Wisconsin Protests

bazkennedy

What do people think of what's going on in Wisconsin at the moment. The Republic governor wants to bring in a labour bill that will remove the right to collective bargaining. This has cause several days of protests. Democratic state senators have fled the state to prevent the Republicans from holding a vote (the GOP are 1 vote short of a quorum)

Amerika

As a prior union member, I stand in solidarity with these unions.

Lets face it, without the benefit of unions... State, County and Municipalities would assuredly reintroduce child labor (the schools do have an ample supply you know). But you might ask yourself why would public servants need a union when there are a plethora of labor laws, civil rights laws and lawyers eager to take on any labor case? Or why would you need a union when you work in a monopolistic, non-competitive environment? Well, simply there’s nothing to see there, so please move along!

Who cares that the average teacher package in Milwaukee is over $100K (while the average income in WI is around $47K per year), and also is home to some of the poorest test scores in the country. The unions job is to work for their members, and it’s their job is to make schools into places of employment for adults rather than child-centered learning environments (those damn kids!). They’ve done their job pretty well so far, don’t you think? And all those union dues paid to the politicians should have bought them something, right? So why muck up such as wonderful system, even in this period of economic turmoil.

And forget about the $3 billion dollar WI state budget deficit over the next two years they keep yammering about. Much of Obama’s Stimulus package of $850 billion was used to try and cover many of the state employee salaries and benefit shortfalls. So just do it again and let our grandkids worry about it, or just raise everyone’s taxes. Does a 98% sales tax rate really sound so bad?

Long live the “3 C's”... Collusion, Corruption and Coercion, a union’s best friend!

(Thank god Ronald Reagan is no longer around and in power.)

I think I need some TEA.

RichieC

They're punishing the unions that didn't give Governor Walker support in the elections.

Manic Moran

I can't say I'm overall a fan of unions. Representative associations are one thing, but unions are a bit more dodgy. Unions of public employees, however, I am in no uncertainty at all. They are often quite powerful (California Teacher's Association is over a third of a million voters), and by voting, that means that they have control over the other side of the table, the government which is their employer. They're indirectly negotiating with themselves. Who can't see a conflict of interest here?

Either way, be public unions a good thing or a bad thing, the People of Wisconsin elected a set of representatives who are carrying out legitimate government policies, and are doing more or less what they said they would do if elected.

NTM

Amerika

Remember all the outrage over some of the signs and rhetoric at the Tea Party protests. My god, it was almost non-stop brouhaha. Hmmm… so where’s the outrage now? I guess silence is beholden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=71gsnLfsbbM

Or is just a case of Union Protests – GOOD, Tea Party Protests – EVIL!

RichieC

Manic Moran wrote: »

Either way, be public unions a good thing or a bad thing, the People of Wisconsin elected a set of representatives who are carrying out legitimate government policies, and are doing more or less what they said they would do if elected.

By that logic so did Obama... yet the Tea partiers still flipped out about his healthcare reforms.

The argument i hear is "yea but we're talking about the mandatory buying of a private sector service which against the constitution". Yet, they were talking of blood watering the tree of liberty long before they knew anything about that.

On May 2nd, 1933, the day after Labor day, Nazi groups occupied union halls and labor leaders were arrested. Trade Unions were outlawed by Adolf Hitler, while collective bargaining and the right to strike was abolished. This was the beginning of a consolidation of power by the fascist regime which systematically wiped out all opposition groups, starting with unions, liberals, socialists, and communists using Himmler’s state police.
Fast forward to America today, particularly Wisconsin. Governor Walker and the Republican/Tea Party members of the state legislature are attempting to pass a bill that would not only severely punish public unions (with exception for the police, fire, and state trooper unions that supported his campaign), but it would effectively end 50 years to the right of these workers to collectively bargain.

Collective bargaining is a process of voluntary negotiations between employers and trade unions aimed at reaching agreements which regulate working conditions. Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs.

