If No One Had Told You About Allah.... Would You Still Believe In Him?

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But what yardstick do you use to determine that the quran is the best yardstick?

That is science. Quran is going in accordance with Science. Quran don't contradict with Science.
Now please tell

What is that yardstick which cause you to believe that life on earth is accident.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You dont have to be an atheist to recognise that science is the best method we, as humans, have to measure or test something. Its quotes like these that make me think that the people talking dont seem to understand what science actually is. They seem to think that science and scientists are the same, that a failure of scientists means a failure of science (hence the point about "u-turns"), as if my failure to build a table implies a failure in the whole concept of carpentry.

That quotation doesn't say that you should become atheist, It is saying that many atheist use science to measure and test. So why they don't test quran by Science. If Quran is wrong than it is quite sure science will prove it wrong.

Sorry i tried to find the link but can't find it, so next time i will put the link whenever i quote thanks

virmilitaris

dead one wrote: »

Why we should worship Allah, because it's the only way to create peace on Earth.

I didn't find any of your arguments the least bit convincing or worthy of discussion.

No one has given me a reason to give thanks / worship Allah yet.

dead one

virmilitaris wrote: »

I didn't find any of your arguments the least bit convincing or worthy of discussion.

No one has given me a reason to give thanks / worship Allah yet.

Ah i guess, You are not willingly to accept it.

Than can i ask, How will you define worship?. What is worship according to you?

What you think what kind of monster is worship, please give detail what is in your mind about worship.

virmilitaris

dead one wrote: »

Ah i guess, You are not willingly to accept it.

Than can i ask, How will you define worship?. What is worship according to you?

What you think what kind of monster is worship, please give detail what is in your mind about worship.

I said worship or thanks.

I don't see any reason to thank Allah or to give him any thanks. What's the reason to do so if my life will be the same regardless of whether I give him thanks or not.

dead one

virmilitaris wrote: »

I said worship or thanks.

I don't see any reason to thank Allah or to give him any thanks. What's the reason to do so if my life will be the same regardless of whether I give him thanks or not.

Reason is you and your life. You are nothing he created you from nothing. Isn't it your right to thank him. Suppose i give a gift to you what is best way to repel it, you should remember me and thankful to me. Same is case of this life, this life is God's gift to man. So a man should always thankful to the God. Now many people are thankful to evolution by believing that life on earth is an accident so why not thank to him who started this accident isn't it irony. [SIZE=-1]Being grateful is to render one’s thanks to someone who has shown favor, to express gratitude and to appreciate. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] The concept of being grateful to Allah, on the other hand, is to grasp and express that every kind of grace and favor is granted exclusively by Allah. In the Qur’an, the opposite of being grateful is defined by the term “disbelief”, which is synonymous to being ungrateful. Only this definition indicates the importance attached to being grateful as a worship and the detrimental consequences it may have for a believer.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Gratefulness to Allah is one of the concepts mostly emphasized in the Qur'an. In almost 70 verses, the importance of rendering thanks to Allah is stated, the examples of those who are grateful and ungrateful are given and the end they face is related. The reason why so much importance is given to this concept is simply because it is a mere indication of one’s faith and affirmation of the oneness of Allah. In one of the verses “being grateful” is described as “worshipping only to Allah”[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=-1]O you who believe! Eat of the good things that We have provided for you, and be grateful to Allah, if it is Him you worship. (Al-Baqara, 172)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In another verse giving thanks to Allah is described as the opposite of idolatry:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]But it has already been revealed to you,- as it was to those before you,- "If you were to join (gods with Allah), truly fruitless will be your work (in life), and you will surely be in the anks of those who lose (all spiritual good)". Nay, but worship Allah, and be of those who give thanks. (Az-Zumar, 65-66)[/SIZE]
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virmilitaris

dead one wrote: »

Reason is you and your life. You are nothing he created you from nothing.

And he created me regardless of whether or not I will thank him for it.

Isn't it your right to thank him.

Yes it is my right just as it is my right not to thank him.

