Knocked off Bike by stoopid idiot

VanhireBoys

Guys
Just a small rant.. I was coming home after a training run of about 35 miles. I knew there was a car behind so I ride about 2" off the kerb.. This Nissan Primera (green with the LH back wheel trim missing) starts to overtake and an oncoming car approaches.. She cuts in on top of me and I am pinned between the kerb and car leaning in...... I try to gather the my balance again but the stoopid c**t brakes and I lose my balance...!

I end up on the road still in the pedals.. The stoopid c**t just drives on. A kindly group of lads come out and help me up again... Not a mark on the bike but I am black, blue and road rash

At least my bars scraped the LH rear door ...;)

Why do people use cyclists for target practice ?

spokeydokey

A lot of drivers will drive straight over a cyclist rather than put on the brakes first.
I'll say it before someone else does, give yourself more than 2'' room from now on.
Hope you're able to get back on your bike and enjoy the weather soon.

Chips Lovell

spokeydokey wrote: »

I'll say it before someone else does, give yourself more than 2'' room from now

This is good advice. Hugging the kerb will leave you no room for manouvere. In some instances, it only encourages motorists to overtake dangerously. That's not to say you should ride in the middle of the lane, but giving yourself 1 to 1.5 metres is prudent.

seamus

VanhireBoys wrote: »

I knew there was a car behind so I ride about 2" off the kerb.

It's an easy enough mistake to make.

If you have to squeeze into the kerb for the car to get past, then there's not enough room. Maintain your road position (minimum 2 feet) and force them to move to the other side of the road if they want to overtake.
There's a specific part of my commute which is a narrow road (no foothpath on my side), with a solid white line going around an obscured bend. I make a point of moving out and cycling right in the middle of the lane at this point because people have in the past attempted to overtake me on this bend, against oncoming traffic. Which just isn't possible.

Bruising and road rash heal quickly and cheaply. Broken bikes don't
Hope you're back on the wheels soon.

Dr_Colossus

Agreed with above posts, I initially read the below as 2' rather than 2" and therefore imagined the driver completely pushing you off the road since she'd have to cross the centre line to overtake. 2" is asking for trouble as cars try to squeeze past on narrow roads.
She's still completely in the wrong however and is supposed to allow 1.5m I think in overtaking. The fact then that she actually made contact and didn't stop is even worse so if you managed to get the number plate report her for dangerous driving.

Beasty

Hope you're OK and back on the bike soon. I'll echo what everyoe else has said about leaving yourself plenty of room for manouver on the inside.

I would definitely report this - you have the car model and colour, and what I am guessing is now a distinguishing mark on the vehicle which will tie-in to some bike damage (or at least paint scraped off the car). You may well come across the same vehicle again, and could get her number even if the guards can't track her down now. If the lads that helped you can be tracked down also they are presumably witnesses to what happened?

newmug

In this case, the car was clearly wrong.

But..............

Why do cyclists never think of braking? You said the car braked and this upset your balance. Why weren't you in the process of braking the minute the car began to pass you out? This way the car would have gone past you quicker, and although its a pain in the hole, you wouldnt be black and blue now!

I find that, in general, cyclists seem to think they're invincible, and they have this sense of entitlement that they should be treated as an engine-propelled vehicle on the road. Thats all fine and well, but a tonne of steel doesn't care about your rights! And you cant cycle from the grave! Practicalities first lads, should's and should not's later.

kmick

Next time cycle in the middle of the lane and protect yourself no matter how much they beep.

DirkVoodoo

Yup to all the above. Any time I have moved in closer to the kerb out of some misplaced sense "not to get in the way", cars just take it an an invitation to squeeze past.

There is one part of my route home, narrow road with an obstructed view on a left hand bend where cars will still try and overtake. The left hand lane is badly maintained close to the kerb so the potential for clipping a car and coming down is quite high if they attempt to pass.

I just move out into the middle of the lane before the bend and move back in after. It works. It doesn't delay anyone and it doesn't result in an accident. Anyone who says I am "obstructing" traffic by performing such a maneuver needs their head checked.

Tenzor07

In the U.K according to their "Highway code", the primary riding position is in the centre of the lane (the most left-hand lane on multi-lane roads).
The secondary riding position is about a metre to the left of moving traffic, but not closer than 0.5 metres to the edge of the road (closer would mean no room for manoeuvre in emergencies and also riding over glass and other kinds of road debris).

