MT4002 a farse?

RHunce

1st Yr Wood Teacher here also. Having been to a minimum of lectures, to be quite honest, I found the content as I sat there to be far above what I could comprehend having only had a junior cert science background. Now while my understanding of this module is that it is quite easy for those from engineering disciplines, it is not the case for us teachers. It is a poorly delivered module, our TA's even agree so having done this module a number of years ago. They describe it as something you've "just got to put up with". Now when that is said about a module that we have to take as part of our studies building up to a second year teaching practice I feel that it is a disgrace and obviously needs to be reviewed. The fact that you have to defend your module like an actual child on an internet forum says a lot about MT4002. We would surely benefit from a more relevant module to us instead of having this poorly run, poorly delivered, BS of a module.

/rant.

daniels.ducks

Kev Cah

Ok firstly i don’t mean to insult anyone with what I have to say. I’m only here to give my point of view after spending the last semester doing this module.

I don’t accept the point that because you’re doing Woodwork or metalwork teaching, you’re immediately at a disadvantage to an engineering student. I had Physics, Applied Maths and Honours Maths under my belt but to be honest none of that helped me in anyway. I went to the lectures for the first few weeks and then gave up as i felt i would learn more at home, as did many other students in all different types of courses who are studying this module. The only thing I will carry forward from this module is Young’s Modulus purely because it has crossed over with other modules in my course which cover it so much better then MT4002.

Secondly, I don’t mean to insult you in anyway Jeremy, but your attitude on this forum is shocking to say the least. It may not be the most appropriate method of communication but seems to be the most effective. You’re getting much more valuable feedback from past and present students compared to that of your mandatory feedback. You seem to be ignorant to that fact and so be it. Don’t ask us for feedback again anytime soon.

Sulis is much better organised compared to a lot of my other modules. I’m in 1st Yr. Civil and we had some architecture modules which had no online resources at all. Similarly to the Maths module with Natalia, all we were given is a half filled out set of notes and some past papers. In this module we are given substantial amounts of information but the majority of it is useless or impossible to find an answer in. And the one thing we would find most valuable, past papers, are left out completely!

Ok now on to ways to actually improve the module as a whole.
TEACH THE MODULE
Maybe it’s because I have just walked out of the leaving cert but I find the majority of lecturers don’t bother with teaching and are only concerned with telling. It would be much more valuable to a student if they actually understood 1 topic rather than being bombarded with 10 different topics. The lecturers don’t try and make the module accessible to the ordinary student. I could have my degree and still wouldn’t understand some of the stuff you are on about. You could change this by clearly explaining what every letter in equations mean and having a few pages of definitions explaining what every term is.

CHANGE SULIS
As someone pointed out, Sulis should be multiple choices and not entering a figure into a box. The bands are not that generous. I worked hard in the first few weeks and got terrible results even though I had the right method but pressed the wrong button on Excel. The whole point is having the right method and not necessarily the right answer. Sulis doesn’t care about your method at all and students are using this to their advantage. Instead I, like many other students go for the easier option of getting cheat sheets from previous years. Much less work and much more marks. Happy out!

HAVE PAST PAPERS
Students need to be able to gauge what the paper will be like. Make past papers available instead of recycling the same one every year. The 50 sample questions were nothing like the questions on the day. The exam was much tougher.

As for attendance, you can’t force students to go; a sign of a good lecturer is a full class.


EDIT:Just to clear up something, there are no architects in the module.

garv123

Kev Cah wrote: »

CHANGE SULIS
Instead I, like many other students go for the easier option of getting cheat sheets from previous years. Much less work and much more marks. Happy out!

.

When I done this module and we dont the test which involved breaking the chalk we got an email of Jeremy or whoever was in charge, saying if we used last years answers on this one we would score low.
So basically they told everyone who was cheating not to use the cheat notes for just this experiment because they are wrong.

Still cant understand that.

jeremyr62

That was because we changed the brand of chalk and the Weibull Modulus came out differently.

crazyred

We are up to 97 posts now Jeremy, do you still think there is not a problem with the way the course is run?

