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United Left Alliance will form party, says Higgins

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    #32
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #33
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Some never get tired of repeating the same old rhetoric I see.


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    #34
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Stop being childish. The SP/ULA alliance added to their already very credible local base with a significant protest vote. That is what happens when capitalism goes through one of its inherent failures.


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    #35
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Are you talking as a mod?

    The left made phenomenal gains and here is is before the count is even finished belittling the electorate who are clearly inferior to him

    I'm telling you what not to do. Of course I'm talking as a mod. Attack his points, not himself.


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    #36
    rantie
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭rantie


    Why don't you set down all you know about 'trotskyism' here? Or maybe on Twitter. The 140-character limit should suit you!
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


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    #37
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    permabear, you are oozing bitterness. the smugness that over 35% of the electorate who voted left are wrong and will be shown up is pathetic.

    The electorate moved to the left. That happens when the right fail as dramatically as they have in the last 3 years.

    Deal with it and move on.


    Just looking at the swing since the last election in 2007, and including FF as centre, or centre-right wing party, and excluding independents, the shift to those further to the left of FF has been about 6%. That's not exactly a dramatic syrge leftwards, especially when one considers that centre/centre-right parties still accounted for a majority of the vote cast.


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    #38
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Stop being childish. The SP/ULA alliance added to their already very credible local base with a significant protest vote. That is what happens when capitalism goes through one of its inherent failures.

    If the hard left wins only 20 seats "when capitalism goes through one of its inherent failures" then I'd hate to see it on a bad day.

    It is arrogant to suggest that the electorate has moved to the left, because it is a statement that professes to know what the electorate wants, not the mention the fact that it is blinded by wishful thinking when spoken by a leftist. There are few things that can be said of the electorate's wishes with certainty, but two of which are that the people don't want Fianna Fáil in government, and that they'd favour a Fine Gael/Labour Party coalition.


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    #39
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Everytime i hear SFer use the word "business" I cringe

    Is there any member of SF who ran a real business (of the legal kind)?


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    #40
    joulter
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭joulter


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Everytime i hear SFer use the word "business" I cringe

    Is there any member of SF who ran a real business (of the legal kind)?

    arthur morgan retired to spend more time running his business i think


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    #41
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    The electorate moved to the left.

    to the left?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/results/index.html

    -24% FF who are center/left/allovershop pursued public expenditure + welfare increase policies well above rate of economic growth which would make the most ardent socialists blush
    +8.8% gain for FG center right
    +9.3% gain for Lab center left
    +6.8% to independents from all over spectrum
    +3% gain to SF, left
    -3% loss Green, authoritarian center left
    +1.6% socialists, people before profit far left


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    #42
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    I didnt say capitalism is collapsing, I said the current crisis is nowhere near played out.

    Instead our crony capitalists are doing what all modern neoliberal capitalist systems do, as soon as they start losing money they socialise the losses, soviet style. Right up to the point where they can start generating profit again, then they suddenly become capitalists again overnight.

    And save your breath with the "thats not true capitalism" line, its as tired and hollow as the "thats not true communism" line from the reds when you point out the huge holes in their equally obnoxious, emptyheaded politic.
    nesf wrote:
    We didn't have a lightly regulated market, far from it. We had a badly regulated market.

    There's an enormous difference between the two.
    The political machine appointed a simpleton as a regulator here, I simply dont believe it was anything other than deliberate. Rather than face the political headaches of being openly light-regulation, they used a gombeenman and generated the same outcomes through his incompetence.


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    #43
    rantie
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭rantie


    Not surprising that this politically illiterate rant is coming from Donegal, the most conservative enclave of bunker capitalism on the island.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


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    #44
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    CiaranC wrote: »
    The political machine appointed a simpleton as a regulator here, I simply dont believe it was anything other than deliberate. Rather than face the political headaches of being openly light-regulation, they used a gombeenman and generated the same outcomes through his incompetence.

