If No One Had Told You About Allah.... Would You Still Believe In Him?

dead one · 09-03-2011 9:52am

bluewolf wrote: »

What do you mean theyre no excuse? You said societies worshiping your god would be peaceful but they aren't more or less peaceful than the rest of us. Or is this a no true scotsman situation?

Simple and honest view, Most of so called islamic state consist of hypocrites govern by tyrants. They follow no Islam but their desires. Yes it is true they call themselves muslims but infact they aren't following Islam. It is true and real, If you want to view Islam than look the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Quran and his teaching and those who followed Quran, not so called Islamic countries. Simple example you are not blaming the driver for his wrong drive but you are blaming the car which is perfect and excellent to drive.

irishconvert · 09-03-2011 10:09am

virmilitaris wrote: »

But this is my question. Have to follow the Qur'an why ? Whats the reason to ?

But why would I want to please Allah ?

I think by reading all the answers from dead_one and other Muslims in this thread, you already know the answers to these questions.

09-03-2011 11:15am

dead one wrote: »

Simple and honest view, Most of so called islamic state consist of hypocrites govern by tyrants. They follow no Islam but their desires. Yes it is true they call themselves muslims but infact they aren't following Islam. It is true and real, If you want to view Islam than look the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Quran and his teaching and those who followed Quran, not so called Islamic countries. Simple example you are not blaming the driver for his wrong drive but you are blaming the car which is perfect and excellent to drive.

Dead one, we need to have a review here.
You said:
Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries . Have you ever wonder?

I said:
because apostasy is punishable by death in those countries

Now you are talking about how they don't follow islam and how I'm "blaming" the "car".
That might all be true, but it has no bearing on your original question.
So if you want to drop that question as pointless, I would be more than happy to move on

the_syco · 09-03-2011 11:38am

dead one wrote: »

That's what many people are doing. To understand Islam you have to look life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

The Dude was an excellent strategist who fought well on the battlefield, and acted civilly towards his enemy, his captors, and his captives.

dead one wrote: »

Because you don't have enough proof against the existence of God.

Because you have no proof of the existence of your God. Muhammad may have existed, but for him to be a god, nay.

dead one · 09-03-2011 12:11pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Dead one, we need to have a review here.
You said:
Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries . Have you ever wonder?

I said:
because apostasy is punishable by death in those countries

Now you are talking about how they don't follow islam and how I'm "blaming" the "car".
That might all be true, but it has no bearing on your original question.
So if you want to drop that question as pointless, I would be more than happy to move on

yes and thanks i understand what you are saying but i am also trying to convey that Islamic Countries are not following Perfect Islamic rule. They are mixed societies inspired with different culture. Most of these countries are governed by dictators.

There is a widely prevailing misconception abt this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.

i am clearing the misconception.

09-03-2011 12:22pm

dead one wrote: »

yes and thanks i understand what you are saying but i am also trying to convey that Islamic Countries are not following Perfect Islamic rule. They are mixed societies inspired with different culture. Most of these countries are governed by dictators.

i am clearing the misconception.

Ok grand

dead one · 09-03-2011 12:28pm

the_syco wrote: »

The Dude was an excellent strategist who fought well on the battlefield, and acted civilly towards his enemy, his captors, and his captives.

Fought well, what do you mean/, Can you fight with 10 Men at time.
can 300 with no arm fight with 1000 fully armed.

the_syco wrote: »

Because you have no proof of the existence of your God. Muhammad may have existed, but for him to be a god, nay.

Your existence is greatest proof of God. Now tell how you existed when you r nothing.when the world had not been born, then there was only the Lord himself. If this world of possibilities had not been engendered, then too there would have been only the Lord himself. Thus my existence, as it manifested itself, The only proof of God.

09-03-2011 1:02pm

dead one wrote:

Your existence is greatest proof of God. Now tell how you existed when you r nothing.when the world had not been born, then there was only the Lord himself. If this world of possibilities had not been engendered, then too there would have been only the Lord himself. Thus my existence, as it manifested itself, The only proof of God.

I'm aware of what forum we're in so I might as well be careful here, but that is not any good logic.

If we don't know what sparked the existence of the universe, that means nothing other than "we dont know". It is not evidence FOR anything.
In addition, even if it WERE evidence for the existence of A god, which it isn't, it does not mean it is evidence for YOUR god - there are a number of theistic beliefs out there and hundreds of gods.

Talking about evidence when it comes to these beliefs is silly - it's faith and either you believe it or you dont. Same goes for a number of my own beliefs.

Saying that people don't have any evidence against it gets us nowhere, and vice versa.

Mark Hamill · 09-03-2011 1:11pm

dead one wrote: »

Alright, suppose i agree, Also suppose Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had copy it, Infact i told you he didn't understand how to read and write. Let take another example.

I never said Mohammad copied anything, just that the explanation of the orbits is unspecific enough that it could also apply to a geocentric understanding of the universe (everything orbits the earth).

dead one wrote: »

A RED ROSE IN THE SKY: THE ROSETTE NEBULA
When the Heaven shall be cleft asunder, and become rose red, like stained leather. (Surat ar-Rahman, 37)

Confirmational bias, no? Nebulas can come in many colours : green, blue, brown, grey etc, , not to mention that the Rosette Nebula is a place where stars are formed due to the great compressive forces from stellar winds not due to a cleavage of the heavens. Also, the interpretation of the quote seems baffling. It says that the heaven will become rose red (the colour), not that a red rose will appear. It seems like this is a case of using modern knowledge and trying to shoehorn it into poetic language in the quran.

dead one wrote: »

THE MOON'S ORBIT

Again, I think it would have been common knowledge that the moon has phases, sailors would have known, as well as temple builders who lived long before Muhammad (Newgrange, built 5000 years ago, lines up with the winter solstice every year, so they must have known about lunar movements). This doesn't show any new knowledge gained from the quran, its simply states allah as the reason for these natural phenomena, which is not the point you are trying to make.

