Ireland vs england

imported_guy

d'Oracle wrote: »

It takes 4 years of residence in England playing county cricket to qualify for the English cricket team.

This is what Morgan did and Joyce before him.
The 3 1/2 is to account for the few months he has already been over there if that counts.
Why would I make this up?

actually thats not what i meant, you're assuming hes going to jump ship as soon as the world cup is over, thats not gonna happen, and im pretty sure to qualify you have to reside there without a long gap inbetween your residency, so no it'll be 4 yrs from when he QUITS ireland not starting tomorrow

and no playing county cricket doesnt have anything to do with it, there are plenty of players who play county cricket in england, and cant play for their national team, even though they have been playing for way longer than 4 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azhar_Mahmood azhar is only recently become eligable because he became an english citizen, but hes played county cricket since before some people in this thread were even born , but obviously no one is going to select him for an english team anytime soon hes 36 and a pretty shiet player

celtictiger32

No

oh right i didnt realise that, i also didnt realise either joyce or morgan had done this.. what about the return i.e joyce coming back, is there a similar rule for that??

and if that is the rule why would you 'imported guy' not be able to play for ireland

g5fd6ow0hseima

celtictiger32 wrote: »

oh right i didnt realise that, i also didnt realise either joyce or morgan had done this.. what about the return i.e joyce coming back, is there a similar rule for that??

and if that is the rule why would you 'imported guy' not be able to play for ireland

They made a special consideration for Joyce, given that he is Irish and had played for us prior to jumping ship.

d'Oracle

imported_guy wrote: »

actually thats not what i meant, you're assuming hes going to jump ship as soon as the world cup is over, thats not gonna happen, and im pretty sure to qualify you have to reside there without a long gap inbetween your residency, so no it'll be 4 yrs from when he QUITS ireland not starting tomorrow

This is not the case.
Ed Joyce played for Ireland in the 2007 WC qualifiers before playing for England in the 2007 WC. Morgan played for us in that tournament and came and played in the world T20 for England in 2009.

This is allowed to give the opportunity to play Test cricket to the top Associate players.

imported_guy

celtictiger32 wrote: »

oh right i didnt realise that, i also didnt realise either joyce or morgan had done this.. what about the return i.e joyce coming back, is there a similar rule for that??

and if that is the rule why would you 'imported guy' not be able to play for ireland

im not a perm resident, and not an EU citizen either, so im probably an exception, i cant play until i become a citizen or a perm resident (cant become a perm resident since im over 18 and on a student visa, but im eligable for citizenship and have applied :P, but im shiet at playing so you wont be seeing me play anyway though :P)

celtictiger32

No

Victoria Prickly Barmaid wrote: »

They made a special consideration for Joyce, given that he is Irish and had played for us prior to jumping ship.

i see so we have our current crop for 3-4 years at least anyway ye?

celtictiger32

No

imported_guy wrote: »

im not a perm resident, and not an EU citizen either, so im probably an exception, i cant play until i become a citizen or a perm resident (cant become a perm resident since im over 18 and on a student visa, but im eligable for citizenship and have applied :P, but im shiet at playing so you wont be seeing me play anyway though :P)

ah ffs you were building my hopes up there;)

imported_guy

d'Oracle wrote: »

This is not the case.
Ed Joyce played for Ireland in the 2007 WC qualifiers before playing for England in the 2007 WC. Morgan played for us in that tournament and came and played in the world T20 for England in 2009.

This is allowed to give the opportunity to play Test cricket to the top Associate players.

he probably got around the rule some how, because im pretty sure you have to be a perm resident of a country to play for them, i'll try to find a crediable source for this.

d'Oracle

imported_guy wrote: »

he probably got around the rule some how, because im pretty sure you have to be a perm resident of a country to play for them, i'll try to find a crediable source for this.

4 year residency is the rule.

