If No One Had Told You About Allah.... Would You Still Believe In Him?

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

50 Years ago science believes sun was stationery. But it is written 1400 years ago in Quran that everything in universe is moving including Sun. So there are lot of mysteries still in the Quran which Science hasn't discover but it's doesn't mean Quran is wrong.

1400 hundred years ago, many believed the sun orbited the earth, how do you know that wasn't what the quran meant?

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

It's not my idea, It is fact which you ignoring, You need no God to govern your lives because you r god of yourself. That is exaclty what quran tells that some people make their desires as their lord. Why you are not following God's desires or God's word because it is difficult for you to leave what you are worshiping i.e. your desires.

A large part of what humans do is restrict their own desires, its unavoidable. Our desires are quite reactionary and animalistic, when we are hungry, we want to eat, when he are aroused, we want to mate etc. However, we recognise that to simply give into desires at any time will mean chaos. Peoples desires tend to overlap, there will be never ending conflict if people were just slaves to their desires. So we make laws, based (supposedly) on reason, that create peace and give everyone a fair chance.

dead one wrote: »

can you tell me who decides, what is Good and what is bad, Please clear me.

Humans do, in consensus, when they are doing it right. This goes for religion too, if you think about. Allah may tell you what it is to be good, be you decide whether or not to bother to be good, you decide that it is good to be good.

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How can atheists have made themselves god if they dont believe in any god?

Answer to your question is very simple. you don't believe any god, than you are god of yourself. It doesn't matter whether you think yourself as god or not. Why there is God, have you ever wonder? Can please tell me what do think about GHod

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You think atheists just whatever they like whenever they like? Have you ever actually met an atheist? If this were true, then countries with large amounts of atheists would collapse into anarchy.


Why aren't muslim countries the most peaceful countries in the world then?

Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries (infact they aren't pure islamic societies). Have you ever wonder? Because Islam provide justice to people. It has solution for all of yours problems. Islam don't need to torture people if you don't believe in Allah.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

It's not my idea, It is fact which you ignoring, You need no God to govern your lives because you r god of yourself. That is exaclty what quran tells that some people make their desires as their lord. Why you are not following God's desires or God's word because it is difficult for you to leave what you are worshiping i.e. your desires.

Are you even listening to me or just repeating rhetoric?

can you tell me who decides, what is Good and what is bad, Please clear me.

Humans do in consensus

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

1400 hundred years ago, many believed the sun orbited the earth, how do you know that wasn't what the quran meant?

Please Look at this verse

And the sun runs to a fixed resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Surah Ya Sin, 38)

The Arabic word "mustaqarrin" in the verse refers to a particular place or time. The word “tajree,” translated as “runs,” bears such meanings as “to move, to act swiftly, to move about, to flow.” It appears from the meanings of the words that the Sun will continue in its course in time and space, but that this motion will continue until a specific, predetermined time. The verse " When the Sun is compacted in blackness " (Surat at-Takwir, 1) which appears in descriptions of Doomsday, tells us that such a time will be coming. The specific timing is known only to Allah.
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_100.html

dead one

dead one wrote: »

Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries (infact they aren't pure islamic societies). Have you ever wonder?

Because apostasy is punishable by death maybe?!!!

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why aren't muslim countries the most peaceful countries in the world then?

Firstly because there are no true Muslim countries. In fact the majority of Muslim countries are ruled by puppets propped up by the west.

According to the map on the wikipedia page, the majority of Muslim countires seem to fair better than the US.

irishconvert

bluewolf wrote: »

Because apostasy is punishable by death maybe?!!!

There is a lot of disagreement on that point. I don't believe there is any reference to it in the Qur'an. In fact, the Qur'an states the opposite in Surah Al Baqarah 2:256:

There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance has been made clearly distinct from error. Therefore, whoever renounces ‘Tãghüt’ (forces of Shaitãn) and believes in Allah has grasped the firm hand-hold that will never break. Allah, Whose hand-hold you have grasped, hears all and knows all

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

There is a lot of disagreement on that point. I don't believe there is any reference to it in the Qur'an.

I wouldnt say there is but in some islamic countries it's a fact isn't it. There are plenty of things wrong with some of them just as there are anywhere else.
Reference to islamic countries is not helping his point about them being the most peaceful or anything

irishconvert

bluewolf wrote: »

I wouldnt say there is but in some islamic countries it's a fact isn't it. There are plenty of things wrong with some of them just as there are anywhere else.
Reference to islamic countries is not helping his point about them being the most peaceful or anything

I think he should have said in a true Islamic society, maybe this is what he meant.

