: »

OS119 - fix the quotes in your last post would you please - I did not say whats attributed to me!

It seems to be a bit of a fault with boards when you hit the quote button. Same thing happened to me when I tried to reply and I had to manually edit it. Not OS119's fault.

BluePlanet

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

A few laser-guided bombs from an F/A-18 onto Gaddafi's compound wouldn't go amiss right about now.

yeah, nothing like a little foreign intervention from a meglo-maniac super-bully to galvanise nationalist sentiment around their leader.

Idiotic comment.

mike65

I think the Libyans are well past that sort of nationalist sentiment, the last I heard they were looking for foreign intervention.

grizzly

There were fears that Gaddafi would destroy the oil pipes, perhaps America should get in there and protect them.

OS119

grizzly wrote: »

There were fears that Gaddafi would destroy the oil pipes, perhaps America should get in there and protect them.

events would appear to indicate that he doesn't control enough territory to systematicly destroy the oil/gas infrastructure. he can bash a bit here and a bit there, but not seriously compromise the whole lot.

my own veiw is the any intervention that isn't a) small scale and discrete, and b) obviously focused on getting out ex-pats is likely to confuse the situation further, possibly forcing those elements of the armed forces that are anti-Ghaddafi to spend time worrying about what the US/NATO/EU is doing and not just cracking on with fighting whats left of his regime.

some things the US/NATO/EU can do - and probably are doing - will have the effect of helping the opposition to defeat Ghaddafi quicker than they might otherwise have been able to do, but any kind of large scale intervention is unlikely to be one of them.

BlaasForRafa

BluePlanet wrote: »

yeah, nothing like a little foreign intervention from a meglo-maniac super-bully to galvanise nationalist sentiment around their leader.

Idiotic comment.

Yes, your comment is idiotic, thanks for confirming it though.

grizzly

False alarm, turns out it was all a joke.

opinion guy

So the Brits did go inland!!!
Breaking news:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12588947

BBC wrote:

Two RAF Hercules have rescued about 150 workers from the Libyan desert, Defence Secretary Liam Fox has said.
The planes, carrying Britons and other foreign nationals, have reached Malta.

Overheal

grizzly wrote: »

There were fears that Gaddafi would destroy the oil pipes, perhaps America should get in there and protect them.

Why not the Irish? I hear you're quite dependent upon them actually.

The United States is not tasked with preventing countries from sabotaging their own infrastructure.

opinion guy

More British planes reported to be coming out of Libya today according to BBC.
Gotta say - ballsy moves by the Brits.

ei.sdraob

I wonder what Gerry Adams here has to say about his old chum Gadaffi

Nodin

Groups of revolutionaries are starting to move towards western Libya in an attempt to link up with opposition militias near Tripoli, setting the stage for a final assault on the capital – perhaps within weeks.
The groups are heavily armed with military weapons, which have been looted from every army base and police headquarters east of the central oil town of Ras Lusafa. They have fought skirmishes with pro-regime forces near the Gaddafi family stronghold of Sirte, but have so far avoided intensive clashes.
Organisers in Benghazi said the groups were mostly youths and former security forces who defected during the battles that led to the fall of the city.
Ramadan Faitoura, a member of the newly formed interim government in Libya's second city, said the groups were not part of an official push westward, although they have the support of the nascent leadership.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/27/libyan-militias-prepare-assault-tripoli

Given the fact he has nowhere to go, it may end up in a war, or at least a bloody battle. Of course him being a headcase, its hard to imagine any amount of bribery or arm twisting succeding in convincing any nation to let him in.

partyatmygaff

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/27/libyan-militias-prepare-assault-tripoli

Given the fact he has nowhere to go, it may end up in a war, or at least a bloody battle. Of course him being a headcase, its hard to imagine any amount of bribery or arm twisting succeding in convincing any nation to let him in.

Gaddafi has nowhere to go. He's disliked by most of the Arab world and he has no place of refuge should he decide to flee. If they decide to attack Tripoli he will - as he said - fight to the end. If he surrenders he could face prosecution for war crimes.

caseyann

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I wonder what Gerry Adams here has to say about his old chum Gadaffi

I already posted it,For your information.Sinn Fein has called on embattled Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi to step down and allow an election to take place

The statement formally ends a long-standing alliance between the Libyan ruler and the republican movement, which he armed and funded in the 1970s/80s.

A Sinn Fein spokesman declared: “We are opposed to these absolutist regimes.

“His support of the republican cause in the past is irrelevant.