First of all, assaulting the rights of workers to collectively bargain has absolutely nothing to do with any immediate budgetary issues. It does however have everything to do with ending one of the basic rights of labor to organize.
Second, and more importantly, the budget “crisis” in Wisconsin is both exaggerated and created in part by the new Republican power base as a tool to attack political opponents. Walker decreased state revenue when he enacted tax cuts for the rich and big corporations, who are not surprisingly large campaign donors for his political campaign.

http://newsjunkiepost.com/2011/02/20/may-1933-hitler-abolishes-unions/


feel free to dismiss everything stated in the article by evoking Godwins law or screaming about biased sources.

enjoy your night.

Manic Moran

RichieC wrote: »

By that logic so did Obama... yet the Tea partiers still flipped out about his healthcare reforms.

I'm not sure he did, actually. I can't recall off the top of my head exactly what it was that Obama had promised in the elections, but I strongly doubt he had been promising a 2,500 page colossus that seemed to make almost nobody happy.

And at that, I don't recall minority Congressional legislators walking away from the job.

And finally, most tea party members were likely not protesting as federal employees worried about their personal benefits.

The argument i hear is "yea but we're talking about the mandatory buying of a private sector service which against the constitution". Yet, they were talking of blood watering the tree of liberty long before they knew anything about that.

I certainly don't mean to imply that the teachers should just shut up and take it. On the other hand, there must also be a realisation that minority viewpoints will usually lose in the legislature. The safeguard against the tyranny of the majority is the Constitution and the law of the land, not minority parties absconding.

feel free to dismiss everything stated in the article by evoking Godwins law or screaming about biased sources.

Erm. Thank your for your permission...

Godwin's law attained in six posts! BIASED SOURCES SUCK!!!!

Happy?

From the article you quote, Adolf banned unions precisely because they hold massive political weight, which is the whole problem of the conflict of interest when it comes to public sector workers I had mentioned earlier. Effectively, they're telling the elected government "Give us what we want, or we'll use our political clout to get rid of you." Wouldn't you love to be able to tell your boss to give you a raise or you'll fire him? I know I would.

I have other issues with unions in general simply on the efficiency/economic side of things, but that's far less egregious than the conflict posed by public employees.

enjoy your night.

Thank you. Still afternoon here, though, I've a bit of time to go yet.

NTM

Denerick

The power of public sector unions in all western countries is disproportionately significant. That is not to say that I support a stripping away of a fundamental advance of mankind (The right of labour to organise, to struggle for better conditions, and generally to improve the lot of society)

RichieC

Manic Moran wrote: »

I certainly don't mean to imply that the teachers should just shut up and take it. On the other hand, there must also be a realisation that minority viewpoints will usually lose in the legislature. The safeguard against the tyranny of the majority is the Constitution and the law of the land, not minority parties absconding.

So the right never lower themselves to legislative shenanigans to get their way?

This is power play to appease the big business money that put the tea party candidates in power, in time the normal joe soaps who are reacting to this via their knee jerk identity politics will realise the mistake they made, and only when it is too late. Just like the Campaign Finance Laws the supreme court over turned last year, you'll be alive to regret it.

Manic Moran

RichieC wrote: »

So the right never lower themselves to legislative shenanigans to get their way?

Not at all, but at least they use the rules of the legislature to do it, varying from filibuster through vote-trading. The Wisconsin Democrat Senators have gone beyond the rules of the legislature, so far beyond that under the Wisconsin law that authorises the Master at Arms to physically grab them to come back, they're outside the jurisdiction. Put another way, they were elected to represent their constituents in their seats in the legislature. They're nowhere near their seats.

The last time this happened was eight years ago in Texas, and it was Democrats there as well, at it happened.

This is power play to appease the big business money that put the tea party candidates in power, in time the normal joe soaps who are reacting to this via their knee jerk identity politics will realise the mistake they made, and only when it is too late.