Mark Hamill · 09-03-2011 1:23pm

dead one wrote: »

Look friend you are not understanding, It is not whether you believe yourself as god or not, It is when you reject existence of God than you reject all sources of reason, that is you have no creator, God didn't created you, creation is one of property of God. when you deny that creation than ultimately you are opposing God. only a god can oppose other God. I think it is very clear whether you assume yourself god or not.

No its not, not at all. If we dont believe in gods, then we also dont believe that only a god can oppose another god. This just comes across as you trying to label or box in atheists in such a way as to disregard what they say. We dont believe in gods, we dont believe we are gods,we dont act like we are gods ,we dont believe we created oursleves.

dead one wrote: »

Point is even if you ask a child of ten year he will also tell you about God. Do you think that human minds have created these God. You can see God in every aspect of life. Watch documentaries on ocean, even there exist such a creation which no human has ever seen. Can All these strong fact will remove the greatest fact of life, if you said;

If you ask a ten year old about santa, he will tell you about santa, does this mean santa exists? Ten year olds aren't great at explaining reality. As for the rest, yes I believe that human minds created god and that the oceans and nature aren't indicative of his existence. Simply restating your believe that they are isn't a very strong argument.

dead one wrote: »

You are fooling your mind even your mind also says "There is God"

You dont understand gods mind, how can you say you understand mine? Are you sure this isn't just wishful thinking? Would it give you pause to believe that I actually and honestly dont believe in god at all?

dead one wrote: »

That's what many people are doing. To understand Islam you have to look life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) not the apostasy and conversion in Malaysia. As i already said there is no single society on earth with establish Islam. Many Muslims countries don't represents Islam. Behonest with yourself if you follow people you will not get the truth.

If the countries where the vast majority of people are muslims and the rules of the land come from the quran cant get it right, doesn't that say something about the quran?

Mark Hamill · 09-03-2011 1:32pm

dead one wrote: »

again you ignore the reason, while typing , even if you look at your typing style, it will provide you enough reason, that there is creator who typed and assemble yourself. So why no thanks. So why you r arrogant to accept it.

Why are you so arrogant as to assume that everything in the universe is god perfectly designing it for you?

dead one wrote: »

If quran doesn't proscribe than why you r giving the example of people. Like i always said, there is no single society on face of earth with practical Islam. Islamic countries are no excuse. If you want to spot people rather what is written in scripture, i am sure you won't able to reach the truth.

Why isn't there a single society with practical islam? Why is it so hard for such a society to exist, if its based on a perfect book and so many people in so many countries believe in it?

dead one wrote: »

Simple and honest view, Most of so called islamic state consist of hypocrites govern by tyrants. They follow no Islam but their desires. Yes it is true they call themselves muslims but infact they aren't following Islam. It is true and real, If you want to view Islam than look the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Quran and his teaching and those who followed Quran, not so called Islamic countries. Simple example you are not blaming the driver for his wrong drive but you are blaming the car which is perfect and excellent to drive.

What of the states that aren't governed by hypocritical tyrants? Why have they failed?

irishconvert wrote: »

I think by reading all the answers from dead_one and other Muslims in this thread, you already know the answers to these questions.

They dont add up for two reasons:
Firstly, humans generally give thanks because we recognise the effort someone has expended in doing something for us (a thanks is more sincere for a harder got present), but for god, his creation of the universe expended no effort, he willed it and it happened, so its not like it was any trouble for him to do it.
Secondly, if all of this universe was created for us and god expects us to live our lives here without him doing everything for us, then should we waste so much of our lives showing our thanks to god? Would the time not be better spent living, or doing whatever it is god actually wants us to do? (which is not likely to be worship him, as what use is worship to a god?)

Mark Hamill · 09-03-2011 1:34pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Dead one, we need to have a review here.
You said:
Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries . Have you ever wonder?

I said:
because apostasy is punishable by death in those countries

Now you are talking about how they don't follow islam and how I'm "blaming" the "car".
That might all be true, but it has no bearing on your original question.
So if you want to drop that question as pointless, I would be more than happy to move on

He has answered his own question. The reason that there are less atheists in islamic countries is because they are not true islamic countries. However, does this imply that there would be more atheists in a hypothetical true islamic countries?

Mark Hamill · 09-03-2011 1:40pm

dead one wrote: »

Your existence is greatest proof of God. Now tell how you existed when you r nothing.when the world had not been born, then there was only the Lord himself. If this world of possibilities had not been engendered, then too there would have been only the Lord himself. Thus my existence, as it manifested itself, The only proof of God.

The fundamnetal problem with this, assuming that you take it as evidence for a god, is that it by no means implies your god. Christains say the same thing for their gods, jews for theirs, hindus for theirs etc.
Of course, as it is an argument from ignorance (we dont know something => god did it) we dont have to take it as evidence for anything.

the_syco · 09-03-2011 1:48pm

dead one wrote: »

Fought well, what do you mean/, Can you fight with 10 Men at time.
can 300 with no arm fight with 1000 fully armed.

Fought well as in his strategies were good. He was compassionate to his captives, and civil to his captors.

dead one wrote: »

Your existence is greatest proof of God. Now tell how you existed when you r nothing.when the world had not been born, then there was only the Lord himself. If this world of possibilities had not been engendered, then too there would have been only the Lord himself. Thus my existence, as it manifested itself, The only proof of God.