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

Are you even listening to me or just repeating rhetoric?

Yes i am seeing, I have no ear to type

bluewolf wrote: »

Humans do in consensus

Alright suppose there is group of men and group of women. No can you tell me. Will Group of Men do Justice with group of women if they decide what is good for Women. Or Will Group of Woman do Justice with group of Men if they decide what is good for Man. The point is Men and women can't decide what is good or bad for them. But it's creator who decide?. Now Question Why creator because he created us, No one know us better than him. I hope you get the point. The man who

Now if i take you as my consensus. Can you tell me what is good and what bad for me as you don't feel me.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

Yes i am seeing, I have no ear to type

So why are you saying I worship desires when I told you the opposite?
Or maybe you are calling me deluded because I am not in your religion?

Alright suppose there is group of men and group of women. No can you tell me. Will Group of Men do Justice with group of women if they decide what is good for Women. Or Will Group of Woman do Justice with group of Men if they decide what is good for Man. The point is Men and women can't decide what is good or bad for them. .

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here
Will a group of people do justice for others? Well we have jury systems don't we? Common laws?
We already have decided what is good and bad

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

Because apostasy is punishable by death maybe?!!!

I think someone has misguided you about Islam. Please be honest with yourself don't follow people, If you believe in reason and logic than don't follow people but read and understand Quran that is pure way to understand

dead one

dead one wrote: »

I think someone has misguided you about Islam. Please be honest with yourself don't follow people, If you believe in reason and logic than don't follow people but read and understand Quran that is pure way to understand

What the quran says is one thing, but you asked why there arent too many atheists in islamic countries and I answered why

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

Answer to your question is very simple. you don't believe any god, than you are god of yourself. It doesn't matter whether you think yourself as god or not.

This doesn't make any sense. If we dont believe in gods, then we cant make ourselves gods, because we dont believe in them.

dead one wrote: »

Why there is God, have you ever wonder? Can please tell me what do think about GHod

I dont really understand you point here. You seem to be coming from the point of view that god exists in everyone opinions, regardless of whether or not they are atheists. I dont believe god exists.

dead one wrote: »

Why there r less atheist in Islamic countries (infact they aren't pure islamic societies). Have you ever wonder? Because Islam provide justice to people. It has solution for all of yours problems. Islam don't need to torture people if you don't believe in Allah.

the rules of the islam religion ensure that its incredibly hard for people to leave it. From early life there is strong indoctrination in islamic schools, so kids are not exactly presented with an equal look at all religions (how many hours are spent each day learning the quran when you are a child). Then you have the marriage rules: muslim men can marry women of the book (christians and jews, I hoe I have that term right), but muslim women cant. Why? Because in islam, men are head of the family and they decide what is taught to the kids. This way a muslim man married to a non muslim can ensure islam is taught to the kids, but a muslim woman in the same situation couldn't. Lastly you have apostasy. Even under the most benign of apostasy rules, you are going to have major obstacles in leaving, just look at apostasy and conversion in Malaysia. Its very easy to point at the lack of converts from islam when islam itself doesn't really allow for conversion to other religions.

Mark Hamill

dead one wrote: »

Please Look at this verse

That in no way contradicts what I said. that verse could equally be said to apply to an geocentric understanding of the solar system. ie the sun orbits the earth.

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Firstly because there are no true Muslim countries. In fact the majority of Muslim countries are ruled by puppets propped up by the west.

Which country is closes to being a true muslims country.

irishconvert wrote: »

According to the map on the wikipedia page, the majority of Muslim countires seem to fair better than the US.

But nowhere near as good as most of europe, scandanavia, australasia or canada.

irishconvert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Which country is closes to being a true muslims country.

Sorry but I don't know enough about the various Muslim countries to answer that.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But nowhere near as good as most of europe, scandanavia, australasia or canada.

Why do you think that is?

Mark Hamill

irishconvert wrote: »

Sorry but I don't know enough about the various Muslim countries to answer that.

But you know enough to say that the majority are ruled by puppets of the west?

irishconvert wrote: »

Why do you think that is?