Thanks to Kev Cah for his very good suggestions. The only thing I will say with all due respect is that with even though your Engineering Maths,
Physics for Engineers 1 and 2 and Chemistry modules may seem like they have not helped you at least you are getting used to scientific language. We are dropped in at the deep end and cant make head nor tail of what is being explained. It is not being thought as an introductory course, it would be very easy to explain the same course content in a practical sense using common English and real life examples or analogies. We are studying concepts like this in our education modules, how can people learn if that cant understand what you are saying. The points for woodwork and metalwork are 460 in the cao. These are bright people doing this course. It is not hard for us to understand complex procedures just the module is being explained properly in my opinion.

I have a direct question for Jeremy. Have you ever compared results of your exam according to the classes? Do you think that might give an indication of how much people might be understanding of his module. Take into account 25% probability from just guessing of course.

jeremyr62

It's the internet. Forums like this tend to attract the disgruntled punter by definition. A lot of of the comments are probably my responses too..
If you read my previous responses I do not claim MT4002 is perfect. There are issues with SULIS, copying of labs and student attendance, but plenty of students do OK in the final exam.

I stress again if you have issues with the content. Approach your course directors. I am not trying to sabotage your education. If the content is way beyond your abilities then that is something the course directors should address. However, 2140 students have been through MT4002 since its inception. If it was fundamentally broken then I would expect to see course directors beating a path to my door, and I don't.

Yes, we have QPV versus enrolled course, and leaving cert point data.

daniels.ducks

jeremyr62 wrote: »

It's the internet. Forums like this tend to attract the disgruntled punter by definition. A lot of of the comments are probably my responses too..
If you read my previous responses I do not claim MT4002 is perfect. There are issues with SULIS, copying of labs and student attendance, but plenty of students do OK in the final exam.

I stress again if you have issues with the content. Approach your course directors. I am not trying to sabotage your education. If the content is way beyond your abilities then that is something the course directors should address. However, 2140 students have been through MT4002 since its inception. If it was fundamentally broken then I would expect to see course directors beating a path to my door, and I don't.

Yes, we have QPV versus enrolled course, and leaving cert point data.

Sorry Jeremy, do you think this is good enough? As students that have worked and pay we deserve a perfect education, not one with known flaws. I recommend that you bite the bullet and solve the problems. The fact of the matter is that students are having serious problems understanding content and that's not down to SULIS, themselves or the course directors.

Kev Cah

jeremyr62 wrote: »

It's the internet. Forums like this tend to attract the disgruntled punter by definition.

I agree with you there Jeremy but you must realise that the man who has bothered finding this thread, reading through all the comments and then given his feedback genuinely cares about his education and wants to improve the module. There are so many people commenting, which proves my point. We might be disgruntled but that’s because we are not satisfied with the module. There is no point going in to a lecture and not knowing what’s going on.

And I find it almost insulting that you keep pushing us on to our course directors. We know there needs to be improvements in the module. You know there needs to be improvements. Why get a middle man involved for no reason? At the end of the day the course directors don’t go to the labs or lectures, the student does. And our feedback is so valuable. You don’t seem to appreciate it here on this forum. Maybe it would be more effective if the students got together and organised a letter of complaint instead. Maybe then our opinions might be appreciated a little bit more.

jeremyr62

The University has formal procedures and mechanisms by which modules can be changed. I am hardly going make major changes to a module on the back of a small number of vocal anonymous boardsies now am I?

daniels.ducks

Do you think changes are needed Jeremy? How about the simple things like supplying a module outline that people can clearly find. You can hardly blame SULIS for not putting up the outline?

Kev Cah

Why not? We're only here because we want to make improvements in the module. We're not here to put you down or make the module worse. I don’t see why you can’t take our suggestions on board and make changes for next semester.

jeremyr62

This is on SULIS

MT4002 Syllabus
Aims & Objectives:
This is a course in Engineering Materials for students with no previous back-ground in the subject. It is designed to meet the needs of engineering, science and design students for a first materials course, emphasizing design applications.
The mathematical analysis is kept as simple as possible while still retaining the essential physical understanding, and still arriving at results, which although approximate, are useful. Case Studies and laboratory experiments are widely used to demonstrate analysis and the use of data, to arrive at numerical solutions to real or postulated problems. This level of analysis, and these data, are of the type that would be used in a preliminary study for the selection of a material or the analysis of a design (or design-failure).