I've reread this twice. Can you just quote the Quran, or if someone understands the chap, if they could explain what he said? I acknowledge "attack the post, not the poster" rule, but I do not understand his grammer

irishconvert · 09-03-2011 1:52pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

They dont add up for two reasons:
Firstly, humans generally give thanks because we recognise the effort someone has expended in doing something for us (a thanks is more sincere for a harder got present), but for god, his creation of the universe expended no effort, he willed it and it happened, so its not like it was any trouble for him to do it.
Secondly, if all of this universe was created for us and god expects us to live our lives here without him doing everything for us, then should we waste so much of our lives showing our thanks to god? Would the time not be better spent living, or doing whatever it is god actually wants us to do? (which is not likely to be worship him, as what use is worship to a god?)

God has told us what he wants us to do in order to give thanks to him, i.e. pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan, give charity to the poor and do the pilgrimage to Hajj at least once in a lifetime. Coming from the point of view of someone who believes God exists, this is not a lot to expect to show gratitude to the creator. For someone who doesn't believe in God, sure it probably does seem pointless.

Mark Hamill · 09-03-2011 2:08pm

irishconvert wrote: »

God has told us what he wants us to do in order to give thanks to him, i.e. pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan, give charity to the poor and do the pilgrimage to Hajj at least once in a lifetime. Coming from the point of view of someone who believes God exists, this is not a lot to expect to show gratitude to the creator. For someone who doesn't believe in God, sure it probably does seem pointless.

It seems pointless unless the point is to do it (ie the point of living). Think about it, do this thanking and praising and you get into heaven, dont and its off to hell. Therefore, these 4 things must be the point of existence, as nothing else you do, how much money you make, how many kids you have, how happy you can say you are, will effect of you get into heaven. But why would it matter to god if we do these things or not?

You can say I'm being too cynical, but when I look at this, I dont see how any benefit god can get from these, and, if its a test, the god has skewed the results by telling us of the extreme rewards and punishments. When I look at it, I see that those that get most (only) benefit from the praising are the religious leaders (particularly those that rule countries), who cement their powerbase by convincing people that they need to listen to them to truly understand what god wants, religious leaders who, by your own admission, are hypocritical tyrant puppets propped up by the west.

irishconvert · 09-03-2011 3:35pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

It seems pointless unless the point is to do it (ie the point of living). Think about it, do this thanking and praising and you get into heaven, dont and its off to hell. Therefore, these 4 things must be the point of existence, as nothing else you do, how much money you make, how many kids you have, how happy you can say you are, will effect of you get into heaven. But why would it matter to god if we do these things or not?

You've got the point I think! The point is that this life is only temporary, a transitionary existance. The purpose of this life is to live a good life in preparation for the next where we will be awarded accordingly. The difference between non-believers (athiests) and Muslims is that non-believers live for this life whereas Muslims live this life to please Allah and prepare for the next. You might think this is a waste of a life becuase you think once you die, that's it game over. But for us, when we die, it is just the beginning.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You can say I'm being too cynical, but when I look at this, I dont see how any benefit god can get from these, and, if its a test, the god has skewed the results by telling us of the extreme rewards and punishments.

Nobody knows what benefit Allah gets from it, or why he set these rules/tests. We will find out someday God willing.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

When I look at it, I see that those that get most (only) benefit from the praising are the religious leaders (particularly those that rule countries), who cement their powerbase by convincing people that they need to listen to them to truly understand what god wants, religious leaders who, by your own admission, are hypocritical tyrant puppets propped up by the west.

Sorry, I don't understand your point here.

Mark Hamill · 09-03-2011 4:45pm

irishconvert wrote: »

You've got the point I think! The point is that this life is only temporary, a transitionary existance. The purpose of this life is to live a good life in preparation for the next where we will be awarded accordingly. The difference between non-believers (athiests) and Muslims is that non-believers live for this life whereas Muslims live this life to please Allah and prepare for the next. You might think this is a waste of a life becuase you think once you die, that's it game over. But for us, when we die, it is just the beginning.

But this is a great way for people in power to get less fortunate people to stop complaining about their problems in this life, tell them there is something better coming along. It seems to me, that the most immediate benefit for this goes to the leaders whose power over the people is based on this, on people accepting their bad lot in life and going along with what the leader says they should do to satisfy their god. How do you know you are pleasing allah and not just pleasing the religious leaders? Why should allah be pleased that some people have hard lives? Why is he displeased that some people just get on with their lives without thanking him all the time?

irishconvert wrote: »

Nobody knows what benefit Allah gets from it, or why he set these rules/tests. We will find out someday God willing.

How do you know he has even set the rules/tests?

irishconvert wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand your point here.

Its what I've said in the rest of this post: why do you believe the rules of your religion, the ones you cant explain, come from allah and not from the religious leaders who gain the most immediate power from them?

Improbable · 09-03-2011 9:29pm

The root cause of such differences in belief. Belief without evidence and belief because of evidence. That in itself leads to a question about what can be/should be accepted as evidence. I think that evidence should only be that which can be reliably reproduced under controlled conditions and/or has a basis in a reasonable argument, not one which is based off personal beliefs, whether they be your own beliefs or someone else's beliefs.

The problem then is that when people take up a position which is not supported or refuted by evidence, that position becomes unassailable under the parlance of evidence or reason. Belief/non-belief in the existence of a god is such a position because the concept is so abstract that it could mean almost anything. Religion is NOT such a position because while the religious may consider their holy texts to be the word of god, people who do not belong to that religion do not. Thus it is unassailable in the eyes of the religious unless they're willing to consider the possibility that it is not the word of god. Until that happens, the merits of religious belief and religious acts cannot be debated in any sort of meaningful way.

virmilitaris · 10-03-2011 4:20am

dead one wrote: »

again you ignore the reason, while typing , even if you look at your typing style, it will provide you enough reason, that there is creator who typed and assemble yourself. So why no thanks. So why you r arrogant to accept it.