Motorists need to be conscious of the fact that a cyclist is a vulnerable road user when approaching from behind or overtaking and not to be treated as a road sign or lamppost.

petethedrummer

newmug wrote: »

they have this sense of entitlement that they should be treated as an engine-propelled vehicle on the road.

So cars are more entitled to be on the road? Is that it? Just a simple yes or no will suffice.

Lumen

It's fine to cycle close to the kerb if the lane is wide enough for cars to pass without conflict with oncoming traffic.

What you don't want to do is allow them to perform stupid overtakes when the lane is narrow and the road ahead is not positively clear.

So, move out for blind bends, blind brows etc, or when there is lots of oncoming traffic and a narrow lane.

Also, always have an exit strategy. This is easiest with a soft verge; with a hard high kerb there is no way out unless you're extremely good a sideways bunnyhopping.

Raam

newmug wrote: »

but a tonne of steel doesn't care about your rights!

Notwithstanding the preventative actions that any cyclist should take, the person in control of this tonne of steel has a duty of care which they must adhere to.

Jawgap

newmug wrote: »

....And you cant cycle from the grave!
.

I bet Jens could.......

I know I'm not invincible - I also know it's not a hierarchy on the road - cyclists, motorists etc they all have to obey the same rules and laws including the one about safe overtaking.

I also know not to feed trolls, but sometimes they just sit there with their gobs open waiting to have stuff lobbed into it.

Hermy

petethedrummer wrote: »

So cars are more entitled to be on the road? Is that it? Just a simple yes or no will suffice.

Raam wrote: »

Notwithstanding the preventative actions that any cyclist should take, the person in control of this tonne of steel has a duty of care which they must adhere to.

Surely your own safety comes before any consideration of who's right and whose wrong?

drfrank

The driver of the vehicle has committed an offence in failing to stop at the scene of an accident !!

Definately report it !

BTW does anyone have any experience of the Insurance Company in Ireland that covers cyclists ? Is there any policy for personal injury ?

Raam

Hermy wrote: »

Surely your own safety comes before any consideration of who's right and whose wrong?

It sure does. I don't think either of the statements is counter to that.

petethedrummer

drfrank wrote: »

BTW does anyone have any experience of the Insurance Company in Ireland that covers cyclists ? Is there any policy for personal injury ?

http://www.cyclesure.ie/

blorg

That is shocking, especially her driving off- that is a hit and run. She would have no way of knowing how badly you might have been hurt. I hope you report this and the gardai prosecute. Take photos of all your road rash/injuries now and get a medical report; I would also be after her for damages.

VanhireBoys

Thanks a mill lads for the good advice... ! I will be riding at least 2 foot off the kerb in future and I wont give a toot who is behind or how much they beep .. ! I am back in the saddle and it didnt put me off

As they once said on the Hill Street Blues "Lets be careful out there"

chakattack

newmug wrote: »

In this case, the car was clearly wrong.

But..............

Why do cyclists never think of braking? You said the car braked and this upset your balance. Why weren't you in the process of braking the minute the car began to pass you out? This way the car would have gone past you quicker, and although its a pain in the hole, you wouldnt be black and blue now!

I find that, in general, cyclists seem to think they're invincible, and they have this sense of entitlement that they should be treated as an engine-propelled vehicle on the road. Thats all fine and well, but a tonne of steel doesn't care about your rights! And you cant cycle from the grave! Practicalities first lads, should's and should not's later.

Do you brake everytime a truck over takes you in your car?

If the OP had a greater "sense of entitlement" (as you put it), i.e. taking a safe and assertive road position this accident mightn't have happened.

redmaxi

That C**t should be given a vicious beating. Anyone who can knock someone down, leave them for dead and drive off seriously deserves one.

Beasty

redmaxi wrote: »

That C**t should be given a vicious beating. Anyone who can knock someone down, leave them for dead and drive off seriously deserves one.

Whatever your views on the driver in question, no advocating violence here.

Thanks

Beasty

newmug

chakattack wrote: »

Do you brake everytime a truck over takes you in your car?

If the OP had a greater "sense of entitlement" (as you put it), i.e. taking a safe and assertive road position this accident mightn't have happened.

