Wisconsin Protests

BluePlanet

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70954397&postcount=90

Amerika

Manic Moran wrote: »

We've been discussing this for about three pages now. Who can honestly say they know what the hell it is we've been discussing, as opposed to arguing general principles?

I plead the fifth.

Hope this helps.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20110216/GPG0101/110216041/Summary-of-Walker-s-budget-repair-bill

And straight from the horses mouth.

http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?prid=5622&locid=177

Manic Moran

BluePlanet wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70954397&postcount=90

Doesn't say what is happening with regard to the unions with the exception of one rather non-specific line.

Amerika's link seems better.

The bill would make various changes to limit collective bargaining for most public employees to wages. Total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by referendum.

Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union.

Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues. These changes take effect upon the expiration of existing contracts.

That doesn't seem too dramatic to me.

NTM

Amerika

Let’s face it... The battle in WI is just a precursor of things to come in just about every state.

As I noted earlier, we face similar problems in my home state. We are waiting for our new Governor to put forth his plans on March 8th. The former Governor, Fast Eddie, increased spending by 33 percent (twice the inflation rate) during his time in office. And 80% of budget costs are now dictated by legally mandated spending (thank you very much). So in two years we are looking at a deficit of over $6 billion, primarily because of his 2001 pension increase legislation, unless the hard choices are made right now.

Speculation of what our current Republican Governor will be proposing:

Privatizing Public Services – unclear at this point of what it involves, but it just might include the selling off of PA’s liquor stores, realizing a gain of $2 billion; privatizing the PA Turnpike; or the selling off some state-owned properties such as state parks and museums.

Education Funding Cuts (This will become our WI battle) - The state will spend less on local school districts, causing a direct effect on local taxpayers who will need to fund the difference if school districts expect to keep current staffing and pension levels. But it won’t happen!!! The local education battles will get downright ugly, as 75% percent of budget costs for all local school districts pertains just to staff salary and benefits. The taxpayers will reject calls for tax increases in order to make up the 20 percent cut in their state funding, just to pay inflated salaries and fringe benefits of teachers.

Social Programs - The state will likely cut back its funding of unemployment compensation and health insurance programs, causing increased payroll deductions on unemployment. Another is eliminating Fast Eddies WAM (Walking Around Money) to the tune of $100 million.

Failing to act now, might just mean the state would have to take the unprecedented move of declaring bankruptcy in order to renegotiate all it's dealings. And without having to make the tough choices now, bankruptcy looks better and better every day.

cheesehead

Manic Moran - been away a couple of days, just saw your question regarding Wisconsin's importance in the 2012 state/federal election cycle.

To my knowledge, Wisconsin does not vote early in the cycle. However, as Amerika alludes to above, the Wisconsin Battle is a prelude of coming battles in most other states. There's an old saying in national politics: as goes California, so goes the nation. In this case, I believe the national policy folks are viewing the 2012 election cycle: as goes Wisconsin, so goes the nation.

Realistically, it's the Midwestern Republican Governors who are out front leading the charge on these very important national issues (NJ Governor Christie would also be included on this list). So the National Republicans are viewing Wisconsin as the litmus test, while the Democrats/Unions are viewing Wisconsin as the Firewall. For full disclosure, the email I received regarding Wisconsin as a major battle-ground state in the 2012 election cylce came from a (mid-level) employee of the Republican National Committee. He didn't go into details, but it certainly appears they are targeting the state. Based on the number of special-interest Pro-Budget Repair Bill/Anti-Budget Repair Bill attack television ads already inundating our local Wisconsin airwaves the last two weeks, the money spigot has definitely been turned on. It feels like a full-blown election season around here.

To lighten the mood, don't know if you happened to see Jimmy Fallon/Brian Williams "slow-jam" the Wisconsin news. Pretty good stuff, worth waiting through the ad that precedes it:

http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/video/slow-jam-the-news-wisconsin-protests-3211/1308471/?__cid=thefilter

Amerika

Time for an update… dontcha think?

The Supreme Court has now issued a ruling upholding Walker’s collective-bargaining law, and overturning a Dane County judge whom had struck down the legislation.

As a result, protests continue at the WI capital, but the crowds are only a small fraction of what we saw earlier this year. It appears only the lunatics remain committed (pun intended), as a American Red Cross blood drive had to leave the capitol because of the chaos caused by the current brand of protesters.