I don't why know I continually have to repeat myself but lets try it one more time.

I accept his existence. I accept everything you say about him.

Now give me a reason to follow the Quran and to give thanks to him. Is it so difficult ?

virmilitaris · 10-03-2011 4:23am

irishconvert wrote: »

I think by reading all the answers from dead_one and other Muslims in this thread, you already know the answers to these questions.

No I really don't. No one has told me why I should do it. What benefit is in it for me, what do I lose if I don't do it.

Dead one has told me how Allah created me and the Universe. Ok, but I don't see why that requires me to give thanks since it already exists.

In other words, what has he done for me lately ? What will I lose if I don't follow him ? What will he do for me if I do follow him ?

dead one · 10-03-2011 6:01am

virmilitaris wrote: »

I don't why know I continually have to repeat myself but lets try it one more time.

I accept his existence. I accept everything you say about him.

Now give me a reason to follow the Quran and to give thanks to him. Is it so difficult ?

The Qur'aan was revealed by Allah, may He be glorified, as a law and a reference as to what is permissible and prohibited, what is commanded and forbidden, for people to follow, so that they obey its commands and abide by its prohibitions, take what it allows as permissible and take what it prohibits as forbidden. You can't create justice on earth unless you follow the commandment of God. If the whole world truly start following Quran than the world will be more than Heaven. I know you are talking that why you should follow Quran alone but i am not talking that some people should follow Quran. I am talking about a society as whole. Today world is suffering with crisis, One part is rich and other Part is poor, The only solution to the world if they wish to create a peaceful society is Quran.

That's the main reason you should follow Quran and whole world should follow Quran. If you truly follow quran than it is 100% sure you will not be "unjust".

Now tell reason why there is no peace in World.

dead one · 10-03-2011 7:08am

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm aware of what forum we're in so I might as well be careful here, but that is not any good logic.
If we don't know what sparked the existence of the universe, that means nothing other than "we dont know".

We don't know what does it me, You pretend that you don't know "infact every grain of sand is reflecting the grace of lord almighty. Yes i agree with you we don't have direct communication with God but God chooses his prophet (people among the people to communicate) and every Prophet that God use is symbol of Peace and Justice. Now I am giving you why God don't directly communicate with people.
The eyesight cannot reach Him and He can reach the vision (power of seeing).
Translation of: Ayah 113, Surat AlAn'am.
no one can see Allah in this Life however in the Other Life humans will be in another creation. In the Qur'an: "Faces that Day are beaming, looking towards their God." Translation of Lines 22-23 Surat AlQiyamah.

bluewolf wrote: »

It is not evidence FOR anything.
In addition, even if it WERE evidence for the existence of A god, which it isn't, it does not mean it is evidence for YOUR god - there are a number of theistic beliefs out there and hundreds of gods.

Like i always said, see things with your heart, feel them it will give you the essence of Lord Almighty.

Rumi wrote:

“Everyone sees the unseen in proportion to the clarity of his heart, and that depends upon how much he has polished it. Whoever has polished it more sees more - more unseen forms become manifest to him.”

bluewolf wrote: »

Talking about evidence when it comes to these beliefs is silly - it's faith and either you believe it or you dont. Same goes for a number of my own beliefs.

Alright what is wrong if you believe There is God and God reveals himself through his messengers, Like Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, What is silly in believing it and what is amazing if you don't believe in it.

dead one · 10-03-2011 7:32am

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I never said Mohammad copied anything, just that the explanation of the orbits is unspecific enough that it could also apply to a geocentric understanding of the universe (everything orbits the earth).

Can an illiterate man, 1400 ago understand what is geometry or what is calculus, Who taught geocentric understanding to an illiterate man in the deserts of Arabia with bunch of ignorant people who killed their daughters in fear of hunger.
Can i ask one thing, 1400 year ago when there was no science (i m talking about modern science). How Prophet Muhammad chooses such words if it isn't from God. Can you produce such thing or write a book on your behalf which show some is commanding you.

Please give me reason, the verse which i am presenting, How you proved it is from Muhammad not God.

This is chapter 112, which reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”.

The structure of this verse clearly shows that these words are addressing to Muhammad who was first addressee and than all the people of world. It doesn't show that Muhammad (pbuh) is saying, people should believe in him.

SuzieDsouza · 10-03-2011 7:38am

I rather believe in Guru, who shows you the right path to gain knowledge in the world, the path to the extreme god.

dead one · 10-03-2011 7:57am

Mark Hamill wrote: »

No its not, not at all. If we dont believe in gods, then we also dont believe that only a god can oppose another god. This just comes across as you trying to label or box in atheists in such a way as to disregard what they say. We dont believe in gods, we dont believe we are gods,we dont act like we are gods ,we dont believe we created oursleves.

The red color shows, such argument is used by people who are in state of denial. Even if you deny all of your life which is 60 or 70 years. Death will tell you there is lord who created you from nothing and he will create you again.

who originates Creation then repeats it and who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Say "Bring forth your argument if ye are telling the truth!"
Quran-27:64

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You dont understand gods mind, how can you say you understand mine? Are you sure this isn't just wishful thinking? Would it give you pause to believe that I actually and honestly dont believe in god at all?

God's mind is your existence or creation which is pure fact, Your mind is what you create in you imagine or what you type or assemble or how you choose thing in your daily life. Now honestly tell me How you understand your mind as well God's mind

virmilitaris · 10-03-2011 8:29am

dead one wrote: »

That's the main reason you should follow Quran and whole world should follow Quran. If you truly follow quran than it is 100% sure you will not be "unjust".