Suppose i give a gift to you what is best way to repel it, you should remember me and thankful to me.

If you're a rich man and you gave me 50 euros I would say "Thanks" and never think about it again.

Allah is a god and he has given me a mortal life with many advantages and disadvantages. Was it not in his power to give me a better life ? Is my life such a magnificent gift compared to what he could have given me ? Could he not have made me better if he so choose ?

I will say "Thanks" and think nothing more of it.

Same is case of this life, this life is God's gift to man. So a man should always thankful to the God.

Why ? Whether I thank him or not nothing will change. You haven't given me any reason to do so.

dead one

virmilitaris wrote: »

And he created me regardless of whether or not I will thank him for it.

He didn't created you whether or not you will thank him but for it is for you to choose "thank" for him. He needs no thank from you. Because he wants to test you. It's all about your choice. He has given you full right you can be thankful to him or you can be neutral etc. It is also for test, whether you should say thank to him or you disobey him. Please see

Do men think that they will be left alone on saying “We believe”, and that they will not be tested? We did test those before them and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false. Qur’an 29:2-3

What is purpose of this test because Satan challenge God

"It is We Who Created you and gave you shape; then We bade the Angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down. (Allah) said: 'What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee? He said: 'I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay. (Allah) said: 'Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures). He said: 'Give me respite till the day they are raised up. (Allah) said: 'Be thou amongst those who have respite.' He said: 'Because thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy Straight Way: Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (of Thy mercies).' (Allah) said: 'Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee - Hell will I fill with you all. (The Noble Quran, 11-18)"

virmilitaris wrote: »

Yes it is my right just as it is my right not to thank him.

Who gives you choices of "rights" that is God. So whatever your choice may be, you will be judge by God on the day of Resurrection. I hope you won't blame God on that day!. Simple example is enough to make this clear. Suppose there are two roads A and B. The road A is safe and B is dangerous. It is upon you which road you may choose. If you choose dangerous road than why you don't blame yourself. If you are not thankful to God ultimately you are disbelieving his kindness. Is this how you should repel his kindness.

virmilitaris wrote: »

If you're a rich man and you gave me 50 euros I would say "Thanks" and never think about it again.

If i give you again 100$ than what would you say?. This life is never ending debt of God to his children. He gives every day to you with new sunshine, you eat, you enjoy so what is wrong if you say thank to him.

virmilitaris wrote: »

Allah is a god and he has given me a mortal life with many advantages and disadvantages. Was it not in his power to give me a better life ? Is my life such a magnificent gift compared to what he could have given me ? Could he not have made me better if he so choose ?

The better answer for what you said it that You are creation, he is creator, why he created this life with disadvantages. It is for him. Why i am saying this because limitness of my knowledge. What i can tell you, i telling you from quran. This mortal world, this life with disadvantages will pass even if your age 10000 years but what about never ending life. {Look how We have favored [in provision] some of them over others. But the Hereafter is greater in degrees [of difference] and greater in distinction.} [Quran 17:21] Allaah also Says (what means): {…and have raised some of them above others in degrees [of rank] that they may make use of one another for service. But the mercy of your Lord is better than whatever they accumulate.} [Quran 43:32]

virmilitaris wrote: »

Why ? Whether I thank him or not nothing will change. You haven't given me any reason to do so.

Atleast you thank or not but it can't remove the greatest fact that he gives you gift life from nothing. Do you really think the life you have is your own life. So also do you think it is justice not to thank him who is so kind on you. So it is injustice on you part if you don't thank him.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

Some people don't understand the meaning of worship. Worship isn't that you bow on your ankle and say Ha Ho Ha and on the other hand you lies and abuse other people all the time. Worship actually means completely surrender yourself before Allah. That if you are not abusing, You are worshiping Allah. If you don't tell lies, You are worshiping Allah. If are just with other you are worshiping Allah. If you are following commandment of Allah you are worshiping Allah. On the other hand if you are following you desires than you are worshiping your desires as many atheists had made their selves as god. The subject is already discussed in Quran

My religion holds that desire is the root of suffering, so your idea of follow your god vs give in to desires is obviously a false dichtomy, not only in my case either.
Being a good person is presumably not the same as worshiping your god, so what is the difference? All you've done is talk about hypocrites who claim to worship but don't - that's not what was asked.

