If No One Had Told You About Allah.... Would You Still Believe In Him?

DrumSteve

This is a question that I've had in my head for a long time. I mean, I'm not a believer in Christianity though I was brought up a Catholic. However if the Bible and passed down stories had never existed would people still believe in Jesus or in this case the Qu'ran and Allah/Mohhamed.

Would a God have been invented to replace him? And if so does this questions the very basis of Faith in general?

For instance if you woke up tomorrow and had a complete memory loss and all traces of him ever existing we're erased would you know that he existed and more importantly would you believe in him as a deity? And if not, does that question his very ability to be a God-like being? That he would exist no matter what?

Just want to point out the above is not meant to be antagonistic and I had posted the same in the Christianity forum however the Mod locked it immediately.

whydoc

This site may help you to understand our God:

http://www.godallah.com/

irishconvert

DrumSteve wrote: »

This is a question that I've had in my head for a long time. I mean, I'm not a believer in Christianity though I was brought up a Catholic. However if the Bible and passed down stories had never existed would people still believe in Jesus or in this case the Qu'ran and Allah/Mohhamed.

Would a God have been invented to replace him? And if so does this questions the very basis of Faith in general?

For instance if you woke up tomorrow and had a complete memory loss and all traces of him ever existing we're erased would you know that he existed and more importantly would you believe in him as a deity? And if not, does that question his very ability to be a God-like being? That he would exist no matter what?

Just want to point out the above is not meant to be antagonistic and I had posted the same in the Christianity forum however the Mod locked it immediately.

How could we know God/Allah/Jesus/Muhammed existed if we were not told about them? Your question doesn't make sense to me.

However if what you're asking is that would I believe there was a greater power if I'd never heard of God, then my answer is yes. I think I would suspect that there was some greater power that created the planet and all in it. It just feels natural to me. I just wouldn't know what/who that power was.

DrumSteve

irishconvert wrote: »

How could we know God/Allah/Jesus/Muhammed existed if we were not told about them? Your question doesn't make sense to me.

However if what you're asking is that would I believe there was a greater power if I'd never heard of God, then my answer is yes. I think I would suspect that there was some greater power that created the planet and all in it. It just feels natural to me. I just wouldn't know what/who that power was.

Thanks for the reply Irishconvert. I guess I found it hard to word the question in a way that wouldn't get me banned!

dead one

DrumSteve wrote: »

This is a question that I've had in my head for a long time. I mean, I'm not a believer in Christianity though I was brought up a Catholic. However if the Bible and passed down stories had never existed would people still believe in Jesus or in this case the Qu'ran and Allah/Mohhamed.

Would a God have been invented to replace him? And if so does this questions the very basis of Faith in general?

For instance if you woke up tomorrow and had a complete memory loss and all traces of him ever existing we're erased would you know that he existed and more importantly would you believe in him as a deity? And if not, does that question his very ability to be a God-like being? That he would exist no matter what?

Just want to point out the above is not meant to be antagonistic and I had posted the same in the Christianity forum however the Mod locked it immediately.

Good question my friend, Let me explain you. People have invented different gods but infact God is only one. The only true religion which was sent on the earth was Islam and it is from same God who is lord of Jesus (pbuh), Who is lord of Muhammad (Pbuh), who is lord of All the creature on earth. The Christianity is theology which is interpretation of People even you will nowhere find in the Bible that Jesus (PBUH) called himself as Christian, Christ was not even his original name, So Jesus christ was not his true name, Clearly it means they have changed even the name of their messenger how you can't say they have not invented new gods, Jesus (pbuh)was muslim and he preached Islam i.e Oneness of Allah. So islam is religion from true one God. If you believe in Allah it mean you are indirectly believing in oneness of Allah.

please have look

Both the Noble Quran and the Bible claim that GOD Almighty is an Absolute One and only One:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.

The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?

I have yet to see a good answer to this one by any polytheist trinitarian.

Also, another important point to notice in Mark 10:18 is the word "alone": ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and/or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that.

So All the Prophet preached the oneness of Allah but people changed it

biko

Isn't that was prophets are for? To tell you about the god?

Ghost Buster

dead one wrote: »

Good question my friend, Let me explain you. People have invented different gods but infact God is only one. The only true religion which was sent on the earth was Islam and it is from same God who is lord of Jesus (pbuh), Who is lord of Muhammad (Pbuh), who is lord of All the creature on earth. The Christianity is theology which is interpretation of People even you will nowhere find in the Bible that Jesus (PBUH) called himself as Christian, Christ was not even his original name, So Jesus christ was not his true name, Clearly it means they have changed even the name of their messenger how you can't say they have not invented new gods, Jesus (pbuh)was muslim and he preached Islam i.e Oneness of Allah. So islam is religion from true one God. If you believe in Allah it mean you are indirectly believing in oneness of Allah.

please have look

Both the Noble Quran and the Bible claim that GOD Almighty is an Absolute One and only One:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.

The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?

I have yet to see a good answer to this one by any polytheist trinitarian.