Alas, the college students have gone home, with the lure of summer vacation and those non-union summer jobs being just too great.

And ahhh… the public school teachers don’t seem so interested now since school isn’t in session, and they won’t be paid with their fake sick doctor slips.

But fear not… the union protests will continue, such as this shameless union tactic of disrupting a Special Olympics event.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcuqM1LEi5c

Makes you proud of our unions, doesn’t it?

Overheal

State Supreme or Federal Supreme? Or Meat Supreme?

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

State Supreme or Federal Supreme? Or Meat Supreme?

LOL.. that's sort of like that question given to Herman Cain at the GOP debate: Deep Dish or Thin Crust?

WI Supreme Court.

Overheal

They asked that?

Incidentally I couldn't vote for a thin crust president. Deep dish/thick stack for life.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

They asked that?

Incidentally I couldn't vote for a thin crust president. Deep dish/thick stack for life.

Then Herman Cain's your candidate... he responded to the question "DEEP DISH."

cheesehead

At least it's not New Jersey (my native land), where a union official just satisfied a variant of Godwin's Law (see link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

This is, of course, after a NJ educational official sent the following "prayer" to thousands of education union member:

“Dear Lord this year you have taken away my favorite actor, Patrick Swayze, my favorite actress, Farrah Fawcett, my favorite singer, Michael Jackson, and my favorite salesman Billy Mays. I just wanted to let you know that Chris Christie is my favorite governor.”

Of course, the vitriol can be just as strong coming from the other side. Just ask Gabby Giffords. It's equal opportunity madness out there.

Amerika

cheesehead wrote: »

Of course, the vitriol can be just as strong coming from the other side. Just ask Gabby Giffords. It's equal opportunity madness out there.

Granted there is some vitriol on the other political side, but using the Gabby Giffords incident as representative, is rather disingenuous. Jared Loughner, a registered Independent, was mentally ill and had displayed hatred towards politicians from both parties.

Seemingly forgotten in the tragedy is the story of the federal judge, chief justice John Roll, who served on the United States District Court for the District of Arizona from 1991 until his death in 2011, and as chief judge of that court from 2006 to 2011. A Republican, appointed by George HW Bush, judge Roll showed up at Giffords’s event to thank her for trying to help the overtaxed courts. Judge Roll was shot in the back and killed by Loughner after pushing down and shielding Ron Barber, a staffer for Giffords who had just been shot.

And in his honor, our leader replaced his position as chief justice with a Democrat, Roslyn O. Silver, who was appointed to the bench by Bill Clinton.

cheesehead

I will grant you the mental illness of the shooter, but I won't back down from my sincere point of view the political climate in Arizona did not help matters. To say Jared Loughner was mentally ill on one side (implying he was not fully responsible for his actions) and that he was a rational "independent" capable of vitriol towards all politicians, on the other side, could be seen as disingenuous.

The fact of the matter: this country is deeply divided. Call it a cultural war or whatever one wants. It's not productive. In my view it's impossible to defend either side - the unions likening politicians to Nazis or the birthers hung-up on conspiracy. Where have you gone Tip O'Neill and Ronnie Reagan?

Amerika

Oh my, it looks like the Republicans were right again after all (Oh the horrors!). At least this Wisconsin school district has benefited greatly from the law to limit collective bargaining for public teachers’ unions. Any doubt this success story won’t be repeated in school district after school district in WI?
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/07/05/collective-bargaining-limitations-lead-to-school-improvements-in-one-wisconsin-district/

gargleblaster

cheesehead wrote: »

Where have you gone Tip O'Neill and Ronnie Reagan?

Wait, what? Do you know who Lee Atwater is?

Appealing to the days of Reagan as some kind of a call to return to civility is about as unbelievable a statement as I've ever heard.



Also, I hope people are aware that before the idiots in NJ passed arouned the "Dear Lord" idiocy about Chris Christie, that it started out as being about Ahmadinejad, and then it was said about Obama (the most successful version, the facebook page about it has over a million fans). Let's not do this pretend pollyanna BS and ignore the origin of the thing.


smh

Amerika

Remember all the “Koch Brothers” demonizing by the Democrats during the Wisconsin collective bargaining brouhaha?

And the hate of the Koch Brothers continues even today by the Democrat party.