Why we should worship Allah, because it's the only way to create peace on Earth.

:rolleyes:

virmilitaris

Dead one i didn't quote you because almost nothing inyour last post had any relevance to my questions.

You did say that my choice to give thanks or not was a test. A test of what? I already said I accept his existence. What test is this? Just to see if I give him thanks or not?

As far as I can tell he has given me no reason to give thanks. By not giving thanks what do I lose? By giving thanks what do I gain?

I've lived quite happily all of my life so far without giving thanks. What will gvng thanks change?

You've quoted a lot of scripture which is fine but irrelevant to this discussion. I said I accept he exists and everything that is written about hinlm is true. I still see no reason to give thanks, worship him or follow the quran.

irishconvert

virmilitaris wrote: »

Dead one i didn't quote you because almost nothing inyour last post had any relevance to my questions.

You did say that my choice to give thanks or not was a test. A test of what? I already said I accept his existence. What test is this? Just to see if I give him thanks or not?

As far as I can tell he has given me no reason to give thanks. By not giving thanks what do I lose? By giving thanks what do I gain?

I've lived quite happily all of my life so far without giving thanks. What will gvng thanks change?

You've quoted a lot of scripture which is fine but irrelevant to this discussion. I said I accept he exists and everything that is written about hinlm is true. I still see no reason to give thanks, worship him or follow the quran.

You are entirely focused on this life. What about the next life? This life is just a preparation for the next. This life is nothing more than a test. You will be rewarded in the next life for your actions in this life.

virmilitaris

irishconvert wrote: »

You are entirely focused on this life. What about the next life? This life is just a preparation for the next. This life is nothing more than a test. You will be rewarded in the next life for your actions in this life.

Rewarded how? What do I have to do to get this reward? What happens if I don't get the reward? Do I not get a second life?

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

You are entirely focused on this life. What about the next life? This life is just a preparation for the next. This life is nothing more than a test. You will be rewarded in the next life for your actions in this life.

So we should just do as we are told for a reward?

irishconvert

virmilitaris wrote: »

Rewarded how? What do I have to do to get this reward? What happens if I don't get the reward? Do I not get a second life?

We, as Muslims, believe you have to follow the Qur'an. What happens to you if you don't follow these teachings, I cannot tell you. That is up to Allah.

bluewolf wrote: »

So we should just do as we are told for a reward?

Not just for reward. We do it because it pleases Allah. As Muslims, we submit to the will of Allah.

BMF Plint

The sooner that people understand that all religion is nothing but a bronze age fantasy twisted and adapted by others to suit there needs. Everyone obviously thinks that there religion is correct, no questions asked. To me religion is the most highly illogical concept that human beings still embrace. I would like you all to contemplate this, The Lord of the rings was written 2000 years ago and people embraced it then some person came along and twisted it to his own liking and called himself a "prophet" and some people followed him and his making of things while then some other person came along and claimed he was the son of gandalf which propelled his religion even further and then another prophet came along and as you can see it goes on and on and on. But the idiotic part of it is that each of these different sects think there religion is right but the all evolved from the lord of the rings and hold the same core principal.. People don't realize that they are actually following the prophet not god. If I claimed to be a prophet would you follow me?

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

That is science. Quran is going in accordance with Science. Quran don't contradict with Science.
Now please tell

What is that yardstick which cause you to believe that life on earth is accident.

And how can you tell, scientifically, that the quran is superior to science?

dead one wrote: »

That quotation doesn't say that you should become atheist, It is saying that many atheist use science to measure and test. So why they don't test quran by Science. If Quran is wrong than it is quite sure science will prove it wrong.

Thats what we are doing. People have proposed scientific claims from the quran and we are discussing them.

dead one

virmilitaris wrote: »

As far as I can tell he has given me no reason to give thanks. By not giving thanks what do I lose? By giving thanks what do I gain?