Also, another important point to notice in Mark 10:18 is the word "alone": ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and/or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that.

So All the Prophet preached the oneness of Allah but people changed it

Thats what they all say.. Yes?

dead one

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Thats what they all say.. Yes?

Sir, please don't bust my ghost, spare it, please have look

Jesus using the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40:
This article was give to me by brother Tamer, may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
Let us look at Luke 6:40 from my N.I.V. Bible "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher."

From me, Osama Abdallah:Evidence from the English translation of Luke 6:40 that further prove that the word 'Muslim' was used by Jesus:
Luke 6:40 (KJV)
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luke 6:40 (Darby)
40 The disciple is not above his teacher, but every one that is perfected shall be as his teacher.
Luke 6:40 (Young's Literal Translation)
40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one perfected shall be as his teacher.
Luke 6:40 (21st Century King James Version)
40 The disciple is not above his master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luke 6:40 (American Standard Version)
40 The disciple is not above his teacher: but every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher.
The perfection here means a spiritual one. What the verse is saying is that knowledge is not what matters! The teacher or master is higher in knowledge than his student. But the student can be as high as his teacher, or even higher, by being a true 'MUSHLAM' or Muslim, a spiritually perfect and well-disciplined person!

"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."
Taken from the Aramaic bible society. See also the PDF file at this link.

This is further proved by the Arabic translation:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206:40;&version=28;


The Arabic word "baseera", which is what is falsely translated for "MUSHLAM" by the deceiving polytheist trinitarian pagans from the Arabic translators, actually means "having spiritual knowledge or discipline"! Even in their twisted translation, the word clearly is used for spiritual discipline and not just technical knowledge of our worldly knowledge today such as Science or Mathematics or anything else.
In other words:
1- My math teacher can be more knowledgeable than me in math, but with my baseera (being a very good Muslim that is), I can be an equal or even better person than him or her!!
2- My master, if I were a slave, can be higher than me in authority and worldly reputation, but with my baseera (with my Islam), I can be an equal or even better person than him!!
Even their wrong word clearly supports Islam, because the verse is crystal clear in Aramaic!! The most accurate and honest translation for the Aramaic Mushlam is none other than the Arabic Muslim, which means Believer!

http://www.answering-christianity.com/luke6_40.htm

Ghost Buster

dead one wrote: »

Sir, please don't bust my ghost, spare it, please have look

Ah. So sorry. I didnt realise that unlike other religions you have myth, legend and writings which are true because they are the word of God because the writings say they are the word of God.
Point taken. Sorry:(

dead one

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Ah. So sorry. I didnt realise that unlike other religions you have myth, legend and writings which are true because they are the word of God because the writings say they are the word of God.
Point taken. Sorry:(

Sir, you forget that dead one has no ghost to bust. Sorry sir you didn't take the point . The problem with other religion is that, they are man made, Today majority of chirstian are following teaching of paul not teaching of Jesus christ. Same theory apply to muslims, many musilm submit their belief behind the back of people i.e the sect which they follow. But i honestly think Quran is from God if you are intended to discover wisdom. Read quran to search. The corruption of Bible is also mentioned in Quran. Even if Muslim are bad today it doesn't mean Islam is bad or wrong. To understand any religion you have to look its scripture not people.

2.79. Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands (interpolating into it their readings of the Scriptures and their explanatory notes thereto, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules) and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown), they declare: "This is from God. " So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned (of the worldly income and the sin thereby).
In addition to interpreting the Book of God according to their wishes, for the sake of fame, status and worldly gain, the rabbis interpolated into it their own readings of the Scriptures, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules, and attributed these to God. This caused what was human and what was Divine to be confounded. Furthermore, they expected others to believe in whatever there was in the Book, and they regarded rejection of their additions as being identical with unbelief. As pointed out in verse 78, the common people were unlettered. They tended to believe in whatever they were told in the name of religion, and thus, they were dragged along into conjectures and fancies through mere imitation. As in other similar verses, this one contains significant warning for the learned scholars and the unlearned Muslims of this community. As pointed out by Bediüzzaman Said Nursi, the religious books written by scholars should serve as “binoculars” to look at the Qur'ān, not as substitutes for it. This and similar verses also shed light on why God's Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, showed some reluctance in the early years of his mission to have his sayings written down.



http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/86/3/

The jews had changed there books, The Christian had changed it but Quran is unchangeable till judgment.

Ghost Buster

dead one wrote: »

Sir, you forget that dead one has no ghost to bust. Sorry sir you didn't take the point . The problem with other religion is that, they are man made, Today majority of chirstian are following teaching of paul not teaching of Jesus christ. Same theory apply to muslims, many musilm submit their belief behind the back of people i.e the sect which they follow. But i honestly think Quran is from God if you are intended to discover wisdom. Read quran to search. The corruption of Bible is also mentioned in Quran. Even if Muslim are bad today it doesn't mean Islam is bad or wrong. To understand any religion you have to look its scripture not people.



The jews had changed there books, The Christian had changed it but Quran is unchangeable till judgment.