Uh-huh. As opposed to the union money that gets put forward? The largest single political contributor in the 2010 election cycle appears to have been a union (Service Employees International Union Comittee on Political Education, $32.2m).The largest business PAC contribution was Honeywell, $5.6m.
Figures from campaignmoney.com

Just like the Campaign Finance Laws the supreme court over turned last year, you'll be alive to regret it.

I happen to agree with the Court's ruling. I'd prefer if there was no private funding at all for election campaigns, to include the candidate's personal fortune, but if there is, well, so be it. Although you'll note that the Citizen's United ruling does allow unions to contribute independently as well: they're also corporations, after all.

NTM

Manic Moran

And again. Indiana this time.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110222/NEWS/110222004/House-Democrats-flee-Indiana-stop-votes?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|IndyStar.com

Seats on one side of the Indiana House were nearly empty today as House Democrats departed the the state rather than vote on anti-union legislation.

A source tells The Indianapolis Star that Democrats are headed to Illinois, though it was possible some also might go to Kentucky. They need to go to a state with a Democratic governor to avoid being taken into police custody and returned to Indiana.

The House came into session twice this morning, with only three of the 40 Democrats present. Those were needed to make a motion, and a seconding motion, for any procedural steps Democrats would want to take to ensure Republicans don’t do anything official without quorum.

With only 58 legislators present, there was no quorum present to do business. The House needs 67 of its members to be present.

NTM

Exile 1798

Amerika wrote: »

As a prior union member, I stand in solidarity with these unions.

Lets face it, without the benefit of unions... State, County and Municipalities would assuredly reintroduce child labor (the schools do have an ample supply you know). But you might ask yourself why would public servants need a union when there are a plethora of labor laws, civil rights laws and lawyers eager to take on any labor case? Or why would you need a union when you work in a monopolistic, non-competitive environment? Well, simply there’s nothing to see there, so please move along!

Who cares that the average teacher package in Milwaukee is over $100K (while the average income in WI is around $47K per year), and also is home to some of the poorest test scores in the country. The unions job is to work for their members, and it’s their job is to make schools into places of employment for adults rather than child-centered learning environments (those damn kids!). They’ve done their job pretty well so far, don’t you think? And all those union dues paid to the politicians should have bought them something, right? So why muck up such as wonderful system, even in this period of economic turmoil.

And forget about the $3 billion dollar WI state budget deficit over the next two years they keep yammering about. Much of Obama’s Stimulus package of $850 billion was used to try and cover many of the state employee salaries and benefit shortfalls. So just do it again and let our grandkids worry about it, or just raise everyone’s taxes. Does a 98% sales tax rate really sound so bad?

Long live the “3 C's”... Collusion, Corruption and Coercion, a union’s best friend!

(Thank god Ronald Reagan is no longer around and in power.)

I think I need some TEA.

So out of sarcastic stream of conciseness let's have a look at the only passing attempts at facts based argument.

Who cares that the average teacher package in Milwaukee is over $100K (while the average income in WI is around $47K per year),

False. And hey, if you're just going to make stuff up why not make it a cool million?

and also is home to some of the poorest test scores in the country.

Actually, some of the highest.

Wisconsin average ACT test score third highest in nation

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/article_e1a9af02-aa5f-11df-a9ff-001cc4c002e0.html

RichieC

reposted from facebook:

Are you sick of highly paid teachers?

Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.



That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours).



Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET'S SEE....

That's $585 X 180= $105,300

per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).



What about those special

education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an

hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute -- there's

something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher's salary

(nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days

= $277.77/per day/30

students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

:pac:

RichieC

Manic Moran wrote: »

I happen to agree with the Court's ruling. I'd prefer if there was no private funding at all for election campaigns, to include the candidate's personal fortune, but if there is, well, so be it. Although you'll note that the Citizen's United ruling does allow unions to contribute independently as well: they're also corporations, after all.

NTM

Natch.

