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United Left Alliance will form party, says Higgins

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    #62
    Rubik.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rubik.


    Soldie wrote: »
    Libertarianism doesn't actually exist? I've heard it all now! I would describe myself as a libertarian, but apparently I exist only in Permabear's imagination. I thought this was the politics forum, but it would appear as though I've stumbled into the script for Inception...

    I don't agree with a lot of ULA's policies, but enough people did to elect 4 of them, as such they have a mandate. Libertarians may be overrepresented on internet forums, but they wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting elected to The Dail. So it could be said, in Irish politics anyway, libertarianism doesn't exist.


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    #63
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    The SWP does believe in running candidates in elections, look back through the records, RBB ran as an SWP candidate before PbP was set up. So much rubbish in this thread it's unreal. Stick to the facts, FG=bad ;)


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    #64
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #65
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    The SWP does believe in running candidates in elections, look back through the records, RBB ran as an SWP candidate before PbP was set up. So much rubbish in this thread it's unreal. Stick to the facts, FG=bad ;)

    I've met RBB a few times, albeit nearly 10 years ago at this stage. I might be out of date with his current thinking but back then he was adamant that he or the SWP wouldn't stand in elections and he criticised other left parties for doing it. I was amused when eventually one of his many I can't believe its not the SWP groups, i.e PBP ran candidates. Obviously Richard has had a change of heart over the years. Not criticising him for it, just pointing out the fact ;)

    I see you have a PBP avatar, can you confirm a merger of socialist party and SWP / PBP or is the OP off the mark?


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    #66
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #67
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    to the left?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/results/index.html

    -24% FF who are center/left/allovershop pursued public expenditure + welfare increase policies well above rate of economic growth which would make the most ardent socialists blush
    +8.8% gain for FG center right
    +9.3% gain for Lab center left
    +6.8% to independents from all over spectrum
    +3% gain to SF, left
    -3% loss Green, authoritarian center left
    +1.6% socialists, people before profit far left

    When you look at it that and take in the collapse of the Greens too, it's hardly earth shattering.

    Somebody touched on it earlier, the ULA vote would be mostly personal, good local hard working candidates and a protest vote.

    I've heard this talk of a new politics before, 1989 and 1992 when the Workers Party and Democratic Left made gains together with a more left Labour party. Can't see this being any different.

    Having said that there is potential for left gains next time with FG & Labour naturally being unpopular and gains to be made. I think SF has a better chance of gains though.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #68
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    You clearly earn too much Permabear. You need to be taxed more to make it more equitable.


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    #69
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Clucking bell, that is clutching at straws


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    #70
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #71
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,189 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Spudmonkey wrote: »
    You need to be taxed more to make it more equitable.

    The most truthful statement you have made here


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    #72
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    The most truthful statement you have made here

    And it happened to be rife with sarcasm. I get so fed up of the rolly eyes.


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    #73
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Rubik. wrote: »
    Libertarians may be overrepresented on internet forums, but they wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting elected to The Dail. So it could be said, in Irish politics anyway, libertarianism doesn't exist.

    It's hardly surprising that there's little-to-no appetite for libertarians in the Dáil when we have such a pervasive level of entitlement in this country. To tell the same electorate who shrieked and howled at the supposedly "savage" cuts made by Fianna Fáil that you wish to drastically reduce the competencies of the state wouldn't win much favour.

    Nevertheless, CiaranC's point wasn't that libertarianism doesn't exist in Irish politics; it was just an aimless rant with little substance.


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    #74
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #75
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    So are the libertarians on this thread - the only two in Ireland - in favour of State Education. Or not?


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    #76
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    So are the libertarians on this thread - the only two in Ireland - in favour of State Education. Or not?

    I don't want to avoid your question, but this is clearly off-topic, so I don't think we should get into that here.


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    #77
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Fair enough.

    So, to get back on topic, are there any links to any sources on this new party. Nothing on RTE.