Tell me. Can you honestly say that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pastafarians, Scientologists Mormons, (take your pick ) dont all think generally the same about their religion and can all make similar if not identical claims .

or as i said before... "Thats what they all say"

dead one

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Tell me. Can you honestly say that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pastafarians, Scientologists Mormons, (take your pick ) dont all think generally the same about their religion and can all make similar if not identical claims .

or as i said before... "Thats what they all say"

Sir, It is not what jews, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pastafarians, Scientologists Mormons all think, it is what they have been taught by their parents. Today majority of Muslims are Muslims because they are born in muslims family, same case is applied to jews, christian etc. Majority has been taught and also remember majority don't think for themselves. There are few person who think for themselves and those few are very rare. Even i am not saying muslims are always good they also have been taught interpretation which they are defending. the common people were unlettered. They tended to believe in whatever they were told in the name of religion, and thus, they were dragged along into conjectures and fancies through mere imitation. That's what Quran point correctly,

That is your point

"Thats what they all say"

Ghost Buster

dead one wrote: »

Sir, It is not what jews, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pastafarians, Scientologists Mormons all think, it is what they have been taught by their parents. Today majority of Muslims are Muslims because they are born in muslims family, same case is applied to jews, christian etc. Majority has been taught and also remember majority don't think for themselves. There are few person who think for themselves and those few are very rare. Even i am not saying muslims are always good they also have been taught interpretation which they are defending. the common people were unlettered. They tended to believe in whatever they were told in the name of religion, and thus, they were dragged along into conjectures and fancies through mere imitation. That's what Quran point correctly,

That is your point

Sir
And to quote you from post 6 But i honestly think Quran is from God[/B

I have had identical discourse with Irish Catholics who all think, with quotes from their version of God from their particular book, that their strain of christianity is the one true strain going back to the source

I have recently encountered an American Christian who believes, with what for her is proof, that The King James Bible is the original un altered word of God and was written in English 2000 years ago. She can prove this against such facts that English as a language did not exist 2000 years ago and most certainly not in the Middle East or that its is recorded history that The KJB was translated into English in 1611.

Im not trolling here and I hope Im not against the charter and I have no particular beef with islam but i honestly cannot understand how intelligent people cannot see the bizzarre-ness that amongst all the world religions they can all point to them selves simultaniusly and parrot "Mine is the one true faith and I can prove it... or at least thats what i believe"

I stand by my original line... "Thats what they all say"

JimiTime

dead one wrote: »

The Christianity is theology which is interpretation of People even you will nowhere find in the Bible that Jesus (PBUH) called himself as Christian

What a stupid point Of course he didn't call himself a 'Christian'. Apart from the point that a Christian is a 'Follower' of Christ, 'Christian' was a title applied after Jesus death and resurrection to label followers of Jesus.

Christ was not even his original name,

Another silly point. Christ is of course NOT his name. It is a TITLE meaning 'anointed one'.

dead one

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I stand by my original line... "Thats what they all say"

Sir buster that's what i am trying you to explain, the point which you are trying to explain is already explained in quran 1400 years ago. I have given you very good reason why "Thats what they all say" because they interpret word of God and relate it God for their own benefit.

please pay attention

2.79. Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands (interpolating into it their readings of the Scriptures and their explanatory notes thereto, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules) and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown), they declare: "This is from God. " So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned (of the worldly income and the sin thereby).
In addition to interpreting the Book of God according to their wishes, for the sake of fame, status and worldly gain, the rabbis interpolated into it their own readings of the Scriptures, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules, and attributed these to God. This caused what was human and what was Divine to be confounded. Furthermore, they expected others to believe in whatever there was in the Book, and they regarded rejection of their additions as being identical with unbelief

Sir the mainframe is that it's people who are misleading the people not the God, God has given every detail to us in Quran.

JimiTime wrote: »

What a stupid point Of course he didn't call himself a 'Christian'. Apart from the point that a Christian is a 'Follower' of Christ, 'Christian' was a title applied after Jesus death and resurrection to label followers of Jesus.

Sir Jimitime give me time. Becuase here time is constant. you didn't understand what i am saying, I am saying what Micheal Hart is saying in his books. Look if you don't believe in me, You should believe in him because he was christian. The Jesus (pbuh) never preached Christianity but Islam.

PAUL THE FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY

According to Hart, the honor for founding Christianity
is to be shared between Jesus (pbuh) and St. Paul. The latter
he believes to be the real founder of Christianity.
I cannot help agreeing with Hart. Out of the total of 27
Books of the New Testament, more than half is authored by
Paul. As opposed to Paul, the Master has not written a single
word of the twenty-seven books. If you can lay your hands
on what is called "'A Red Letter Bible," you will find every
word alleged to have been uttered by Jesus (pbuh) - in
red ink and the rest in normal black ink. Don't be shocked
to find that in this so called "Injeel," the Gospel of Jesus,
over ninety percent of the 27 Books of the New Testament
is printed in black ink!
This is the candid Christian confession on what they call
the "Injeel." In actual any confrontation with Christian
missionaries, you will find them quoting one hundred
percent from Paul.
NO ONE FOLLOWS JESUS (PBUH)
Jesus (pbuh) said,
"If you love me, keep my commandments."