We have been through this in the thread which is about this exact subject.
The county cricket thing may be wrong, but I suppose it should be said that WTF would a professional player who wants to play cricket for England be doing in England if he wasn't playing county cricket?

d'Oracle

http://static.icc-cricket.yahoo.net/ugc/documents/DOC_37CE1CD9A2F8BC0C0053716144283ACA_1257677746881_78.pdf

imported_guy

imported_guy wrote: »

he probably got around the rule some how, because im pretty sure you have to be a perm resident of a country to play for them, i'll try to find a crediable source for this.

here are my sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residency


http://static.icc-cricket.yahoo.net/ugc/documents/DOC_5F00BDA78B77363CAE461644EC9C1688_1281866239978_416.pdf

A. CORE QUALIFICATION CRITERIA:
A Player shall be qualified to play for a National Cricket Federation where he/she satisfies at least one of the following requirements:
1. the Player was born in the relevant country;
2. the Player is able to demonstrate (by his/her possession of a valid passport issued by the relevant country) that he/she is a national of the relevant country; or
3. the Player is a Resident of the relevant country, in other words:
3.1 the Player has resided in the relevant country for a minimum of 183 days in each of the immediately preceding two years (female Players only);
3.2 the Player has resided in the relevant country for a minimum of 183 days in each of the immediately preceding four years (male Players only); or
3.3 the Player has resided in the relevant country for a minimum of 183 days in each of the immediately preceding seven years (male Players only).

hope that clears it up, ed probably got around that rule some how

darjeeling

imported_guy wrote: »

actually thats not what i meant, you're assuming hes going to jump ship as soon as the world cup is over, thats not gonna happen, and im pretty sure to qualify you have to reside there without a long gap inbetween your residency, so no it'll be 4 yrs from when he QUITS ireland not starting tomorrow

and no playing county cricket doesnt have anything to do with it, there are plenty of players who play county cricket in england, and cant play for their national team, even though they have been playing for way longer than 4 years.

Rules are different when going from an associate team to a full ICC member team. You can still play for an associate team whilst serving the period of residency qualification for a full member team. Two recent examples are Ed Joyce (mentioned above), who helped Ireland qualify for the 2007 World Cup and then played for England during the tournament itself, and Dirk Nannes, who went from playing for the Netherlands to playing for Australia very shortly after.

Coming back from playing for a full member team to playng for an associate team, however, normally takes four years (discretionarily reduced to allow Joyce to return for Ireland at this WC). The difference in rules was actually established to ensure that associate member teams wouldn't lose their star players for the whole time they were waiting to qualify for full member teams.

Rules can be read here.

imported_guy

d'Oracle wrote: »

4 year residency is the rule.

We have been through this in the thread which is about this exact subject.
The county cricket thing may be wrong, but I suppose it should be said that WTF would a professional player who wants to play cricket for England be doing in England if he wasn't playing county cricket?

there are plenty of people who dont want to play for england but still play english county cricket and are english perm residents/nationals I.E azhar mahmood, hes been playing for pakistan until the last world cup, hes been an english perm resident for quite some time and is an english national too, but he was born in pakistan so he is automatically eligable to play for pakistan. pretty sure this is how ed got around playing for ireland again.

Mongarra

As far as I know Ed Joyce played for Middlesex from 1999 to 2009 and then moved to Sussex, where he is still contracted.

He had therefore, fulfilled the residence requirement to qualify for England.

He should have had to wait 4 years after his last international game for England before he re-qualified for Ireland but the ICC (Clive Lloyd, I think, actually had the final decision) allowed a shorter time because Ireland claimed the World Cup was earlier in the year than previous tournaments and in the normal run of events the 4 years would have elapsed by the time the World Cup came around.

Glad to have him back but I think we will be waiting for a while for Eoin Morgan to re-qualify.

d'Oracle

I have no idea what you are arguing.

He lived and played cricket in England for 6 years before he was selected by England.

d'Oracle

imported_guy wrote: »

there are plenty of people who dont want to play for england but still play english county cricket and are english perm residents/nationals I.E azhar mahmood, hes been playing for pakistan until the last world cup, hes been an english perm resident for quite some time and is an english national too, but he was born in pakistan so he is automatically eligable to play for pakistan. pretty sure this is how ed got around playing for ireland again.