Now tell reason why there is no peace in World.

Who says I want to be just ? What motivation is there for me to be just ?

You continue to tell me about how the Quran will affect me which will be of benefit to society. You haven't told me what benefit it will have for me.

dead one · 10-03-2011 8:31am

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why are you so arrogant as to assume that everything in the universe is god perfectly designing it for you?

Arrogance come when people dont' accept the truth. So we are not in arrogance rather you are arrogant to accept the greatest truth of life ie God. Now tell which is greater arrogance, arrogance of assumption or arrogance of acceptance. infact You will see people are more arrogant to accept the truth rather assume. Why people don't accept truth because of pride in their hearts. I guess your heart is also very proud not to accept God as it is god of itself.

The simple answer to you is what if you don't realize.

Indeed, those who dispute concerning the signs of Allah without [any] authority having come to them - there is not within their breasts except pride, [the extent of] which they cannot reach. So seek refuge in Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Seeing.(quran 40:56)

Mark Hamill wrote: »

everything in the universe is god perfectly designing it for you?

. I don't believe every things as God but i believe everything is from God.

The creation of the heavens and earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of the people do not know.(40:57

And not equal are the blind and the seeing, nor are those who believe and do righteous deeds and the evildoer. Little do you remember.(40:58

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why isn't there a single society with practical islam? Why is it so hard for such a society to exist, if its based on a perfect book and so many people in so many countries believe in it?

Reason is people have abandoned Islam and Quran. Why it is hard for such a society to exist because people are more hypocrite in nature to accept such a society. Suppose those who are feeding themselves on the blood of poor they will always oppose such a society. Those who are living a luxurious life they will not accept to leave their luxuries for the sake of other people etc. Second is religions, different man made religion always come in the way of such society. Christian will not accept Jesus as messenger of God But Prophet Muhammad created that society on earth in state of Madina and his followers, That societies which were created by prophet Muhammad and his follower are pure societies on earth with no injustice. That is also one purpose to follow messenger. To create peace on earth.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What of the states that aren't governed by hypocritical tyrants? Why have they failed?

That state in which Quran is Law as guidance. Why they have failed because people fail to attach them self to Quran and his messenger rather to the world and worldly gains and also we muslim believe that state will established on earth again before judgment.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

..........(which is not likely to be worship him, as what use is worship to a god?)

What do you under by the term "worship to a god"

dead one · 10-03-2011 8:44am

the_syco wrote: »

Fought well as in his strategies were good. He was compassionate to his captives, and civil to his captors.

What will be your strategy if you are commander of 300 with six swords against fully equipped armed force of 1000. Please explain how your strategy works

the_syco wrote: »

I've reread this twice. Can you just quote the Quran, or if someone understands the chap, if they could explain what he said? I acknowledge "attack the post, not the poster" rule, but I do not understand his grammer

Simple point to understand, why you have existence? Can you explain?

dead one · 10-03-2011 8:55am

virmilitaris wrote: »

Who says I want to be just ? What motivation is there for me to be just ?

You continue to tell me about how the Quran will affect me which will be of benefit to society. You haven't told me what benefit it will have for me.

If your existence is "source of benefit" to other than it is sure you have benefited yourself. Your life will be satisfied by working in the way of Allah. The Quran is a healing for the body and soul. Whenever life becomes hard and complicated the Light of the Quran will always brighten the way. It will be a source of solace and tranquility. It will be a defender to you when you are powerless and in need. It will be source of guidance in every moment of your life and your will die in satisfaction. There are many things how you life will be changed if you follow quran.

dead one · 10-03-2011 9:00am

Mark Hamill wrote: »

He has answered his own question. The reason that there are less atheists in islamic countries is because they are not true islamic countries. However, does this imply that there would be more atheists in a hypothetical true islamic countries?

you misunderstood me, infact once you choose islam , it is for sure how bad you may be, you will not leave faith in Islam. Even if you ask a muslim who is so corrupt and evil in his work to leave his faith or become atheist or christian etc he will not accept your invitation.
because.
(Surah No.3 Verse 102)
O you who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.

10-03-2011 9:06am

dead one wrote: »

Alright what is wrong if you believe There is God and God reveals himself through his messengers, Like Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, What is silly in believing it and what is amazing if you don't believe in it.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I said it is silly to try and bring evidence into it because it's a faith issue.
Short of a miracle occurring which can be examined, there is nothing either side can do to bring "evidence" the other would accept.

10-03-2011 9:07am

dead one wrote: »

What will be your strategy if you are commander of 300 with six swords against fully equipped armed force of 1000. Please explain how your strategy works

He was complimenting your prophet, why are you going on about this?

virmilitaris · 10-03-2011 9:13am

dead one wrote: »

If your existence is "source of benefit" to other than it is sure you have benefited yourself. Your life will be satisfied by working in the way of Allah.

How ?

I smoke, drink and enjoy all manners of food which I will safely assume are forbidden by the Quran. I enjoy the company of scantly clad young women and I like it that way.

Why would my life be satisfied giving up these things which make me happy ?

The Quran is a healing for the body and soul.

How ? Diet ?

Whenever life becomes hard and complicated the Light of the Quran will always brighten the way.

I've read it and I don't agree.

It will be a source of solace and tranquility.

How ?

It will be a defender to you when you are powerless and in need. It will be source of guidance in every moment of your life and your will die in satisfaction. There are many things how you life will be changed if you follow quran.

And you still have not given me a reason to do so.

You have made promises of benefits to my health which are easily within reach by other means.

You have made promises of happiness which are simply untrue.