Let us talk to the reason. Who gives you life when you r nothing. What you r eating, enjoying or drinking with your fives scenes is not enough reason to thank him. Your are eyes are the reason with them you see the beauty of world. Isn't it reason. Ask to your

Now can you give me reason, Have you created yourself?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

You are entirely focused on this life. What about the next life? This life is just a preparation for the next. This life is nothing more than a test. You will be rewarded in the next life for your actions in this life.

By offering (or just by letting us know of) such extreme rewards as heaven and hell, has objectivity been thrown out the window? What I mean is, that everyone who is working to be good and to worship god, has, unavoidably, in the back of their minds these rewards, and so a lot of the good they are doing is going to be done in the name of these rewards, as opposed to because its good, which, according to dead one, is what bad muslims do.

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And how can you tell, scientifically, that the quran is superior to science?

50 Years ago science believes sun was stationery. But it is written 1400 years ago in Quran that everything in universe is moving including Sun. So there are lot of mysteries still in the Quran which Science hasn't discover but it's doesn't mean Quran is wrong.

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

On the other hand if you are following you desires than you are worshiping your desires as many atheists had made their selves as god. The subject is already discussed in Quran

How can atheists have made themselves god if they dont believe in any god?

dead one wrote: »

To make one's lust one's god" implies that one should become a slave of one's lusts and desires: one should do whatever one likes whether God has forbidden it, and should not do what one dislikes, whether God has made it obligatory. When a man starts obeying somebody like this, it means that his deity is not God but the one whom he is obeying without question, no matter whether he calls him his Iord (with the tongue) or not, and carves out an image of him and worship: him or not. For when he has worshipped him directly without question, it is enough to make him a deity because one did not call the object of one's worship one's deity with the tongue, nor prostrated oneself before it.

You think atheists just whatever they like whenever they like? Have you ever actually met an atheist? If this were true, then countries with large amounts of atheists would collapse into anarchy.

dead one wrote: »

Why we should worship Allah, because it's the only way to create peace on Earth.

Why aren't muslim countries the most peaceful countries in the world then?

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

My religion holds that desire is the root of suffering, so your idea of follow your god vs give in to desires is obviously a false dichtomy, not only in my case either.

It's not my idea, It is fact which you ignoring, You need no God to govern your lives because you r god of yourself. That is exaclty what quran tells that some people make their desires as their lord. Why you are not following God's desires or God's word because it is difficult for you to leave what you are worshiping i.e. your desires.

bluewolf wrote: »

Being a good person is presumably not the same as worshiping your god, so what is the difference? All you've done is talk about hypocrites who claim to worship but don't - that's not what was asked.
:rolleyes:

can you tell me who decides, what is Good and what is bad, Please clear me.

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

50 Years ago science believes sun was stationery. But it is written 1400 years ago in Quran that everything in universe is moving including Sun. So there are lot of mysteries still in the Quran which Science hasn't discover but it's doesn't mean Quran is wrong.

1400 hundred years ago, many believed the sun orbited the earth, how do you know that wasn't what the quran meant?

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

It's not my idea, It is fact which you ignoring, You need no God to govern your lives because you r god of yourself. That is exaclty what quran tells that some people make their desires as their lord. Why you are not following God's desires or God's word because it is difficult for you to leave what you are worshiping i.e. your desires.

A large part of what humans do is restrict their own desires, its unavoidable. Our desires are quite reactionary and animalistic, when we are hungry, we want to eat, when he are aroused, we want to mate etc. However, we recognise that to simply give into desires at any time will mean chaos. Peoples desires tend to overlap, there will be never ending conflict if people were just slaves to their desires. So we make laws, based (supposedly) on reason, that create peace and give everyone a fair chance.

dead one wrote: »

can you tell me who decides, what is Good and what is bad, Please clear me.

Humans do, in consensus, when they are doing it right. This goes for religion too, if you think about. Allah may tell you what it is to be good, be you decide whether or not to bother to be good, you decide that it is good to be good.