On successful completion of this module students will (will be able to):
Define the properties of materials like strength, stiffness, toughness etc.
Explain how these properties can be measured.
Describe the basic science that underlies each property.
Conduct basic materials selection for design applications.


Syllabus

Introduction to engineering materials and their properties.
Price and availability of materials
The Elastic moduli (bonding between atoms, packing of atoms in solids, physical basis of Young’s modulus
Yield strength, tensile strength and ductility (dislocations and yielding in crystals, strengthening methods and plasticity of polycrystals)
Fast fracture and toughness (micromechanisms of fast fracture)
Fatigue failure (fatigue of cracked and uncracked components, mechanisms, design against fatigue)
Creep and creep fracture (kinetic theory of diffusion, mechanisms of creep and creep-resistant materials)
Design with materials
Case Studies and laboratory experiments incorporating examples of mechanical testing, failure analysis, design and materials selection.

Kev Cah

From Book of Modules

U n i v e r s i t y of L i m e r i c k
Module Description

1. Module Code - Title: MT4002 - MATERIALS 1
2. Hours Per Week: Lecture Lab Tutorial Other Private ECTS Credits
3 2 0 0 5 6
3. Grading Type: N
4. Prerequisite Modules:

5. Rationale and Purpose of the Module
This is a course in Engineering Materials for students with no previous back-ground in the subject. It is designed to meet the needs of engineering, science and design students for a first materials course, emphasizing design applications.

6. Syllabus
Introduction to engineering materials and their properties. Price and availability of materials The Elastic moduli (bonding between atoms, packing of atoms in solids, physical basis of YoungÆs modulus Yield strength, tensile strength and ductility (dislocations and yielding in crystals, strengthening methods and plasticity of polycrystals) Fast fracture and toughness (micromechanisms of fast fracture) Fatigue failure (fatigue of cracked and uncracked components, mechanisms, design against fatigue) Creep and creep fracture (kinetic theory of diffusion, mechanisms of creep and creep-resistant materials) Design with materials Case Studies and laboratory experiments incorporating examples of mechanical testing, failure analysis, design and materials selection.

7. Learning Outcomes

Cognitive (Knowledge, Understanding, Application, Analysis, Evaluation, Synthesis)
Define the properties of materials like strength, stiffness, toughness etc. Explain how these properties can be measured. Describe the basic science that underlies each property. Conduct basic materials selection for design applications.

Affective (Attitudes and Values)
The mathematical analysis is kept as simple as possible while still retaining the essential physical understanding, and still arriving at results, which although approximate, are useful. Case Studies and laboratory experiments are widely used to demonstr

Psychomotor (Physical Skills)
8-10 pratical laboratory experiments form the backbone of the module. These all require students to apply the scientific method.

8. How the module will be taught and what will be the learning experiences of the students
8-10 laboratory experiments, lectures, all assessed through online systems (SULIS)

9. Research Findings incorporated into the syllabus (If relevant)
Not relevant

10. Prime Texts
M.Ashby (2005) Engineering Materials 1 , Butterworth Heinmann

11. Other Relevant Texts

12. Programme(s) in which this Module is offered
LM062
LM071
LM076
LM073
LM074
LM077
LM079
LM063
LM067
LM075
LM081
LM082
LM094
LM095
LM087 BSc in Energy
LM115 BEng in Chemical and Biochemical Engineering
BEng in Design and Manufacture

13. Semester-Year to be first offered
Spring-08/09

14. Module Leader
Jeremy.Robinson@staffmail.ul.ie

daniels.ducks

Right, and what about the assessment criteria? Does the end of semester exam have to be passed to pass the module?

jeremyr62

daniels.ducks wrote: »

Right, and what about the assessment criteria? Does the end of semester exam have to be passed to pass the module?

The final grade is calculated from the combined coursework and exam mark.

jeremyr62

Kev Cah wrote: »

Why not? We're only here because we want to make improvements in the module. We're not here to put you down or make the module worse. I don’t see why you can’t take our suggestions on board and make changes for next semester.