Of course I do. Do you not? I value my life more than my sense of entitlement and fairness. Remember the saying, Might is Right! And by the way, I said in the very first line of my post that in this case I think the OP was in the right, and I agree with those other posters about reporting the driver. The OP didnt do anything wrong, and shouldnt have suffered the way he did. But I'm just saying, in general, if its a toss up between principals or safety, always put safety first.

PCPhoto

OP ...sorry to hear of the idiot driver in your case, I had a similar experience today.... while driving my car !!

pulling out of a parking space (from behind another parked vehicle) on westmoreland street in Dublin (one-way street), I'm looking left for oncoming traffic, watching my mirrors and looking over my shoulder for my blindspot .... WHAM ! ... cyclist going down a one-way street the wrong way !!! (he's lucky I didnt pull out of the parking space fast - he would have been sitting on the windscreen.

theres just idiots out there - cars, bikes (cycle), motorbikes, taxi's, vans, trucks ....for me the problems on our roads are caused by two types of person ....ignorant or stupid (those that break the laws are either ignorant of the rules or stupid enough not to know them)

carthoris

newmug wrote: »

Do you brake everytime a truck over takes you in your car?

Of course I do. Do you not?

You have an unusual view of overtaking. Most people would not brake when their are being overtaken as the onus is on the overtaker to perform the manouver in a safe manner which does not impede the person being overtaken:
http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/good-driving-practice/overtaking.html

newmug wrote: »

I value my life more than my sense of entitlement and fairness.

Being overtaken should not put your life at risk. If the overtaker undertakes the action so poorly as to put your life at risk then yes - taking action to prevent makes sense. But suggesting that everyone brakes when being overtaken then removes the responsibility from the overtaker and puts it onto the person who is being overtaken. "It is not my fault that I hit you - I was overtaking - you should have braked/pulled in/gotten off the road,". And that is just wrong.

newmug wrote: »

Remember the saying, Might is Right!

This brings to mind what Uncle Ben said - "With great power (i.e might) comes great responsability"

smokiebeverage

I say this as a person who hasn't been on a bike in years, but when I did I was on it 200 miles a week, now I'd have a heart attack if I got on one! Drivers in general see cyclists as an obstacle not another road user. Do yourselves a favor and take up position that indicates your in the lane, feck them if they have to slow down. The road is for everyone, I know they give the road tax line, but its the cars/trucks that damage the road surface not bikes. I have a pain in me a*** with drivers beeping at bike users cos they are 'in the way'. If it was a cop on the bike i'll bet they wouldn't beep or make a stupid move. I had a nob beep me tonight because I slowed a little to let a motor bike out onto the motorway, which really annoyed me. Saying that I then slowed to about 60 which really annoyed him and I felt better! Look after yourselves and use the road to its full extent, the 60 seconds it takes me to get past safely won't kill me!

07Lapierre

"if u had the only car (bicycle) in the world, u could drive(cycle) as u please. But u Haven't, so u Can't".... Sums it really.

leeroybrown

newmug wrote: »

Why do cyclists never think of braking? You said the car braked and this upset your balance. Why weren't you in the process of braking the minute the car began to pass you out? This way the car would have gone past you quicker, and although its a pain in the hole, you wouldnt be black and blue now!

What? When being overtaken any road user should simply maintain their speed and road position. Speaking as both a driver and cyclist any other action is unpredictable and dangerous. The OP should have defended their road position better while showing reasonable courtesy to other road users.

seamus

newmug wrote: »

Of course I do. Do you not?

If I braked every time a vehicle overtook me, I'd never get home

As others have pointed out, making any unnecessary change to your speed or road position while being overtaken is irresponsible. The overtaking driver has the responsibility of completing the manouver, you have no obligation (morally or legally) to "assist" him because it is impossible to indicate your intentions to that driver.
His brain has mapped out the parameters of the manouver and he is completing it on that basis. Making any change to your position will affect his plan. In general, nothing happens, he adjust and finishes the manouver.
At worst, he could panic when you brake: Imagine he's checking his mirror mid-manouver and he notices out of the corner of his eye that you've hit the brakes. He panics, assuming that you've spotted something up ahead which he missed while he was looking in his mirror, and in reflex he slams on the brakes.

Yes, it's a made-up scenario, but ultimately if you do nothing, then you cannot possibly distract the overtaking driver.

