Increasing the legal muzzle energy limit from 1J to 7.5J

recipio

How about harmonising air gun ownership back to 1972 levels or at least in line with current UK law. I mean the Northern troubles for which my Crossman BB gun was seized have, kinda -- ended.
Seriously, it would promote a lot of commerce - there are an estimated 5 million air guns in circulation in the UK at We are Europeans, let us live like them.

Grizzly 45

WHAT??? Give the common people of Ireland...cough,splutter..choke!!...gasp...FREE access to firearms???[As thats what they still calssify air guns as here!Despite them having nothing to do with any sort of self contained cartridge,well maybe Brocock...But thats another story..]..Heavens sake Man ..where do you think you are???America??You will be wanting votes for women next,and proably children not down mines and cleaning our chimmeys for a penny a week!!!:pac::pac::D:D:D

recipio

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

WHAT??? Give the common people of Ireland...cough,splutter..choke!!...gasp...FREE access to firearms???[As thats what they still calssify air guns as here!Despite them having nothing to do with any sort of self contained cartridge,well maybe Brocock...But thats another story..]..Heavens sake Man ..where do you think you are???America??You will be wanting votes for women next,and proably children not down mines and cleaning our chimmeys for a penny a week!!!:pac::pac::D:D:D

Calm down man, remember we had "free access to firearms" ( airguns ) from 1922 to 1972 and what harm did it do us !
Now that the decendants of the founders of the State are coming to power and are desperate to get us spending again I think its an excellent idea.
I'll suggest it on the doorsteps if they ever come around.

Grizzly 45

recipio wrote: »

Calm down man, remember we had "free access to firearms" ( airguns ) from 1922 to 1972 and what harm did it do us !
Now that the decendants of the founders of the State are coming to power and are desperate to get us spending again I think its an excellent idea.
I'll suggest it on the doorsteps if they ever come around.

4 words on my previous post
TOUNGE IN CHEEK POST:)
Did we have freee access to air guns in that period??? Dont think so..Think you will find that they became liscensed around the 1950s/60s??
It is indeed an exellent idea,but trying to convince an Irish politican of its merits would be a fantastic achivement in its own right,especially on the doorstep when they are in election fever and will promise anything to you including their 1st born and virgin daughter for your vote.
But then you have to convince the REAL govt of this place .Namley the burrocratic mandarins and the Gardai who enforce our oppressive firearms laws as they see fit.The impossible can be done straight away,miracles can take abit longer in Ireland.:pac:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Did we have freee access to air guns in that period??? Dont think so..Think you will find that they became liscensed around the 1950s/60s??

1964.

It is indeed an exellent idea,but trying to convince an Irish politican of its merits would be a fantastic achivement in its own right,especially on the doorstep when they are in election fever and will promise anything to you including their 1st born and virgin daughter for your vote.
But then you have to convince the REAL govt of this place .Namley the burrocratic mandarins and the Gardai who enforce our oppressive firearms laws as they see fit.The impossible can be done straight away,miracles can take abit longer in Ireland.:pac:

Two-thirds of that is done already. There is a limit on muzzle energy for airguns to be recognised as firearms - 1J. There was no real opposition to raising that to 7.5J two years ago (had the NARGC not back-burnered the idea, the odds are about even that we'd have it by now). The thing is, paintball markers are 14-16J. And paintball's a harmless stag party game. So what's the big deal with 7.5J?

Grizzly 45

Mass of airgun lead pellet vs mass of gel paint ball,and pnetrative powers there of??

Here! if paintball guns are classified as "firearms" how come it is still legal here as it is a dynamic shooting sport involving liscenseable firearms,tactics etc,etc shooting at fellow humans??Somthing IPSC never permitted? The excuse of "Ah its only lads playing at cowboys and injuns "wont wash in this case! Understandable with airsoft,[but dubious reasoning at best].It fits the bill of combat training and shooting under the legislation.
But this does involve firearms which if the law is applied correctly makes paintball illegal here.Somthings rotten here again.:(

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Mass of airgun lead pellet vs mass of gel paint ball,and pnetrative powers there of??

Standard paintball = 3.5g. Standard match air rifle pellet = 0.45g.

Yes, an air pellet will penetrate more because of its density; but it won't penetrate bone and while it's possible to hit a major blood vessel with one and cause a serious injury:

1. It's highly unlikely - I don't think there's ever been a fatality caused by an airgun pellet under the 7.5J limit - I know people have actually tried to commit suicide with them and failed because of the low muzzle energy;
2. There are several sports out there that use equipment far more dangerous and capable of far more penetration without a licence - my recurve bow could put an arrow clean through a human torso without much difficulty, and that's twice the diameter of an airgun pellet; and compound bows are even more energetic than that; and no licence is required.

These are fairly well-known points.
They haven't much to do with the GE though, so I'll split out these to their own thread.