Sgt. Sensible

Exile 1798 wrote: »

False. And hey, if you're just going to make stuff up why not make it a cool million?

My ex lives there. The average salary for teachers in Wisconsin is around $48000. The median Wisconsin household income, according to the US Census Bureau is about $51,000.

I'm loathe to encourage any distasteful Nazi related derailing, but as for the guy going on about Hitler, it was absolutely essential that the organised working class opposition to the nazis had political clout as they were all that stood between him and his plans for war. In hindsight it's unfortunate that they didn't have enough damned clout, though this view depends on where one would place themselves on the German political spectrum between say 1928 and 1933.

Manic Moran

RichieC wrote: »

Natch.

Believe it or not, I actually had to look that up. Here's me thinking it was some form of eloquent and elegantly short argument.

Would you care to state your position on the concept of a public sector union hammering out negotiations with people they have a say in electing or not-re-electing, and why the non-union taxpayer isn't unfairly under-represented as a result of this situation?

NTM

20Cent

How could America call itself the land of the free if they ban collective bargaining?
How could it be banned anyway?

Sgt. Sensible

I read richiec's post incorrectly. Busy day. Apologies.

Manic Moran

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Actually, some of the highest.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/article_e1a9af02-aa5f-11df-a9ff-001cc4c002e0.html

This is true. Unfortunately, that is more a sad reflection of the state of education in the US as a whole.
Look at reading:

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/main2009/2010458.pdf

Table on Page 16 shows a slight drop in Wisconsin's 4th grade reading scores between 1998 and 2008.

Tables on pages 53 and 54 show similar drops, with the 8th Grade figures showing no change (with about one in three students being 'proficient' in reading English), despite a 60% increase in per-pupil spending in real terms over the same amount of time.

It's one of those pyhrric successes.

NTM

Overheal

This is also a good time to mention I earned US College Credits for Honors classes I took in the Leaving Cert. Seems a bit crazy that Irish high school counterparts are doing college level stuff while US Students are doing... what exactly

Amerika

Exile 1798 wrote: »

False. And hey, if you're just going to make stuff up why not make it a cool million?

My post noting the $100k teacher package was regarding "Milwaukee," and teacher package includes salary plus benefits.
http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/average-mps-teacher-compensation-tops-100kyear/

Actually, some of the highest.

Once again, my post noted "Milwaukee."

Apologies will be accepted. (but somehow all I expect to get are yabuts)

RichieC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4

amacachi

Overheal wrote: »

This is also a good time to mention I earned US College Credits for Honors classes I took in the Leaving Cert. Seems a bit crazy that Irish high school counterparts are doing college level stuff while US Students are doing... what exactly

Do any maths in high school? An American mate couldn't believe how much more we did when he moved over here.


For once I'm on the side of the unions, something that really doesn't happen very often.

cheesehead

Anectdotally, as a resident of Wisconsin, I would say sentiment on the street is running approximately 80% to 90% in favor of Gov. Scott Walker's position.

Many aren't viewing this as Democrat vs. Republican or Union vs. Non-Union.

Many view this as a matter of math. We simply can't continue to fully fund pension benefits and medical benefits for retired public workers.

My only complaint: Why didn't Walker include Police/Fire Unions in the bill (presently they are exempt). To me, that does smack of purely politics. Perhaps once this bill passes (and my prediction is it will), Walker will then go after the Police/Fire Unions.

As an aside: Is Walker setting himself up for a more "national" position? Like NJ Governor Chris Christie, the Republican Governors appear to be the ones leading the Republican Party at this point. Christie insists he has no plans to run for national office in 2012 (he hasn't ruled out 2016), but it's early, so who knows.

Overheal

amacachi wrote: »

Do any maths in high school? An American mate couldn't believe how much more we did when he moved over here.


For once I'm on the side of the unions, something that really doesn't happen very often.

I cant support the unions on this, sorry. A Public sector union that wants to bleed the taxpayer to do the same work and effectively eroding the value for dollar the education system provides.