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How can atheists have made themselves god if they dont believe in any god?

Answer to your question is very simple. you don't believe any god, than you are god of yourself. It doesn't matter whether you think yourself as god or not. Why there is God, have you ever wonder? Can please tell me what do think about GHod

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You think atheists just whatever they like whenever they like? Have you ever actually met an atheist? If this were true, then countries with large amounts of atheists would collapse into anarchy.


Why aren't muslim countries the most peaceful countries in the world then?

Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries (infact they aren't pure islamic societies). Have you ever wonder? Because Islam provide justice to people. It has solution for all of yours problems. Islam don't need to torture people if you don't believe in Allah.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

It's not my idea, It is fact which you ignoring, You need no God to govern your lives because you r god of yourself. That is exaclty what quran tells that some people make their desires as their lord. Why you are not following God's desires or God's word because it is difficult for you to leave what you are worshiping i.e. your desires.

Are you even listening to me or just repeating rhetoric?

can you tell me who decides, what is Good and what is bad, Please clear me.

Humans do in consensus

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

1400 hundred years ago, many believed the sun orbited the earth, how do you know that wasn't what the quran meant?

Please Look at this verse

And the sun runs to a fixed resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Surah Ya Sin, 38)

The Arabic word "mustaqarrin" in the verse refers to a particular place or time. The word “tajree,” translated as “runs,” bears such meanings as “to move, to act swiftly, to move about, to flow.” It appears from the meanings of the words that the Sun will continue in its course in time and space, but that this motion will continue until a specific, predetermined time. The verse " When the Sun is compacted in blackness " (Surat at-Takwir, 1) which appears in descriptions of Doomsday, tells us that such a time will be coming. The specific timing is known only to Allah.
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_100.html

dead one

dead one wrote: »

Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries (infact they aren't pure islamic societies). Have you ever wonder?

Because apostasy is punishable by death maybe?!!!

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why aren't muslim countries the most peaceful countries in the world then?

Firstly because there are no true Muslim countries. In fact the majority of Muslim countries are ruled by puppets propped up by the west.

According to the map on the wikipedia page, the majority of Muslim countires seem to fair better than the US.

irishconvert

bluewolf wrote: »

Because apostasy is punishable by death maybe?!!!

There is a lot of disagreement on that point. I don't believe there is any reference to it in the Qur'an. In fact, the Qur'an states the opposite in Surah Al Baqarah 2:256:

There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance has been made clearly distinct from error. Therefore, whoever renounces ‘Tãghüt’ (forces of Shaitãn) and believes in Allah has grasped the firm hand-hold that will never break. Allah, Whose hand-hold you have grasped, hears all and knows all

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

There is a lot of disagreement on that point. I don't believe there is any reference to it in the Qur'an.

I wouldnt say there is but in some islamic countries it's a fact isn't it. There are plenty of things wrong with some of them just as there are anywhere else.
Reference to islamic countries is not helping his point about them being the most peaceful or anything

irishconvert

bluewolf wrote: »

I wouldnt say there is but in some islamic countries it's a fact isn't it. There are plenty of things wrong with some of them just as there are anywhere else.
Reference to islamic countries is not helping his point about them being the most peaceful or anything

I think he should have said in a true Islamic society, maybe this is what he meant.

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

Are you even listening to me or just repeating rhetoric?

Yes i am seeing, I have no ear to type

bluewolf wrote: »

Humans do in consensus

Alright suppose there is group of men and group of women. No can you tell me. Will Group of Men do Justice with group of women if they decide what is good for Women. Or Will Group of Woman do Justice with group of Men if they decide what is good for Man. The point is Men and women can't decide what is good or bad for them. But it's creator who decide?. Now Question Why creator because he created us, No one know us better than him. I hope you get the point. The man who

Now if i take you as my consensus. Can you tell me what is good and what bad for me as you don't feel me.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

Yes i am seeing, I have no ear to type

So why are you saying I worship desires when I told you the opposite?
Or maybe you are calling me deluded because I am not in your religion?