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    #78
    rantie
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭rantie


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    What do the dole claimants of Donegal want to be equal to? Republicans? Democrats? Each other?
    This is all nonsense.
    What hope have we in the 21st century when the main political parties call themselves by names which no longer have any meaning unless you are one hundred and ten years old and still fighting the civil war.
    Could we please all come into the present and address the real problems we face. (Sovereign default, collapsing government agencies, health service that is not fit for purpose.)
    For f***'s sake the National Roads Authority were refused funding by the banks last week! We are going bankrupt people. WAKE UP!


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    #79
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    rantie wrote: »
    For f***'s sake the National Roads Authority were refused funding by the banks last week! We are going bankrupt people. WAKE UP!

    I don't think anyone is under the illusion that we aren't, except for the ULA who seem to think there is an endless supply of wealthy people there waiting to be taxed.


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    #80
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Rubik. wrote: »
    I don't agree with a lot of ULA's policies, but enough people did to elect 4 of them, as such they have a mandate. Libertarians may be overrepresented on internet forums, but they wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting elected to The Dail. So it could be said, in Irish politics anyway, libertarianism doesn't exist.

    Libertarians are overrepresented on internet forums because that is the only discernible use for it. Being smug, condescending and slagging off everyone on the Internet. In reality any libertarian you come across will certainly be a total hypocrite.
    Bemoaning minimum wage, SW benefits and the public sector forgetting that the biggest recipients of state aid are actually the businesses they support so much. People who do actual work are lazy and overpaid while they will argue vehemently for industries such as the financial markets which would not exist except for the bailouts they received.
    It is a childish, unrealistic and unpopular ideology. This is reflected in the support such positions receive in real life, ie none. If your ideology has not worked anywhere ever then maybe its a bad one.
    If a libertarian really wanted what they claim they would vote ULA. The extremes have more on common with each other than the center.


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    #81
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Soldie wrote: »
    It's hardly surprising that there's little-to-no appetite for libertarians in the Dáil when we have such a pervasive level of entitlement in this country. To tell the same electorate who shrieked and howled at the supposedly "savage" cuts made by Fianna Fáil that you wish to drastically reduce the competencies of the state wouldn't win much favour.

    Nevertheless, CiaranC's point wasn't that libertarianism doesn't exist in Irish politics; it was just an aimless rant with little substance.

    Indeed. FG not getting more votes because of PS job cuts and they know somebody in the PS, a perfect example.

    I don't think the Irish electorate needs to embrace libertarianism or anything like that [/shudders], just some common sense of the national situation, not how it affects me!

    There's loads of reasons not to vote FG as I didn't, that isn't one of them!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #82
    Rubik.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rubik.


    Soldie wrote: »
    It's hardly surprising that there's little-to-no appetite for libertarians in the Dáil when we have such a pervasive level of entitlement in this country. To tell the same electorate who shrieked and howled at the supposedly "savage" cuts made by Fianna Fáil that you wish to drastically reduce the competencies of the state wouldn't win much favour.

    No, I don't think that's the reason why we don't have any libertarians in The Dail. If libertarianism was explained to the average Irish voter, and it would have explained because the vast majority of them wouldn't even have heard of the term, it would be dismissed as nonsense.


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    #83
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    20Cent wrote: »
    Bemoaning minimum wage, SW benefits and the public sector forgetting that the biggest recipients of state aid are actually the businesses they support so much. People who do actual work are lazy and overpaid while they will argue vehemently for industries such as the financial markets which would not exist except for the bailouts they received.
    It is a childish, unrealistic and unpopular ideology.

    I have a question, if I can make my way past all of those straw men: Which libertarians have supported corporate welfare? Let's hear it.
    If your ideology has not worked anywhere ever then maybe its a bad one.
    If a libertarian really wanted what they claim they would vote ULA. The extremes have more on common with each other than the center.