(John 14:15)

He said further,
Whosoever therefore shall break one of
these least commandments, and shall
teach men so, he shall be called the
least in the kingdom of heaven . . ." (matthew 5:19)

Every Christian controversialist you question, "Do you
keep the laws and the commandments?" will answer, "No!"
If you ask further, "Why don't you?" He will if he is a Bible-
thumper, invariably reply, "The law is nailed to the cross!"
Meaning the law is done away with. "We are now living
under grace!"

Every time you prod him with what his Lord and Master
(pbuh) had said, he will confront you with something from
Cornithians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, etc. If you ask,
"Who are they?" You will hear, 'Paul, Paul, Paul!" "Who is
your master?" you question, and he will say, "Jesus!" But he
will ever and anon contradict his own Jesus (pbuh) by his
Paul!
No learned Christian will ever dispute the fact that the
real founder of Christianity is St. Paul. Therefore, Michael H.
Hart to be fair, .

Ghost Buster

dead one wrote: »

Sir buster that's what i am trying you to explain, the point which you are trying to explain is already explained in quran 1400 years ago. I have given you very good reason why "Thats what they all say" because they interpret word of God and relate it God for their own benefit.

please pay attention

2.79. Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands (interpolating into it their readings of the Scriptures and their explanatory notes thereto, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules) and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown), they declare: "This is from God. " So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned (of the worldly income and the sin thereby).
In addition to interpreting the Book of God according to their wishes, for the sake of fame, status and worldly gain, the rabbis interpolated into it their own readings of the Scriptures, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules, and attributed these to God. This caused what was human and what was Divine to be confounded. Furthermore, they expected others to believe in whatever there was in the Book, and they regarded rejection of their additions as being identical with unbelief

Sir the mainframe is that it's people who are misleading the people not the God, God has given every detail to us in Quran.



Sir Jimitime give me time. Becuase here time is constant. you didn't understand what i am saying, I am saying what Micheal Hart is saying in his books. Look if you don't believe in me, You should believe in him because he was christian. The Jesus (pbuh) never preached Christianity but Islam.

Hi again old buddy

Se the two lines in bold.
You all interpret the word of God in your own way.... EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YE
And you say God has given every detail to us in Quaran/ Bible/ Old Testament/ Talmud/ Bhagavad Gita/Upanishad... fill in what ever your holy book is.


Sorry... but thats what they all say

JimiTime

dead one wrote: »

Sir Jimitime

When was I knighted?:)

you didn't understand what i am saying

I did. Its there in your post. You used the fact that Christ was not Jesus' name like it was some kind of secret, or eureka moment. Christ is a Greek word for Messiah. Messiah was not Jesus name, but rather his title.

, I am saying what Micheal Hart is saying in his books. Look if you don't believe in me, You should believe in him because he was christian. The Jesus (pbuh) never preached Christianity but Islam.

As much as it is complete nonsense, i wont argue with you about it here. Your basis points like the ones you raised earlier though are just silly.

irishconvert

Ok, knock it off you lot, this forum is for Muslims to discuss Islam, or non Muslims to ask genuine questions. Please read the charter before posting any further nonsense

JimiTime

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, knock it off you lot, this forum is for Muslims to discuss Islam, or non Muslims to ask genuine questions. Please read the charter before posting any further nonsense

It would help if you could point out where the charter has been broken.

irishconvert

JimiTime wrote: »

It would help if you could point out where the charter has been broken.

I am mainly referring to the echange between Ghost Buster and dead one. This forum is not for Muslims to have to defend their faith from attack.

This thread has gone way off topic now. Please stick to the topic raised by the OP.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

I am mainly referring to the echange between Ghost Buster and dead one. This forum is not for Muslims to have to defend their faith from attack.

Ghost Buster is asking a very genuine question, one which should be fundamental to anyone non muslim looking at islam (or anyone looking at a religion or ideology different to their own): what makes your religion any more likely than any other religion (paraphrased)?

Every religions holy texts support their own conclusions about their own veracity but they all cant be true. Simply pointing to your particular holy texts claims of veracity is not enough, so you need something external to the texts claims to support the texts claims (some piece of evidence or some piece of reason and logic that doesn't circle back upon the texts original claims). Surely, you as a convert, must have asked these questions? Did the muslims you talked to before converting claim you where attacking them? How did you deal with this issue?


(if you think that this particular point is off topic, then move it to a new thread, although, tbh, the OP was never going to get a more honest and accurate answer than the one you gave in post #3, as his question never really made much sense, so letting this thread continue on may be the simplest route)

Larsist

It is quite interesting, I actually thing this thread has reached a conclusion of sorts. Based on the input from every post, the religion you follow is based on the book you believe in and your personal belief that that book is the true word of god.

