Milk and Dairy

AMKC

I am not Vegan but I also do not drink cows milk or have any dairy products and have been doing so for at least 12 years. I will continue to not because I have a choice but because it does not agree with me. I did drink a lot of milk before that but now mostly drink Soya milk and some rice milk.
I have a cousin who can drink it but does not see drinks soya and rice milk instead. I also have a sister who used to not be able to drink it but very recently she found out she could but she did not like it when she tried it and does not drink it. She drinks Soya milk.

gozunda

AMKC wrote: »

I am not Vegan but I also do not drink cows milk or have any dairy products and have been doing so for at least 12 years. I will continue to not because I have a choice but because it does not agree with me. I did drink a lot of milk before that but now mostly drink Soya milk and some rice milk.
I have a cousin who can drink it but does not see drinks soya and rice milk instead. I also have a sister who used to not be able to drink it but very recently she found out she could but she did not like it when she tried it and does not drink it. She drinks Soya milk.

Be aware much of the highly processed soy based liquids produced have a bunch of additives and a significant amount of sugar.

That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

Oh and soy is one of the major allergens which have to be declared as an ingredient

And no I'm not a dairy farmer ...

Not quite the health food its made out to be tbh

AMKC

gozunda wrote: »

Be aware much of the highly processed soy based liquids produced have a bunch of additives and a significant amount of sugar.

That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

Oh and soy is one of the major allergens which have to be declared as an ingredient

And no I'm not a dairy farmer ...

Not quite the health food its made out to be tbh

I know what my allergies and intolerances are and soy thankfully is not one of them.
What's wrong with it been grown in South America?

gozunda

AMKC wrote: »

I know what my allergies and intolerances are and soy thankfully is not one of them.
What's wrong with it been grown in South America?

This:


https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/vegans-should-stop-drinking-soya-milk-in-order-to-save-the-rainforest-39454774.html

auspicious

Seeds from the soybean plant provide high protein animal feed for livestock, and 80% of Amazon soy is destined for animal feed; smaller percentages are used for oil or eaten directly.

https://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/amazon/land-use/soy

Almost 1.7mt of soya and maize genetically modified (GM) products were imported into Ireland for animal feeds in 2017, constituting approximately 50% of total feed imports.

We depend two times more on imported animal feed than our neighbours

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-30832683.html#:~:text=Almost%201.7mt%20of%20soya,from%20continental%20Europe%2C%20including%20Ukraine.

antor

gozunda wrote: »

That and a lot of the soybeans that go into soy liquid production are grown in South America.

Alpro , Europe's biggest producer of "soy liquid " get all their soybeans from French farms.

I don't think that has any impact on deforestation in South America.

gozunda

Auspicious - incorrect as to the point made.

Nearly all soybeans are processed for their oil. Soy processors (such as Cargill & ADM) take the raw soybeans and separate the oil from the meal.

https://ncsoy.org/media-resources/uses-of-soybeans

For each bean processed 20% is oil and the remainder (80%*) is mainly 'meal'.

The fact is almost all soy oil is sold for HUMAN use.

And yes most of that 'meal' left over from the production of oil - is used for animal feed including dog food, cat food, horse feed and also used for feeding chicken, pigs and yes some goes for 'cow' feed.

For example - here is it being used in 'vegan' dog food


In Ireland grass and fodder make up the largest proportion of all feed types for cattle.

...drinking milk produced from cows in Ireland uses far less soya than consuming drinks made from soya.

"Vegans and others who buy milk substitutes made from soya for their latte and cappuccino, or breakfast cereal, are also harming the planet. They would do better to switch to milk from cows, and especially cows traditionally grazed on grass, if they want to help make a more sustainable planet," the report states.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/vegans-should-stop-drinking-soya-milk-in-order-to-save-the-rainforest-39454774.html

As for the article about feedstuffs being imported into Ireland. The reason is because our climate and topography and soils are generally not suited to growing arable crops*. In the UK - this is less an issue and it therefore depends much less on such imports.

This is why grass-fed livestock farming is so important here.

* note this is where your '80%' figure in your first link comes from.

gozunda

antor wrote: »

Alpro , Europe's biggest producer of "soy liquid " get all their soybeans from French farms.
I don't think that has any impact on deforestation in South America.

I believe the actual figure for 'Alpro' is 60% from French farms - and that only since 2019. So no not 'all' by any means.