Alright suppose there is group of men and group of women. No can you tell me. Will Group of Men do Justice with group of women if they decide what is good for Women. Or Will Group of Woman do Justice with group of Men if they decide what is good for Man. The point is Men and women can't decide what is good or bad for them. .

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here
Will a group of people do justice for others? Well we have jury systems don't we? Common laws?
We already have decided what is good and bad

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

Because apostasy is punishable by death maybe?!!!

I think someone has misguided you about Islam. Please be honest with yourself don't follow people, If you believe in reason and logic than don't follow people but read and understand Quran that is pure way to understand

dead one

dead one wrote: »

I think someone has misguided you about Islam. Please be honest with yourself don't follow people, If you believe in reason and logic than don't follow people but read and understand Quran that is pure way to understand

What the quran says is one thing, but you asked why there arent too many atheists in islamic countries and I answered why

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

Answer to your question is very simple. you don't believe any god, than you are god of yourself. It doesn't matter whether you think yourself as god or not.

This doesn't make any sense. If we dont believe in gods, then we cant make ourselves gods, because we dont believe in them.

dead one wrote: »

Why there is God, have you ever wonder? Can please tell me what do think about GHod

I dont really understand you point here. You seem to be coming from the point of view that god exists in everyone opinions, regardless of whether or not they are atheists. I dont believe god exists.

dead one wrote: »

Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries (infact they aren't pure islamic societies). Have you ever wonder? Because Islam provide justice to people. It has solution for all of yours problems. Islam don't need to torture people if you don't believe in Allah.

the rules of the islam religion ensure that its incredibly hard for people to leave it. From early life there is strong indoctrination in islamic schools, so kids are not exactly presented with an equal look at all religions (how many hours are spent each day learning the quran when you are a child). Then you have the marriage rules: muslim men can marry women of the book (christians and jews, I hoe I have that term right), but muslim women cant. Why? Because in islam, men are head of the family and they decide what is taught to the kids. This way a muslim man married to a non muslim can ensure islam is taught to the kids, but a muslim woman in the same situation couldn't. Lastly you have apostasy. Even under the most benign of apostasy rules, you are going to have major obstacles in leaving, just look at apostasy and conversion in Malaysia. Its very easy to point at the lack of converts from islam when islam itself doesn't really allow for conversion to other religions.

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

Please Look at this verse

That in no way contradicts what I said. that verse could equally be said to apply to an geocentric understanding of the solar system. ie the sun orbits the earth.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Firstly because there are no true Muslim countries. In fact the majority of Muslim countries are ruled by puppets propped up by the west.

Which country is closes to being a true muslims country.

irishconvert wrote: »

According to the map on the wikipedia page, the majority of Muslim countires seem to fair better than the US.

But nowhere near as good as most of europe, scandanavia, australasia or canada.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Which country is closes to being a true muslims country.

Sorry but I don't know enough about the various Muslim countries to answer that.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But nowhere near as good as most of europe, scandanavia, australasia or canada.

Why do you think that is?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Sorry but I don't know enough about the various Muslim countries to answer that.

But you know enough to say that the majority are ruled by puppets of the west?

irishconvert wrote: »

Why do you think that is?

Because muslim countries tend to score worse in the criteria listed on the wiki page, eg wars fought, violent crimes, homicides, human rights violations etc. Overall, though, its a lack of personal secularity. Peace comes from the public as a whole (as opposed to the government) being secular (this is not the same as the people as individuals being secular). You loose a lot of those internal conflict problems, citizen distrust and even poor relations with neighbouring countries if people, as a whole, just stopped being bothered by other people doing or believing things that are none of their business.

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

That in no way contradicts what I said. that verse could equally be said to apply to an geocentric understanding of the solar system. ie the sun orbits the earth.

Alright, suppose i agree, Also suppose Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had copy it, Infact i told you he didn't understand how to read and write. Let take another example.