No i never did US HS Math but I have gotten bits and pieces of it off of SAT prep tests and the like. It's alarmingly basic.

Perhaps we should just shut down most public schools and instead give the funding out as grants/scholarships to parents to get their kids into privately run schools.

Memnoch

Overheal wrote: »

I cant support the unions on this, sorry. A Public sector union that wants to bleed the taxpayer to do the same work and effectively eroding the value for dollar the education system provides.

No i never did US HS Math but I have gotten bits and pieces of it off of SAT prep tests and the like. It's alarmingly basic.

Perhaps we should just shut down most public schools and instead give the funding out as grants/scholarships to parents to get their kids into privately run schools.

This is the problem right here. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with the unions on THIS issue or THAT issue. Just like it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with Human Rights law on this issue or that issue.

Either people should have the right to bargain collectively or they shouldn't, that's the principle at stake here.

I stand firmly behind the right of people to democratically band together in order to protect their rights. Removing this right is a fundamental blow to the idea of basic democracy.

20Cent

Regarding the comments about it not being fair that Unions have more access to negotiation than other people. Isn't it interesting that while Democratic party senators in Wisconsin can't get replies from Walker a wealthy donor David Koch can just call up and chat away so easily. Shows that Walker is not opposed to talking to interest groups. Just it is the ones that give him lots of money.

Amerika

Memnoch wrote: »

I stand firmly behind the right of people to democratically band together in order to protect their rights. Removing this right is a fundamental blow to the idea of basic democracy.

Collective Bargaining is not a right! It is merely a privilege bestowed on unions by a legislature of whom many receive substantial donations from the unions. And privileges can and should be revoked if abused as in the case of teacher unions.

How does tenure and probationary periods, leaves and sabbaticals, some of the most important issues of teacher union collective bargaining efforts, help educate our children? It actually does more harm than good for the education process.

Let’s face it, what the teachers union is most afraid of is school districts wishing to no longer automatically withhold union dues from teachers and paying those monies to the unions. They want it to be the responsibility of the teachers to pay their dues themselves. This would probably decrease dues money received by unions by 30%-40% if it is let up to the teachers themselves to pay their dues. It really is all about the union money (in my opinion).

BluePlanet

Amerika wrote: »

It really is all about the union money (in my opinion).

But i thought this wasn't about union busting, and was really about solving a budget crisis?

At least that little pretense has been dropped.

Amerika

BluePlanet wrote: »

But i thought this wasn't about union busting, and was really about solving a budget crisis?

At least that little pretense has been dropped.

No... for the union bosses, it seems to really be all about the dues money. For the Governor of WI, it is all about dealing with a budget deficit.

RichieC

It's all about stripping the rights of workers, the republicans get a lot of money from people wanting this, so they do.

It amazes me, every political issue that pops up in america they're guaranteed half will oppose and half will support, all they need to to is present it either as leftish or rightish and the people think no further!

Sean Hannity supports this! it must be something I'd support!

*heads off to brush up on talking points I can use on the interwebz*

Stripping workers rights should be an issue everyone who is not a squillionaire should oppose.

RichieC

Amerika wrote: »

No... for the union bosses, it seems to really be all about the dues money. For the Governor of WI, it is all about dealing with a budget deficit.

Sure it is... why aren't the police and fire unions being targeted then?

Amerika

RichieC wrote: »

Sure it is... why aren't the police and fire unions being targeted then?

Public safety! But I think they also should be targeted, and hopefully their collective bargaining on fringe benefits will also be reeled in over time.

The primary role of state governments deals with the three “ates,” which represents over 90% of most state expenditures... Educate, Medicate and Incarcerate. If the money isn’t there the states need to reduce costs. The governor is just doing his job, dealing with what they can and cannot afford. He isn’t trying to get rid of collective bargaining over wages, only fringe benefits. Also, police and firefighter unions are actually backing the teacher, correction officer, and other unions in this matter, which sort of negates any inclination of collusion.