Because muslim countries tend to score worse in the criteria listed on the wiki page, eg wars fought, violent crimes, homicides, human rights violations etc. Overall, though, its a lack of personal secularity. Peace comes from the public as a whole (as opposed to the government) being secular (this is not the same as the people as individuals being secular). You loose a lot of those internal conflict problems, citizen distrust and even poor relations with neighbouring countries if people, as a whole, just stopped being bothered by other people doing or believing things that are none of their business.

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

That in no way contradicts what I said. that verse could equally be said to apply to an geocentric understanding of the solar system. ie the sun orbits the earth.

Alright, suppose i agree, Also suppose Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had copy it, Infact i told you he didn't understand how to read and write. Let take another example.

A RED ROSE IN THE SKY: THE ROSETTE NEBULA

When the Heaven shall be cleft asunder, and become rose red, like stained leather. (Surat ar-Rahman, 37)

The Arabic expression translated above as "become rose red, like stained leather" is "verdeten ke eddihani." This term compares an image appearing in the sky to a red rose. This description bears a close similarity to red celestial bodies with a plicate appearance, especially the "Rosette Nebula."http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_106.html

also if you say it is wrong
than

THE MOON'S ORBIT

And We have decreed set phases for the moon, until it ends up looking like an old date branch. It is not for the sun to overtake the moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 36:39-40)

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_12.html

There are many things in quran showing quran is from creator.

[Surah 22:46]

"Do they not travel through the land, so that their hearts (and minds) may thus learn wisdom and their ears may thus learn to hear? Truly it is not their eyes that are blind, but their hearts which are in their breasts."

dead one

Mark Hamill wrote: »

This doesn't make any sense. If we dont believe in gods, then we cant make ourselves gods, because we dont believe in them.

Look friend you are not understanding, It is not whether you believe yourself as god or not, It is when you reject existence of God than you reject all sources of reason, that is you have no creator, God didn't created you, creation is one of property of God. when you deny that creation than ultimately you are opposing God. only a god can oppose other God. I think it is very clear whether you assume yourself god or not.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont really understand you point here. You seem to be coming from the point of view that god exists in everyone opinions, regardless of whether or not they are atheists. I dont believe god exists.

Point is even if you ask a child of ten year he will also tell you about God. Do you think that human minds have created these God. You can see God in every aspect of life. Watch documentaries on ocean, even there exist such a creation which no human has ever seen. Can All these strong fact will remove the greatest fact of life, if you said;

I dont believe god exists.

You are fooling your mind even your mind also says "There is God"

Mark Hamill wrote: »

the rules of the islam religion ensure that its incredibly hard for people to leave it. From early life there is strong indoctrination in islamic schools, so kids are not exactly presented with an equal look at all religions (how many hours are spent each day learning the quran when you are a child). Then you have the marriage rules: muslim men can marry women of the book (christians and jews, I hoe I have that term right), but muslim women cant. Why? Because in islam, men are head of the family and they decide what is taught to the kids. This way a muslim man married to a non muslim can ensure islam is taught to the kids, but a muslim woman in the same situation couldn't. Lastly you have apostasy. Even under the most benign of apostasy rules, you are going to have major obstacles in leaving, just look at apostasy and conversion in Malaysia. Its very easy to point at the lack of converts from islam when islam itself doesn't really allow for conversion to other religions.

That's what many people are doing. To understand Islam you have to look life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) not the apostasy and conversion in Malaysia. As i already said there is no single society on earth with establish Islam. Many Muslims countries don't represents Islam. Behonest with yourself if you follow people you will not get the truth.

1- Who are the Apostates in Islam?

Apostates or Renegades are those who decide to leave the religion of Islam. There is a widely prevailing misconception abt this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.
Let us look at Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.
Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.
"As most men are rebellious." (5:49), it is inevitable that there should be apostates even from such a religion of reason and common-sense as Islam. In Verse 5:54 above there is a warning to the Muslims that they should not repeat the history of the Jews, and become so self-satisfied or arrogant as to depart from the spirit of Allah's teaching. If they do, the loss will be their own. Allah's bounty is not confined to one group or section of humanity. He can always raise up people who will follow the true spirit of Islam. That spirit is defined in two ways:
1- They will love Allah Almighty and Allah Almighty will love them.
2- Amongst the Brethren, their attitude will be that of humility, but to wrongdoers they will offer no compromises, and they will always strive and fight for the truth and right. They will know no fear, either physical, or that more insidious form. They are too great in mind to be haunted by any such thought.
Let us look at Noble Verse 5:55 "(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are (No less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship)." Here we see Allah Almighty telling Muslims after he warned them from apostates in (5:54) that their real friends are: Allah Almighty, Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, and the good Muslims who keep up with their prayers and charity, and who humbly worship their God.
Let us look at Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.
The path to Allah Almighty is always open and Allah Almighty will be your friend as in verse (5:55) above, and he will forgive your sins for you once you repent as in the following verse: "Except for those that repent (Even) after that, And make amends; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." (3:89).
http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