    The thing is that light regulation does not mean bad regulation. E.g. we appointed a competent regulator and suddenly our system seems to work very well. You can have a well regulated lightly regulated market by having a regulator who effectively enforces what regulation that exists. Our problem was that we had a regulator who simply didn't do that.

    We make a dreadful mistake by blaming our crisis on light regulation because this was patently not the problem! We need to focus less on the regulation itself and more on the appointment of solid regulators to enforce it. All the regulation in the world won't help you if you have a damp squib sitting in the regulator's chair.


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    #45
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    rantie wrote: »
    Not surprising that this politically illiterate rant is coming from Donegal, the most conservative enclave of bunker capitalism on the island.

    two SF candidates elected there...


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    #46
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    is there any confirmation that they are to form a "party" as opposed to a Dail technical group? i.e are the socialist party now merging with the SWP /PBP and the few independents into one new party?


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    #47
    rantie
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭rantie


    Yes, and 1 FF 2fg and in IND who will not be dancing with Gerry! Also I would worry about the allegiances that might elect SF in the two Donegal constituencies.
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    two SF candidates elected there...


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    #48
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    The ULA may as well become a party - a technical group doesn't have the same privileges AFAIK.

    It wont be trotskyite for very long - the SWP always lose control of parties they form because they would lose their deposit were they to run on their own. So the parliamentarians will 10K dont depend on them.

    Healy from South Tipp. is a strong socialist but not influenced by any kind of nonsenscial theory. Only rich boy Barret will have anything in common with the SWP.


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    #49
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #50
    Rubik.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rubik.


    nesf wrote: »
    The thing is that light regulation does not mean bad regulation. E.g. we appointed a competent regulator and suddenly our system seems to work very well. You can have a well regulated lightly regulated market by having a regulator who effectively enforces what regulation that exists. Our problem was that we had a regulator who simply didn't do that.

    We make a dreadful mistake by blaming our crisis on light regulation because this was patently not the problem! We need to focus less on the regulation itself and more on the appointment of solid regulators to enforce it. All the regulation in the world won't help you if you have a damp squib sitting in the regulator's chair.

    Regling's report into the banking crisis specifically criticised the new system of banking regulation brought in 2003.

    "The twin-headed bank regulatory framework in Ireland from 2003 onwards was a hybird, by global standards. The new regulatory structure had emerged from a policy of compromise, and this genesis did not help its credibility, or indeed encourage a focus on marcoprudential risks.... There was also some questions, in this framework, about ultimate responsibility and lines of command."


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    #51
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Thats mainly because these "free market liberals" are a figment of your imagination. They dont actually exist anywhere but in your dreams and in the boring, overly long, repetitive, obnoxious, poorly written pages of Ayn Rand novels. You are the only libertarian in Ireland and even you voted for Fine Gael, who are all for bailing out private enterprises with tax payers money. Which was apparently "theft" last year when they were giving this money to some dying kid with Leukemia in Crumlins hospital, but this year its entirely necessary to put the systems where our good old "free market liberals" friends can go back to raking in the cash right back in place.

    "Free market liberals" my hole. A bunch of doublethinking hypocrites who champion free markets right up to the point of the last drop of cash they can wring out of their failed systems then go banging the begging bowl for johnny PAYE to bail them out, again and again and again.

    At least these clowns on the left actually believe the nonsense they spout, instead of having to do mental gymnastics to convince themselves and everyone else that their politics are anything other than a despicable charade.


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    #52
    Wildlife Actor
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Wildlife Actor


    Maybe it's for a different thread, but isn't this whole problem of Independents being useless and having to form technical groups to achieve anything one of the strongest arguments for reducing the Dail to 50 or 60 members. I don't know the figures but it seems that an independent gets virtually no airtime ("Dail privileges") whatsoever. Meanwhile the backbenchers in the majority don't need the airtime as they're whipped into their position. If we had 50 or 60 TDs there would be fewer independents but at least, those that were there would have a worthwhile opportunity to contribute.