Amerika

Hmmm... Democratic Congressman Mike Capuano from Massachusetts told a crowd in Boston on Tuesday rallying for Wisconsin union members that emails aren’t enough to show support and that it is time to “get a little bloody.”

And so they are... This is what a member of the CWA union did to a young girl who works for Washington D.C. based FreedomWorks. Does anybody think he will be prosecuted for assault, or will it just be ignored because he is a union member?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm_Fl3AszuU&feature=player_embedded

Manic Moran

Sure it is... why aren't the police and fire unions being targeted then?

Three possibilities come to my mind.

1) Divide and conquer. Go after the non-public-safety unions on their own, then go after the public safety unions.
2) Reward the public safety unions for supporting him.
3) They are of a different nature.

Of the three, the first is the hardest to prove. Until he actually goes after the public safety unions, there's no way of telling.
The second has a bit of a flaw in that most of the State's police unions actually opposed Gov Walker's election bid.
The third does have some merit. Unlike the Teacher's Union or the Sanitation Worker's Union (or whatever) police unions are a little more limited as to how much power they have: For example, police aren't allowed to strike. As a result, they aren't as big a problem to deal with at the negotiating table.

NTM

amacachi

Overheal wrote: »

I cant support the unions on this, sorry. A Public sector union that wants to bleed the taxpayer to do the same work and effectively eroding the value for dollar the education system provides.

I was under the impression that they were going along with the budgetary plans though?

RichieC

amacachi wrote: »

I was under the impression that they were going along with the budgetary plans though?

They are... but you wouldn't want to report that so much.

Einhard

Not gonna jump in here on either side of the issue, but I don't think liberals and democrats can legitimately castigate the Tea Party for their antics, if they use the same type of slogans and posters when protesting issues they disagree with. Makes it harder for the rest of us to argue against the likes of Hannity and Beck.

BluePlanet

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think liberals and democrats can legitimately castigate the Tea Party for their antics, if they use the same type of slogans and posters .

Are you referring to something specifically?

Manic Moran

Are you referring to something specifically?

Probably not specifically, but I'll wager he's talking about things like this.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703775704576162502077564930.html

Over the past several days, the liberal demonstrations in Wisconsin (bolstered by the national Democratic Party and President Obama's Organizing for America group) have included signs just as inflammatory as the ones that bothered the networks during the health care debate, including several showing Governor Scott Walker as Adolph Hitler. Others have likened Walker to Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin ("Scott Stalin") and recently deposed Egyptian autocrat Hosni Mubarak ("Walker = Mubarak").

Another protest sign drew a cross-hairs over a picture of Governor Walker's head, with the caption "Don't Retreat, Reload; Repeal Walker" — an obvious parallel to a Facebook map posted by Sarah Palin last year, although that much-criticized graphic placed the target sights on maps of congressional districts, not any politician's face.

NTM

20Cent

This Walker fella sounds like a right piece of work.


MADISON, Wis. -- Madison Police Chief Noble Wray wants answers from Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/26979885/detail.html

In a statement released Thursday, Wray said: “I spent a good deal of time overnight thinking about Governor Walker’s response, during his news conference yesterday, to the suggestion that his administration ‘thought about’ planting troublemakers among those who are peacefully protesting his bill. I would like to hear more of an explanation from Governor Walker as to what exactly was being considered, and to what degree it was discussed by his cabinet members. I find it very unsettling and troubling that anyone would consider creating safety risks for our citizens and law enforcement officers. Our department works hard dialoging with those who are exercising their First Amendment right, those from both sides of the issue, to make sure we are doing everything we can to ensure they can demonstrate safely. I am concerned that anyone would try to undermine these relationships. I have a responsibility to the community, and to the men and women of this department - who are working long hours protecting and serving this community – to find out more about what was being considered by state leaders.”