What the quran says is one thing

,
What Quran says, Quran doesn't say which you learn from internet to spread evil against Islam. Is this really honesty. You aren't even honest in answering question than why you think you will honest with yourself.

but you asked why there arent too many atheists in islamic countries and I answered why[/QUOTE]

Your answer is not an honest answer because you tried to misquote quran, do you really think it is honesty. Please see above post Who are apostate in Islam.

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

So why are you saying I worship desires when I told you the opposite?

It is fact which is written in quran,Let me clear you suppose i want to robb someone and i also know that it is order of Allah "be Just". If i robb him than i have worshiped my desires because following Allah's orders is as worshiping him. When you say there is no God, infact you are following no God but your desires/ your hearts/ your science / you reason. Because you don't have enough proof against the existence of God.

bluewolf wrote: »

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here
Will a group of people do justice for others? Well we have jury systems don't we? Common laws?
We already have decided what is good and bad

I am saying you are taking human to decide what is good and what is bad for them. Men can't decide "good" for women as men have no idea what are the feeling of woman. So a women can't desicide what is good for men, as they had no idea what are feeling of men.

virmilitaris

irishconvert wrote: »

We, as Muslims, believe you have to follow the Qur'an. What happens to you if you don't follow these teachings, I cannot tell you. That is up to Allah.

But this is my question. Have to follow the Qur'an why ? Whats the reason to ?

Not just for reward. We do it because it pleases Allah. As Muslims, we submit to the will of Allah.

But why would I want to please Allah ?

virmilitaris

dead one wrote: »

Let us talk to the reason. Who gives you life when you r nothing. What you r eating, enjoying or drinking with your fives scenes is not enough reason to thank him. Your are eyes are the reason with them you see the beauty of world. Isn't it reason. Ask to your

Now can you give me reason, Have you created yourself?

Again, nothing there is a reason to thank him now. If I don't thank him will I not experience these things ?

dead one

dead one wrote: »

When you say there is no God, infact you are following no God but your desires/ your hearts/ your science / you reason. Because you don't have enough proof against the existence of God.

.

I didn't say there was no god. I didn't even say anything close. In fact my reply to irishconvert reminding us which forum we are in said for the purpose of this discussion we assumed your god exists and want reasons for worship.

If you're going to ignore all my posts just to spout the same thing over and over I don't see the point in continuing this discussion

dead one

dead one wrote: »

,

Your answer is not an honest answer because you tried to misquote quran, do you really think it is honesty. Please see above post Who are apostate in Islam.

How can I misquote the quran when I didn't even quote it.
What I SAID was, I'm SURE the quran doesnt proscribe death for apostasy but its implementation in islamic countries is another matter.
Now if you're going to tell us that islamic countries are the most peaceful - well, they aren't. End of.

dead one

virmilitaris wrote: »

Again, nothing there is a reason to thank him now. If I don't thank him will I not experience these things ?

again you ignore the reason, while typing , even if you look at your typing style, it will provide you enough reason, that there is creator who typed and assemble yourself. So why no thanks. So why you r arrogant to accept it.

dead one

bluewolf wrote: »

How can I misquote the quran when I didn't even quote it.
What I SAID was, I'm SURE the quran doesnt proscribe death for apostasy but its implementation in islamic countries is another matter.
Now if you're going to tell us that islamic countries are the most peaceful - well, they aren't. End of.

If quran doesn't proscribe than why you r giving the example of people. Like i always said, there is no single society on face of earth with practical Islam. Islamic countries are no excuse. If you want to spot people rather what is written in scripture, i am sure you won't able to reach the truth.

dead one

dead one wrote: »

If quran doesn't proscribe than why you r giving the example of people. Like i always said, there is no single society on face of earth with practical Islam. Islamic countries are no excuse. If you want to spot people rather what is written in scripture, i am sure you won't able to reach the truth.

What do you mean theyre no excuse? You said societies worshiping your god would be peaceful but they aren't more or less peaceful than the rest of us. Or is this a no true scotsman situation?