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    #53
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    I think independents serve a purpose.


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    #54
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    Only rich boy Barret will have anything in common with the SWP.

    in common? He is the SWP, as well as all their many spin off groups.
    If you mean in common with the socialist party then yes he would be close. Joan collins of the SWP/PBP is a former socialist party member so she would be able to make the leap too. As far as I know the difference between the swp and the sp has its basis in socialist theory, a not very relevant point if I remember. I'm sure members of either group will post to correct me. Another difference is that the SWP dont contest elections and gave the SP a hard time when they entered elections back a few years ago. I think Barret realised his mistake when he seen Higgins profile rise after his first election and went on to form PBP who do now contest elections. I'm not sure how he squares that off against the SWP stance on not entering elections but perhaps he's now abandoned that and decided to merge with Higgins afterall.

    I'd still like to see some confirmation though as both groups can be fairly critical of each other. Are you sure it's not just a technical grouping as opposed to one new single political party?


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    #55
    Wildlife Actor
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Wildlife Actor


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    I think independents serve a purpose.

    I agree. They contribute to the necessary tension between cabinet and legislature.


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    #56
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    clown bag wrote: »
    in common? He is the SWP, as well as all their many spin off groups.

    Yeah, I know he is SWP. The SWP dont want to compete in Elections for reasons of ideology ( being entryists) and because they are disliked.

    What I am saying is that the SWP appeals to the dis-affected middle class, or a certain type of student, and the socialist party and Healy's group are genuine representatives of the working classes. Even Barret is a bigger name than his supposed backers in the SWP - this always happens to them. ( See Respect in the UK).

    So this group will, if it forms, jetison whatever links it has.


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    #57
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Thats mainly because these "free market liberals" are a figment of your imagination. They dont actually exist anywhere but in your dreams and in the boring, overly long, repetitive, obnoxious, poorly written pages of Ayn Rand novels.

    Libertarianism doesn't actually exist? I've heard it all now! I would describe myself as a libertarian, but apparently I exist only in Permabear's imagination. I thought this was the politics forum, but it would appear as though I've stumbled into the script for Inception...


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    #58
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    20Cent wrote: »
    If FG insist on making the workers and poor pay for the sins of the banks expect the ULA to grow and grow. I'd give this Gov 18 months before it implodes and the ULA will make huge gains in the next election.

    And it won't take long then till we start making a real recovery.


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    #59
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Soldie wrote: »
    Libertarianism doesn't actually exist? I've heard it all now! I would describe myself as a libertarian, but apparently I exist only in Permabear's imagination. I thought this was the politics forum, but it would appear as though I've stumbled into the script for Inception...

    I think he means that there is no real libertarianism in practice. The sinews of State and capitalism are so entwined that capitalists would collapse in any real libertarian State - which in extreme as crazy as anarchism.

    Even PermaBear seems to be a employee of a university, a State organisation.


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    #60
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Both Marxism and Libertarianism are simple theories pretending to be complex. Marxism's dialetics, false consciousness, labour theory of value are all rot - the libertarians idea that modern capitalism would survive without massive State intervention is also rot.

    They exist because we can't model the world properly, or mathematically. If we could do, we probably would come to the conclusion that some version of the mixed economy is best, and were the equations complex enough we could work out that a particular exotic financial instrument would be disastrous, and a level of State involvement and taxation would be best as this level, but not at that.


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    #61
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    I think he means that there are no real libertarian. The sinews of State and capitalism are so entwined that capitalists would collapse in any real libertarian State - which in extreme as crazy as anarchism.

    What about Congressman Ron Paul, who has earned himself the nickname Dr. No for voting against any legislation not authorised by the Constitution?

    Instead of claiming that there are no real libertarians whatsoever, a more accurate statement would be that there are not enough libertarians to effect a significant change in politics towards the direction of smaller government and fiscal conservatism.
    Even PermaBear seems to be a employee of a university, a State organisation.

    I fail to see how that's relevant.


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