Manic Moran

20Cent wrote: »

This Walker fella sounds like a right piece of work.

You mean, he's a politician?

NTM

BluePlanet

Well my understanding is that the union membership have agreed to the pension changes etc, and the only outstanding issue is the" right to collectively bargain".
So from the pov of a budget correction, it sounds like all the pieces are in place.
Which makes this ultimately a union-busting exercise.

While i don't ordinarily support unions in the modern world, i absolutely defend peoples rights to one.

20Cent

Manic Moran wrote: »

You mean, he's a politician?

NTM

lol
Yes but a lot worse than most.
Once bought always bought.

Sgt. Sensible

Indiana Official: "Use Live Ammunition" Against Wisconsin Protesters.

On Saturday night, when Mother Jones staffers tweeted a report that riot police might soon sweep demonstrators out of the Wisconsin capitol building—something that didn't end up happening—one Twitter user sent out a chilling public response: "Use live ammunition."

From my own Twitter account, I confronted the user, JCCentCom. He tweeted back that the demonstrators were "political enemies" and "thugs" who were "physically threatening legally elected officials." In response to such behavior, he said, "You're damned right I advocate deadly force." He later called me a "typical leftist," adding, "liberals hate police."

Only later did we realize that JCCentCom was a deputy attorney general for the state of Indiana.

He's been sacked. The oddest thing for me was his comparing of union members to nazi brownshirts. The brownshirts fought street battles with members of the left wing parties and smashed up their meetings. Is he saying that Governor Walker is a latter day Ernst Thalmann? I don't think you want to do that sir.

Gallup Poll wrote:

(Reuters) - Most Americans oppose laws that would take away the collective bargaining power of public employee unions, as has been proposed in Wisconsin, Ohio and other states, according to a USA Today/Gallup Poll released on Wednesday.

The poll found that 61 percent would oppose a law in their state similar to the proposal currently sparking mass protests in Wisconsin, compared with 33 percent who would favor such a law.

If you support the teachers, you can order a pizza for them.

Manic Moran

Sgt. Sensible wrote: »

If you support the teachers, you can order a pizza for them.

Not a new concept. GIPizza has been delivering pizzas ordered by people in the US to troops in the Middle East for years.

The poll found that 61 percent would oppose a law in their state similar to the proposal currently sparking mass protests in Wisconsin, compared with 33 percent who would favor such a law.

The bigger issue is how many people in any individual State would support or oppose such a law in their State. That 60% of the 30 million California voters would oppose it is irrelevant to the (say) 51% of the 3 million Wisconsin voters who might support it, but will skew the nationwide numbers. The Nationwide figure is an interesting one, but totally useless for any practical purpose.

NTM

norbert64

We're screwed now anywho.
They have passed the bill, end of story
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi-assembly-gop-passes-walker-budget-in-surprise-vote----dems-chant-shame.php?ref=fpa

Amerika

norbert64 wrote: »

They have passed the bill, end of story

Not quite. The Assembly's vote only sends the bill on to the Senate, but those Democrats there are refusing to do their job and have fled to Illinois (channeling that line from Braveheart… RUN, HIDE!) in order to prevent a vote. No knowing when they will come back. Maybe if we’re lucky… never. And if government workers start to get pink slips because business can’t get done, they can thank the Democrats. I wager just about anything that the media will spin it to blame the Republicans. Sorry state of affairs when we can forecast media bias so accurately.

First step WI should do is refuse to pay salaries for the support staff for the MIA Democrats. No play, no pay. Thankfully I’ve not seen the term bandied about recently associated with those fleeing Democrats used here (I guess the Right truly does own the high ground).

Interesting how the Democrats have now become the party of NO!

As Charles Krauthammer puts it:

Real cuts to the federal budget? NO.
Entitlement reform? NO.
Tax reform? NO.
Breaking the corrupt and fiscally unsustainable symbiosis between public-sector unions and state governments? HELL, NO!