Here! if paintball guns are classified as "firearms" how come it is still legal here as it is a dynamic shooting sport involving liscenseable firearms,tactics etc,etc shooting at fellow humans??Somthing IPSC never permitted? The excuse of "Ah its only lads playing at cowboys and injuns "wont wash in this case! Understandable with airsoft,[but dubious reasoning at best].It fits the bill of combat training and shooting under the legislation.
But this does involve firearms which if the law is applied correctly makes paintball illegal here.Somthings rotten here again.:(

PR.
Paintball has a public image of a few lads having a laugh in a harmless sport on a stag party or whatever.
IPSC doesn't.
What paintball and IPSC actually are had nothing to do with it.

gofaster_s13

It would be better to sort out the amount of unlicensed airguns in the country first, a lot of them come over the border and accross on the boat that are never licensed, they even pop up on Donedeal every now and again.

Sparks

This would solve that problem in a single act though... since they'd no longer need licences

Vegeta

Personal opinion is that I think 7.5j isn't high enough, that's around 5.5 ft/lbs isn't it.

Should be over double it so that the (just under) 12 ft/lb air rifles could be sold here for hunting also.

Maybe only purchasable by over 18 years of age (juniors can have parents/guardians buy them)

Sparks

12 ft-lbs would be grand, paintball markers would come off-licence and they'd be happy at that; but I don't know if it'd be as easy as the german 7.5J standard to bring in.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote: »

12 ft-lbs would be grand, paintball markers would come off-licence and they'd be happy at that; but I don't know if it'd be as easy as the german 7.5J standard to bring in.

Yup maybe get the German 7.5J first and aim for 12 ft/lbs after a period when air operated firearms are seen in a better light.

Baby steps is the way to go. It's my own personal greed that would want the 12 ft/lb ones, I love PCP air rifles

4gun

Sparks wrote: »

There are several sports out there that use equipment far more dangerous and capable of far more penetration without a licence - my recurve bow could put an arrow clean through a human torso without much difficulty, and that's twice the diameter of an airgun pellet; and compound bows are even more energetic than that; and no licence is required.

.

give them ideas why don't ya :rolleyes: possibly because these sporting equipment are no longer seen as weapons and are generally obsolete as such

bunny shooter

recipio wrote: »

........Now that the decendants of the founders of the State..........

You're version of history is selective to say the least :rolleyes:

Fear of public firearms ownership here probably reverts back to the Civil War.

4gun

bunny shooter wrote: »

You're version of history is selective to say the least :rolleyes:

Fear of public firearms ownership here probably reverts back to the Civil War.

well one would think that the lack of any form of civil unrest here due to the events that unfolded in our economy would lead to the authorities in this country in to thinking that we are even more trustworhty with our firearms

bunny shooter

4gun wrote: »

well one would think that the lack of any form of civil unrest here due to the events that unfolded in our economy would lead to the authorities in this country in to thinking that we are even more trustworhty with our firearms

Mine is only a theory subservises & criminals willingness to use firearms is also part of it I suppose. Lad in limerick today got 6 years for posession of a pistol & ammo, 10 year mandatory in law, ffs :rolleyes: 20 years be more appropiate IMVHO !

4gun

I pretty sure the gun was not aquired through the proper channels,
these lads will get their hands on guns even in the event of a complete ban,

bunny shooter

4gun wrote: »

I pretty sure the gun was not aquired through the proper channels,
these lads will get their hands on guns even in the event of a complete ban,

I reckon you're right, especially as he was attached to the McCarthy-Dundon gang

Browning 9mm I think it said on the news but can't believe a thing they say :P

Grizzly 45

4gun wrote: »

well one would think that the lack of any form of civil unrest here due to the events that unfolded in our economy would lead to the authorities in this country in to thinking that we are even more trustworhty with our firearms

Thats why they proably think there hasnt been any major civil unrest...Yet!!!
Is the lack of "weaponary" in the Irish pouplation! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

possibly because these sporting equipment are no longer seen as weapons and are generally obsolete as such

Should include crossbows then as well as compressed air spearguns.
Crossbows were last used militarily in the 12 centuary.Apart from a James Bond film,I dont think there have been many massacres with spearguns either in recent time.:D



It would be great if people could get under the 12ft lb limit over the counter,especially under 18 with "parental supervision".However how much of that does really go on here??
Germany,your kid mucks up with an air rifle,out in public or puts in the neighbours window even,if he is underage you the parent is in front of the local beak,no second thoughts about it.

Check out what happened to the dad of the last teen nutjob[literally was attested as a semi nutter] who shot up Winniden.
HE is being charged with reckless endangerment of life and firearms and ammo storage violations.[Looking at a 12 year stretch]
They came down on him heavily as he knew his son was abit wobbly,and should have taken extra precautions to secure the gun and ammo.[Like in a safe,and not told the son where the keys were!]