Again, I have no clue what you are arguing?
How bout you tell me what it is you think I am saying that is wrong.

imported_guy

darjeeling wrote: »

Rules are different when going from an associate team to a full ICC member team.

no one is arguing that since you are eligable to play for one team since you're born there, since you can be eligable for residency even if you stay in another country/play outside the 183 day limit

imported_guy

d'Oracle wrote: »

Again, I have no clue what you are arguing?
How bout you tell me what it is you think I am saying that is wrong.

here it is

d'Oracle wrote: »

4 year residency is the rule.

We have been through this in the thread which is about this exact subject.
The county cricket thing may be wrong, but I suppose it should be said that WTF would a professional player who wants to play cricket for England be doing in England if he wasn't playing county cricket?

pretty sure you asked why would someone want to live in england and play county cricket if they didnt want to play for the national team... otherwise your question made no sense (maybe you tried to ask what was ED doing in england if he wasnt playing county cricket?, maybe he was just trying to get the 183 days requirement?)

and i replied

imported_guy wrote: »

there are plenty of people who dont want to play for england but still play english county cricket and are english perm residents/nationals I.E azhar mahmood, hes been playing for pakistan until the last world cup, hes been an english perm resident for quite some time and is an english national too, but he was born in pakistan so he is automatically eligable to play for pakistan. pretty sure this is how ed got around playing for ireland again.

darjeeling

imported_guy wrote: »

no one is arguing that since you are eligable to play for one team since you're born there, since you can be eligable for residency even if you stay in another country/play outside the 183 day limit

Well, given that many in the Irish team are playing county cricket in England and building towards residency, the relevant ICC rules are the ones relating to switching between international teams, as I was pointing out. And these are:

ICC wrote:

To be eligible to represent an ICC Member at Under 19 level or above, a player must be [national / born there or...]

A4. Resident in the country for at least 183 days in each of the immediately
preceding four years (some restrictions for Associates and Affiliates detailed
below).

[with restrictions...]

B1. The player must not have represented another ICC Member at Under 19 level
or above - in an ICC sanctioned match (e.g. in a Test match, ODI, ICC Global
or Regional event) - in the immediately preceding four years (at under 19 level
or above).

C1. The restriction at B1 does not apply for a player progressing from representing
an Associate or Affiliate Member to representing a Full Member

imported_guy

Mongarra wrote: »

As far as I know Ed Joyce played for Middlesex from 1999 to 2009 and then moved to Sussex, where he is still contracted.

He had therefore, fulfilled the residence requirement to qualify for England.

He should have had to wait 4 years after his last international game for England before he re-qualified for Ireland but the ICC (Clive Lloyd, I think, actually had the final decision) allowed a shorter time because Ireland claimed the World Cup was earlier in the year than previous tournaments and in the normal run of events the 4 years would have elapsed by the time the World Cup came around.

Glad to have him back but I think we will be waiting for a while for Eoin Morgan to re-qualify.

pretty sure doesnt matter if ed was playing for england, i dont know why there was any drama with the ICC "letting him play" he was born in ireland so he can play for ireland anytime he wants (ICC's rule number one), unless he gives up his irish citizenship

d'Oracle

imported_guy wrote: »

here it is



pretty sure you asked why would someone want to live in england and play county cricket if they didnt want to play for the national team... otherwise your question made no sense (maybe you tried to ask what was ED doing in england if he wasnt playing county cricket?, maybe he was just trying to get the 183 days requirement?)

That is more or less the rank opposite of what I said.
In fact, you would have to be pretty damn clueless about cricket to say that, being that many of the top test players from around the world do a stint in County Cricket at some stage.

imported_guy

darjeeling wrote: »

Well, given that many in the Irish team are playing county cricket in England and building towards residency, the relevant ICC rules are the ones relating to switching between international teams, as I was pointing out. And these are:

but doesnt that conflict with the first rule?

anyone whos born in a country can play for them whenever they like (para phrased)

so lets say a pakistani player becomes an english national and decides to play for england, but he was born in pakistan so are you saying he has to wait 4 years to be eligable to play for pakistan, even though rule 1 clearly says you're allowed to play for the country you were born in at any time you want.

d'Oracle

imported_guy wrote: »

but doesnt that conflict with the first rule?

anyone whos born in a country can play for them whenever they like (para phrased)

so lets say a pakistani player becomes an english national and decides to play for england, but he was born in pakistan so are you saying he has to wait 4 years to be eligable to play for pakistan, even though rule 1 clearly says you're allowed to play for the country you were born in at any time you want.