Sgt. Sensible

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not a new concept. GIPizza has been delivering pizzas ordered by people in the US to troops in the Middle East for years.

So what. I don't care if there's some place in Mianus Connecticut that's been delivering coffee and pie to scabs and Pinkertons since 1892. It's just a fantastic practical way for people all over the world to support the teachers.

The bigger issue is how many people in any individual State would support or oppose such a law in their State. That 60% of the 30 million California voters would oppose it is irrelevant to the (say) 51% of the 3 million Wisconsin voters who might support it, but will skew the nationwide numbers. The Nationwide figure is an interesting one, but totally useless for any practical purpose.

I am as wary of polls as anyone but Gallup have a little bit of experience in polling wouldn't you say? And they use methodologies designed to minimise the chance of results being skewed by various factors. I would certainly trust a professional outfit like Gallup somewhat more than some guy on a message board pulling figures out of his hole. Eg, the "80% to 90%" support for Walker mentioned on this thread earlier. So no, Gallup polls are not "totally useless" imo.

Link to Gallup site poll details.

Manic Moran

Sgt. Sensible wrote: »

It's just a fantastic practical way for people all over the world to support the teachers.

Just pointing out that it's not a new idea.

I am as wary of polls as anyone but Gallup have a little bit of experience in polling wouldn't you say? And they use methodologies designed to minimise the chance of results being skewed by various factors.

Read what I wrote again with a greater attention to detail.

I am quite willing to accept the veracity of Gallup's numbers. If they say that 61% of the people of the US would oppose a State law similar to Wisconsin's proposed one, then the chances are that somewhere around 61% of the people of the US actually would.

The point is that the number is completely useless. National surveys are irrelevant when it comes to State issues. Let's simplify it for the example.

Imagine that the US consists of two States. California and Wyoming. 30 million voters in California, 1 million and 1 voters in Wyoming. Wyoming is considering a law. Survey says that nationwide, 98% of voters (i.e 30.5 million) people would oppose a particular law. That does not obviate the possiblility that 50.1% of Wyomingans support the law, and they're the only people who count. The 30 million Californians are irrelevant but when drawing inferences, skew the numbers. The law could well have majority support in the State, regardless of what the nationwide figures say.

NTM

cheesehead

As long as poll numbers are being thrown around...the following is taken from The Dick Morris Poll on Wisconsin from February 24th. Taking into account the whole idea "every poll is loaded" and regardless of your take on Dick Morris personally (although he seems pretty good at reading the political tea leaves), here's the findings:

WISCONSIN POLL RESULTS

The Dick Morris Poll conducted a telephone survey among 409 likely Wisconsin voters. The survey has a margin of error of +- 4%.

Findings: Wisconsin voters break almost evenly on Governor Walker’s proposed reforms, supporting them by a margin of 51-47.

They support many aspects of the proposal by significant numbers:

VOTERS SUPPORT CHANGING THE BENEFITS TO STATE WORKERS, PAY, AND AUTOMATIC DEDUCTION OF UNION DUES

• By 74-18, they back making state employees pay more for their health insurance.
• By 79-16, they support asking state workers contribute more toward their pensions.
• By 54-34, Wisconsin voters support ending the automatic deduction of union dues from state paychecks and support making unions collect dues from each member.
• By 66-30, they back limiting state workers’ pay increases to the rate of inflation unless voters approve a higher raise by a public referendum.

VOTERS OPPOSE CHANGING COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENTS

On the issue of limiting collective bargaining to wage and benefit issues, however, they break with the Governor, opposing the proposal by 41-54.

If the issues to be taken off the bargaining table are related to giving schools flexibility to modify tenure, pay teachers based on merit, discharge bad teachers and promote good ones, however, they support such limits on collective bargaining by 58-38.

ANALYSIS: Voters back the principal of collective bargaining. But they are also willing to limit these negotiations so that they would not impede education reforms.