And most of all, you haven't made a claim for the benefit of the worship / giving thanks itself which is what is been asked.

Imagine I'm a potential convert. I already believe in your gods existence. Now tell me why to worship him / give thanks to him. What's in it for me ?

irishconvert · 10-03-2011 11:17am

virmilitaris wrote: »

No I really don't. No one has told me why I should do it. What benefit is in it for me, what do I lose if I don't do it.

Dead one has told me how Allah created me and the Universe. Ok, but I don't see why that requires me to give thanks since it already exists.

In other words, what has he done for me lately ? What will I lose if I don't follow him ? What will he do for me if I do follow him ?

He has given you eyes to see with, ears to hear with, a tongue to taste all the wonderful foods he has provided for us, he has given you legs to walk, run, play sport. The list is endless. You have so much to be thankful to your creator for.

If you don't live your life according to the rules and guidance laid down by Allah, most likely there will be no consequences in this life but in the hearafter you will be questioned and rewarded/punished accordingly.

Is that the answer you were after?

virmilitaris · 10-03-2011 11:45am

irishconvert wrote: »

He has given you eyes to see with, ears to hear with, a tongue to taste all the wonderful foods he has provided for us, he has given you legs to walk, run, play sport. The list is endless. You have so much to be thankful to your creator for.

And I told you I accept all that. But I have that regardless of whether I worship or not.

My parents did a lot for me too but I'm not going to spend my life worshiping them for it.

By the way it's not really important but no, I can't eat all the wonderful food because a lot of it is off-limits. In fact most of my current diet would be off-limits.

If you don't live your life according to the rules and guidance laid down by Allah, most likely there will be no consequences in this life but in the hearafter you will be questioned and rewarded/punished accordingly.

What kind of reward ? What kind of punishment ?

Maybe we just have a communication issue.

Taking into account Allah is the one true God, Muhammad is his messenger and everything that implies. I still don't see a reason to worship him.

The main obstacle to me may not be belief itself but rather why worship a dety once belief is established.

I'm not asking you for proof of who Allah is or his existence. I accept both here. Rather I'm asking what reasons a believer has to worship Allah. I don't see any that appeal to me so far.

Mark Hamill · 10-03-2011 1:13pm

dead one wrote: »

Can an illiterate man, 1400 ago understand what is geometry or what is calculus, Who taught geocentric understanding to an illiterate man in the deserts of Arabia with bunch of ignorant people who killed their daughters in fear of hunger.
Can i ask one thing, 1400 year ago when there was no science (i m talking about modern science). How Prophet Muhammad chooses such words if it isn't from God. Can you produce such thing or write a book on your behalf which show some is commanding you.

You are confusing geocentric with geometric. The description of the universe according to the quran fits with a geocentric idea of the uinverse, ie that the earth is at the centre (geo = earth, centric meaning centre) and the sun and moon orbit it. This understanding is not based on any maths, but simply by observing that the sun and the moon seem to move across the sky in the saem orbit, but on oppsoite sides.

dead one wrote: »

Please give me reason, the verse which i am presenting, How you proved it is from Muhammad not God.

This is chapter 112, which reads:“ In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad), He is God, the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone”.

The structure of this verse clearly shows that these words are addressing to Muhammad who was first addressee and than all the people of world. It doesn't show that Muhammad (pbuh) is saying, people should believe in him.

Every single religion has texts that are written as if they are from god. I fail to see what is so hard for that particular piece to been written in the third person by Muhammad when so many other religious texts were.

Mark Hamill · 10-03-2011 1:18pm

dead one wrote: »

The red color shows, such argument is used by people who are in state of denial. Even if you deny all of your life which is 60 or 70 years. Death will tell you there is lord who created you from nothing and he will create you again.

who originates Creation then repeats it and who gives you sustenance from heaven and earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Say "Bring forth your argument if ye are telling the truth!"
Quran-27:64

You are still straying into impossible emotive-based assertions. You are desperate for us atheists to be in denial, desperate that we somewhere deep down believe in but for some reason reject god. We dont. You dont know our minds, and in my mind, there is no believe. Why is that so hard for you to accept? That some people just honestly dont believe what you believe?

dead one wrote: »

God's mind is your existence or creation which is pure fact, Your mind is what you create in you imagine or what you type or assemble or how you choose thing in your daily life. Now honestly tell me How you understand your mind as well God's mind

I dont believe in god, so I dont believe in a mind of god to understand. Tell me, seeing as you cant possibly understand gods mind, how do you recognise it? How can you tell the difference between gods mind and anyone else's?

Mark Hamill · 10-03-2011 1:27pm

dead one wrote: »

you misunderstood me, infact once you choose islam , it is for sure how bad you may be, you will not leave faith in Islam. Even if you ask a muslim who is so corrupt and evil in his work to leave his faith or become atheist or christian etc he will not accept your invitation.
because.

Well actually, he is unlikely to accept my invitation because, as you claimed, islamic countries are not true islamic countries and so dont allow conversion because of their laws on apostasy, not to mention the childhood indoctrination they get which will make conversion pretty hard anyway. If there was no islam to atheist conversion, then there would be no such thing as apostasy.
Incidentally, are you accusing christians and atheists as being more evil and corrupt than a muslim could ever get?

dead one wrote: »

(Surah No.3 Verse 102)
O you who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.

Is it all that surprising that more people dont convert from islam, when there are threats such as these? I thought there was no compulsion in islam, how is this surah not compulsion?

Hobbes · 10-03-2011 2:46pm

Was my earlier post hard to understand or something? If the tone continues the way it is I will be locking the thread.

Mark Hamill · 10-03-2011 4:11pm

Hobbes wrote: »

Was my earlier post hard to understand or something? If the tone continues the way it is I will be locking the thread.