But I think you will find the Alpro Corporation is certainly not the only producer of soy liquid derivatives in town.

I'd suggest a bit more research if you really dont believe that soy production is not a cause of deforestation in South America

Here's some videos of a case which was taken in the US - where cheap soy waste was being incorporated into prison meals. Scarey watching ..

https://hartkeisonline.com/2009/11/13/prison-soy-press-conference-videos/

antor

gozunda wrote: »

I believe the actual figure for 'Alpro' is 60% from French farms - and that only since 2019. So no not 'all' by any means.

You're right , they only get 60% from Europe, the other 40% comes from Canada.

At the last count, in 2017, 60% of the soybeans Alpro used were sourced in Europe (the target was 50%). The other 40% came from Canada. Here in Issenheim, 100% of the beans have been sourced within a 50km radius since 2009. “[By doing that] we shorten the supply chain and limit the transport footprint,” ​explained Greet Vanderhayden, sustainability manager at Alpro.

gozunda wrote: »

But I think you will find the Alpro Corporation is certainly not the only producer of soy liquid derivatives in town.

Ture , but if you look at this list you will see that the majority of soy liquid producers in Europe, (apart from a few outliers), get their soyabean from within the EU or Canada.

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/food-drink/shopping-guide/vegan-non-dairy-milk

gozunda wrote: »

I'd suggest a bit more research if you really dont believe that soy production is not a cause of deforestation in South America

I never said that , Im well aware that soybean production in South America is detrimental to the environment. I was saying that a company that doesn't get its soyabean from South America would hardly have an impact on deforestation in South America.

gozunda

antor wrote: »

You're right , they only get 60% from Europe, the other 40% comes from Canada...

I think the main point is Alpro (which is owned by Danone) is certainly not the only corporation selling soy liquid derivitives. And its not only Europe where this is an issue btw.

That said Alpro in Europe seems to have cleaned up its act in the last 3 years. Good on them.

But I strongly suspect that's down to the negative publicity of Soy related deforestation and same affecting its market share.

The statement attributed to them in your link is just downright ambiguous tbh.

In the past where we did not source our beans from Brazil, they were also not from our rainforest or deforested areas"

Similar ambiguity has got them in hot water previously

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2020/02/05/Danone-to-rethink-communication-on-Alpro-soy-product-following-accusations-it-misleads-consumers

The list linked certainly gives some brands as being sourced from EU and elsewhere

However at the bottom of that list it details

EcoMil, Granovita, Holland & Barrett, Co-op, Aldi, M&S

No info found.

Most of the supermarkets source soya from South America.

antor

gozunda wrote: »

I think the main point is Alpro (which is owned by Danone) is certainly not the only corporation selling soy liquid derivitives. And its not only Europe where this is an issue btw.

Here is a more extensive list , it's also more up to date. It includes Silk ,the US biggest soy liquid producer (also owned by Danone) they use home grown soybeans.

https://www.viva.org.uk/soya-planet

Just back to that article you linked

https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39454774.html

The headlines 'Vegans should stop drinking soya milk in order to save the rainforest'

Do you really believe that ??

Just had a quick look online and apparently there is 73 million vegans worldwide (Im sure thats a very loose figure)

You would have to reduce that number due to some people having a soy allergy.

Reduce it again as some vegans just don't like soy juice (it's an acquired taste).

Reduce it again to account for the people that buy soy juice from producers that don't use soybeans from South America , which is the majority.

And with the number of people that's left , if they gave up drinking soy juice we could save the rainforest.

What a load of BS

gozunda

antor wrote: »

Here is a more extensive list , it's also more up to date. It includes Silk ,the US biggest soy liquid producer (also owned by Danone) they use home grown soybeans. ]https://www.viva.org.uk/soya-planet
Just back to that article you linked
https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39454774.html. The headlines 'Vegans should stop drinking soya milk in order to save the rainforest'
Do you really believe that ??
...

It was already noted from your previous link that supermarkets source a lot of soy from S. America

And notably Asia Pacific dominates the market as many countries like China, India, Japan, South Korea, and Hong Kong are the major consumers of the product

Selected information from random website promoting veganism and conjectured back of napkin calculations doesn't really cut it tbh. So if you dont mind I'll leave that discussion there.

As for the article - the headline is an attention grabber for sure lol.

From the article.