“What you have now is people being shot down in their own streets just as the British shot Irish protesters on the streets of their home towns, for instance on Bloody Sunday.”


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/sinn-fein-in-gaddafi-uturn-despot-who-backed-ira-denounced-by-republicans-15093326.html

Irish government havent said much of anything perhaps they dont want to lose their trade.lol or Gaddafi come to Ireland with his cash lol

nacho libre

Apparently Tony Blair was on the Phone twice to his old mate, but the colonel ignored him.


http://slinkingtowardretirement.com/?p=27936

ISAW

Overheal wrote: »

The United States is not tasked with preventing countries from sabotaging their own infrastructure.

LOL in Iraq they went straight to the well to stop fires and took over the Ministry of Oil in Baghdad when across the street the looters were plundering one of the worlds greatest Museums.

caseyann wrote: »

Irish government havent said much of anything perhaps they dont want to lose their trade.lol or Gaddafi come to Ireland with his cash lol

UN Human Rights Council: Special Session on Libya, Geneva, 25 February 2011, Address by the Permanent Representative of Ireland, Mr. Gerard Corr

28/02/2011

UN Human Rights Council: Special Session on Libya

Geneva, 25 February 2011

Address by the Permanent Representative of Ireland, Mr. Gerard Corr



Ireland strongly welcomes the holding of this Special Session on Libya and hopes to see a clear and unequivocal resolution as its outcome. This Council has been very active in condemning other uses of excessive force against civilians and there is a clear need for it to do so today in the case of Libya.



The people of Ireland support the people in Libya at this difficult juncture in their history and condemn unreservedly the use of violence against innocent civilians. Like other speakers, we have been horrified by widespread and persistent reports that live ammunition, snipers and heavy weaponry including fighter jets are being used on the order of Libya’s leaders against their own people. There are also credible reports of extrajudicial killings, arbitrary arrests and torture of peaceful demonstrators. This appalling brutality is completely unacceptable and amounts to a clear violation of the Government of Libya’s responsibility to protect its population.



My Government, along with EU partners, fully supports Tuesday’s UN Security Council statement which calls upon the Libyan authorities to immediately stop this bloody repression, to honour its responsibility to protect the civilian population, and to respect human rights and international humanitarian law. We also endorse the clear statement issued on 23 February by High Representative Ashton on behalf of the EU.



Ireland also fully endorses the call for an independent international investigation into the human rights violations in Libya. Those ordering these attacks, and those carrying them out, should be aware that they will be held to account. The refusal of many Libyan security forces personnel to carry out attacks against civilians is commendable. We welcome the African Union statement on Libya and urge any countries whose nationals may be participating in operations against Libyan civilians to take measures to prevent this.



The popular dissent in Libya can only be met with inclusive and meaningful national dialogue aimed at meeting the legitimate aspirations of the Libyan people. In neighbouring Egypt national dialogue has now commenced, and an irreversible transition to democracy has begun. Libya’s leaders have so far chosen a different path, but it is clearly evident that violence simply brings further violence. The repressive approach of the Libyan authorities has enraged the Libyan people. Their grievances and legitimate wish to have a greater say in their destiny will not go away. We applaud the courage of the Libyan people and offer the sympathies of the Irish people to the bereaved and the injured.



The Libyan government has an obligation to protect not only their own citizens but those of other nationalities. Libya must allow international human rights monitors and humanitarian aid agencies into the country so that the wounded and those fleeing violence can be helped. Foreign nationals wishing to leave Libya must be assisted. I further call upon Libya, as the Security Council has demanded, to immediately stop blocking the internet and mobile phone networks, and to lift all restrictions on the media. Such efforts will not stop the international community finding out about what is happening in Libya, and are hampering citizens in Libya who are trying to contact their families and flee from this violence.



Ireland is currently considering with its EU partners what effective and urgent measures can be taken in relation to Libya. This Special Session is one of many signals that the international community is united, fully engaged and ready to take appropriate action. The Libyan people do not stand alone.

Note :

The UN Human Rights Council in Geneva held a Special Session at the request of the EU and others (including Ireland) to discuss the critical human rights situation in Libya. Ireland, although not a current member of the HRC, addressed the meeting to express the Government's grave concerns on this issue.


The HRC this evening adopted a Resolution which, inter alia, condemned the attacks on civilians in Libya, urged the Libyan authorities to respect the will of the people, allow the passage of humanitarian aid and the exit of foreign citizens, and recommended that the UN General Assembly consider suspending Libya from the HRC.