What tone? What are you talking about?

dj357 · 10-03-2011 4:35pm

I once again apologise for any offence caused by earlier comments but as a non-believer I humbly ask any Muslims in the audience, not in defence of the religion or by way of defending your faith, and in no way intending to breach forum rules or cause any offence: How do Muslims interpret the messages in passages such as those below? Is there a difference between how you interpret them and how other Muslims interpret them? Just to ensure that no one misconstrues this question as any kind of an attack or derailment, I ask this question as it is linked to the OP in that how people interpret Allah's supposed intervention in the form of the Qu'ran is important to understand how people may interpret further interventions that were mentioned earlier to be necessary for one to come to knowledge of Allah in the absence of prior knowledge and in the absence of exposure to his current interventions.

Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10

If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they'd understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30

I'd also like to point out that virmilitaris' constant questioning is identical to the behaviour which got me banned (in that dead one can be seen to be being forced to defend his faith from attack, in the form of searching questions) so I would recommend toning it down, from personal experience.

Mark Hamill · 10-03-2011 4:53pm

dj357 wrote: »

I'd also like to point out that virmilitaris' constant questioning is identical to the behaviour which got me banned (in that dead one can be seen to be being forced to defend his faith from attack, in the form of searching questions) so I would recommend toning it down, from personal experience.

Regardless of what happened to you, virmilitaris is not attacking anyone. Asking follow up questions because the first answer you get was not sufficient is not an attack, if it was then every single thread on this whole website would be two posts long.

dj357 · 10-03-2011 4:57pm

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Regardless of what happened to you, virmilitaris is not attacking anyone. Asking follow up questions because the first answer you get was not sufficient is not an attack, if it was then every single thread on this whole website would be two posts long.

I didn't say that I was of that opinion or that I would agree with such an opinion, merely pointing out that if my initial question was seen to be antagonistic and required someone of the Muslim faith to have to "defend their faith from attack" then so too could virmilitaris' repeated questioning be seen in such a light. I do not see it as such, nor would I wish it to be seen as such.

irishconvert · 10-03-2011 5:44pm

dj357 wrote: »

I once again apologise for any offence caused by earlier comments but as a non-believer I humbly ask any Muslims in the audience, not in defence of the religion or by way of defending your faith, and in no way intending to breach forum rules or cause any offence: How do Muslims interpret the messages in passages such as those below? .

Hi,

I'm not being a smart arse, but can you please go and read the full verses, not just selected one line cherry picked quotes and you might have a better idea of the true meaning. If you still don't understand come back here and we'll be happy to explain. Use this site:

http://al-quraan.org/

Regards,
IrishConvert.

hivizman · 10-03-2011 5:46pm

dj357 wrote: »

I once again apologise for any offence caused by earlier comments but as a non-believer I humbly ask any Muslims in the audience, not in defence of the religion or by way of defending your faith, and in no way intending to breach forum rules or cause any offence: How do Muslims interpret the messages in passages such as those below? Is there a difference between how you interpret them and how other Muslims interpret them? Just to ensure that no one misconstrues this question as any kind of an attack or derailment, I ask this question as it is linked to the OP in that how people interpret Allah's supposed intervention in the form of the Qu'ran is important to understand how people may interpret further interventions that were mentioned earlier to be necessary for one to come to knowledge of Allah in the absence of prior knowledge and in the absence of exposure to his current interventions.

Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10

If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they'd understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30

The verses quoted above appear to follow the translation offered by The Skeptic's Annotated Qur'an. This is not widely recognised as an authoritative translation of the meaning of the Qur'an, and looking at the original arabic text and standard translations such as those of Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, Arberry and Sahih International (all of these are available in parallel translations verse-by-verse on the Quranic Arabic Corpus website), I would suggest that the quoted translations exaggerate, even distort, the meaning of the arabic text.

Here are the translations from Surah al-Baqarah provided by Tarif Khalidi in the new Penguin translation of the Qur'an (2008):

2:6-7 - "As for the unbelievers, it is all the same if you warn or do not warn them: they will not believe. God has sealed up their hearts, their hearing and their vision with a shroud, and terrible punishment awaits them." [The arabic text has "[I]'azimun[/I]", which is probably better translated just as "great" rather than "terrible".]

2:10 - "Sickness abides in their hearts and God increases their malady. A painful punishment awaits them for the lies they uttered." [This time, the adjective describing "punishment" is "aleemun", for which "painful" is an apt translation.]

2:23-24 - "If you doubt what We revealed to Our servant, bring forth one sura like it. And summon your witnesses, any other than God, if you are truthful. But if you do not, and surely you will not, beware of the Fire whose fuel is mankind and stones, made ready for the unbelievers."

2:30 - "And remember when God said to the angels: 'I shall appoint a deputy on earth,' and they answered: 'Will you place therein one who sows discord and sheds blood while we chant Your praises and proclaim Your holiness?' God said: 'I know what you do not."

As always, context is important. Surah al-Baqarah begins with a tribute to the Qur'an: "Behold the Book! No trace of doubt in it. A guide to the pious." Those who follow the revelation of the Qur'an are described as "the truly saved". On the other hand, those who disbelieve (the arabic word is a grammatical form of the "k-f-r" root that implies a conscious rejection of the message of the Qur'an) are doomed to the Hellfire. The theology here is one of predestination - Allah has already predetermined who will believe and who will not believe. This is one of the aspects of Islam that I have a lot of difficulty with - these verses don't just imply foreknowledge of who will accept the message of Islam and who will reject it, but suggest agency on the part of Allah, who is actually deciding who will believe and who will not. The notion of qadar or destiny is a core belief of Islam, and I'll leave it to Muslims to explain it further.