There is more than those rules.
Look at Part C.
Jesus, at least read the document you are quoting.

imported_guy

d'Oracle wrote: »

That is more or less the rank opposite of what I said.
In fact, you would have to be pretty damn clueless about cricket to say that, being that many of the top test players from around the world do a stint in County Cricket at some stage.

i thought we agreed county cricket had nothing to do with being eligable to play for england?

imported_guy

d'Oracle wrote: »

There is more than those rules.
Look at Part C.
Jesus, at least read the document you are quoting.

is this what you're talking about?

where a male Player is seeking to qualify to play for a Full Member, he must not have participated in an International Match for any other Full Member during the immediately preceding four years;

lets use azhar's example here, hes a british citizen now, he can play for england

but are you telling me he cant play for pakistan tomorrow even though he was born there and rule number one says

A Player shall be qualified to play for a National Cricket Federation where he/she satisfies at least one of the following requirements:
1. the Player was born in the relevant country;

d'Oracle

imported_guy wrote: »

i thought we agreed county cricket had nothing to do with being eligable to play for england?

No, you quoted a post of mine saying that we agreed county cricket has nothing to do with it, after I asked you to explain what I posted that you disagreed with.

This response has in turn nothing to do with the huge misinterpretation of my post which you had quoted.

imported_guy wrote: »

lets use azhar's example here, hes a british citizen now, he can play for england

but are you telling me he cant play for pakistan tomorrow even though he was born there and rule number one says

Lets not, because his situation is totally different.

No, nobody is telling you that, because nobody is talking about Azher Mahmood because this is not a conversation about Azher Mahmood.

It is about Dockerill, Joyce and Morgan.

Also, nothing is in anyway in conflict with the core eligibility principles.
This is really clear.

reb73

No

Here's a nice little column by Ted Corbett in the Hindu, found it an interesting read..

NWPat

imported_guy wrote: »

there are plenty of people who dont want to play for england but still play english county cricket and are english perm residents/nationals I.E azhar mahmood, hes been playing for pakistan until the last world cup, hes been an english perm resident for quite some time and is an english national too, but he was born in pakistan so he is automatically eligable to play for pakistan. pretty sure this is how ed got around playing for ireland again.

Hate to be a pedant but there is no such thing as an English national. If there was there would be English passports, there are not. This is why welsh men such as Tony Lewis, Robert Croft, Steve Watkin and Scotsmen Gavin hamilton, Mike Denness and most famously Douglas Jardine etc. have played test cricket for England.

imported_guy

NWPat wrote: »

Hate to be a pedant but there is no such thing as an English national. If there was there would be English passports, there are not. This is why welsh men such as Tony Lewis, Robert Croft, Steve Watkin and Scotsmen Gavin hamilton, Mike Denness and most famously Douglas Jardine etc. have played test cricket for England.

if i said british passport then that would include scotland they have their own national team, ECB is english and welsh cricket board, so i thought anyone with common sense would make those deductions

NWPat

imported_guy wrote: »

if i said british passport then that would include scotland they have their own national team, ECB is english and welsh cricket board, so i thought anyone with common sense would make those deductions

If you had said British you would have been correct, but you weren't. There is still no such thing as an English national, anyone with common sense would know this. Scotish palyers have on numerous occassions played for England, so what is your point.

imported_guy

NWPat wrote: »

If you had said British you would have been correct, but you weren't. There is still no such thing as an English national, anyone with common sense would know this. Scotish palyers have on numerous occassions played for England, so what is your point.

so have irish, whats your point then? any nationality can play for any other, there are just regulations that need to be followed.

d'Oracle

NWPat wrote: »

Hate to be a pedant but there is no such thing as an English national. If there was there would be English passports, there are not. This is why welsh men such as Tony Lewis, Robert Croft, Steve Watkin and Scotsmen Gavin hamilton, Mike Denness and most famously Douglas Jardine etc. have played test cricket for England.

Just for a little competitive pedantry.
The welsh lads played for England because it is the England and Wales Team.
The ECB is technically the England and Wales Cricket board and Glamorgan play county cricket.