Because most of the comments here are from first year students. First year students are not academic professionals like the course directors. If you have a grievance the procedure is to take it to your course director. They decide whether to act or not.

Remember the vast majority of students do OK in MT4002. Not as well as I'd like, but OK. We do change things too. The weekly tutorials and quizzes were new this year.

The students that do OK in the final exam are those that attend lectures, labs and tutorials, They don't give up and exclude themselves when they are confronted with something they don't understand. They go away and try to figure it out for themselves. That is what being a good student it all about. Being challenged with new stuff and concepts that appear difficult but with a bit of effort become less daunting.

"We can explain stuff to you but we can't understand it for you." A fridge magnet.

crazyred

Frankly Jeremy you are just being petty and childish at this stage. I thought for an "Academic Professional" as you refer to yourself, your responses would be more professional. From what I see people do well in your module in two instances.
1) People who understand the basis of the module
2)the people who are lost are forced to accumulate answers from previous years to sulis and make educated guesses on and educated guess your multiply choice questions exam in which probability will take effect.

I think you are unable to differentiate these groups, just because your class dont fail doesn't mean the majority understand. It just seems your out of touch and ignorant to that fact that most of your class are lost.

There may be a childish fridge magnet that you mentioned "We can explain stuff to you but we can't understand it for you.".
Well maybe it is a possibility that the educators may think they are explaining adequately when in reality they are giving there students the impossible task of constructing meaning from their words. Maybe that might also account for your lack of attendance.

garv123

jeremyr62 wrote: »

That was because we changed the brand of chalk and the Weibull Modulus came out differently.

Thats not the point, you still emailed students and told them no to use last years answers which is cheating and warned them about it.

Why would you warn people who are cheating that the cheat notes are wrong?

Makes no sense at all.

jeremyr62

I pointed out the DATA from the previous year(s) was no longer applicable.

Kev Cah

I fully agree with your point that 1st yr. students are not academic professionals. But you must realise that the academic professionals are the ones who have a degree or PhD in their back pocket. They can go into your lecture and understand it no bother. The people who need to understand it are the 1st years. The way you’re coming across makes it seem to be the students fault for not comprehending the material, when really the vast majority of students do try but just give up because the subject is put into such technical jargon.

I can guarantee you that the students who do OK will not just be the ones who attended all the lectures and labs. When i came out of the exam I thought it was tough but I still felt i knew the majority of the material. I have barely been to 10 lectures/tutorials this semester. Is it fair that I should do better than someone who has been to everything like Crazyred?
As he points out there is a big difference between not failing and understanding, and the majority of your students don’t understand MT4002 no matter what you say.

As a test in the next lecture we have, ask people at random a basic question and see if they know the answer. Then you’ll see how much they know.

jeremyr62

As I keep pointing out, if students feel the module content is inappropriate then their only course of action is to contact their course director giving their reasons. There may well be grounds to split the module but this isn't going to happen because of what gets posted on boards, that I can guarantee.

SarahBeep!

jeremyr62 wrote: »

As I keep pointing out, if students feel the module content is inappropriate then their only course of action is to contact their course director giving their reasons. There may well be grounds to split the module but this isn't going to happen because of what gets posted on boards, that I can guarantee.

So stop replying then. All you're doing is goading students.

How about you show some initiative and go to course directors and ask them to speak to their classes. If this is something you're willing to do then maybe students wouldn't see you as an enemy, you would at least appear to have their best interests at heart.
If this is something you're not willing to do then you're just another overpaid academic behind a desk who doesnt care about students.

daniels.ducks

jeremyr62 wrote: »

The final grade is calculated from the combined coursework and exam mark.

Right so, this means that with my 21% from the SULIS quizzes every week all I only needed to get around 23 questions correct out of the hundred to allow me to get a compensating fail and move on into next year. Even if i guessed 80% of the answers there is a sum -

m/v^-10=somerandomletter=pi/someotherrandomletter/2.362563265a

which will tell me that i will pass even by guessing, knowing minimal content.

jeremyr62

SarahBeep! wrote: »

So stop replying then. All you're doing is goading students.