Nodin

A good article from the Guardian on life in Libya as seen by a Foriegn correspondent. Reminds me of the mixture of the bleakly funny and horrific that used come from Amins Uganda....

Kate Adie wrote:

I feel obliged to dip into books which have been given to me as a present. "In need freedom is latent . . ." Late at night in Tripoli in 1984 I found Colonel Gaddafi's Green Book hard going. He'd signed the book that morning, in revolutionary green ink of course, a curious V-shape, as if an inky fly had slid down the page and staggered back up. He'd also given me a Qur'an and wished me Happy Christmas.
Nothing was ever straightforward dealing with Gaddafi.

There was little to do in revolutionary Libya in the evenings. Television was dreary, full of the Leader's speeches and only occasionally enlivened by pirated foreign programmes, including the nation's favourite: Monty Python's Flying Circus. Libyans watched it, not laughing but nodding. They said: "That's our country they're showing." It was an oil-rich country with broken pavements and an atmosphere that discouraged taking a walk in the dark. No obvious threat, no armed men prowling the street, just hotel employees and anonymous regime officials twitching with an unexpressed fear that "things might happen . . ." So I read on: "No democracy without popular congresses, and committees everywhere."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/02/gaddafi-i-knew-kate-adie

Jonny7

Wow 2 hour speech, very rambling - beyond belief

here are some gems

Col Gaddafi said there had been a multi-billion dollar development plan earmarked for Benghazi, but it was now on hold because of the revolt. The scheme would have made the other cities really jealous, he said, and left them asking, 'why Benghazi?".

Col Gaddafi says his salary is just 465 Libyan dinars (£232; £378), and jabs two fingers forward, threatening to poke them in British PM David Cameron's eyes, over allegations the Libyan leader has hoarded assets abroad.

All foreign media are in on a conspiracy and that Al Qaeda are to blame for all woes (hmm eerily reminisent of fox news viewers!)

aaand so on and so forth

If you can control/cut off/keep your population too poor for internet/external media - then your fear appartus can keep a whole nation under your crazy control for 40 years or more, Mugabe and Kim Il approve

OS119

ISAW wrote: »

UN Human Rights Council: Special Session on Libya

Geneva, 25 February 2011

Address by the Permanent Representative of Ireland, Mr. Gerard Corr....

so Ireland is promising the Libyan opposition all the support in the world - short of actual help of course.

when Ireland is 'looking, along with its EU partners for ways to further contribute' will it be offering its own assets, or will it just be looking for ways that other people can contribute?

opinion guy

Jonny7 wrote: »

Wow 2 hour speech, very rambling - beyond belief

here are some gems

Col Gaddafi said there had been a multi-billion dollar development plan earmarked for Benghazi, but it was now on hold because of the revolt. The scheme would have made the other cities really jealous, he said, and left them asking, 'why Benghazi?".

Col Gaddafi says his salary is just 465 Libyan dinars (£232; £378), and jabs two fingers forward, threatening to poke them in British PM David Cameron's eyes, over allegations the Libyan leader has hoarded assets abroad.

All foreign media are in on a conspiracy and that Al Qaeda are to blame for all woes (hmm eerily reminisent of fox news viewers!)

aaand so on and so forth

If you can control/cut off/keep your population too poor for internet/external media - then your fear appartus can keep a whole nation under your crazy control for 40 years or more, Mugabe and Kim Il approve

He really is quite insane. I mean actually medically insane should be in a hospital on potent antipsychotic meds insane.

OS119 wrote: »

ISAW wrote: »

so Ireland is promising the Libyan opposition all the support in the world - short of actual help of course.

when Ireland is 'looking, along with its EU partners for ways to further contribute' will it be offering its own assets, or will it just be looking for ways that other people can contribute?

What you think we should send in our 3 boats, 4 planes and 6 APC's then?
Drum up a few FCA recruits whilst were at it ?

Overheal

ISAW wrote: »

LOL in Iraq they went straight to the well to stop fires and took over the Ministry of Oil in Baghdad when across the street the looters were plundering one of the worlds greatest Museums.

Aren't you discussing a situation in which the US had already taken over the country? The US will serve it's interests like any other country. I find it very unlikely an invasion/occupation would be triggered because the Libyans decided to shoot themselves in the foot.