Therefore without the book you may believe in a god but you would not follow a religion.

I know the original question relates to the sharing of this knowledge as well but the books in question where created to share the knowledge of their respective religion.

Interesting.

Ghost Buster

irishconvert wrote: »

I am mainly referring to the echange between Ghost Buster and dead one. This forum is not for Muslims to have to defend their faith from attack.

This thread has gone way off topic now. Please stick to the topic raised by the OP.

Defend from attack???
A little OTT dont you think?
We have been having a very polite debate which is more or less on topic and i have stressed at least once that i am not picking a fight.
Difficult questions are not an attack.

When ever religion is questioned its an attack eh?

THATS WHAT THEY ALL SAY

Tigerbaby

and here we go again. the Atheists post the very same arguments against Christianity. Its the age old collision between Faith and Empiricism.

Dead one, I feel sorry for you. Do not engage with these people. They do not want to debate with you. They want to destroy you. You are engaging as honestly as you can, in good faith. You must understand that these people are "Liberal Fascists" i.e. unless you adhere to their narrow view of the World, then you are wrong.

Worse than that, these people in the end will try to deny and debase your Faith. Listen not to the many subtle voices of Satan. He is to be found lurking among "reasonable", "rational" people.

Listen to your heart.

God Bless you.

Tadhg. ( an evolving revert )

Mark Hamill

Tigerbaby wrote: »

and here we go again. the Atheists post the very same arguments against Christianity. Its the age old collision between Faith and Empiricism.

Dead one, I feel sorry for you. Do not engage with these people. They do not want to debate with you. They want to destroy you. You are engaging as honestly as you can, in good faith. You must understand that these people are "Liberal Fascists" i.e. unless you adhere to their narrow view of the World, then you are wrong.

Worse than that, these people in the end will try to deny and debase your Faith. Listen not to the many subtle voices of Satan. He is to be found lurking among "reasonable", "rational" people.

Listen to your heart.

God Bless you.

Tadhg. ( an evolving revert )

Its is not an argument against your or any religion. It is simply a request for more information. The argument put forward by dead one, is put forward by all religions, its not unique and unfortunately doesn't single out one religion as being more likely than any other, so we simply ask for more information. Unfortunately for you, every response you give counts as information. Accusations of attack, fascism or evil are information that points to your inability to give a rational response to what is a very pertinent question. Your slightly hysteric responses only work against your own points, you do yourself no favours and goes against the spirit of the forum (asking honest questions about islam).

Ghost Buster

Tigerbaby wrote: »

and here we go again. the Atheists post the very same arguments against Christianity. Its the age old collision between Faith and Empiricism.

Dead one, I feel sorry for you. Do not engage with these people. They do not want to debate with you. They want to destroy you. You are engaging as honestly as you can, in good faith. You must understand that these people are "Liberal Fascists" i.e. unless you adhere to their narrow view of the World, then you are wrong.

Worse than that, these people in the end will try to deny and debase your Faith. Listen not to the many subtle voices of Satan. He is to be found lurking among "reasonable", "rational" people.

Listen to your heart.

God Bless you.

Tadhg. ( an evolving revert )

My atheism is irrelevant. What ever my beliefs are it is a simple fact that every major world religion claims that they, their book and beliefs are the only true ones. They all give broadly the same evidence for this and all shoot each others beliefs down in broadly the same way.
My pointing out and discussing a fact is not-
debasing of your faith
an attack
'the voice of satan" !!!
liberal fascism (get a grip)
Its just the way it is. Sorry.
You cannot all be right.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Ghost Buster is asking a very genuine question, one which should be fundamental to anyone non muslim looking at islam (or anyone looking at a religion or ideology different to their own): what makes your religion any more likely than any other religion (paraphrased)?

Please don't discuss moderation decisions on thread, read rule 16 of the charter if you are unhappy.

irishconvert

Ghost Buster banned for ignoring moderator request to follow the charter

philologos

DrumSteve wrote: »

This is a question that I've had in my head for a long time. I mean, I'm not a believer in Christianity though I was brought up a Catholic. However if the Bible and passed down stories had never existed would people still believe in Jesus or in this case the Qu'ran and Allah/Mohhamed.

Would a God have been invented to replace him? And if so does this questions the very basis of Faith in general?

Non-Muslim here.

The only problem with your question is the assumption. You are assuming that this is invented.

Presumably most Muslims would tell you that the Qur'an exists pretty much because God did reveal to them.

I presume if the Qur'an didn't exist, if God actually exists He would reveal Himself to mankind in another way. If Islam is true and I've said I don't believe in Islam then whether or not a book happens to exist doesn't have any significance in claiming that God exists.

Prophets, and revelation are of course the reason why people believe. Whether or not you believe these are entirely false, untrue or the scribblings of the uneducated is entirely up to you.

There

wrote:

This is a question that I've had in my head for a long time. I mean, I'm not a believer in Christianity though I was brought up a Catholic. However if the Bible and passed down stories had never existed would people still believe in Jesus or in this case the Qu'ran and Allah/Mohhamed.