Verses 23 and 24 put forward the notion of the "inimitable Qur'an" - the idea that it is impossible for mortal men to create verses that are comparable to those of the Qur'an, thus supporting the belief that the Qur'an is divine revelation. Even if this had been an effective challenge at the time of the Qur'an's revelation, it would no longer function as such today, as millions of Muslims know the Qur'an by heart and could immediately identify non-Qur'anic verses as such, whatever their quality.

Verse 30 refers to khilafa, the notion that humanity (initially Adam) has been appointed by Allah as Allah's deputy/successor/vicegerent on earth. Note that it is not Allah who is said to shed blood, but humanity. Despite this, Allah is still prepared to entrust the stewardship of the earth to humanity. Many Muslims see this verse, and similar references in the Qur'an, as showing the fundamental trust that Allah is prepared to place in humanity, despite all its negative attributes, and hence the reciprocal obligation that humanity must accept to sustain and preserve the world.

dj357 · 10-03-2011 7:28pm

Ok, so those verse speak to predestination on the part of Allah regarding who will believe and who will not and thus who will be punished and who will not? Aside from some turning of phrase and ambiguous translation here and there, aside from the last passage speaking of the Angel, I can see no major difference between those (correctly identified as) coming from the Skeptics Annotated Bible (which I use as a preferential source as my only copy of the Qu'ran is in German) and those which you provide. The words may differ, but the overall message of predestination and punishment remain the same.

The argument of the "inimitable Qu'ran" is circular though, no? Either way, since the irreproducibility of the Qu'ran is one of the arguments through which it is said that one can come to know the grace of Allah, given the OPs question, without the Qu'ran and it's so-called 'inimitability' how could one come to know Allah?

Hobbes · 11-03-2011 8:18am

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What tone? What are you talking about?

How people are asking questions. You are free to ask questions, what this forum is not up for debate on is attacking the faith or people who post on this forum about what religion they may or may not follow.

You have been in the forum long enough to know this.

If people clearly posting with intent, rather then questions want to cherry pick from an anti-Muslim site,I would recommend that you actually go read the full section of the comment on a pro-Muslim site like Irishconvert mentions earlier.

Also like I said how you ask the question and how you respond to the answer.

Mark Hamill · 11-03-2011 11:48am

Hobbes wrote: »

How people are asking questions. You are free to ask questions, what this forum is not up for debate on is attacking the faith or people who post on this forum about what religion they may or may not follow.

You have been in the forum long enough to know this.

Also like I said how you ask the question and how you respond to the answer.

What is wrong with the way most people in this thread have been asking and answering questions? Like I said to dj357 "Asking follow up questions because the first answer you get was not sufficient is not an attack, if it was then every single thread on this whole website would be two posts long". This is a discussion forum, you cant really have discussions if everyone is forced to accept the first response they get, regardless of what misunderstandings or disagreements they have with it.

Hobbes wrote: »

If people clearly posting with intent, rather then questions want to cherry pick from an anti-Muslim site,I would recommend that you actually go read the full section of the comment on a pro-Muslim site like Irishconvert mentions earlier.

Who are you talking about? dj357's selective translations of those surahs from the quran were posted after your second warning (he was banned way earlier in thread the first time he posted them), besides that, the only websites linked to have wikipedia and miraclesofthequran (hardly an anti muslim site).

hivizman · 11-03-2011 2:18pm

dj357 wrote: »

Ok, so those verse speak to predestination on the part of Allah regarding who will believe and who will not and thus who will be punished and who will not? Aside from some turning of phrase and ambiguous translation here and there, aside from the last passage speaking of the Angel, I can see no major difference between those (correctly identified as) coming from the Skeptics Annotated Bible (which I use as a preferential source as my only copy of the Qu'ran is in German) and those which you provide. The words may differ, but the overall message of predestination and punishment remain the same.

Yes, the overall message is broadly the same, but the Skeptic's Annotated Qur'an, at least in the quoted verses, goes for extreme translations. For example, in Surah Al-Baqarah 2:24, the arabic text expresses a warning that those who claim to be able to present "non-Qur'anic surahs" face the risk of hellfire, the Skeptic's translation appears to suggest that hellfire is inevitable. In Surah Al-Baqarah 2:30, the Skeptic's translation states that Allah will shed blood, while the arabic text has the angels questioning Allah's appointment of humanity as Allah's deputy by observing that humans are the source of discord and shedding of blood.

dj357 wrote: »

The argument of the "inimitable Qu'ran" is circular though, no? Either way, since the irreproducibility of the Qu'ran is one of the arguments through which it is said that one can come to know the grace of Allah, given the OPs question, without the Qu'ran and it's so-called 'inimitability' how could one come to know Allah?

I agree with you that the "inimitable Qur'an" argument is weak, though I'm less sure that it is circular. The argument is, I think, that the alleged inability of humans to produce a surah comparable to those of the Qur'an is evidence supporting the claim that the Qur'an represents divine revelation. If one rejects the latter position, and believes that the Qur'an is a human product, then clearly humans can produce surahs comparable with the Qur'an. On the other hand, even if, so far, humans have been unable to produce a surah comparable to those of the Qur'an, it is a fallacy of induction to deduce from this that humans will never produce such a surah. Given the wide knowledge of the Qur'an shared by Muslims today, I do not think that there can be a fair test of whether a "human surah" is or is not comparable with the Qur'an.

There is a website "The Inimitable Qur'an", which sets out various arguments in support of inimitability. I don't find these convincing taken as a whole, but they provide a lot of valuable material on rhetorical and expository devices used in the Qur'an.

If No One Had Told You About Allah.... Would You Still Believe In Him?

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