Furthermore preventing scorched earth has a little more importance than you let on, as in the case of the Gulf War:

Immediately following Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait, predictions were made of an environmental disaster stemming from Iraqi threats to blow up captured Kuwaiti’ oil wells. Speculation ranging from a nuclear winter types scenario, to heavy acid rain and even short term immediate global warming were presented at the World Climate Conference in Geneva that November.[7][8]
Nearly 700 oil wells were set ablaze by the retreating Iraqi army and the fires were not fully extinguished until November 6, 1991, eight months after the end of the war.[9] The fires consumed an estimated six million barrels of oil daily.
Their immediate consequence was a dramatic decrease in air quality, causing respiratory problems for many Kuwaitis. The sabotage of the oil wells also impacted the desert environment, which has a limited natural cleansing ability. Unignited oil from the wells formed about 300 oil lakes that contaminated around 40 million tons of sand and earth. The mixture of desert sand with the unignited oil and soot formed layers of "tarcrete" which covered nearly five percent of the country.[10]Kuwait Institute for Scientific Research and the Arab Oil Co., who have tested a number of technologies including the use of petroleum-degrading bacteria, produced significant results. According to a 1992 study from Peter Hobbs and Lawrence Radke daily emissions of sulfur dioxide were 57% of that from electric utilities in the United States, emissions of carbon dioxide were 2% of global emissions and emissions of soot were 3400 metric tons per day.[11] Cleaning efforts led by the
Scenarios that predicted serious environmental impact on a global level did not happen.[12] At the peak of the fires, the smoke absorbed 75 to 80% of the sun’s radiation. The particles were never observed to rise above 6 km and when combined with scavenging by clouds gave the smoke a short residency time in the atmosphere and localized its effects.[11]
Vegetation in most of the contaminated areas adjoining the oil lakes began recovering by 1995, but the dry climate has also partially solidified some of the lakes. Over time the oil has continued to sink into the sand, with as yet unknown consequences for Kuwait's precious groundwater resources.[6][13]


Looters, or environmental disaster. Hmmmmmmm

Jonny7

Overheal wrote: »

Aren't you discussing a situation in which the US had already taken over the country? The US will serve it's interests like any other country. I find it very unlikely an invasion/occupation would be triggered because the Libyans decided to shoot themselves in the foot.

Furthermore preventing scorched earth has a little more importance than you let on, as in the case of the Gulf War:

Immediately following Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait, predictions were made of an environmental disaster stemming from Iraqi threats to blow up captured Kuwaiti’ oil wells. Speculation ranging from a nuclear winter types scenario, to heavy acid rain and even short term immediate global warming were presented at the World Climate Conference in Geneva that November.[7][8]
Nearly 700 oil wells were set ablaze by the retreating Iraqi army and the fires were not fully extinguished until November 6, 1991, eight months after the end of the war.[9] The fires consumed an estimated six million barrels of oil daily.
Their immediate consequence was a dramatic decrease in air quality, causing respiratory problems for many Kuwaitis. The sabotage of the oil wells also impacted the desert environment, which has a limited natural cleansing ability. Unignited oil from the wells formed about 300 oil lakes that contaminated around 40 million tons of sand and earth. The mixture of desert sand with the unignited oil and soot formed layers of "tarcrete" which covered nearly five percent of the country.[10]Kuwait Institute for Scientific Research and the Arab Oil Co., who have tested a number of technologies including the use of petroleum-degrading bacteria, produced significant results. According to a 1992 study from Peter Hobbs and Lawrence Radke daily emissions of sulfur dioxide were 57% of that from electric utilities in the United States, emissions of carbon dioxide were 2% of global emissions and emissions of soot were 3400 metric tons per day.[11] Cleaning efforts led by the
Scenarios that predicted serious environmental impact on a global level did not happen.[12] At the peak of the fires, the smoke absorbed 75 to 80% of the sun’s radiation. The particles were never observed to rise above 6 km and when combined with scavenging by clouds gave the smoke a short residency time in the atmosphere and localized its effects.[11]
Vegetation in most of the contaminated areas adjoining the oil lakes began recovering by 1995, but the dry climate has also partially solidified some of the lakes. Over time the oil has continued to sink into the sand, with as yet unknown consequences for Kuwait's precious groundwater resources.[6][13]


Looters, or environmental disaster. Hmmmmmmm

Dude, in Iraq, they went straight to the oil ministries and secured them as soon as possible. I remember many reporters on the various channels I was watching at the time pointing this out, while water treatment plants, electrical stations.. basically everything else was left. Actually, lets call a spade a spade, they were firing ****ing uranium rounds, they weren't really worried about 'environmental impact' now were they