A RED ROSE IN THE SKY: THE ROSETTE NEBULA

When the Heaven shall be cleft asunder, and become rose red, like stained leather. (Surat ar-Rahman, 37)

The Arabic expression translated above as "become rose red, like stained leather" is "verdeten ke eddihani." This term compares an image appearing in the sky to a red rose. This description bears a close similarity to red celestial bodies with a plicate appearance, especially the "Rosette Nebula."http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_106.html

also if you say it is wrong
than

THE MOON'S ORBIT

And We have decreed set phases for the moon, until it ends up looking like an old date branch. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 36:39-40)

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_12.html

There are many things in quran showing quran is from creator.

[Surah 22:46]

"Do they not travel through the land, so that their hearts (and minds) may thus learn wisdom and their ears may thus learn to hear? Truly it is not their eyes that are blind, but their hearts which are in their breasts."

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

This doesn't make any sense. If we dont believe in gods, then we cant make ourselves gods, because we dont believe in them.

Look friend you are not understanding, It is not whether you believe yourself as god or not, It is when you reject existence of God than you reject all sources of reason, that is you have no creator, God didn't created you, creation is one of property of God. when you deny that creation than ultimately you are opposing God. only a god can oppose other God. I think it is very clear whether you assume yourself god or not.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont really understand you point here. You seem to be coming from the point of view that god exists in everyone opinions, regardless of whether or not they are atheists. I dont believe god exists.

Point is even if you ask a child of ten year he will also tell you about God. Do you think that human minds have created these God. You can see God in every aspect of life. Watch documentaries on ocean, even there exist such a creation which no human has ever seen. Can All these strong fact will remove the greatest fact of life, if you said;

I dont believe god exists.

You are fooling your mind even your mind also says "There is God"

Mark Hamill wrote: »

the rules of the islam religion ensure that its incredibly hard for people to leave it. From early life there is strong indoctrination in islamic schools, so kids are not exactly presented with an equal look at all religions (how many hours are spent each day learning the quran when you are a child). Then you have the marriage rules: muslim men can marry women of the book (christians and jews, I hoe I have that term right), but muslim women cant. Why? Because in islam, men are head of the family and they decide what is taught to the kids. This way a muslim man married to a non muslim can ensure islam is taught to the kids, but a muslim woman in the same situation couldn't. Lastly you have apostasy. Even under the most benign of apostasy rules, you are going to have major obstacles in leaving, just look at apostasy and conversion in Malaysia. Its very easy to point at the lack of converts from islam when islam itself doesn't really allow for conversion to other religions.

That's what many people are doing. To understand Islam you have to look life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) not the apostasy and conversion in Malaysia. As i already said there is no single society on earth with establish Islam. Many Muslims countries don't represents Islam. Behonest with yourself if you follow people you will not get the truth.

1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?

Apostates or Renegades are those who decide to leave the religion of Islam. There is a widely prevailing misconception abt this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.
Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.
"As most men are rebellious." (5:49), it is inevitable that there should be apostates even from such a religion of reason and common-sense as Islam. In Verse 5:54 above there is a warning to the Muslims that they should not repeat the history of the Jews, and become so self-satisfied or arrogant as to depart from the spirit of Allah's teaching. If they do, the loss will be their own. Allah's bounty is not confined to one group or section of humanity. He can always raise up people who will follow the true spirit of Islam. That spirit is defined in two ways:
1- They will love Allah Almighty and Allah Almighty will love them.
2- Amongst the Brethren, their attitude will be that of humility, but to wrongdoers they will offer no compromises, and they will always strive and fight for the truth and right. They will know no fear, either physical, or that more insidious form. They are too great in mind to be haunted by any such thought.
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:55 "(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are (No less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)." Here we see Allah Almighty telling Muslims after he warned them from apostates in (5:54) that their real friends are: Allah Almighty, Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, and the good Muslims who keep up with their prayers and charity, and who humbly worship their God.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.
The path to Allah Almighty is always open and Allah Almighty will be your friend as in verse (5:55) above, and he will forgive your sins for you once you repent as in the following verse: "Except for those that repent (Even) after that, And make amends; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:89).
http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

What the quran says is one thing

,
What Quran says, Quran doesn't say which you learn from internet to spread evil against Islam. Is this really honesty. You aren't even honest in answering question than why you think you will honest with yourself.

but you asked why there arent too many atheists in islamic countries and I answered why[/QUOTE]

Your answer is not an honest answer because you tried to misquote quran, do you really think it is honesty. Please see above post Who are apostate in Islam.