I'm as guilty as everyone else of squeezing in towards the kerb on the odd occasion to allow someone to pass. I usually do it when it's a large vehicle who has been waiting patiently behind me for some time. I take the risk even though I know I shouldn't
In general I will actually take a little more road space when there is traffic behind me to force them to cross the white line if they want to overtake.

cdaly_

seamus wrote: »

I'm as guilty as everyone else of squeezing in towards the kerb on the odd occasion to allow someone to pass. I usually do it when it's a large vehicle who has been waiting patiently behind me for some time.

In that circumstance, I find a safe place and stop to let them pass. Only had to do it 3 or 4 times...

Hermy

leeroybrown wrote: »

The OP should have defended their road position better while showing reasonable courtesy to other road users.

This is getting ridiculous. How do you defend your road position against a tonne of automobile? The 'by the book' road position doesn't matter a damn if the driver of the car doesn't see you, doesn't care about you or doesn't have the common sense necessary to drive safely.

monument

Hermy wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous. How do you defend your road position against a tonne of automobile? The 'by the book' road position doesn't matter a damn if the driver of the car doesn't see you, doesn't care about you or doesn't have the common sense necessary to drive safely.

Stay out away from the edge of the road. It's not ridiculous at all.

Yes, road positioning does matter. Just see all the posters supporting it if you don't believe the books which do the same.

It may sound counter-intuitive, but when you're hugging the kerb a driver is more likely to try to push by where there's not enough room. On the other hand, where there's not enough room to pass safely and you cycle away from the kerb the driver is highly unlikely to mow you down.

Increased visibility also comes with road positioning.

johnam

newmug wrote: »

In this case, the car was clearly wrong.

But..............

Why do cyclists never think of braking? You said the car braked and this upset your balance. Why weren't you in the process of braking the minute the car began to pass you out? This way the car would have gone past you quicker, and although its a pain in the hole, you wouldnt be black and blue now!

I find that, in general, cyclists seem to think they're invincible, and they have this sense of entitlement that they should be treated as an engine-propelled vehicle on the road. Thats all fine and well, but a tonne of steel doesn't care about your rights! And you cant cycle from the grave! Practicalities first lads, should's and should not's later.

What a load of Bull.... Cyclists are meant to be treated the same any other vehicle on the road. If you are driving in your car and someone overtakes you, do you hit the brakes? No! This car should not have overtaken if there wasn't enough space or time to do so. When over taking, the car should be in the opposite lane, not just squeezing past in the same lane as the cyclist.

I had a similar experience today without the fall. I had my 2 year old daughter in a front mounted seat, and a car squeezed past me me as I approached a roundabout, and then proceeded to mount the kerb as they tried to squeeze inside a car in the right hand lane. Needless to say, I hit the back window of the car a smack with my hand, before planting my feet on the ground to stop myself falling. The driver gave me a dumb look like I shouldn't have been on the road in the first place. Really wish that junction had Garda CCTV on it, as I would have gone straight to the local cop shop and reported it.

Cyclists have the same right to be on the road as any motorist, its just a pity motorist don't seem to see it that way. I think I will start recording number plates of stupid drivers and pass them on to the guards, a few gentle reminders on the rules of the road wouldn't go astray. Saying that, a lot of cyclist could also do with the same reminder. (overtaking on inside, jumping lights, cycling the wrong way down one way streets etc will eventually get you killed)

BostonB

Hermy wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous. How do you defend your road position against a tonne of automobile? The 'by the book' road position doesn't matter a damn if the driver of the car doesn't see you, doesn't care about you or doesn't have the common sense necessary to drive safely.

If you think like that you'd never cycle at all.

tomasrojo

Primary position has the added advantage that if the motorist approaching from behind still tries to overtake stupidly, you have a lot of extra space on your left to steer into to avoid him. If you stay close to the kerb and the motorist passes you too closely, you have no room to manoeuvre.

austinbyrne21

Just looking for some opinions...

I'm a motorist and (try to be) a cyclist. When driving behind a cyclist I wait for a safe place to pass but I sometimes get the impression that the cyclist in question just wants me to hurry up and pass them, putting me under pressure. Now, I don't drive right behind them revving like a tool (like I've witnessed while cycling myself) but give them the same space I would a slow car in front of me.