Now, can you believe this... The Democrat Senatorial Campaign Committee is looking for substantial donations from them?

Is there no shame?

You can’t make this stuff up.

http://www.kochfacts.com/kf/letter-to-senator-patty-murray-chair-democratic-senatorial-campaign-committee/

Amerika

“Regrets, I've had a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course;
Each careful step along the byway,
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.”

As the recall election in WI nears it’s close, it looks like Governor Scott Walker will be vindicated.

The most recent poll by Marquette University Law school shows Scott Walker leading Democratic Tom Barrett by 7 points with just 6 days to go. Apparently Act 10, which limited collective bargaining for most of WI’s unionized public employees, has saved taxpayers more than $1 billion in it’s first year alone... all without major layoffs, without major tax increases or without major cuts to services. Woo Hoo!
http://www.wisconsinreporter.com/exclusive-analysis-finds-wisconsins-act-10-saving-taxpayers-big

The DNC is now apparently admitting defeat in this boondoggle recall. They are now insisting that a loss for the Democratic candidate in the recall election won’t have any implications in the presidential election. Hmmm... Rather odd since we’ve been hearing for quite some time now that the DNC considered the recall election a “test run” for the presidential race. Can you smell desperation?

Also in other good news, Moveon.org is warning us that it might have pull the plug on key campaigns to help in the reelection of President Obama and Senate Democrats like Elizabeth Warren in Massachusetts, or help the recall fight against Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, if it doesn’t get $5 from its 7 million members. SO SAVE YOUR MONEY... GO BUY A BEER OR TWO INSTEAD!

And one other bit of good news, Ed Shultz of MSNBC predicts that if Walker wins the recall election and Mitt Romney wins this presidential election, there’ll never be another Democratic president in our lifetime! We can only hope Ed, we can only hope!

Matt Holck

time will tell

Amerika

Path to prosperity:

1. Retain WI Governor Walker, and Republican control of WI state Senate [ X ]

2. Elect Mitt Romney to POTUS [ ]

3. Gain Republican control of the US Senate [ ]

bnt

Yikes. The media and the polls said one thing, but the voters of Wisconsin said something else entirely. If this isn't a cue for Obama to wake up and smell the coffee, what is? If he isn't on his game from now on, in future years his name will be mentioned alongside that of Carter rather than Clinton.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hooradiation

Wisconsin gets the Governor it deserves.

Channel Zero

hooradiation wrote: »

Wisconsin gets the Governor it deserves.

Wisconsin gets suckered by infestation of corporate lucre in its political process more like. The system is to blame. Not the voters.

matthew8

Channel Zero wrote: »

Wisconsin gets suckered by infestation of corporate lucre in its political process more like. The system is to blame. Not the voters.

The unions got what they deserved. You recall a governor if he's a crook or made a huge fkup. They recalled Walker because they felt he wasn't doing a good job. That's not on.

20Cent

matthew8 wrote: »

The unions got what they deserved. You recall a governor if he's a crook or made a huge fkup. They recalled Walker because they felt he wasn't doing a good job. That's not on.

He could be facing indictment charges for campaign contributions hopefully this will go ahead. Also he didn't end collective bargaining for the police or firefighters because they supported him in his campaign. The mistake the other unions made was not endorsing him since Walker is clearly for sale. Don't know why the freedom brigade are so happy about the right to collective bargaining being abolished its a very regressive step.

stretchtex

From where do these folks in the public sector unions derive this sense of entitlement? My mother scratched and clawed and worked to near the age of 70 and saved the little she made in a private account. I guess these lefties thought they could post up in front of the state Capitol and wrap on some drums and everyone would come around to their way of thinking.

20Cent

stretchtex wrote: »

From where do these folks in the public sector unions derive this sense of entitlement? My mother scratched and clawed and worked to near the age of 70 and saved the little she made in a private account. I guess these lefties thought they could post up in front of the state Capitol and wrap on some drums and everyone would come around to their way of thinking.

Wanting decent pay and conditions for their work, how dare they!

Channel Zero

stretchtex wrote: »

From where do these folks in the public sector unions derive this sense of entitlement?

There is no sense of entitlement. Other than an entitlement to a decent and benefits that is.

From what i've read of it, this whole Wisconsin Koch-funded PR campaign was a distilled microcosm of what's going on in the rest of the country.

Divide and conquer. Worker against worker.