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

So why are you saying I worship desires when I told you the opposite?

It is fact which is written in quran,Let me clear you suppose i want to robb someone and i also know that it is order of Allah "be Just". If i robb him than i have worshiped my desires because following Allah's orders is as worshiping him. When you say there is no God, infact you are following no God but your desires/ your hearts/ your science / you reason. Because you don't have enough proof against the existence of God.

bluewolf wrote: »

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here
Will a group of people do justice for others? Well we have jury systems don't we? Common laws?
We already have decided what is good and bad

I am saying you are taking human to decide what is good and what is bad for them. Men can't decide "good" for women as men have no idea what are the feeling of woman. So a women can't desicide what is good for men, as they had no idea what are feeling of men.

virmilitaris

irishconvert wrote: »

We, as Muslims, believe you have to follow the Qur'an. What happens to you if you don't follow these teachings, I cannot tell you. That is up to Allah.

But this is my question. Have to follow the Qur'an why ? Whats the reason to ?

Not just for reward. We do it because it pleases Allah. As Muslims, we submit to the will of Allah.

But why would I want to please Allah ?

virmilitaris

dead one wrote: »

Let us talk to the reason. Who gives you life when you r nothing. What you r eating, enjoying or drinking with your fives scenes is not enough reason to thank him. Your are eyes are the reason with them you see the beauty of world. Isn't it reason. Ask to your

Now can you give me reason, Have you created yourself?

Again, nothing there is a reason to thank him now. If I don't thank him will I not experience these things ?

dead one

dead one wrote: »

When you say there is no God, infact you are following no God but your desires/ your hearts/ your science / you reason. Because you don't have enough proof against the existence of God.

.

I didn't say there was no god. I didn't even say anything close. In fact my reply to irishconvert reminding us which forum we are in said for the purpose of this discussion we assumed your god exists and want reasons for worship.

If you're going to ignore all my posts just to spout the same thing over and over I don't see the point in continuing this discussion

dead one

dead one wrote: »

,

Your answer is not an honest answer because you tried to misquote quran, do you really think it is honesty. Please see above post Who are apostate in Islam.

How can I misquote the quran when I didn't even quote it.
What I SAID was, I'm SURE the quran doesnt proscribe death for apostasy but its implementation in islamic countries is another matter.
Now if you're going to tell us that islamic countries are the most peaceful - well, they aren't. End of.

dead one

virmilitaris wrote: »

Again, nothing there is a reason to thank him now. If I don't thank him will I not experience these things ?

again you ignore the reason, while typing , even if you look at your typing style, it will provide you enough reason, that there is creator who typed and assemble yourself. So why no thanks. So why you r arrogant to accept it.

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

How can I misquote the quran when I didn't even quote it.
What I SAID was, I'm SURE the quran doesnt proscribe death for apostasy but its implementation in islamic countries is another matter.
Now if you're going to tell us that islamic countries are the most peaceful - well, they aren't. End of.

If quran doesn't proscribe than why you r giving the example of people. Like i always said, there is no single society on face of earth with practical Islam. Islamic countries are no excuse. If you want to spot people rather what is written in scripture, i am sure you won't able to reach the truth.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

If quran doesn't proscribe than why you r giving the example of people. Like i always said, there is no single society on face of earth with practical Islam. Islamic countries are no excuse. If you want to spot people rather what is written in scripture, i am sure you won't able to reach the truth.

What do you mean theyre no excuse? You said societies worshiping your god would be peaceful but they aren't more or less peaceful than the rest of us. Or is this a no true scotsman situation?