Would a God have been invented to replace him? And if so does this questions the very basis of Faith in general?

Interesting question.

OP look at it this way, lets take Islam and Chrisitanity both believe Adam was the first person, God created and was in contact with at the beginning. So God was there from the very start. Thats just a really simple way of clearing up those 2 faiths from the start.

DrumSteve

Jakkass wrote: »

Non-Muslim here.

The only problem with your question is the assumption. You are assuming that this is invented.

Presumably most Muslims would tell you that the Qur'an exists pretty much because God did reveal to them.

I presume if the Qur'an didn't exist, if God actually exists He would reveal Himself to mankind in another way. If Islam is true and I've said I don't believe in Islam then whether or not a book happens to exist doesn't have any significance in claiming that God exists.

Prophets, and revelation are of course the reason why people believe. Whether or not you believe these are entirely false, untrue or the scribblings of the uneducated is entirely up to you.

There wrote: »

Interesting question.

OP look at it this way, lets take Islam and Chrisitanity both believe Adam was the first person, God created and was in contact with at the beginning. So God was there from the very start. Thats just a really simple way of clearing up those 2 faiths from the start.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the interesting responses.

I understand that my initial post was not very clear I'll try break it down again. Say, if tomorrow, you were hit in the head and got amnesia. You had no memory of anything at all. If no one ever described Allah/Jesus to you after this point... would you know to believe in him and his word if all evidence of people believing in him was erased.

My point is without humanity passing on what they believe to people who don't believe can religion/ deitys exist? As a non believer myself I find it hard to believe that an all powerful being needs human prayer to exist...? For if you all stopped praying to that God he would cease to exist,as no one would remember him...? And if that's the case would he have existed in the first place without invention?

philologos

DrumSteve wrote: »

My point is without humanity passing on what they believe to people who don't believe can religion/ deitys exist? As a non believer myself I find it hard to believe that an all powerful being needs human prayer to exist...? For if you all stopped praying to that God he would cease to exist,as no one would remember him...? And if that's the case would he have existed in the first place without invention?

This is an illogical question. God's existence doesn't depend on memory unless God is just an invented deity. If God does exist, I wholly believe that He would reveal Himself to us just as He did before the Bible. I presume Muslims feel the same about the Qur'an.

Your question is effectively the same thing as saying that gods are created in mans image. That's great, but it raises a lot of questions for you too.

Your question raises the question does God have subjective or objective existence. Most Christians and Muslims believe that God has objective existence therefore He would still nonetheless exist in the absence of belief or if everyone decided to become an atheist.

DrumSteve

Jakkass wrote: »

This is an illogical question. God's existence doesn't depend on memory unless God is just an invented deity. If God does exist, I wholly believe that He would reveal Himself to us just as He did before the Bible. I presume Muslims feel the same about the Qur'an.

Your question is effectively the same thing as saying that gods are created in mans image. That's great, but it raises a lot of questions for you too.

Your question raises the question does God have subjective or objective existence. Most Christians and Muslims believe that God has objective existence therefore He would still nonetheless exist in the absence of belief or if everyone decided to become an atheist.

Such as?

I believe that God was created by man not that other way around.

philologos

Exactly, and you're bringing this assumption in with you and are refusing to consider the possibility that God could well actually exist and that God could in turn reveal Himself to humanity as He had done before? This is why it is an illogical question. It's like asking someone do they still beat their wife? You are assuming that they have beaten their wife to begin with. (Petitio principii logical fallacy)

One of many questions I can ask:
How can we be convinced that God is the invention of man rather than having objective basis?

As a non believer myself I find it hard to believe that an all powerful being needs human prayer to exist...? For if you all stopped praying to that God he would cease to exist,as no one would remember him...? And if that's the case would he have existed in the first place without invention?

Nobody has said God needs prayer to exist, that's absurd. Therefore your argument is without basis. Existence isn't dependant on human memory.

DrumSteve

Jakkass wrote: »

Exactly, and you're bringing this assumption in with you and are refusing to consider the possibility that God could well actually exist and that God could in turn reveal Himself to humanity as He had done before? This is why it is an illogical question. It's like asking someone do they still beat their wife? You are assuming that they have beaten their wife to begin with. (Petitio principii logical fallacy)

One of many questions I can ask:
How can we be convinced that God is the invention of man rather than having objective basis?



Nobody has said God needs prayer to exist, that's absurd. Therefore your argument is without basis. Existence isn't dependant on human memory.

So what is existance dependent on...? An Assumption? You could believe he existed but based on what? If no one ever spoke about him or said anything to that effect would you believe in your specific version of God?

If you didn't pray to him or know he existed what would be the point of him?

My personal beliefs don't come into it either thats why I asked this question to people who believe in God not in the aethiest forum. But since you ask:

How can we be convinced that God is the invention of man rather than having objective basis?