Anyway, the opinions I'm after - are some cyclists just nervous to have any car behind them or are some cyclists just grumpy and want you out of their way quick-smart? As I said I'm often put under-pressure to just hurry up and overtake.

feck sake lads

lads have you ever cycled in france there the cars will not pass until they have a clear road no matter how long it takes.
here in ireland i can safely motorists would sooner drive across you than slow up .i can't for the life of me see why this is do they no realize they will kill or cripple us .hopefully the new government will pass a law that will jail these morons once and for all :mad:

tomasrojo

I've never been under the impression that anyone would drive through me rather than wait. They've sometimes passed uncomfortably close, but they weren't trying to drive through me.

The tricky bit I find with primary position is doing a right turn when traffic is moving just that bit faster than you can keep up with. When you take the right lane you can get some very erratic driving as the following car tries to overtake you. Slower moving traffic in the same situation is no problem.

07Lapierre

austinbyrne21 wrote: »

Just looking for some opinions...

I'm a motorist and (try to be) a cyclist. When driving behind a cyclist I wait for a safe place to pass but I sometimes get the impression that the cyclist in question just wants me to hurry up and pass them, putting me under pressure. Now, I don't drive right behind them revving like a tool (like I've witnessed while cycling myself) but give them the same space I would a slow car in front of me.

Anyway, the opinions I'm after - are some cyclists just nervous to have any car behind them or are some cyclists just grumpy and want you out of their way quick-smart? As I said I'm often put under-pressure to just hurry up and overtake.

How does a cyclist put you (the motorist) under pressure?

Gavin

austinbyrne21 wrote: »

Just looking for some opinions...

I'm a motorist and (try to be) a cyclist. When driving behind a cyclist I wait for a safe place to pass but I sometimes get the impression that the cyclist in question just wants me to hurry up and pass them, putting me under pressure. Now, I don't drive right behind them revving like a tool (like I've witnessed while cycling myself) but give them the same space I would a slow car in front of me.

Anyway, the opinions I'm after - are some cyclists just nervous to have any car behind them or are some cyclists just grumpy and want you out of their way quick-smart? As I said I'm often put under-pressure to just hurry up and overtake.

I know what you mean, but it's probably not worth thinking about really. There's only one choice and that's to wait until it's safe for you to overtake, doesn't really matter if the cyclist is uncomfortable or not.

austinbyrne21

austinbyrne21 wrote: »

Just looking for some opinions...

I'm a motorist and (try to be) a cyclist. When driving behind a cyclist I wait for a safe place to pass but I sometimes get the impression that the cyclist in question just wants me to hurry up and pass them, putting me under pressure. Now, I don't drive right behind them revving like a tool (like I've witnessed while cycling myself) but give them the same space I would a slow car in front of me.

Anyway, the opinions I'm after - are some cyclists just nervous to have any car behind them or are some cyclists just grumpy and want you out of their way quick-smart? As I said I'm often put under-pressure to just hurry up and overtake.

Overtake if there's space, don't if there's not. I don't know if your fears about cyclists being annoyed that you're not overtaking them are entirely justified, after all it's a bit difficult to guess what someone is thinking by looking at the back of their head!

However that said, if I'm out for a cycle I find it annoying if a motorist doesn't use a passing oppurtunity when it presents itself because:

A)They may be holding up a few cars behind them, whose drivers may not be as patient as they are, who, once the first car passes drive by in quick succession, each one passing closer than the last.

B)They suddenly decide they wan't to pass and do it in a silly place despite passing up a perfectly good opportunity to get by.

Note this refers to cycling on rural roads mostly. In urban areas it's not such an issue as you usually get to the next set of lights and traffic que pretty quick and leave them stuck in the traffic. I absolutley cannot understand people who pass in a furious manner when there's a red light with a que of traffic 50 metres up the road. The "hurry up and wait" mentality.

Cabaal

newmug wrote: »

Why weren't you in the process of braking the minute the car began to pass you out? This way the car would have gone past you quicker,

Do you do this when you drive because I know nobody that does and I'm bloody glad they don't.

If somebody is overtaking and they neither have the clearance or power to do so quickly or safely then they should wait, the motorist is 100% in the wrong here and your suggesting in some manner the cyclist is wrong in some manner.