Pit the ordinary private sector workers (who have already seen their rights, wages and conditions stripped away for 30 years), pit them against the public sector workers (whose wages now in comparison are of course better because of strong unions that negotiated increments to keep them in line with inflation).


It's important to blame the right people. The real issue here is the HUGE DROP in private sector wage growth. That's not the fault of the public unions now is it?

It's the corporate and big business interests that have already decimated the private unions; now they're going after the public ones.

Amerika

Forget about collective bargaining and all the other gobbledygook we’ve been hearing about for the past year, the real issue IMO behind the whole recall effort was that the new law ended automatic government collection of public union dues. Without this unions knew their stranglehold on the state and local governments, and taxpayers, would be over. Union membership became voluntary with the law, and union members finally had a choice whether or not they wished to belong to the union. And since the law was introduced, AFSCME has lost more than 50% of its membership.

SeanW

20Cent wrote: »

Wanting decent pay and conditions for their work, how dare they!

Twice the average pay in the State of Wisconsin, zero accountability for performace, zero competition, oh and a taxpayer (i.e. the person who's only making 1/2 what they do in a real workplace) that resembles a milk cow that can always be milked at any time for any reason?

Those poor teachers are suffering so badly under the jackboot of tyrants and the evil of corporations, so much so that their current entitlements (that a lot of us consider highly luxurious) barely qualifies as "decent pay and conditions"

:rolleyes:

It would be funny but for the fact that so many "useful idiots" agree with you.

SeanW

Channel Zero wrote: »

Pit the ordinary private sector workers (who have already seen their rights, wages and conditions stripped away for 30 years), pit them against the public sector workers (whose wages now in comparison are of course better because of strong unions that negotiated increments to keep them in line with inflation).

All the unions in the world won't help you if your job is unviable. No amount of unionisation could prevent a manufacturer from relocating to the Southern U.S. or even to China, and in some cases they've actually helped the process by demanding yet more money at the wrong time.

But the public sector usually has a monopoly in its field, and a lot of political clout behind its unions, who seem to think the rest of society is a milking cow, so they can enjoy far better pay and conditions (like zero accountability) than the people who are paying their salaries.

It already is worker against worker - if Scott Walkers plan had been scotched, the poor and middle class taxpayers would have had to foot the bill for closing the budget deficit.

It's important to blame the right people. The real issue here is the HUGE DROP in private sector wage growth. That's not the fault of the public unions now is it?

To the extent that their incessant cries of victimhood and demands for more money drain the private taxpayers and reduce of the quality of services like education, yes you can blame them.

But there's a little country in Asia called "China" which you might have heard of, that is also responsible to a very large degree for America's current difficulties. There are other structural issues too such as the size of government, the amount of regulation it puts on individuals and small businesses and so on.

20Cent

SeanW wrote: »

All the unions in the world won't help you if your job is unviable. No amount of unionisation could prevent a manufacturer from relocating to the Southern U.S. or even to China, and in some cases they've actually helped the process by demanding yet more money at the wrong time.

But the public sector usually has a monopoly in its field, and a lot of political clout behind its unions, who seem to think the rest of society is a milking cow, so they can enjoy far better pay and conditions (like zero accountability) than the people who are paying their salaries.

It already is worker against worker - if Scott Walkers plan had been scotched, the poor and middle class taxpayers would have had to foot the bill for closing the budget deficit.

To the extent that their incessant cries of victimhood and demands for more money drain the private taxpayers and reduce of the quality of services like education, yes you can blame them.

But there's a little country in Asia called "China" which you might have heard of, that is also responsible to a very large degree for America's current difficulties. There are other structural issues too such as the size of government, the amount of regulation it puts on individuals and small businesses and so on.

Schools, policing and public services can't be outsourced overseas.

Channel Zero

SeanW wrote: »

All the unions in the world won't help you if your job is unviable.

That's the crux of the problem alright. This so-called 'unviability' of jobs.

Of course when these jobs are labelled as 'unviable', in many cases they have been perfectly viable, but if they can be transferred to, say, a Mexican sweatshop for a slightly bigger profit margin, then they become 'unviable'.
Offshoring and NAFTA re-location has destroyed millions of these 'unviable' jobs, and the corporate threats of offshoring/re-location has destroyed the wages and conditions of those that are left. Great system isn't it?