Because I have never seen irrefutable proof that God exists. Anywhere. Other than being told by people my whole life that's he's up there and he's watching you... which is based on what?

irishconvert

DrumSteve wrote: »

So what is existance dependent on...? An Assumption? You could believe he existed but based on what? If no one ever spoke about him or said anything to that effect would you believe in your specific version of God?

If you didn't pray to him or know he existed what would be the point of him?

My personal beliefs don't come into it either thats why I asked this question to people who believe in God not in the aethiest forum. But since you ask:

How can we be convinced that God is the invention of man rather than having objective basis?

Because I have never seen irrefutable proof that God exists. Anywhere. Other than being told by people my whole life that's he's up there and he's watching you... which is based on what?

DrumSTeve, let me ask you, how much have you looked into the evidence the God exists? Have you read the Qur'an for example? Have you read other religious books such as the Bible or Torah? How do you come to your conclusion that God does not exist?

DrumSteve

irishconvert wrote: »

DrumSTeve, let me ask you, how much have you looked into the evidence the God exists? Have you read the Qur'an for example? Have you read other religious books such as the Bible or Torah? How do you come to your conclusion that God does not exist?

I have read a good part of the Bible, not so much the Torah or the Qu'ran.

I just do not see any proof of his existence anywhere. I look at those books as as some sort of a guide for people to live their lives to not as proof that a supernatural being exists.

irishconvert

DrumSteve wrote: »

I have read a good part of the Bible, not so much the Torah or the Qu'ran.

I just do not see any proof of his existence anywhere. I look at those books as as some sort of a guide for people to live their lives to not as proof that a supernatural being exists.

Do you believe there is Extraterrestrial life?

DrumSteve

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you believe there is Extraterrestrial life?

Can you subject the search for God to the same scientific rigours that would be applied to finding Extra-terrestrial life?

irishconvert

DrumSteve wrote: »

Can you subject the search for God to the same scientific rigours that would be applied to finding Extra-terrestrial life?

That is not an answer to my question

philologos

DrumSteve wrote: »

So what is existance dependent on...? An Assumption? You could believe he existed but based on what? If no one ever spoke about him or said anything to that effect would you believe in your specific version of God?

Existence is dependant on objective reality which may or may not be believed. If everybody outside of Australia believed that Australia didn't exist, it would none the less exist because it is objectively so. Following this logic in the reverse in respect to God produces the outcome that if God exists objectively as Christians and Muslims believe even if nobody believed that He existed He nonetheless would.

DrumSteve wrote: »

If you didn't pray to him or know he existed what would be the point of him?

I'm not the only person on the earth. In an example compatible with both Christianity and Islam, Abraham didn't know that God existed until He revealed Himself to him.

You are also making the mistake that God's existence must have a point for us. He's not an ATM. He isn't just something that we can just 'use'. He is the Lord of the universe in both Christianity and Islam, and He existed before we did. Indeed, He isn't there because he is required by us to be there.

DrumSteve wrote: »

My personal beliefs don't come into it either thats why I asked this question to people who believe in God not in the aethiest forum. But since you ask:

Your personal beliefs are slap bang in the middle of the question in the same way as if someone asks if you are still beating your wife they assume that you have beaten your wife on at least one occasion prior.

DrumSteve wrote: »

How can we be convinced that God is the invention of man rather than having objective basis?

Because I have never seen irrefutable proof that God exists. Anywhere. Other than being told by people my whole life that's he's up there and he's watching you... which is based on what?

This doesn't answer the question. It is dodging it. I wait in expectation.

Hobbes

Jakkass wrote: »

You are also making the mistake that God's existence must have a point for us.

Not many people seem to read the charter so I will explain it again. This forum is not for people to have to defend their faith from attacks. They can answer your questions, it might not be the answer you want (or even explain what you want) but that is where it ends.

The same goes the other way, while this isn't the forum that an Atheist is going to get a easy ride, at the end of the day they do not have to defend themselves. If you want to ask questions to an Atheist, use the respective forum.

So please everyone change the language in how you are asking the questions. (and please no follow ups on what I mentioned or 'he did it first').

There

I have read a good part of the Bible, not so much the Torah or the Qu'ran.

I just do not see any proof of his existence anywhere. I look at those books as as some sort of a guide for people to live their lives to not as proof that a supernatural being exists.

Until you read those books you cant really make that assumption in the second part of your statement.

virmilitaris

irishconvert wrote: »

DrumSTeve, let me ask you, how much have you looked into the evidence the God exists? Have you read the Qur'an for example? Have you read other religious books such as the Bible or Torah? How do you come to your conclusion that God does not exist?

I hope I'm not butting in here but I'd like to give my few cents here.

I've read the Bible and a lot of the Qur'an, in English if that makes a difference. I found absolutely nothing special about either except they seem to have a lot in common.

I don't see how either could be used for evidence of anything besides the fact that people could write about their culture in the past just as badly as they can write about it now.

Could you direct me towards a particular passage where you feel this evidence makes itself known ?

I've come to the conclusion that god probably doesn't exist because there isn't anything to suggest otherwise. I'd also like to append to this the fact that even if your god existed and there was proof of such I would not worship it especially because of what is written in the Bible and the Qur'an.