The cyclist has as much right to the road as the motorist if the motorist wants to overtake they must obey the rules of the road as outlined above and in the rules of the road.

leeroybrown

Hermy wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous. How do you defend your road position against a tonne of automobile? The 'by the book' road position doesn't matter a damn if the driver of the car doesn't see you, doesn't care about you or doesn't have the common sense necessary to drive safely.

Have you read the thread? The OP clearly stated that they deliberately took up a road position about 2" from the kerb and later stated that in future they'd maintain a wider normal road position to avoid the problem in future. If they'd originally taken up a more defensive road position the driver behind would have unlikely have squeezed them onto the kerb like they did. Some drivers will go for that stupid gap if they think it's there.

austinbyrne21

07Lapierre wrote: »

How does a cyclist put you (the motorist) under pressure?

Sorry, my bad. I don't mean the look of the back of a cyclists head. I mean that sometimes a cyclist will either:

1. Wave me on when it's not save for me to pass or;
2. Slide over to the kerb giving the impression he wants me to pass

or both of these options.

Don't get me wrong, I never pass them out because they just want me to, I will do it safely when I get the chance. Just wanted to know what's the opinions out there. Whether some cyclists are just slightly nervous or slightly grumpy.;)

Thanks for answering guys. Now back to road positioning talk with you's...:D

Edit: Sorry 07 Lapierre, quoted the wrong person.

BostonB

I've never had a cyclist do that. Perhaps you're driving closer than you think you are. Stay further back see if happens again. Maybe they are just nervous cyclists.

paulieb2006

They must have been all out today as I too had a close one. Not as bad as the OP but it was witnessed by a Guard coming in the other direction.
Lady pulls up along side me in Abbeyknockmoy this evening and just turns left into a housing estate, she never got in front of me at all and just swung left. I had to swing left with her, gave her a good stiff arm. She eventually stopped and looked at me as if to say "What the F**k are you doing there". She just mouthed Sorry and drove off.
Thing is there was a Guard coming against us and saw what happened, dont know if he was going to stop, but he did when I flagged him down. He asked me if I wanted to make a complaint but I just asked him to have a word with her as this kind of thing is happening much too often.
Had a similar incident last saturday on a club run with a bunch of Yanks in a hire car. Feel now like I should have done more about it with the Guard.
Was the original incident in Galway too?

Hermy

leeroybrown wrote: »

Have you read the thread? The OP clearly stated that they deliberately took up a road position about 2" from the kerb and later stated that in future they'd maintain a wider normal road position to avoid the problem in future. If they'd originally taken up a more defensive road position the driver behind would have unlikely have squeezed them onto the kerb like they did. Some drivers will go for that stupid gap if they think it's there.

I've reread it several times and I'm still struggling to understand how a cyclist defends there lane position when a passing motorist who's sole concern is avoiding oncoming traffic veers into said cyclists path.
When I'm cycling I'm always extremely cautious of motorists overtaking me as many of them seem to view me as less important than vehicular traffic. If a passing motorist does suddenly veer left defending my road position goes out the window and my only concern is crash avoidance.

cdaly_

Hermy wrote: »

I've reread it several times and I'm still struggling to understand how a cyclist defends there lane position when a passing motorist who's sole concern is avoiding oncoming traffic veers into said cyclists path.
When I'm cycling I'm always extremely cautious of motorists overtaking me as many of them seem to view me as less important than vehicular traffic. If a passing motorist does suddenly veer left defending my road position goes out the window and my only concern is crash avoidance.

Oh agreed but defending your position is about being in the right place so that they won't attempt a dangerous overtaking manouvre in the first place.

In the OP's case, being out in the middle of the lane approaching the left turn would require the veering left motorist to veer right first. I regularly do this at certain left turns to prevent the pass and turn left problem

tomasrojo

Hermy wrote: »

I'm always extremely cautious of motorists overtaking me as many of them seem to view me as less important than vehicular traffic.

I'm being picky here, but I'd prefer the term "motorised traffic", since a bicycle is classified as a vehicle here, as it is in most countries.

VanhireBoys

paulieb2006 wrote: »

Was the original incident in Galway too?

Aye it was... At the top of the Cappagh Road just after I had turned left after the roundabout..! Going for a spin tommorow morning to see how long I can hang on for before I get dropped...