The global consumption of soya products has been rising, but many are produced on deforested land with the Amazon rainforest suffering great losses due to soya production

And yes I think that has merit. It makes a point. That eveyone should stop using soy products from S. America. Especially where it impacts rainforest and other fragile habitats. And no its not just liquid derivitives of soy, or soy oil. Its all highly processed soy products. Soy often sourced in S. America is now added to bread and confectionery, used to make fake meats and added as a filler to an ever increasing amount of foods. See the videos I linked previously.

Ireland has a huge benefit over many countries in that the bulk of what cattle are fed is grass based. Yes some feeds are imported and from my own investigations into this - it would appear that much of this comes from the EU and the US.

Personally I'm not a fan of soy products for a wide range of reasons.

auspicious

Jjameson wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8722215/amp/vegan-parents-starved-baby-nutrients-badly-one-year-old-developed-cerebral-palsy.html


Cruelty??

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DGThg6xaOXvE&ved=2ahUKEwi6pPO-gf7rAhXxRBUIHUtqCLoQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2s3DxmohWrVoyB0y5c0AUq


Negligent parents
https://www.google.com/search?q=obese+1+year+old&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&prmd=isnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ7dDfhP7rAhUKRhUIHTxNDPwQ_AUoAXoECA4QAQ&biw=360&bih=594&dpr=3#imgrc=kw86yOsgOA176M

auspicious

Jjameson wrote: »

https://www.irishpost.com/news/irish-american-couple-starved-toddler-death-vegan-diet-charged-murder-175974

Inflicting their “belief” on an infant.
Strict radicalised Vegan parents = cruelty to children.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwbGZ7agvo
No forced beliefs. Just a healthy diet.

auspicious

Jjameson wrote: »

Like any child reared in a cult. Monkey see monkey do. Leaving a child malnourished in a first world country because of a deranged narrative or as I more commonly known as “ belief” is disgusting.

.

Have you never lovingly referred to your own kids as little monkeys �

auspicious

Jjameson wrote: »

Wtf.

Monkey see monkey do. Why did your kids eat what they ate? Because of your beliefs perhaps? Did did have a baptism?
All parents force their beliefs on their children.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_zwbGZ7agvo
No forced beliefs. Just a healthy diet.

Tbf - it wasnt healthy for that child. And with that I think that article brings this thread to a point.

There are lots of reports of children and babies ending up with life threatening conditions and / or malnurishment having been fed exclusively vegan diets.

And no out of respect for the forum - I'm not going to list any of them.

Regardless of how horrendous these reports are - in all probability they represent only a fraction of people. Much as the absolute majority of dairying farms are managed both ethically and legally contrary to the title of this thread

It would be interesting to see the resulting outrage if someone started a thread in the farming forum - titled "Vegan diets = cruelty to children".

Time for this thread to be closed down and stop encouraging hate against others.

auspicious

Jjameson wrote: »

Requiring regular blood tests, artificial supplements. The diet is an ethical choice for people based on a nonsensical narrative. It’s unfortunate it didn’t render some of the examples above sterile quite quickly enough to save the suffering of their innocent offspring.

https://qz.com/1622642/making-your-kids-go-vegan-can-mean-jail-time-in-belgium/amp/

There should be European directives.

The public, even doctors, are not taught about nutrition.
Every parent should know how to feed their child a healthy diet.
The article you posted addresses concerns about inadequately provided diets by unknowledgeable parents.
This should also apply to negligent parents feeding kids a terrible diet of sugar and fast food, that grow obese or have tooth decay and fillings etc as a result.

From your article
"...Although there have been case reports of children failing to thrive or developing cobalamin deficiency on vegan diets, these are rare exceptions,” the academy notes on its website. “Multiple experts have concluded independently that vegan diets can be followed safely by infants and children without compromise of nutrition or growth and with some notable health benefits.”

auspicious

This thread is about Milk and dairy = cruelty, and the suffering, abuse and torture animals suffer for an unnecessary diet as it has been proven and signed off on by numerous experts that a diet without meat and dairy is adequate and healthy.
The hate vegans have is for the suffering animals endure unnecessarily at human hands.
But I think that is known already.

auspicious

Jjameson wrote: »

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/29/vegans-trial-death-baby-breast-milk

Yes. Again negligent parenting. You are not doing a lot to convince people of your belief.
I think you are in the wrong page. You should be preaching about the perils of bad parenting on the Parenting page.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

This thread is about Milk and dairy = cruelty, and the suffering, abuse and torture animals suffer for an unnecessary diet as it has been proven and signed off on by numerous experts that a diet without meat and dairy is adequate and healthy.
The hate vegans have is for the suffering animals endure unnecessarily at human hands.
But I think that is known already.