Perhaps you could explain to me why, if it were all true, I should worship your god ?

dj357

I think, in regards to the OP, a better, probing question, would be: if, as mentioned, one ended up with a loss of memory and lost all knowledge of their God, in this case Allah, and this knowledge was not reacquired through exposure to peoples or doctrines of the faith, would it be necessary for God to reveal himself in another way (which DrumSteve is, if I'm not wrong, claiming has never actually happened, a claim I agree with) before that person would be able to know of that God once again, or would that person naturally come to the conclusion that specific God exists?

I think what he is trying to tease out is, is our belief in gods, and further, which specific god we believe in, tied overwhelmingly to the books and cultures we are exposed to? It's an important question. As other posters have said, God's existence is not dependent on prayer or even anyone knowing of him. A better question would be, is our knowledge of God dependent upon his existence...? It's worth pointing out that all of us have a great many pieces of knowledge on things that most certainly do not exist.

irishconvert

virmilitaris wrote: »

I hope I'm not butting in here but I'd like to give my few cents here.

I've read the Bible and a lot of the Qur'an, in English if that makes a difference. I found absolutely nothing special about either except they seem to have a lot in common.

I don't see how either could be used for evidence of anything besides the fact that people could write about their culture in the past just as badly as they can write about it now.

Could you direct me towards a particular passage where you feel this evidence makes itself known ?

I've come to the conclusion that god probably doesn't exist because there isn't anything to suggest otherwise. I'd also like to append to this the fact that even if your god existed and there was proof of such I would not worship it especially because of what is written in the Bible and the Qur'an.

Perhaps you could explain to me why, if it were all true, I should worship your god ?

From my point of view I always had this gut feeling is that there is a creator. I simply can't believe that everything in this world just came to be. As I learnt more about Islam and read the Qur'an it fit in to how I felt naturally. The Qur'an is not a book to be used to prove God exists, it is a book of guidance on how we should live our lives. It's like a manual for life from God. If your default opinion is that there could not be such thing as God, then I doubt reading the Qur'an is going to change that view.

dj357

irishconvert wrote: »

I simply can't believe that everything in this world just came to be.

But you do know that nothing "just came to be" right...?

irishconvert wrote: »

The Qur'an is not a book to be used to prove God exists, it is a book of guidance on how we should live our lives.

How do lines such as those below help us to live our lives?

Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10

If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they'd understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30

irishconvert

dj357 banned for breach of charter rule #1.

philologos

There wrote: »

Until you read those books you cant really make that assumption in the second part of your statement.

Indeed. Although I'd point out if you have read from Genesis - Deuteronomy you've read the Torah.

I don't think one can have an indepth opinion without reading the Bible in entirety or any other religious texts. I'd prefer not to criticise the Qur'an until I gain a good knowledge of it.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

From my point of view I always had this gut feeling is that there is a creator.
As I learnt more about Islam and read the Qur'an it fit in to how I felt naturally.

The problem with these, are that they are subjective. Some people feel the same way about other religious texts. What do you think is happening when people get the same feeling you get with the quran, but from other books? Are they to blame, are they just unlucky?

irishconvert wrote: »

I simply can't believe that everything in this world just came to be.

What do you mean by "just came to be"?

irishconvert wrote: »

The Qur'an is not a book to be used to prove God exists, it is a book of guidance on how we should live our lives. It's like a manual for life from God.

A lot of the rules of the quran come across as arbitrary (at least to people and places who dont have them and dont immediately suffer from them), so invariably, the confirmation of the existence of the authority behind the book is necessary to accept that you should follow the rules you dont understand.

irishconvert wrote: »

If your default opinion is that there could not be such thing as God, then I doubt reading the Qur'an is going to change that view.

My default opinion is that so far, no-one has convinced that any god exists. I'm open to offers though.

philologos

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The problem with these, are that they are subjective. Some people feel the same way about other religious texts. What do you think is happening when people get the same feeling you get with the quran, but from other books? Are they to blame, are they just unlucky?

If the Qur'an happens to be correct it is not subjective. A possibility that seems to be ignored by most atheists. If the Qur'an is true, irrespective of how many believe it it will continue to be true.*

* Not that I am arguing that Islam is true, but rather a demonstration that your logic is flawed due to some "no go" areas that you and the OP have set up.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What do you mean by "just came to be"?

What do you think it means? - That everything came to be of its own accord, that the universe caused itself. Seems absurd to me as well.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

A lot of the rules of the quran come across as arbitrary (at least to people and places who dont have them and dont immediately suffer from them), so invariably, the confirmation of the existence of the authority behind the book is necessary to accept that you should follow the rules you dont understand.

What is your experience of the Qur'an, just curious?

Mark Hamill wrote: »

My default opinion is that so far, no-one has convinced that any god exists. I'm open to offers though.

Nobody has convinced you. True. I suspect the automatic raising of the goalposts though. I suspect there is something to do with a desire for the conclusion to be false also.