To the extent that their incessant cries of victimhood and demands for more money drain the private taxpayers and reduce of the quality of services like education, yes you can blame them.

No you can not blame them. Oh dear. You shifted the goalposts there to facilitate your reply. That's not what i said. To repeat for clarity, the huge drop in private sector wage growth is not the fault of the public unions.

But there's a little country in Asia called "China" which you might have heard of, that is also responsible to a very large degree for America's current difficulties.

Yes i've heard of "China".
So the Chinese people are now also directly responsible to a very large degree for America's current difficulties? That's a new one.

There are other structural issues too such as the size of government, the amount of regulation it puts on individuals and small businesses and so on.

Big government and regulation. Gotcha.

Ok let's see. What have we got here in your list of things that are to blame for America's current difficulties:

• The public sector unions
• China
• The government (too big)
• Too many regulations

So it wasn't the financial meltdown of 2008 caused by de-regulation at all then?
Silly me! Of course it wasn't.

The mind boggles.

SeanW

Channel Zero wrote: »

That's the crux of the problem alright. This so-called 'unviability' of jobs.

Of course when these jobs are labelled as 'unviable', in many cases they have been perfectly viable, but if they can be transferred to, say, a Mexican sweatshop for a slightly bigger profit margin, then they become 'unviable'.
Offshoring and NAFTA re-location has destroyed millions of these 'unviable' jobs, and the corporate threats of offshoring/re-location has destroyed the wages and conditions of those that are left. Great system isn't it?

No, it's not a great system and I don't like it any more than you do. But it's the people stuck in that system that are paying taxes to fund the public services. Shouldn't the public services adapt to the limited means available from the poor and reduced middle classes or should those poor and middle classes pay more and more from its own scare resources to keep the public services in a cocoon?

Yes i've heard of "China".
So the Chinese people are now also directly responsible to a very large degree for America's current difficulties? That's a new one.

A lot of American factories went to China, or hadn't you noticed? They're part of the problem you identified above, why would you pay an American worker a living wage for a full time job when you can get a Chinese person to work 18 hours a day for peanuts?

Ok let's see. What have we got here in your list of things that are to blame for America's current difficulties:

• The public sector unions
• China
• The government (too big)
• Too many regulations

Yep.

So it wasn't the financial meltdown of 2008 caused by de-regulation at all then?

1. You're confusing Wall St regulation with that affecting small and medium enterprises. De-regulation should focus on the SME sector.
2. Even the repeal of Glass-Stegall on its own didn't cause the meltdown of 2008, it was the implicit guarantee of big financial firms that gave them a moral hazard. If the government had not been officially - or unofficially - on the hook to pick up trading losses from AIG, Goldman etc it's quite likely these companies would have acted more responsibly.

In any case I have a rather dim view of Wall St. so if it took a forced breakup of "too big to fail" companies to ensure the taxpayer or the Fed never had to pick up another stupid gambling debt, that would be fine by me.

Amerika

Interesting to see the various spins offered regarding the recall defeat, but bottom line I believe what we are seeing on a national scale is the taxpayers have simply had enough of seeing public sector unions living large at their expense.

hooradiation

Amerika wrote: »

Interesting to see the various spins offered regarding the recall defeat, but bottom line I believe what we are seeing on a national scale is the taxpayers have simply had enough of seeing public sector unions living large at their expense.

Yeah, fuck the people to teach our children, right?
Damn moochers.

cristoir

The Unions were idiotic to wage this battle. They have now built a grassroots machine of Conservatives that wasn't in Wisconsin before. So much so that Mitt Romney may now consider this state worth fighting for in November.

They have damaged Obama's chances for re-election and for what? A humiliation that the DNC warned them would happen. I say this as someone who leans Democratic.

Overheal

hooradiation wrote: »

Yeah, fuck the people to teach our children, right?
Damn moochers.

Not that our education is a bastion of do-gooders. I work with people in Retail who have their Masters and they can't find teaching positions because some teachers are hanging out past retirement age. But, I believe the big issue in Wisconsin was the Union's insistence on union-backed insurors which was essentially a taxmoney circle-jerk.

Channel Zero

SeanW wrote: »

No, it's not a great system and I don't like it any more than you do.

Then why are you defending it by using misleading stats and deflection?

Matt Holck

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

the democratic won the state senate in that election

how?