How about you show some initiative and go to course directors and ask them to speak to their classes. If this is something you're willing to do then maybe students wouldn't see you as an enemy, you would at least appear to have their best interests at heart.
If this is something you're not willing to do then you're just another overpaid academic behind a desk who doesnt care about students.

Spare me the insults. I answer the questions asked. We have contacted course leaders in the past about the course and asked for feedback. The course gets reviewed by the Dept at the end of every semester. This is why we introduce additional resources every year. The module is set at an introductory level. It's been benchmarked against other institutions. I don't believe UL students are any less able than the students at the places we compared the module too.

thats not gone well

As I keep pointing out, if students feel the module content is inappropriate then their only course of action is to contact their course director giving their reasons. There may well be grounds to split the module but this isn't going to happen because of what gets posted on boards, that I can guarantee.

Jeremy, as a matter of interest, what does Con Hussey think of the module?

As the department head overseeing the module surely he has an opinion on the material covered.
He should be familiar with the performance of the students and lecturers in a module in his department.

If you don't think posts on an internet forum are appropriate for feed back, then why not ask him?
it is his job to know what's going on in his department after all.

The Head of Department is accountable, through the relevant Executive Dean, for matters relating to the management of departmental staff, the organisation of teaching, research and associated activities and the effective performance of staff duties. The Head of Department is required to be in regular communication with departmental staff and to be responsive to staff and to the interests of the wider university.

Delta Kilo

Ive been following this thread and I can empathise with the students who feel agrieved by the module.

However, if college teaches you anything its that you are no longer in the sheltered world that your teachers had you wrapped up in for your 6 years of secondary school. Its real life everyone and instead of whinging and complaining about it just go and do it. Its an easy module, I didnt go to the lectures either after week 1, but I went to the labs and did what it took to get through the module.

You will have modules down the line in 3rd year and 4th year that you are going to have to go to the library and take out the books and learn it yourself, not because your lecturer is rubbish, but because its necessary to pass the module. You are not being taught, you are being lectured, there is a difference and it does take time to adjust.

Its just an introductory module that you may never use, thats why it is mainly for first years and some second years. You will build on it in future when you study the core, difficult modules of the course you are studying.

daniels.ducks

Delta Kilo wrote: »

Ive been following this thread and I can empathise with the students who feel agrieved by the module.

However, if college teaches you anything its that you are no longer in the sheltered world that your teachers had you wrapped up in for your 6 years of secondary school. Its real life everyone and instead of whinging and complaining about it just go and do it. Its an easy module, I didnt go to the lectures either after week 1, but I went to the labs and did what it took to get through the module.

You will have modules down the line in 3rd year and 4th year that you are going to have to go to the library and take out the books and learn it yourself, not because your lecturer is rubbish, but because its necessary to pass the module. You are not being taught, you are being lectured, there is a difference and it does take time to adjust.

Its just an introductory module that you may never use, thats why it is mainly for first years and some second years. You will build on it in future when you study the core, difficult modules of the course you are studying.

So is woodwork.... but would you find it easy. Things are only easy if you know how to do them.

canned_ulkc

Daniel, I'm not quite sure what you're saying about what you refer to as woodwork, but be carefull, I know where you live (imagine this in my northern accent - add a lisp if you feel it's more affective)

oisin_t

On many of the previous posts it seems like a large problem is that this module is offered in first year for teachers and thus they struggle with terminology and such.

As an engineer who took this in its first year of being offered, I had issues with the course (mostly with the SULIS part), but overall I found this module no harder than any other I encountered in my second year. It is by no means a perfect a module and I did post earlier when Jeremy asked for a response from graduated students.

It seems then that the issue (bar the obvious issues with SULIS etc.) is that it is being offered too early in teaching courses. Perhaps this is an issue with course scheduling for these particular students, and if that is the case, then you need to let your course directors know.

Giving out to Jeremy regardless of how you feel about the subject isn't going to fix that sort of problem, but getting together and letting your course directors know how you feel will. By not talking to your directors, they are assuming everything is fine.