Could you imagine what it would be like here,if somones little Johnny went out and decided the cars on the M50 would be good target practise??

Who would be blamed,all us gun owners and our "deadly sniper air rifles":(
Not Mr and Mrs Waster who let their "lovely boy who was never in trouble before" out to play with a gun that in the wrong circumstances can cause trouble enough,as they thought it was just a bit of craic".

Be great ,but there would have to be some fierce deterrent laws to prevent misuse.

4gun

what your saying grizz is good but shoud be for any event of criminality by an underage person parents should be 100% responcible in all cases for their children

on the other note I personally believe that it was the maturity and common sense of the generall Irish population that we did not have any disturbances
revenge will be got by the ballot box which should send a very powerful message to our politicians
firearms in the minds of all Irish gun owners are seen a sporting equipment pure and simple

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=4gun;70855682]what your saying grizz is good but shoud be for any event of criminality by an underage person parents should be 100% responcible in all cases for their children

In an ideal world certainly,in Ireland doubtful at best.Even then if they were brought to book,a no doubt ludicrious fine or other slap on the wrist is all they will get.:(

on the other note I personally believe that it was the maturity and common sense of the generall Irish population that we did not have any disturbances

If we had that sort of "maturity and common sense" we wouldnt be in this Godawful mess we are in now,and would have chucked Aherne,Cowen and the rest of those bilthering incompetants out on their asses three years ago!! :mad:
We'll soon see if" maturity and common sense" is still around when the balifs will be standing at peoples doors with eviction orders in their plenty in the next three years.The banks are only dealing about now with the backlogs of defaults of the year 2006!!Thats just busisness ,not mortage defaults on private dwellings ...

Not to mind when it is the family farms that have taken generations to build up are under the sheriffs writ!!!You can take anything off us ,but not THE LAND!!! That is a different story.[John B Keane made quite a few quid on a play called The Field just about that issue and cut right to the heart of the Irish psyche on that subject.]

But you are proably right..We no doubt showed "maturity and common sense"going by the two major oppressors of the Irish people the church and the Irish ascendency when we obligingly died on the side of our roads,after bein evicted and had nothing more to lose than our starving short miserable lives when we could have risen in Black 47 and maybe then changed this nations history. We are great ones for maturity and common sense!!

revenge will be got by the ballot box which should send a very powerful message to our politicians

Yeah,the mugs voted us in for a five year term of mercs and perks,the election manifestoes wont be worth toilet paper this time tomrrow. I think we are going to find we are in for an awful lot of dissapointment,no matter who we vote in.The fight isnt here,the fight is in Europe,and we are serious lightweights in the EU parliment,contary to the 100% BS we have been fed here that Ireland is somhow important in EU and world affairs.

All theEU is intrested in here is [a] We owe them a heap of cash and when are going to pony up the dough so [c]Merkel can tell her voters she is getting their money back and her ratings go up and the average German quits grumbling about this Euro currency idea as a good idea [d] the huge debtors like Italy and Spain dont sink and tear the EU reich apart
and Berlusconi can go back to chasing under age crumpets:p Not to mind that little jumped up Frenchman, Sarkozy can pretend to play at being Napoleon again lording it over ze Irlandis peasents:rolleyes:

Sorry,I dont think Enda,Micheal,orwhatshis name of Labour who has a funny idea that the president of the central bank of Europe is a civil servant are the men for the job either.:(

firearms in the minds of all Irish gun owners are seen a sporting equipment pure and simple

Sure...Ok...whatever..:)Nudge is as good as a wink to a blind man..Say no more,say no more Guv!Pythonesque times indeed!

Sorry for going OT and ranting political,but I think collectively in Ireland we avoidmentioning the herd of elephants in the living room betimes.

Bananaman

I dunno about the rest of ye but that has me convinced ........... That the muzzle energy of 'non-firearms' should be raised.


B'Man

Bananaman

Question for the mods .....

As there has been much mention of 'Paintball Markers' and their requirement for authorisation....

Do they come under the term 'shooting' in terms of subject matter relevant to this forum?

B'Man

Vegeta

Bananaman wrote: »

I dunno about the rest of ye but that has me convinced ........... That the muzzle energy of 'non-firearms' should be raised.


B'Man

Bananaman wrote: »

Question for the mods .....

As there has been much mention of 'Paintball Markers' and their requirement for authorisation....

Do they come under the term 'shooting' in terms of subject matter relevant to this forum?

B'Man

B'man, the first post quoted is a clear dig and if you have a problem with a post use the report post function or PM us.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Do they come under the term 'shooting' in terms of subject matter relevant to this forum?

Re-read the forum charter please B'man:

The forum you are in right now is the general Shooting forum and it is for the discussion of shooting related subjects, including techniques and equipment; as well as for discussion of directly related topics, such as how we run our clubs and our sport and how changes in firearms legislation affects us.