Missed the point made?

From the title of the thread - it is clear that this thread is about pushing a lifestyle choice by means of denigrating others specifically dairy farming.

And Just as a thread about "Vegan diets = cruelty to children". could be used to show the suffering, abuse and torture of children and babies because those parents choose to inflict a dangerous / unnecessary diet on babies and children - all of which would be proven and signed off on by numerous experts as being potentially harmful.

What would you think of such a thread? I personally think it would be wrong

That said hate and intolerance some vegan threads show for others is little better the above scenario tbh. And all that despite the absolute majority of farms being managed legally and ethically.

But I think that is known already.

Thelonious Monk

Jjameson wrote: »

There is no productive or economic benefit to abuse or torture. Thriving content animals are the most efficient and productive.

https://www.thejournal.ie/up-to-2000-pigs-killed-in-farm-blaze-in-co-down-5198692-Sep2020

This is how pigs are farmed in Ireland, crammed in on top of each other in boxes and never seeing the light of day. You think these are thriving and content? No, rearing animals this way is abuse and torture done purely for money.

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/up-to-2000-pigs-killed-in-farm-blaze-in-co-down-5198692-Sep2020

This is how pigs are farmed in Ireland, crammed in on top of each other in boxes and never seeing the light of day. You think these are thriving and content? No, rearing animals this way is abuse and torture done purely for money.

Thats in Northern Ireland btw.

You should do a bit more reading tbf. I personally would advocate for free range systems. But your description is wrong. Pigs are not "crammed in on top of each other in boxes".

This is a working indoor system in the UK. which as in Ireland must meet statutory stocking controls

https://youtu.be/5zifDcGVaKE?t=2m49s

Where there are incidents of poor animal welfare - that should be dealt with. Not used as a stick to beat others with ...

antor

Interesting video

antor

tismesoitis wrote: »

Interesting video??? If you believe everything you see and hear then there is no hope for you. This whole thread is a disgrace. Borderline incitement to hatred

Sorry mate did not mean to upset you. If you want me to delete the post I will. I don’t mind. I’m not one for getting into debates online. I really don’t have the time.

I just found it interesting that the majority of the world’s population are lactose intolerant. I really thought it was the other way around. Well I suppose its what kind of culture you are brought up in.
I’m lactose intolerant, do you know what that’s like??

If you have a small bit of dairy you will have a bad dose of diarrhoea. If you consume a lot of dairy, you end up with a massive migraine with a lot of vomiting. Once its out of your system your grand.

So, its best just to avoid dairy altogether.

If you want to enlighten me about the lies in that video, I’m all ears.

Bigbooty

I don't know what his problem is, we have the right to question accepted practices. There would be no social progress if people didn't challenge the status quo. If that offends you that's your issue.

Gary kk

I think he forgot about goats milk. Sheep are also milked has more to do with the teat shape and size plus the return for effort. Like who the feck would milk a dog. Urbanization led to an increase in the dairy farming. Most house holds had a cow or would have bought milk directly from their neighbor's. Haven't checked anything else for facts in the video but given those two glaring holes would there be much point.

Gary kk

On a side note I enjoyed the background music.

Thelonious Monk

https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/15/alleged-animal-abuse-in-us-dairy-sector-under-investigation

antor

Gary kk wrote: »

I think he forgot about goats milk. Sheep are also milked has more to do with the teat shape and size plus the return for effort. Like who the feck would milk a dog. Urbanization led to an increase in the dairy farming. Most house holds had a cow or would have bought milk directly from their neighbor's. Haven't checked anything else for facts in the video but given those two glaring holes would there be much point.

I really think you debunked that video with that post.

He focuses on dairy cows because 85% of all milk worldwide comes from cows. When was the last time you popped into a corner shop and got a pint of sheep’s milk???
Humans also consume milk from water buffalos, camels, donkeys, horses, pigs, reindeer and yaks.
Like who the feck would milk a horse.

He talks about dedicated dairy farms. A quick look on google and you will find that there were very few dairy farms in the US before WW1. To be classed as a dairy farm 40% of your income must come from dairy. With a high demand for dairy around that period more famers got into dedicated dairy farming.