    I find that quite hilarious, coming from a socialist. Ask yourself who created all the wealth that you wish to redistribute in a ham-fisted attempt at "fairness". It wasn't magicked out of thin air by Boyd Barrett and his cohorts. Also, spare me the "I'm not a socialist" retort; you defend it doggedly at every turn.


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    #84
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Rubik. wrote: »
    No, I don't think that's the reason why we don't have any libertarians in The Dail. If libertarianism was explained to the average Irish voter, and it would have explained because the vast majority of them wouldn't even have heard of the term, it would be dismissed as nonsense.

    And yet you don't appear to be able to articulate why that may be.


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    #85
    Fitzerb
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Fitzerb


    whiteonion wrote: »
    Ireland's "open market economy" has always been a failure from start to finish. This country's boom was funded from EU money being extracted from net contributors. Social democratic policies are much better for the economy. That is why countries such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Germany are fairing much better than Ireland, UK and USA.

    Are you serious. Comparing our economy to Germany. We have the population of Manchester. We are a pimple in Europe.


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    #86
    Fitzerb
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Fitzerb


    rantie wrote: »
    What do the dole claimants of Donegal want to be equal to? Republicans? Democrats? Each other?
    This is all nonsense.
    What hope have we in the 21st century when the main political parties call themselves by names which no longer have any meaning unless you are one hundred and ten years old and still fighting the civil war.
    Could we please all come into the present and address the real problems we face. (Sovereign default, collapsing government agencies, health service that is not fit for purpose.)
    For f***'s sake the National Roads Authority were refused funding by the banks last week! We are going bankrupt people. WAKE UP!

    Can you show us the link to this information


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    #87
    Fitzerb
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Fitzerb


    CiaranC wrote: »
    Your politics are openly, blatantly, obviously and demonstrably a failure, and have destroyed this country, despite your constantly trying to pin this on some imaginary phantom bogeyman "left". These wackos couldnt do half as much damage as you and your ilk, with your politics of self serving greed have done. Time to put away Atlas Shrugged, read another book and pick an new online persona. I see youve changed your username so you are halfway there.


    That attitude you display would be a significant reason why people dont lister to your argument. its the " I know it all and dont disagree with me".
    No debate allowed attitude is what is displayed with the post


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    #88
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    Ha Ha look you're trying to claim that the lefites will lead us to penury when you and your ilk have already achieved that. Gas altogether


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    #89
    Fitzerb
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Fitzerb


    joulter wrote: »
    arthur morgan retired to spend more time running his business i think


    I think he has a get a way business......... I mean the fast car get a away type


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    #90
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    So are the libertarians on this thread - the only two in Ireland - in favour of State Education. Or not?
    Three, and no, state education has ruined the prospects of the young people of our country by bestowing them with two days a week of religion and the Irish language, neither of which prepare them for the modern European workplace.

    Private charter schools that can actually hire and fire teachers on the basis of merit are the way forward but I know that such a progressively free proposal will gain no traction in Ireland due to its inherent unfairness.

    end of off topic comments; I felt compelled to contest the attack on free market liberals based on the fact that there aren't too many of us.

    /On topic, any ULA alliance will implode as soon as we get busy with business again. Bizarre, excessive, left wing protest only, nothing more will ever materialise out of that movement, and we all know it. No electorate is that easily fooled.


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    #91
    doopa
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭doopa


    RE the existence of libertarians - there may be two purported ones on this thread - but like anarchists - do they agree on the definition?

    Back on topic - I personally can't see the ULA merging successfully in the long term. Anyone care to point to successful examples in other Western Countries (Respect UK is the closest example and hasn't been a resounding success)? Labour will mop up the successful elements of the ULA and bring them into the mainstream fold offering them positions and power leaving the extremists to fight it out over insignificant philosphical technical debates about an ideology from the 19th Century that offers no realistic aid to our current problems. We need ideologies for the 21st and unfortunately none of the parties has any.

    I feel sorry for the likes of Joe Higgins who is likely to be the loser in the fallout from the eventual split.


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