LondonIrish90

NWPat wrote: »

Hate to be a pedant but there is no such thing as an English national. If there was there would be English passports, there are not. This is why welsh men such as Tony Lewis, Robert Croft, Steve Watkin and Scotsmen Gavin hamilton, Mike Denness and most famously Douglas Jardine etc. have played test cricket for England.

No its not. Its actually because the team actually represents the England and Wales cricket board.

Always has been that way, England is just an abbreviation in truth. Fair few Welsh flags all over the aussie grounds this winter!

NWPat

Welsh, Scots. N irish can play for England without any qualification process because they are the same nationality. My point was and is that azhar mahmood is not an "english national".

NWPat

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

No its not. Its actually because the team actually represents the England and Wales cricket board.

Always has been that way, England is just an abbreviation in truth. Fair few Welsh flags all over the aussie grounds this winter!

That explains the Welsh, but not the Scots.

d'Oracle

NWPat wrote: »

Welsh, Scots. N irish can play for England without any qualification process because they are the same nationality. My point was and is that azhar mahmood is not an "english national".

Oh no.......

If I were a mod I would close this thread till I was sure the mental is gone.
There is literally no good or logical reason to be discussing Azher Mahmood.

imported_guy was making no sense at all when he brought him into it, considering his case is totally and entirely different from the cases we were discussing.

That said, he is a naturalised citizen of the UK. He could concievably play for England as he hasn't played for another Full Member in the last 4 years.
(He played test cricket for Pakistan, a full member, like 10 years ago) The clearest reason for him applying for british citizenship, is nothing to do with playing international or Test cricket, but rather to allow Kent to field another foreign player.

He will, most likely, never play international cricket for anybody ever again.

NWPat

d'Oracle wrote: »

Oh no.......

If I were a mod I would close this thread till I was sure the mental is gone.
There is literally no good or logical reason to be discussing Azher Mahmood.

imported_guy was making no sense at all when he brought him into it, considering his case is totally and entirely different from the cases we were discussing.

That said, he is a naturalised citizen of the UK. He could concievably play for England as he hasn't played for another Full Member in the last 4 years.
(He played test cricket for Pakistan, a full member, like 10 years ago) The clearest reason for him applying for british citizenship, is nothing to do with playing international or Test cricket, but rather to allow Kent to field another foreign player.

He will, most likely, never play international cricket for anybody ever again.

If you're going to post abuse I will join you and suggest you Fukc Off, and the mental with the superiorty complex will be gone.

Gracelessly Tom

NWPat wrote: »

Hate to be a pedant but there is no such thing as an English national. If there was there would be English passports, there are not. This is why welsh men such as Tony Lewis, Robert Croft, Steve Watkin and Scotsmen Gavin hamilton, Mike Denness and most famously Douglas Jardine etc. have played test cricket for England.

This is so wrong. Being an English national has nothing whatsoever to do with having an English passport. England is a country therefore you can be an English national. Some prime examples of English national things are English national anthem or the English national football team. Nationality has nothing to do with a passport.

d'Oracle

NWPat wrote: »

If you're going to post abuse I will join you and suggest you Fukc Off, and the mental with the superiorty complex will be gone.

I have neither acted superior nor abused anybody.

loosecannon

No

Unreal! Amazing scenes from the lads - Come on Ireland today beat the Indians!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri9ckrokV94

cooker3

Out of interest. I wrote a big review of attending the game on IPB. It's quite long but cricket fans here may enjoy it.

http://www.irishpokerboards.com/forum/showpost.php?p=276741&postcount=118924

Judgement Day

No

Good review - I can only imagine how you must have felt being there as I was elated even watching from a bar stool in Enniscorthy. What happened to your ticket? I guess it won't fetch much on eBay - just kidding!

cooker3

Judgement Day wrote: »

Good review - I can only imagine how you must have felt being there as I was elated even watching from a bar stool in Enniscorthy. What happened to your ticket? I guess it won't fetch much on eBay - just kidding!

When you enter the stadium they security rip the ticket half way down to eh well not sure what it's meant to show seeing as you got searched going in everytime in anyway but I can wrote an equally as long entry on the stupid rules and regulations involved.

Copper_pipe

No

we should be there in 2015